Sexual Chastity and Liberals

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dreadnought

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The Anglicans have their own version of this issue.

Neither you nor I can bend an entire denomination to our will. Each of us must learn to be faithful in whatever circumstances we find ourselves.
The Lord can use us if we let him.
 
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dreadnought

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I wonder if celibacy can become a source of pride? I am celibate for the record. I do not desire nor want a future relationship.

However, there are many benefits to a Christian in learning to love another and both of them serving and praying as a unit. They learn tolerance, so many things a single Christian can only learn at a slower pace and through more trials.

Even in a not so ideal marraige it can be an impetous to make someone cling to the Lord.
Marriage can be a source of pride. There are married people who think they are superior to those who aren't married.
 
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Sketcher

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I'm not sure I agree. Growing as a Christian is a process. I don't think it is helpful to start people off on that process with a list of things God despises; on the whole, I think it's better to start people off with things that will draw them closer to God; developing a prayer life, learning to be part of a Christian community, beginning to read the Scriptures for themselves. It's my experience that as they grow, God will convict them about what they need convicting about.

I have honestly never, ever met a gay person who hasn't heard that Christians believe they're going to hell. I don't need to tell them that. I need to tell them that that's not actually what God wants for them, and that there is another way; and helping them start on that way. Once they have a relationship with God, I can trust God to be at work in that. I don't need to be condemnatory.
Out of curiosity, how does Luke 14:27-33 fit in? How do you set people's expectations for what they will need to give up and take up in order to follow Jesus?
 
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TuxAme

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And how many people are you pastorally responsible for, that you speak with such vast personal experience?
I'm responsible for everyone that I meet, as should any person claiming Christian faith. If someone says, "such and such isn't a sin", but it is, I have a responsibility to correct them. If someone says, "I know that this is a sin, but I'm struggling with it", I offer them my support. You gave off the impression that you didn't desire to tell people that they're in sin (appealing to, they've already heard...), so I offered correction there as well.

I'm not saying that I'd tell people they don't need to change; quite the opposite. What I'm saying is that starting a baby Christian off with a list of demands they don't yet feel competent to meet isn't helpful. (After all, if someone were to hand you a list of your sins today, and tell you that to be a Christian, you must have them all sorted by tomorrow, how would you feel?) That way often leads to despair and hopelessness. It's better to encourage what's good, to offer a little correction at a time as I discern is appropriate and helpful for this person, rather than to go in with a predetermined list of what I expect this person to change immediately. It just doesn't work like that for most people.
I'm not saying that someone has to have everything sorted out right away, because I still have my own struggles and know that it's not realistic. You seemed to suggest that you would rather avoid the issue altogether, leaving it alone and letting that person sort it out on their own whenever they "get around to it", and I saw it as problematic.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Matthew 19:21-22
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

It doesn't sound like Christ met people with a soft approach. He did meet them with the demands that follows the commitment of becoming a Christian.
 
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Dave-W

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First, I wouldn't call it "supernatural."

Second, you ignored the part of my statement stating "if one is in control of their passion."
First: Paul used the word charisma for gift in 1 Cor 7, speaking of celibacy. That is the same word he used in chapter 12 to describe healings, prophecy and miracles.

Second: it depends HOW one is in control of their passions; by the Spirit or a work of the flesh.
 
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Not David

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There are equal risks with both. Especially when children are added to the mix.

However, when a couple serve the Lord together there is an advantage that the other can divert attention in turmoil back to the Lord where individually a person could be at a loss for longer.

Ecclesiastes 4:10
A single person isn't necessarily lonely, I'm sure Paul wasn't.
 
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dreadnought

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First: Paul used the word charisma for gift in 1 Cor 7, speaking of celibacy. That is the same word he used in chapter 12 to describe healings, prophecy and miracles.

Second: it depends HOW one is in control of their passions; by the Spirit or a work of the flesh.
First, I am taking Paul at face value without reading anything into it.

Second, I don't remember Paul saying it depended on HOW one is in control of their passions.
 
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Sam91

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I'm saying it's a process. I can trust God to be at work in that process. I don't have to try to control it.
Yes but first they need to be presented with the full (or at least correct one) gospel. What you seem to be advocating sounds more like society than biblical.

We have the Holy Spirit empowering us to live the Christian life. What about when they fall away because they are following a process but not relying on God to do it because they are tackling one sin at a time, rather than being reborn at the beginning and God doing it in them.
 
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Paidiske

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You need to work on your perception of what constitutes the Christian faith, I think your lack of a holistic understading of the faith is quite stunning.

There is a reason catechumens were teached the faith prior to their baptism in the early church and still does so in the Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox Church.

Ethics cannot be separated from a life in Christ. There is one faith, one Lord and creed. The faith is metaphysical and should be the cornerstone of any believers actions and life as a whole. It cannot be fractured as to only apply to parts of our lives.
It a package deal.

First, no need for the personal attacks.

Second, I am not saying anything different to what you're saying. The early church often had a catechumenate of several years; so why is it so extraordinary that I'm saying people might not have everything sorted on day one now? People take time to grow.

Out of curiosity, how does Luke 14:27-33 fit in? How do you set people's expectations for what they will need to give up and take up in order to follow Jesus?

We offer God our whole selves and our whole lives; but none of us knows, when we begin, what that will look like. I certainly didn't!

I'm responsible for everyone that I meet, as should any person claiming Christian faith.

I disagree; or at least, I'm not responsible for the random atheist in the street in the same way as I'm responsible for someone who places him or herself under my ministry.

If someone says, "such and such isn't a sin", but it is, I have a responsibility to correct them. If someone says, "I know that this is a sin, but I'm struggling with it", I offer them my support. You gave off the impression that you didn't desire to tell people that they're in sin (appealing to, they've already heard...), so I offered correction there as well.

We're talking in the abstract about pastoral decisions which need to be made for real people. On the whole, in real life, I have found that I don't need to tell gay people about sexual sin; they know all too well. For them the pastoral focus often needs to be on offering hope.

I'm not saying that someone has to have everything sorted out right away, because I still have my own struggles and know that it's not realistic. You seemed to suggest that you would rather avoid the issue altogether, leaving it alone and letting that person sort it out on their own whenever they "get around to it", and I saw it as problematic.

I have found, on the whole, as a gross generalisation, that this is not an issue I need to focus on. That's not the same as letting someone sort it out on their own if they want or need help. But - for example - I have a young gay man who's asked to come and see me next week. From the conversation we've had I expect he'll ask me to hear his confession. I rather suspect that if the first time I'd met him, I'd lectured him about the evils of his sex life, he wouldn't now trust me enough to approach me for that conversation; but because I've interacted with him in a way which puts hope before condemnation, now that conversation is possible.

And that's where the possibility of God's grace comes in! So I am very anxious not to push people away, but rather to interact with them in a way which is hospitable and which always leaves room for God to be at work.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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The Lord taught us to be sexually chaste, but liberals seem to be promoting a message of sexual permissiveness. What do you think the Lord thinks of this?

If we study our Bible and have the Holy Spirit within us we should know that it is wrong.

Although if weak, at times the flesh will override the Spirit. As we get older we learn that there will usually be a price to pay.

M-Bob
 
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dreadnought

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If we study our Bible and have the Holy Spirit within us we should know that it is wrong.

Although if weak, at times the flesh will override the Spirit. As we get older we learn that there will usually be a price to pay.

M-Bob
I am less concerned with the homosexuals than I am with the pastors who are saying there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.
 
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Sam91

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A single person isn't necessarily lonely, I'm sure Paul wasn't.

Yes, I am not lonely, nor do I want a relationship. I am happy to remain alone forever and starting to feel like it might be what the Lord expects me to do. I enjoy the celibate life.

It does not stop me seeing the benefits in others and rejoicing in what the Lord instituted. I in no way see being celibate for life as more fitting for the Christian walk. There are challenges unique to it and I'm not talking about desires.

There is less opportunity to practice traits we are commanded to have. It is easy to be harmonious with people that we only need to see during scheduled hours. There isn't someone who can see that your prayer time is a little lacking in zeal. There isn't someone seeing that your focussing on the bills and stressing about it instead of trusting in Him. A husband/wife can divert the attention back quicker and save sin. James 5:20
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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First, no need for the personal attacks.

Second, I am not saying anything different to what you're saying. The early church often had a catechumenate of several years; so why is it so extraordinary that I'm saying people might not have everything sorted on day one now? People take time to grow.

If I came of as engaging in personal attacks then I regret and I'm sorry.
I think we may disagree about the process of catechesis in relation with baptism.

I believe new Christians should undergo proper catechesis for a year prior to being baptized. This is in accordance to the early church and the apostolic tradition of the church.
We should prepare them for the whole deal of being a Christian with all pros and cons there is.

Perhaps we don't disagree at all about this, I hope we don't. Please fill me in on how you think :)

I'm strongly against "drop in baptisms" so to speak. Quick baptisms without the proper knowledge of the candidate is dishonest to all parties involved.
 
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Hank77

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Introducing people to the Lord is great. I am seeing pastors making a point of going in front of their congregations and stating there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.
So that's what this is about. Why didn't you just say so. I've never heard any pastor say that so I can't help you with that one. Those pastors would have been Baptist, Pentecostal, and Non-Denominational in my case.
 
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hedrick

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Liberal actually aren’t more permissive. The priorities of liberals and conservatives in sexual issues are different.

Conservatives care about the official status of sexual partners: are they married? Are they the right gender? Liberals are more worried about informed consent and the quality of the relationship. The current concerns about abuse of women and children came from the liberal side. Conservatives traditionally place a higher priority on maintaining the authority of the husband and avoiding an open break like divorce. It’s generally liberals trying to stop abuses of kids by adults, e.g. by strengthening laws against child brides.

I’m comfortable with the liberal emphasis. I think it’s consistent with Jesus’ priorities.
 
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dreadnought

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So that's what this is about. Why did you just say so. I've never heard any pastor say that so I can't help you with that one. Those pastors would have been Baptist, Pentecostal, and Non-Denominational in my case.
You ought to join the United Methodist Church and move out to the California-Nevada Conference. In February the United Methodist Church is scheduled to address this and perhaps split into two churches.
 
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dreadnought

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Liberal actually aren’t more permissive. The priorities of liberals and conservatives in sexual issues are different.

Conservatives care about the official status of sexual partners: are they married? Are they the right gender? Liberals are more worried about informed consent and the quality of the relationship. The current concerns about abuse of women and children came from the liberal side. Conservatives traditionally place a higher priority on maintaining the authority of the husband and avoiding an open break like divorce. It’s generally liberals trying to stop abuses of kids by adults, e.g. by strengthening laws against child brides.

I’m comfortable with the liberal emphasis. I think it’s consistent with Jesus’ priorities.
Liberals promote the sin of homosexuality, do they not?
 
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dreadnought

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Liberal actually aren’t more permissive. The priorities of liberals and conservatives in sexual issues are different.

Conservatives care about the official status of sexual partners: are they married? Are they the right gender? Liberals are more worried about informed consent and the quality of the relationship. The current concerns about abuse of women and children came from the liberal side. Conservatives traditionally place a higher priority on maintaining the authority of the husband and avoiding an open break like divorce. It’s generally liberals trying to stop abuses of kids by adults, e.g. by strengthening laws against child brides.

I’m comfortable with the liberal emphasis. I think it’s consistent with Jesus’ priorities.

Liberals promote the sin of homosexuality, do they not?
In my church conference, liberals certainly are promoting homosexuality. You know as well as I do that it is splitting the United Methodist Church.
 
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