JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. It is astonishing that Paul, the earliest Christian writer, does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul implies here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.

If we turn to the Gospels we quickly discover that in Mark, Luke and John the story of Judas ends with the betrayal and nothing further is mentioned of his fate. It is more explicit in Matthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." This event clearly took place after Jesus had been seized but before the crucifixion and the resurrection. Acts 1:18 gives a more lurid description of the suicide of Judas but is not helpful in placing the time. The Acts account also provides further contradictions both in the manner of his death and what happened to the money.

Note also in Acts 1:24-26 that Matthias, the replacement for Judas, was elected after the ascension and just before Pentecost and thus could not be counted as among "the twelve" as a resurrection witness. There is a clear contradiction here. Either Paul is wrong or Matthew is wrong. Let me suggest to you that Paul knew nothing of any betrayal by Judas because the story was not developed until after Paul's death. The story itself is a midrashic construction based on a number of Old Testament references. The necessity to develop Judas as a reviled scapegoat was to deflect blame from the Romans to the Jews in order to assist Christian survival in a Roman world, which was already turning a very negative eye on the early Christians. What better way to do so than to choose a character bearing the very name of the nation of the Jews? This aspect of scriptural motivation could be developed much further.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In both citations above Jesus is addressing “the twelve” (including Judas) indicating to them that they (including Judas) would be with him in the kingdom. If Judas did indeed betray Jesus and is condemned then either Jesus was unaware of Judas’ impending betrayal or Jesus lied to Judas (and the other eleven). Everywhere a reference is made to ”the twelve” the roster includes Judas. But then we come to the following citation.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.

Paul here is telling us that Judas was a witness to the resurrection. No mention is made of the betrayal or the “fact” that Judas committed suicide before the resurrection. It must also be pointed out that Mattias was not chosen to replace Judas until almost two months after the resurrection. There are some serious contradictions in these three sources. We do not have to invent ways to reconcile these problems when there is a single simple explanation --- the betrayal and suicide of Judas are a late developing interpretive mythology that Paul was unaware of.

One further point deserves to be mentioned and that is the historicity of the ‘thirty pieces of silver’. The fact of the matter is that pieces of silver were not used in the Temple in the first century and had not been used for over 200 years. They had been replaced by minted coins thereby avoiding the necessity of weighing on a balance to determine value. It would also appear that Matthew in mentioning this was using the literary technique of haggadic midrash in referencing Zecharia 11:12-13.
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmanbob

Goat Whisperer
Supporter
Sep 6, 2016
15,961
10,817
73
92040
✟1,096,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Do you think Judas went to heaven or hell? Some believe he went to hell because he killed himself. Some think he went to heaven because he seemed to realize what he did was wrong.

I believe the Bible says somewhere that it would have been better if he was never born. Sounds like the hot place to me.
M-Bob
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,137
20,169
US
✟1,440,830.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. It is astonishing that Paul, the earliest Christian writer, does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul implies here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.

I don't think Paul himself intended to make that implication.

Judas was dead, by both accounts of his death, before Jesus' resurrection. Nor do any of the accounts of His resurrection include Judas among witnesses.

We see references to "the Eleven" in scripture with regard to events after the night of Jesus' capture. We know that the disciples elected Matthias to take Judas' seat, rebuilding "the Twelve" once more. While we at this time tend to dismiss Matthias, there is no reason to think they had dismissed him in their time, or even in Paul's time. Matthias might have still been a name in the Church and may have still been counted one of "the Twelve."

Note also in Acts 1:24-26 that Matthias, the replacement for Judas, was elected after the ascension and just before Pentecost and thus could not be counted as among "the twelve" as a resurrection witness.

Sure he could. If you read Acts 1, you read it explicitly stated that Matthias had been with the group from the very beginning--even from Jesus' baptism by John--all the way through Jesus' ascension. So he was definitely a witness of the resurrected Christ.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,246
45,333
67
✟2,915,768.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I believe the Bible says somewhere that it would have been better if he was never born. Sounds like the hot place to me.
M-Bob
Hi M-Bob, it also seems a very peculiar thing that one of God's elect would ever be referred to as "a devil" and/or as "the son of perdition", particularly by the Lord if it wasn't true :eek: I'm in agreement with you, I don't believe Judas died as a believer.

--David
 
Upvote 0

Johnny4ChristJesus

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 27, 2017
1,639
831
58
Falcon
✟164,968.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you think Judas went to heaven or hell? Some believe he went to hell because he killed himself. Some think he went to heaven because he seemed to realize what he did was wrong.

Only God really knows if Judas Iscariot was allowed to repent before Him. We know he returned the money and we know what he acknowledged before the religious leaders who used him. We have no record of him asking God for forgiveness or asking the other apostles to forgive him. The Psalms quote that Peter gave: "Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take" (Acts 1:20) is actually from two Psalms (69:25, 109:8).

If all the words of Psalm 69 would be attributed to what will happen to Judas and not just 69:25, then 69:28 also says: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."

If all the words of Psalm 109 are relevant to Judas' situation, since 109:8 "let his days be few; and let another take his office" are used by Peter in Acts 1:20, then the two verses above (Psa 109:6-7) say: "Set thou a wicked man over him: and let satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin." In Psa 109:12: "let there be none to extend mercy unto him...."
 
Upvote 0

Johnny4ChristJesus

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 27, 2017
1,639
831
58
Falcon
✟164,968.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi M-Bob, it also seems a very peculiar thing that one of God's elect would ever be referred to as "a devil" and/or as "the son of perdition", particularly by the Lord if it wasn't true :eek: I'm in agreement with you, I don't believe Judas died as a believer.

--David

And yet Jesus was speaking to Peter when He said "Get behind me, satan...." That said, I do understand there are major differences between Peter and Judas Iscariot. AND, if I were a betting man, I wouldn't be betting on Judas Iscariot being found in heaven. That being said, I will not be the one who asks God "who let him in here?" if God does. That is God's call. I am just going to be thankful for what He did for me and my house.
 
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,246
45,333
67
✟2,915,768.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
And yet Jesus was speaking to Peter when He said "Get behind me, satan...." That said, I do understand there are major differences between Peter and Judas Iscariot. AND, if I were a betting man, I wouldn't be betting on Judas Iscariot being found in heaven. That being said, I will not be the one who asks God "who let him in here?" if God does. That is God's call. I am just going to be thankful for what He did for me and my house.
Hi Johnny, I know that Jesus was speaking about Judas when He called him "a devil", "the son of perdition", and "woe to the man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

I guess I've always thought that Jesus was actually speaking to Satan when He said to St. Peter, "get behind me, Satan...", but you make a very good point. Like you, I would never bet on Judas making it to Heaven (all things considered), but if he ends up being there, I won't be the one asking God why ;)

--David
 
  • Like
Reactions: Erik Nelson
Upvote 0

dreadnought

Lip service isn't really service.
Supporter
Aug 4, 2012
7,730
3,466
71
Reno, Nevada
✟313,356.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Methodist
Marital Status
Celibate
Do you think Judas went to heaven or hell? Some believe he went to hell because he killed himself. Some think he went to heaven because he seemed to realize what he did was wrong.
I'm sure he spent some time in hell.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dreadnought

Lip service isn't really service.
Supporter
Aug 4, 2012
7,730
3,466
71
Reno, Nevada
✟313,356.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Methodist
Marital Status
Celibate
There are no short visits.
M-Bob
I believe hell is the consequence of our sin. The remedy - repentance.

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV
 
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,246
45,333
67
✟2,915,768.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I believe hell is the consequence of our sin, so repent.
If Judas was condemned to Hell when he died, that means he neither repented of his sins nor believed/trusted in Christ as his Savior. It also means that the time and opportunity to do so has passed for him .. cf Matthew 25:46; Luke 16:26; Revelation 14:11.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Erik Nelson
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dreadnought

Lip service isn't really service.
Supporter
Aug 4, 2012
7,730
3,466
71
Reno, Nevada
✟313,356.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Methodist
Marital Status
Celibate
If Judas was condemned to Hell when he died, that means he neither repented of his sins nor believed/trusted in Christ as his Savior. It also means that the time and opportunity to do so has passed for him .. cf Matthew 25:46; Luke 16:26; Revelation 14:11.
That would be the commonly held belief.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Erik Nelson
Upvote 0

Mountainmanbob

Goat Whisperer
Supporter
Sep 6, 2016
15,961
10,817
73
92040
✟1,096,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I believe hell is the consequence of our sin, so repent.

Seems that a Godly repentance is a gift of the Holy Spirit that not all receive.

My cousin claims to be a Christian and even led a recovery Bible class for several years. He seems to know nothing regarding finishing the good race or repentance.

His sin has caught up to him and it ain't too pretty. Maybe his next ministry will be behind bars?

M-Bob
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: St_Worm2
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,246
45,333
67
✟2,915,768.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
  • Agree
Reactions: Erik Nelson
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
That would be the commonly held belief.

I am finding that as I grow older that I am placing less and less credence in "the commonly held belief".
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,246
45,333
67
✟2,915,768.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Seems that a Godly repentance is a gift of the Holy Spirit that not all receive.

My cousin claims to be a Christian and even led a recovery Bible class for several years. He seems to know nothing regarding finishing the good race or repentance.

His sin has caught up to him and it ain't too pretty. Maybe his next ministry will be behind bars?

M-Bob
Very sorry to hear that about your cousin M-Bob :(

Praying for him.
 
Upvote 0