The origin of the Pre-trib rapture theory? Paul himself?

ewq1938

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1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept. This one sentence will be misunderstood and the idea that Christ could come at any time, even before the tribulation happens, is born. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spiritually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night



So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen right away instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.



2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".

The Bible makes it clear that there is no pre-tribulation rapture. The tribulation and the appearance of the Antichrist will come first before any rapture takes place. Scripture speaks of the same order of events elsewhere:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30


A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.


So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:

1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)


Again we see that certain events must happen first before a rapture takes place!
 

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1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept. This one sentence will be misunderstood and the idea that Christ could come at any time, even before the tribulation happens, is born. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spiritually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night



So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen right away instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.



2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".

The Bible makes it clear that there is no pre-tribulation rapture. The tribulation and the appearance of the Antichrist will come first before any rapture takes place. Scripture speaks of the same order of events elsewhere:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30


A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.


So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:

1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)


Again we see that certain events must happen first before a rapture takes place!
Your study is well thought out and I agree that there is no pre or mid tribulation rapture. I think this teaching came from satan himself for the antichrist will come first... and what is sad is that he will come declaring himself as the messiah and those who believe in the pre/mid trib rapture could possibly be deceived into worshiping him because they think he is coming to rapture them since they are suppose to be raptured before the tribulation period.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Furthermore to add to your study is the prophesy in Daniel and Revelation....both mention a scroll in which there were things spoken that were not to be revealed until the appointed time....which I am very curious as to what is written but I am confident that there is key revelations in it that will blow everyone's mind.
 
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ewq1938

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Your study is well thought out and I agree that there is no pre or mid tribulation rapture. I think this teaching came from satan himself for the antichrist will come first... and what is sad is that he will come declaring himself as the messiah and those who believe in the pre/mid trib rapture could possibly be deceived into worshiping him because they think he is coming to rapture them since they are suppose to be raptured before the tribulation period.


Is it not disturbing that they also tend to use the falling away passage as evidence that there is a pre-trib rapture? Chilling!
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Is it not disturbing that they also tend to use the falling away passage as evidence that there is a pre-trib rapture? Chilling!

Interesting question, a short read and definitely worth consideration and the timeline hinges on what "apostasia" means, the other contexts in which it is used etc...

51R8m7BDa3L.jpg


The Day of the Lord will not come unless the "falling away" comes first, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:3. What is this falling away? Is it apostasy, a spiritual departure from the faith, or is it an actual physical rapture? In this book, Dr. Andy Woods gives 10 reasons to believe it is a physical rapture.

About the Author
Andrew Marshall Woods left his law practice in Southern California to go into ministry full-time in 1998. After obtaining his PhD in Bible Exposition from Dallas Theological Seminary, he was a Full-Professor of Bible and Theology at the College Biblical Studies in Houston, TX (2009-2016). He is currently the president of Chafer Theological Seminary and senior pastor of Sugar Land Bible Church. Andy has a busy speaking schedule on a variety of topics at Christian conferences worldwide and has several published works.
 
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ewq1938

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Is it apostasy, a spiritual departure from the faith, or is it an actual physical rapture?

It is a departure from the faith. That's what the Greek word means. It does not nor cannot mean simply "traveling" elsewhere.
 
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Seville90210

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The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation lies here.

Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour of His coming in Matthew 24:36.

Daniel tells us from the beginning of the tribulation to the middle is 1260 days. Mid Trib rapture solved.

From the time of the Abomination of Desolation when you see the man of sin revealing himself as the A/C sits in the temple declaring himself to be God till the end of the tribulation is another 1260 days. (Personally I say it's 1335 days, Daniel 12:12). But anyways, the Post Trib rapture solved.

Plus you have to take into consideration what John saw in Revelation 19.

From Revelation 19:7-10, the Church is already seen in heaven partaking in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb before Jesus descends upon the earth.

From Revelation 19:11-16 we see the second coming.

Revelation 19:7-16 King James Version (KJV)
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.​

Since the church is already in heaven with Jesus celebrating the marriage supper of the Lamb before He descends at the second coming, it's not possible a Post Trib rapture can exist under the circumstance.


Now this is how Jesus describes His coming for His bride during the day of the rapture. It will happen when people on earth will be celebrating, partying, and getting married, in other words, a time of peace and safety outside the tribulation like it is now.

Matthew 24:36-42 New Living Translation (NLT)
36 “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.
37 “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. 38 In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. 39 People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes.
40 “Two men will be working together in the field; one will be taken, the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding flour at the mill; one will be taken, the other left.
42 “So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming.


Now this is how Jesus describes people's behavior when He comes to earth at the second coming described in Luke 21. People are terrified, having heart attacks of what's happening on earth.

Luke 21:25-27 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
A very distinct contract, two very different comings Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:36-42 and Luke 21:25-27.

In summary, Jesus comes for the church when there's peace and safety on earth at a time when people are enjoying life. Matthew 24:38
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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It is a departure from the faith. That's what the Greek word means. It does not nor cannot mean simply "traveling" elsewhere.

It really is a good read. The bit I quote below is just scratching the surface. Does it conclusively prove that the falling away is not just spiritual apostasy? Perhaps not, but balance of probability based on the wider examination of the use of the same language in other passages indicates to me that the "catching away" of the Church is the far more likely interpretation.

"The advent of the coming lawless one or Antichrist will take place at a specified point in time and instantaneously concurrently with the opening of the first seal judgment (Rev. 6:1-2). The definite article also before the apostasia indicates that in the same way the apostasia will also take place instantaneously. Such an instantaneous manifestation does not fit well with the notion of a spiritual departure, which typically transpires gradually over an elongated process. Spiritual departures are not instantaneous events."

The Falling Away
Chapter 3

Btw. I'm not a forum debate type, I just share what I've got and if anyone is interested they can follow it up. The way world events are going, I might see you soon to talk it over anyway ;-
 
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ewq1938

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It really is a good read.

It seeks to alter a fixed definition of the Greek language in order to support a non-biblical doctrine. That is not what I call a "good read".
 
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Is it not disturbing that they also tend to use the falling away passage as evidence that there is a pre-trib rapture? Chilling!
Yes...it wasn't my pastor or the teaching from my Sunday school class that revealed this truth to me...because they taught the pre-trib rapture...it was when I was in my early 20's that I started reading the Bible for myself and before each reading I asked the Holy Spirit to bring revelation knowledge of it to my understanding....also would pray for the hidden wisdom of God....so when I read Revelation the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and I saw the truth...which He also lead me to study Daniel and Isaiah as well.....it just counters the whole concept of pre-trib rapture....I thank God for the Holy Spirit whom Jesus called the Spirit of Truth that He guides me and leads me into all truth.
 
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Heart2Soul

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In summary, Jesus comes for the church when there's peace and safety on earth at a time when people are enjoying life. Matthew 24:38
Well we are definitely safe for now then because there is no peace on earth at this time....
 
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ewq1938

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Yes...it wasn't my pastor or the teaching from my Sunday school class that revealed this truth to me...because they taught the pre-trib rapture...it was when I was in my early 20's that I started reading the Bible for myself and before each reading I asked the Holy Spirit to bring revelation knowledge of it to my understanding....also would pray for the hidden wisdom of God....so when I read Revelation the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and I saw the truth...which He also lead me to study Daniel and Isaiah as well.....it just counters the whole concept of pre-trib rapture....I thank God for the Holy Spirit whom Jesus called the Spirit of Truth that He guides me and leads me into all truth.


Wow, that is almost identical to my own story of how I came to understand this topic....literally was in my early 20's as well and as a child grew up in a pre-trib church though I didn't fully understand that it was teaching pre-trib but I knew they taught he could come at any moment and that seemed weird to me.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Wow, that is almost identical to my own story of how I came to understand this topic....literally was in my early 20's as well and as a child grew up in a pre-trib church though I didn't fully understand that it was teaching pre-trib but I knew they taught he could come at any moment and that seemed weird to me.
That is cool.....at least it confirms to me that I am not the only one! lol!
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Your study is well thought out and I agree that there is no pre or mid tribulation rapture. I think this teaching came from satan himself for the antichrist will come first... and what is sad is that he will come declaring himself as the messiah and those who believe in the pre/mid trib rapture could possibly be deceived into worshiping him because they think he is coming to rapture them since they are suppose to be raptured before the tribulation period.
As a believer in the rapture I also believe that a 7 year tribulation comes 1st that the antichrist comes and the temple gets rebuilt. The two witnesses will show up so if there be no rapture that would not alter the other beliefs. The antichrist being revealed is the start of the the 70th week of Daniel that being confirming a covenant with the many for 1 week. There are many reasons I believe in the rapture but if I am wrong I certainly am not going to accept the antichrist.
 
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Heart2Soul

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As a believer in the rapture I also believe that a 7 year tribulation comes 1st that the antichrist comes and the temple gets rebuilt. The two witnesses will show up so if there be no rapture that would not alter the other beliefs. The antichrist being revealed is the start of the the 70th week of Daniel that being confirming a covenant with the many for 1 week. There are many reasons I believe in the rapture but if I am wrong I certainly am not going to accept the antichrist.
That is good to hear! :oldthumbsup:
 
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Choose Wisely

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And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!

So you're telling me that Christ only comes without warning to those that are deceived and in darkness. Not true.

The truth is He only comes as a thief to those who are in darkness at the DAY OF THE LORD. The day of the Lord begins with the wrath of God. He tells believers to look up, your redemption draws nigh. They are not in darkness and they know to look up.........He is coming.

But what does Christ also say?

Matt 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You are confusing the tribulation period........The 1st 6 seals to the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord begins with the wrath of God which starts at the 7th seal.


Christ will come without warning.........and in an hour that you think not, prior to the tribulation. YOU SEE, IT'S ALREADY HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT THE GOODMAN WILL NOT KNOW WHEN HE IS COMING........BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. But when he comes prior to the wrath of God those not in darkness will know he is coming.

Learn the parable of the fig tree.
 
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DavidPT

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The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation lies here.

Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour of His coming in Matthew 24:36.

Daniel tells us from the beginning of the tribulation to the middle is 1260 days. Mid Trib rapture solved.

From the time of the Abomination of Desolation when you see the man of sin revealing himself as the A/C sits in the temple declaring himself to be God till the end of the tribulation is another 1260 days. (Personally I say it's 1335 days, Daniel 12:12). But anyways, the Post Trib rapture solved.

Plus you have to take into consideration what John saw in Revelation 19.

From Revelation 19:7-10, the Church is already seen in heaven partaking in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb before Jesus descends upon the earth.

From Revelation 19:11-16 we see the second coming.

Revelation 19:7-16 King James Version (KJV)
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.​

Since the church is already in heaven with Jesus celebrating the marriage supper of the Lamb before He descends at the second coming, it's not possible a Post Trib rapture can exist under the circumstance.


Now this is how Jesus describes His coming for His bride during the day of the rapture. It will happen when people on earth will be celebrating, partying, and getting married, in other words, a time of peace and safety outside the tribulation like it is now.

Matthew 24:36-42 New Living Translation (NLT)
36 “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.
37 “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. 38 In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. 39 People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes.
40 “Two men will be working together in the field; one will be taken, the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding flour at the mill; one will be taken, the other left.
42 “So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming.


Now this is how Jesus describes people's behavior when He comes to earth at the second coming described in Luke 21. People are terrified, having heart attacks of what's happening on earth.

Luke 21:25-27 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
A very distinct contract, two very different comings Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:36-42 and Luke 21:25-27.

In summary, Jesus comes for the church when there's peace and safety on earth at a time when people are enjoying life. Matthew 24:38



You have some pretty good arguments here actually, yet I still disagree there is a Pretrib or a Midtrib rapture. Maybe someone can go through all of your arguments with you one by one. I'm not up to the task atm(busy with things around the house), otherwise I would give it a go. For now though, I can at least try and address one of your arguments.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



Verse 38 is obviously referring to verse 36. Verse 36 is also referring to---This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled---Heaven and earth shall pass away


Do you also apply verse 36 and those things in verse 34 and 35, to a Pretrib or Midtrib rapture as well?


Also, in verse 37----so shall also the coming of the Son of man be---this too is referring to verse 38, even says so in verse 39. But it's also referring to verse 36 and those things from verse 34 and 35 that I listed above.
 
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BABerean2

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Learn the parable of the fig tree.

Mat_21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.

.
 
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So you're telling me that Christ only comes without warning to those that are deceived and in darkness. Not true.


There are warning signs of the general time. No one knows the hour so we watch for the signs Paul spoke of, and in Rev 11 we know that the day the two prophets resurrect Jesus will return...don't know the hour but that's a huge sign to be ready and watching for him so he won't surprise the ones ready and watching.
 
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