Did Jesus Keep the Letter of the Law, the Spirit of the Law or both?

A71 said:

Well in absolute terms I think you are wrong here. God did have two standards of righteousness, as the righteousness of the Law is a different thing to the righteousness without the Law. Until we have resolved this, further discussion is moot.

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The Law was given as instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness, not as instructions for how to become righteous. For example, the Law reveals that it is in accordance with God's righteousness to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. However, in Romans 1:5 we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so the same grace and faith by which we are declared to be righteous also requires us to therefore practice righteousness, and indeed those who do not follow God's instructions found in His Law for how to practice righteousness and not children of God (1 John 3:10).

There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others, so the Law was primarily given to teach us how to express God's character traits, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. When we have a character trait, then we will express it though our actions, so when God gives us His righteousness and declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His Law. Jesus expressed the character traits of the Father through His actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is what it should look like when he is living in us. Our sanctification is about being made to be like Christ, to have and to express the same character traits.

The existence of righteousness and sinfulness requires there to be a standard of what is and is not righteous or sinful, and this standard is God's Law. If the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness changed when the New Covenant was made, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but God's righteousness and all of His righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:142, 160). So far example, it has always been and will always be in accordance with God's righteousness to help the poor no matter how many covenants God makes, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to practice righteousness and to will always be valid no matter which covenant we are under. In 2 Peter 2:6-8, Sodom and Gomorrah were judged because of their Lawless deeds, so they were under God's Law and were obligated to obey it even though they weren't even in a covenant relationship with Him. So they didn't get a choice of whether they wanted to be under God's Law and neither do we. God has give us knowledge of this standard through His Law, so the choice that we do get to make is whether or not we are going to repent and obey by faith.

In Romans 3:20-22, Paul said that the Law and the Prophets testified to the righteousness of God being through faith in Christ for all who believe, so it is something that has always been there, but was now being made manifest, and righteousness through obedience to the Law has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of its purpose and of God's character. It makes God out to be primarily interested in our outward obedience when He has always been primarily interest in us growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. God has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeying Him while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 1:10-20, 29:13).

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge because they didn't understand that the righteousness of God comes only through faith in Christ, so they failed to obtain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the Law and pursued it as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing it as though righteousness were by faith, for Christ is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been outwardly keeping the Law, but without having a focus on growing in a relationship with Christ, so he had been missing the whole point and counted it all as rubbish. So the righteousness that comes from the Law only has the appearance of righteousness if it is not rooted in faith in Christ.

The righteousness of the Law and the righteousness of Christ are qualitatively totally different things.

An analogy, and it is just an analogy, is that of say elementary algebraic principles, and advanced mathematical concepts in engineering and design.

One deals with very basic principles, rudimentary things that are essential for going forward, and the other is the implementation of complex ideas to create complex things.

The Law was a kind of boot camp for people with learning difficulties. The fact that at the end of it they knew their 12 times tables is not a sign of advancement, anymore than it is the end goal of an education.

Likewise the Law is not the end goal of Christianity.

Soyeong said:

The Law was given as instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness, not as instructions for how to become righteous. For example, the Law reveals that it is in accordance with God's righteousness to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. However, in Romans 1:5 we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so the same grace and faith by which we are declared to be righteous also requires us to therefore practice righteousness, and indeed those who do not follow God's instructions found in His Law for how to practice righteousness and not children of God (1 John 3:10).

There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others, so the Law was primarily given to teach us how to express God's character traits, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. When we have a character trait, then we will express it though our actions, so when God gives us His righteousness and declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His Law. Jesus expressed the character traits of the Father through His actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is what it should look like when he is living in us. Our sanctification is about being made to be like Christ, to have and to express the same character traits.

The existence of righteousness and sinfulness requires there to be a standard of what is and is not righteous or sinful, and this standard is God's Law. If the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness changed when the New Covenant was made, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but God's righteousness and all of His righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:142, 160). So far example, it has always been and will always be in accordance with God's righteousness to help the poor no matter how many covenants God makes, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to practice righteousness and to will always be valid no matter which covenant we are under. In 2 Peter 2:6-8, Sodom and Gomorrah were judged because of their Lawless deeds, so they were under God's Law and were obligated to obey it even though they weren't even in a covenant relationship with Him. So they didn't get a choice of whether they wanted to be under God's Law and neither do we. God has give us knowledge of this standard through His Law, so the choice that we do get to make is whether or not we are going to repent and obey by faith.

In Romans 3:20-22, Paul said that the Law and the Prophets testified to the righteousness of God being through faith in Christ for all who believe, so it is something that has always been there, but was now being made manifest, and righteousness through obedience to the Law has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of its purpose and of God's character. It makes God out to be primarily interested in our outward obedience when He has always been primarily interest in us growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. God has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeying Him while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 1:10-20, 29:13).

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge because they didn't understand that the righteousness of God comes only through faith in Christ, so they failed to obtain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the Law and pursued it as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing it as though righteousness were by faith, for Christ is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been outwardly keeping the Law, but without having a focus on growing in a relationship with Christ, so he had been missing the whole point and counted it all as rubbish. So the righteousness that comes from the Law only has the appearance of righteousness if it is not rooted in faith in Christ.

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The

A71 said:

I think the point is that there are higher principles at stake, which really is Jesus' way of showing the inadequacy of the Law.

It is the same as there being a no-parking in the hospital ambulance bay rule, but your friend has a severed artery and you park there.

The injunction not to swear falsely by God is a very specific rule, and cannot be generalized.
It pertains to legal situations were you are the only witness, and therefore you invoke God as the second witness. God is simply making it clear that invoking him
Mendaciously will have catastrophic consequences

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If the Law were just about a list of do's and don'ts, then I would agree with you that it would be inadequate, however, it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles to live by of which the listed law are just examples, and which are the character traits of God. If we correctly understand a spiritual principle, then it will lead us to take actions that are examples of that principle, which will guide us in how to rightly live when we come across situations where the Law does not specifically prescribe or purohit what we should do. Likewise, God's righteousness is broader than the list of instructions for how to express that character trait, but those instructions can teach us a deeper understanding of that character trait.

A71 said:

The righteousness of the Law and the righteousness of Christ are qualitatively totally different things.

An analogy, and it is just an analogy, is that of say elementary algebraic principles, and advanced mathematical concepts in engineering and design.

One deals with very basic principles, rudimentary things that are essential for going forward, and the other is the implementation of complex ideas to create complex things.

The Law was a kind of boot camp for people with learning difficulties. The fact that at the end of it they knew their 12 times tables is not a sign of advancement, anymore than it is the end goal of an education.

Click to expand...

If Jesus expressed his righteousness through His actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, then I don't see how you can insist that they are two different things. Jesus did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced. Even if the righteousness of Christ were at a much higher standard, then it would at least be inclusive of everything in Mosaic Law.

Likewise the Law is not the end goal of Christianity.

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The end goal of Christianity is to be redeemed and made like Christ, to have and to express the same character traits, and to be in a relationship with God.

Paul makes it very clear throughout his epistles, and particularly in Romans, that the righteousness of faith is a different matter to the righteousness that comes by the Law. So, this is a very serious discussion, and as I am very busy I am worried I cannot do it justice. But I am very glad you have made a serious commitment to discuss it.

Romans 10
5 Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that “the person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that comes from faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say?

“The word is near you,
on your lips and in your heart”

Soyeong said:

If the Law were just about a list of do's and don'ts, then I would agree with you that it would be inadequate, however, it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles to live by of which the listed law are just examples, and which are the character traits of God. If we correctly understand a spiritual principle, then it will lead us to take actions that are examples of that principle, which will guide us in how to rightly live when we come across situations where the Law does not specifically prescribe or purohit what we should do. Likewise, God's righteousness is broader than the list of instructions for how to express that character trait, but those instructions can teach us a deeper understanding of that character trait.



If Jesus expressed his righteousness through His actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, then I don't see how you can insist that they are two different things. Jesus did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced. Even if the righteousness of Christ were at a much higher standard, then it would at least be inclusive of everything in Mosaic Law.



The end goal of Christianity is to be redeemed and made like Christ, to have and to express the same character traits, and to be in a relationship with God.

Click to expand...

A71 said:

Paul makes it very clear throughout his epistles, and particularly in Romans, that the righteousness of faith is a different matter to the righteousness that comes by the Law. So, this is a very serious discussion, and as I am very busy I am worried I cannot do it justice. But I am very glad you have made a serious commitment to discuss it.

Romans 10
5 Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that “the person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that comes from faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say?

“The word is near you,
on your lips and in your heart”

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Romans 10:4-10 (CJB)
For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts. 5 For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them. 6 Moreover, the righteousness grounded in trusting says:

“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend to heaven?’” —

that is, to bring the Messiah down — 7 or,

“‘Who will descend into Sh’ol?’” —

that is, to bring the Messiah up from the dead. 8 What, then, does it say?

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart.”—

that is, the word about trust which we proclaim, namely, 9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered. 10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance.
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It is inappropriate to translate Romans 10:4-10 as though Paul were contrasting what Moses said in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 with what Moses said in Deuteronomy 30:15-16, so the first word of Romans 10:6 can and should be translated as "moreover" rather than as "but". Paul was quoting Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in regard to our faith saying that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey, but that the word is near us, in our mouth and in our heart so that we can obey it, and in regard to what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord through faith. In Deuteronomy 30:15-16, Moses said that obedience to the Torah brings life and a blessing, which is the same as Romans 10:5 saying that the person who obeys the Torah will attain life, and life only comes through faith, so in both cases Paul was quoting Moses to speak about a righteousness that is grounded in the Torah that comes through faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal at which the Torah aims for righteousness for everyone who has faith.

The one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. In Hebrews 11:7, Noah was listed as an example of faith and in Genesis 6:8-9, it says that he found grace in the eyes of God and that he was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith in the same way as everyone else, especially all of the other examples listed in Hebrews 11 of people in the OT who had saving faith. God had no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming righteous through obedience to the Torah when a perfectly good means of righteousness by faith was already in place. So obedience to the Torah has never been about obtaining righteousness, but about expressing God righteousness that we have obtained through faith. Misunderstanding the goal of the Torah as being about obtaining righteousness is the reason why the Israelites failed to obtain righteousness in Romans 9:30-10:4.

There is no such thing as "the letter of the law" or "the Spirit of the Law". Nowhere to be found in the Bible. This is the closest thing. But the new covenant is of the Spirit. (no law)

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Saint Steven said:

There is no such thing as "the letter of the law" or "the Spirit of the Law". Nowhere to be found in the Bible. This is the closest thing. But the new covenant is of the Spirit. (no law)

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

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Did you see my post of this in response to A71? In 2 Corinthians 3:6, it is not contrasting different sets of laws, but rather it is contrasting the manner in which they are obeyed.

Soyeong said:

Did you see my post of this in response to A71? In 2 Corinthians 3:6, it is not contrasting different sets of laws, but rather it is contrasting the manner in which they are obeyed.

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Nope. Not sure what A71 is.
Although I think I remember discussing it with you.
The passage is comparing two covenants/ministries.
- The lasting ministry of the new covenant of the Spirit that brings life
- The transitory ministry of the letter that brought death and condemnation that has no glory now (which was engraved in letters in stone - the TCs)

The letter of the law is full compliance, no erring from the letter of what is written in the law
IE:
Thou shalt not covet. You must have no covetous/lustful/impure thoughts. Full stop!
You must love your neighbour as yourself. You must always love your neighbours. It is not loving your neighbour to grumble about them, think unkind thoughts about them, or to be unkind to them. You must at all times faultlessly love them. The letter of the law therefore kills.(2Cor3:6)

The Spirit of the law.
You in your heart want to obey God and live according to his ways/laws. You want to love others, you do not want to covet, however, in your flesh(which is weak) you will inevitably at times transgress the letter of what is written. But you are following after the Spirit of the law, for that is how you want to live, and generally live your life.

Archippus said:

..., however, in your flesh(which is weak) you will inevitably at times transgress the letter of what is written.

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In this life, but that will cease when we see Jesus [1 John 3:2].

You are having to juggle with the translation to get the meaning you want. There is no such thing as a "standard of righteousness". Where did you get this? What do you mean by it?

You are not really understanding Deuteronomy either.
The choice is between blessings and abundant life,
And curses and death.

Clearly the Law is curses and death.

Soyeong said:

Romans 10:4-10 (CJB)
For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts. 5 For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them. 6 Moreover, the righteousness grounded in trusting says:

“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend to heaven?’” —

that is, to bring the Messiah down — 7 or,

“‘Who will descend into Sh’ol?’” —

that is, to bring the Messiah up from the dead. 8 What, then, does it say?

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart.”—

that is, the word about trust which we proclaim, namely, 9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered. 10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance.
--------------

It is inappropriate to translate Romans 10:4-10 as though Paul were contrasting what Moses said in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 with what Moses said in Deuteronomy 30:15-16, so the first word of Romans 10:6 can and should be translated as "moreover" rather than as "but". Paul was quoting Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in regard to our faith saying that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey, but that the word is near us, in our mouth and in our heart so that we can obey it, and in regard to what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord through faith. In Deuteronomy 30:15-16, Moses said that obedience to the Torah brings life and a blessing, which is the same as Romans 10:5 saying that the person who obeys the Torah will attain life, and life only comes through faith, so in both cases Paul was quoting Moses to speak about a righteousness that is grounded in the Torah that comes through faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal at which the Torah aims for righteousness for everyone who has faith.

The one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. In Hebrews 11:7, Noah was listed as an example of faith and in Genesis 6:8-9, it says that he found grace in the eyes of God and that he was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith in the same way as everyone else, especially all of the other examples listed in Hebrews 11 of people in the OT who had saving faith. God had no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming righteous through obedience to the Torah when a perfectly good means of righteousness by faith was already in place. So obedience to the Torah has never been about obtaining righteousness, but about expressing God righteousness that we have obtained through faith. Misunderstanding the goal of the Torah as being about obtaining righteousness is the reason why the Israelites failed to obtain righteousness in Romans 9:30-10:4.

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A71 said:

You are having to juggle with the translation to get the meaning you want.

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I didn't just arbitrarily say that it should be translated as "moreover" because that is the meaning that I want, but rather I gave a number of good reasons for why that word choice would be more appropriate. If you disagree, then please explain how it would make sense for Paul to use what Moses said to counter what Moses said especially in consecutive verses. I also explained how Romans 10:5 and 10:6-8 are both essentially saying the same thing.

There is no such thing as a "standard of righteousness". Where did you get this? What do you mean by it?

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For example, in your mind you have a standard of blueness by which you use to determine whether or not something is a shade of blue. There existence of God's righteousness means that there needs to be some way to determine whether or not a particular action is in accordance with His righteousness, and this standard was revealed through God's Law. God can't judge the world for their sins without having some way to determine which actions are sinful.

You are not really understanding Deuteronomy either.
The choice is between blessings and abundant life,
And curses and death.

Clearly the Law is curses and death.

Click to expand...

God is not an unloving Father who gave the Law in order to curse His children, but rather He said it was given for our own good in order to bless us. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the curse is only for those who chase after other gods.

Yes, but a standard is a standard. It is universal, impartial, unequivocal. The law is not universal, it only applies to those under it.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

The Law is a curse, and it leads to death, because it is impossible to keep it in its entirety. The law was a punishment on Israel.

A71 said:

The Law is a curse, and it leads to death, because it is impossible to keep it in its entirety. .

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It astounds me, that many on the internet would disagree with the above. I wonder where their conviction of sin lies, the standard must be extremely low

The simple fact is Soyeong that the generation in the wilderness were abhorrent to God. No amount of legalism altered their status. Whether they obeyed the 613 laws or not was irrelevant; they were all condemned to die as nomads in anguish. Just like Moses, they were condemned for lack of faith. Think about that. Moses was faithful in all his house, he was the perfect lawgiver, he spoke with God face to face, but because of lack of faith, striking the rock, he was not allowed into the Promised Land. He symbolizes that entire generation.

The next generation were then refused admittance to Israel. Only once they had obeyed God and taken the land were they viewed as Israelites.

The point Moses was making in Moab, and which Paul explains, is that no amount of law observance, legalism, is of any value if you don't believe God.

Legalism is a fear mentality. God wants an anti-fear mentality, a heart and mind which loves.

You can obey the law til the cows come home, but if you do it out of fear of the consequences, but do not love God, so what? It does not make you righteous, you are simply acting in self-preservation.

The simple command in Moab was to love and obey God. Just love and obey.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Without being rooted and grounded in love, they simply were not Israelites.

Ephesians 3

14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth takes its name. 16 I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit, 17 and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, as you are being rooted and grounded in love. 18 I pray that you may have the power to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.