Were Jews Born or Made?

Dave L · Sep 10, 2018

If you study the history of the Jews in the bible, any not circumcised were cut off from the tribe. Originally the tribe amounted to Abraham's 300+ servants and Ishmael, his only blood relative.

Jacob inherited all of these through Isaac, plus acquired more while serving his uncle Laban.

The number of Hebrews, also called Israel in Egypt needed the entire land of Goshen to live in.

They came out 400+ years later a mixed multitude and continued that way, and were considered Abraham's covenant seed through circumcision.

In Esther's day many became Jews after the Jews slaughtered thousands of Haman's followers.

““When a foreigner lives with you and wants to observe the Passover to the LORD, all his males must be circumcised, and then he may approach and observe it, and he will be like one who is born in the land—but no uncircumcised person may eat of it.” (Exodus 12:48)

“The same law will apply to the person who is native-born and to the foreigner who lives among you.”” (Exodus 12:49)

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14) This would nullify the status of one born in the land.

Doctor.Sphinx · Sep 10, 2018

So was it then as it is now - by faith? But faith led to obedience, of which circumcision was a minor (but essential) part?

WESTOZZIE · Sep 10, 2018

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Therefore Jews are born true Jews through faith in Jesus the Messiah.

Dave L · Sep 10, 2018

Doctor.Sphinx said:
So was it then as it is now - by faith? But faith led to obedience, of which circumcision was a minor (but essential) part?

Most were unbelievers. But God used them to protect the lineage Christ would come through. God removed the unbelievers (Romans 11) when Christ arrived.

rockytopva · Sep 10, 2018

If you were to convert to Judaism and became a Jew before Christ you would have had to of played by the OT rules...

And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. - Exodus 12:48

Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. - Exodus 22:21

33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. - Leviticus 10

There were then Jews who were born Jews, and some made Jews by conversion. There again, all would be required to live by the OT law before Christ.

Doctor.Sphinx · Sep 10, 2018

rockytopva said:
If you were to convert to Judaism and became a Jew before Christ you would have had to of played by the OT rules...

And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. - Exodus 12:48

Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. - Exodus 22:21

33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. - Leviticus 10

There were then Jews who were born Jews, and some made Jews by conversion. There again, all would be required to luve by the OT law before Christ.

But are we talking Jews, or true Jews? Because even the Pharisees tried to claim Abraham as their father - by birth and obedience to the law - but Jesus called them hypocrites, as they had not the faith of Abraham.

Dave L · Sep 10, 2018

rockytopva said:
If you were to convert to Judaism and became a Jew before Christ you would have had to of played by the OT rules...

And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. - Exodus 12:48

Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. - Exodus 22:21

33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. - Leviticus 10

There were then Jews who were born Jews, and some made Jews by conversion. There again, all would be required to live by the OT law before Christ.

But not being circumcised invalidated any who were born in the land, making them gentiles.

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14)

John the Ex-Baptist · Sep 10, 2018

Dave L said:
Most were unbelievers. But God used them to protect the lineage Christ would come through. God removed the unbelievers (Romans 11) when Christ arrived.

I agree with your statement @Dave L but would also add that, not only was it to protect the lineage of the Messiah, but also to convey the promise of God of eternal life to His Faithful Servant. Christ being the only Human ever to be faithful and obedient to the Law of God, and sole rightful Heir to the promise. Thankfully, through the Gospel we have been united with Christ through baptism, and are co-heirs with Him because our lives are now found in Him by faith.

Galatians 3:15–29 (ESV)
15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. 19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Doctor.Sphinx · Sep 10, 2018

Dave L said:
But not being circumcised invalidated any who were born in the land, making them gentiles.

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14)

Of course. Circumcision was part of obedience. If you believed in God, you'd get circumcised (if you were a man), and make sure all your males were circumcised.

Believing and not circumcising (or deliberately disobeying the other laws), wouldn't make sense - it would be evidence of unbelief.

Dave L · Sep 10, 2018

Doctor.Sphinx said:
Of course. Circumcision was part of obedience. If you believed in God, you'd get circumcised (if you were a man), and make sure all your males were circumcised.

Believing and not circumcising (or deliberately disobeying the other laws), wouldn't make sense.

I agree, but the point is Jews were not born, they were made through circumcision. And women through their circumcised fathers or husbands.

rockytopva · Sep 10, 2018

Doctor.Sphinx said:
But are we talking Jews, or true Jews? Because even the Pharisees tried to claim Abraham as their father - by birth and obedience to the law - but Jesus called them hypocrites, as they had not the faith of Abraham.

We are talking about the Jewish religion. The Messianic Jews are Jewish people in the Christian religion. Once saved you are of the Christian religion, and no longer of the Jewish religion. Engrafted as a Jew, but not of Judaism. Therefore the apostle says...

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. - Galatians 5:2

Doctor.Sphinx · Sep 10, 2018

Dave L said:
I agree, but the point is Jews were not born, they were made through circumcision. And women through their circumcised fathers or husbands.

I still think it was by faith. Rahab believed, and her father wasn't Jewish, and she didn't have a husband at conversion.

She would still have had to circumcise her males though, if she had any - this is part of obedience. (Probably easier to be a guy in that situation, I reckon).

Dave L · Sep 10, 2018

Doctor.Sphinx said:
I still think it was by faith. Rahab believed, and her father wasn't Jewish, and she didn't have a husband at conversion.

She would still have had to circumcise her males though, if she had any - this is part of obedience. (Probably easier to be a guy in that situation, I reckon).

This is why there was a believing remnant among the wicked in Israel. They were saved even if they did not receive circumcision and remained gentiles.

Doctor.Sphinx · Sep 10, 2018

Dave L said:
This is why there was a believing remnant among the wicked in Israel. They were saved even if they did not receive circumcision and remained gentiles.

I'm not sure about this. Any believing remnant would have endeavoured to obey, and circumcision is a pretty easy part of obedience (only needs to be done once, and then there's no going back).

I'm not saying God couldn't save without circumcision, but why would anyone truly believe and not do it?

Dave L · Sep 10, 2018

Doctor.Sphinx said:
I'm not sure about this. Any believing remnant would have endeavoured to obey, and circumcision is a pretty easy part of obedience (only needs to be done once, and then there's no going back).

I'm not saying God couldn't save without circumcision, but why would anyone truly believe and not do it?

The law was for the wicked under threat of death. Believers were already saved evidenced by their faith. But if not circumcised, they remained gentiles. We see believers beyond Israel and circumcision beginning with Abel, Job, Melchizedek etc.

Doctor.Sphinx · Sep 10, 2018

Dave L said:
The law was for the wicked under threat of death. Believers were already saved evidenced by their faith. But if not circumcised, they remained gentiles. We see believers beyond Israel and circumcision beginning with Abel, Job, Melchizedek etc.

Ah, okay. I was meaning believers who came to Israel.

Dave-W · Sep 11, 2018

Dave L said:
The law was for the wicked under threat of death. Believers were already saved evidenced by their faith. But if not circumcised, they remained gentiles. We see believers beyond Israel and circumcision beginning with Abel, Job, Melchizedek etc.

Under the Mosaic covenant, you could not “be saved” without joining the Covenant and getting circumcised. That is why the Judaizers of Acts 15.1 were teaching as they did.

Doctor.Sphinx · Sep 11, 2018

Dave-W said:
Under the Mosaic covenant, you could not “be saved” without joining the Covenant and getting circumcised. That is why the Judaizers of Acts 15.1 were teaching as they did.

Wasn't it always about faith? Circumcision was just a one of the first steps of obedience (from faith) for males who hadn't already been done at birth. Females could have the same faith, but the obedience simply looked (slightly) different.

In the same way, Jesus could say of those Pharisees who outwardly kept the laws, but inwardly were unbelievers, that they couldn't rely on claiming descent from Abraham. This in turn gets into the circumcision of the heart thing, which God also commanded in the Old Testament.

Deut 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.

St. Helens · Sep 11, 2018

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF

FireDragon76 · Sep 16, 2018

Dave L said:
But not being circumcised invalidated any who were born in the land, making them gentiles.

I think that's overstating the case. They may not be conforming to Jewish religious law but that doesn't necessarily make them un-Jewish. There have been various periods of Jewish history where some Jews were not circumcised or observed traditional aspects of the Jewish religious law, for various reasons, yet they were still identified as Jews (indeed, I'd imagine many Jews that died in the holocaust were not necessarily observant Jews). Reformed Judaism has always been willing to question the place of circumcision and other customs in Jewish life.

Were Jews Born or Made?

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