Could most modern translations be in error?

redleghunter

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They never had their 'first chance' yet, because they were never "predestined, called, chosen, or ordained TO believe" (multiple verses) as the scriptures are so clearly pointing out for those who 'will be saved' in this age. As opposed to those who 'will be saved' "in the ages to come." (Eph 2:7) The 'process' is the same, only God's timing is the real issue.
The text does not say that


Ephesians 2: NASB
4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
 
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Hillsage

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Believing (Jn 3:16) and obeying (Heb 5:9) in the Greek are rendered in the present tense. Thus these requirements for eternal life in these two verses mandate that a believer must continue "believing" and "obeying." Failure to do so results in no longer having eternal life.
By "perfect" do you mean that believers cannot/do not sin? 1 John 1:8-10 states that we all sin. Though we all sin, there is a marked difference between occasional sin and the practice of sin.
This is 'my opinion' as to where 'I' come from on all this. I understand a 'one time' past tense 'believing and confessing' for the OSAS salvation of one's spirit. That is the salvation which assures 'heaven in the hereafter, now and forever' for total ME.

But then we begin to walk in the present tense "WORK OUT the salvation" of our soul "with fear and trembling". How 'far' can one go in the soul's salvation process? I believe scripture says "BE PERFECT even as the Father". And it also says "be conformed to the image of the stature of the fullness of Christ." So if you wanted to overcome the last enemy of physical death 'in this age' then yes that means you do not sin at all period. If you do sin, "sin when it becomes 'full grown/perfected' brings forth death." Not spiritual death, but soulish and physical. That's why the believing and obeying is a PRESENT TENSE action. We are talking about a present tense salvation based upon works we DO, and not the work Jesus DID.

As for my understanding of your 1Joh 1:8 verse, I balance it with 1Joh5:18
And I believe "sinneth not" means just that. Not just 'major sin' or 'chronic sin' etc. etc. When Jesus told the 'unsaved' to go and sin no more, he meant just that IMO.

1JO 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I apply 1:8 to the soul which sinned before becoming born again. I apply the "whatever is born (again) or "begotten of God" and that which 'keeps itself' to my born again spirit, which is now the "spirit of Christ" in me the hope of glory.

But I am not talking about the hope of 'justiffication/spirit, or the hope of sanctification/soul, but the hope of glorification for my body. IOW, the progressive salvation of the total 'triparte' make up of a man/woman.....a salvation which starts with spirit and progresses to soul and ends with a spiritual body in the age/ages (???) to come.

Anyway that's the theological sandbox my soul plays in, and which works for me. Your thoughts?
 
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Hillsage

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The text does not say that


Ephesians 2: NASB
4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
The text does unless you squeeze the context through your pretext which 'I believe' came from a 'prior indoctrination' which you've never challenged without 'bias IMO'. And the Spirit of God will 'lead' you into the truth, but He will not wrestle bad theology out of a clenched fist to do so.

Tell me, in the text just WHO is He going to show his grace by which you are saved 'TO' in the coming ages? It won't be us because WE ARE ALREADY SAVED aren't we, according to most here who would say that is 'their testimony'. His 'surpassing grace' isn't going to be for us. It will be for all those He never ""predestined, called, chosen, or ordained TO believe". A point which you never even alluded to, let alone addressed in my last post. So answer the whole post and don't just 'cherry pick' one thing you think you might be able to argue with. I'm not trying to be 'strong' with the 'cherry pick' Redleg, just realistic.
 
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Der Alte

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So...your conclusion is?? Every knee bowing and every tongue confessing...are those not salvific terms as consistently expressed throughout the scriptures or do you have a way of explaining away those terms? When God's stated purpose is to reconcile ALL THINGS to himself, how do you suppose those in the LOF are reconciled when they supposedly spend an eternity there in punishment for their sins/unbelief? Quite a contradiction.
Psalms 110:1
(1) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalms 110:6
(6) He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Matthew 22:44
(44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mark 12:36
(36) For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luke 20:42-43
(42) And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(43) Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Hebrews 1:13
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
What does this mean?
Joshua 10:23-24
(23) And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
(24) And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
Psalms 18:40
(40) Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me.
Jeremiah 27:12 I spake also to Zedekiah king of Judah according to all these words, saying, Bring your necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him and his people, and live.
 
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ClementofA

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Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/philippians-2-9-11-should-vs-will/4150/82

"“In looking at Phil. 2:10, “That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow,”...“In the Name of Jesus” (Greek and R. V.) means more than simply using the name of Jesus. It signifies, according to the Hebrew idiom, in the very nature of Jesus. This implies not only a change of heart, but that He has bestowed His own nature and spirit. Besides, the confession is that “Jesus Christ is Lord.” No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch8_neglected_age.html
 
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redleghunter

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The text does unless you squeeze the context through your pretext which 'I believe' came from a 'prior indoctrination' which you've never challenged without 'bias IMO'.
To squeeze in salvation after Judgment is actually the pretext.

The context is those in Christ.
 
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Hillsage

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To squeeze in salvation after Judgment is actually the pretext.

The context is those in Christ.
You should do a study on what you just said. You just told me that ''the text does not say that" as a complete rebuttal to two posts referencing multiple 'red letter' scripture quotes you know to be true. But you never addressed one of them. :( Then you want to drop 'another' one liner, without answering my last posts request to not CHERRY PICK my post and ignore the rest. Which is exactly what you've done again.

Anyway, my rebuttal to your 'second' one liner post above....and using your very own earlier 'one-liner' posts words.... "The text says nothing about" judgment. As a matter of fact, the word judgment isn't even found in the whole book of Ephesians. At least my posts are consistent in dealing with 'your all' while you are consistently avoiding too many of my questions. All the while you are reading 'into the text' your judgment 'pretext' again, which is what I've already pointed out to you, is a fault in seeking 'the truth'.

So again, as I said earlier, but in another way, God can never take you to a higher level of understanding as long as you stay willingly anchored to a lower one. So will you now deal with the scriptures I've presented and asked for your theological application of them to the topic at hand? If not, then I'd really just prefer no response at all. Because I'm beginning to feel this is is all becoming a poor stewardship of my time for God.
 
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Oldmantook

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Psalms 110:1
(1) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalms 110:6
(6) He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Matthew 22:44
(44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mark 12:36
(36) For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luke 20:42-43
(42) And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(43) Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Hebrews 1:13
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
What does this mean?
Joshua 10:23-24
(23) And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
(24) And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
Psalms 18:40
(40) Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me.
Jeremiah 27:12 I spake also to Zedekiah king of Judah according to all these words, saying, Bring your necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him and his people, and live.
Simply cutting and pasting scriptures without your explanation amounts to no explanation at all.
 
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Oldmantook

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This is 'my opinion' as to where 'I' come from on all this. I understand a 'one time' past tense 'believing and confessing' for the OSAS salvation of one's spirit. That is the salvation which assures 'heaven in the hereafter, now and forever' for total ME.

But then we begin to walk in the present tense "WORK OUT the salvation" of our soul "with fear and trembling". How 'far' can one go in the soul's salvation process? I believe scripture says "BE PERFECT even as the Father". And it also says "be conformed to the image of the stature of the fullness of Christ." So if you wanted to overcome the last enemy of physical death 'in this age' then yes that means you do not sin at all period. If you do sin, "sin when it becomes 'full grown/perfected' brings forth death." Not spiritual death, but soulish and physical. That's why the believing and obeying is a PRESENT TENSE action. We are talking about a present tense salvation based upon works we DO, and not the work Jesus DID.

As for my understanding of your 1Joh 1:8 verse, I balance it with 1Joh5:18
And I believe "sinneth not" means just that. Not just 'major sin' or 'chronic sin' etc. etc. When Jesus told the 'unsaved' to go and sin no more, he meant just that IMO.

1JO 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I apply 1:8 to the soul which sinned before becoming born again. I apply the "whatever is born (again) or "begotten of God" and that which 'keeps itself' to my born again spirit, which is now the "spirit of Christ" in me the hope of glory.

But I am not talking about the hope of 'justiffication/spirit, or the hope of sanctification/soul, but the hope of glorification for my body. IOW, the progressive salvation of the total 'triparte' make up of a man/woman.....a salvation which starts with spirit and progresses to soul and ends with a spiritual body in the age/ages (???) to come.

Anyway that's the theological sandbox my soul plays in, and which works for me. Your thoughts?
I don't think you answered my question, or if you did, I didn't understand it. My simple question was do you sin? Yes or no?
 
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Der Alte

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Simply cutting and pasting scriptures without your explanation amounts to no explanation at all.
My response which you quoted was in reply to your post where you said this. "So...your conclusion is?? Every knee bowing and every tongue confessing...are those not salvific terms as consistently expressed throughout the scriptures or do you have a way of explaining away those terms?" Evidently I gave you more credit than is merited. I did not "explain them away" but interpreted them in light of other scripture.
Psalms 110:1
(1) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalms 110:6
(6) He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Matthew 22:44
(44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mark 12:36
(36) For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luke 20:42-43
(42) And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(43) Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Hebrews 1:13
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
What does this mean? Added, note several passages speak of the enemies of Jesus becoming His footstool. I do not know of any scripture which states that at some point the conquered enemies will be reconciled. Here is a scripture which describes an Israelite conquering king making a footstool out of his conquered enemies.
Joshua 10:23-24
(23) And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
(24) And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
Psalms 18:40
(40) Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me.
Jeremiah 27:12 I spake also to Zedekiah king of Judah according to all these words, saying, Bring your necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him and his people, and live.
There is your every knee bowing and every tongue proclaiming that Jesus is Lord. We learn this by reading all scripture not just the few out-of-context proof texts which seem to support one's biases and presuppositions.
 
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Oldmantook

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My response which you quoted was in reply to your post where you said this. "So...your conclusion is?? Every knee bowing and every tongue confessing...are those not salvific terms as consistently expressed throughout the scriptures or do you have a way of explaining away those terms?" Evidently I gave you more credit than is merited. I did not "explain them away" but interpreted them in light of other scripture.
Psalms 110:1
(1) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalms 110:6
(6) He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Matthew 22:44
(44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mark 12:36
(36) For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luke 20:42-43
(42) And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(43) Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Hebrews 1:13
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
What does this mean? Added, note several passages speak of the enemies of Jesus becoming His footstool. I do not know of any scripture which states that at some point the conquered enemies will be reconciled. Here is a scripture which describes an Israelite conquering king making a footstool out of his conquered enemies.
Joshua 10:23-24
(23) And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
(24) And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
Psalms 18:40
(40) Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me.
Jeremiah 27:12 I spake also to Zedekiah king of Judah according to all these words, saying, Bring your necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him and his people, and live.
There is your every knee bowing and every tongue proclaiming that Jesus is Lord. We learn this by reading all scripture not just the few out-of-context proof texts which seem to support one's biases and presuppositions.
And just where was your interpretation? If you gave your interpretation, it simply didn't exist as you wrote nothing of your own opinion as to how you interpreted these verses. All you initially did was print verses which amounts to proof-texting. Hardly adequate, especially coming from you.

Your reply is exceedingly weak in my opinion. Explain to me just how your verses align with every one of those under the earth bowing and confessing? You neglected to explain that away. It seems that your biases and presuppositions are quite revealing. You also wrote "I do not know of any scripture which states that at some point the conquered enemies will be reconciled." How about Col 1:20?
 
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Hillsage

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I don't think you answered my question, or if you did, I didn't understand it. My simple question was do you sin? Yes or no?
My simple answer is YES. I thought I did answer affirmatively to that point in my post.

My simple question in return would be, has God provided for all believers 'the ability' to not sin? If YES, then why do we?
 
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redleghunter

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You should do a study on what you just said. You just told me that ''the text does not say that" as a complete rebuttal to two posts referencing multiple 'red letter' scripture quotes you know to be true. But you never addressed one of them. :( Then you want to drop 'another' one liner, without answering my last posts request to not CHERRY PICK my post and ignore the rest. Which is exactly what you've done again.

Anyway, my rebuttal to your 'second' one liner post above....and using your very own earlier 'one-liner' posts words.... "The text says nothing about" judgment. As a matter of fact, the word judgment isn't even found in the whole book of Ephesians. At least my posts are consistent in dealing with 'your all' while you are consistently avoiding too many of my questions. All the while you are reading 'into the text' your judgment 'pretext' again, which is what I've already pointed out to you, is a fault in seeking 'the truth'.

So again, as I said earlier, but in another way, God can never take you to a higher level of understanding as long as you stay willingly anchored to a lower one. So will you now deal with the scriptures I've presented and asked for your theological application of them to the topic at hand? If not, then I'd really just prefer no response at all. Because I'm beginning to feel this is is all becoming a poor stewardship of my time for God.
I did not squeeze in a Judgement. Here’s the text expanded in context:

Ephesians 2: NASB
4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

It’s about those in Christ Jesus.
 
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Der Alte

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<OMT>And just where was your interpretation? If you gave your interpretation, it simply didn't exist as you wrote nothing of your own opinion as to how you interpreted these verses. All you initially did was print verses which amounts to proof-texting. Hardly adequate, especially coming from you.
Your reply is exceedingly weak in my opinion. Explain to me just how your verses align with every one of those under the earth bowing and confessing? You neglected to explain that away. It seems that your biases and presuppositions are quite revealing. You also wrote "I do not know of any scripture which states that at some point the conquered enemies will be reconciled." How about Col 1:20?<end>
You spent a paragraph or so complaining that I only quoted scripture and didn't provide any interpretation then you reply to my post, "How about Col 1:20?" Well how about it, where is your interpretation?
.....You asked me how my "verses align with every one of those under the earth bowing and confessing?" The same way you have them supposedly being saved and bowing and confessing although they are under the earth.
 
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Hillsage

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I did not squeeze in a Judgement. Here’s the text expanded in context:

Yes you did, and it's in your quoted answer below.
To squeeze in salvation after Judgment is actually the pretext.

And you left out the most important verse of the "text expanded" which is verse 8.
Ephesians 2: NASB 4 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
It’s about those in Christ Jesus.

No it isn't, verse 7 is talking about those who are going to be saved in "the ages to come" and it is comparing them to us who have already received the kindness of His grace by which we were saved in the age this verse was written, and which you and I live in. That is the context for the verse you all claim. A verse which says it ain't about what you did, it's about the FAITH HE GAVE YOU so that you COULD believe to confess. And when you realize that, you will have a compassion for those He didn't give it too. Because Christians still deserve hell just as much as unbelievers do because 'many' Christians still sin just as much as 'some' unbelievers do.

EPH 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

And now, for the third time you still refuse to deal with the scriptures I posted twice. Scriptures which answer the only way God could not end up being considered more eternally evil and unforgiving than any despot human to ever live. And the reason He won't be is by His giving to 'them' the grace we were "predestined, called, chosen, ordained to believe" with in THIS AGE.

I'm just going to leave you with your opinion Red and I'll keep mine. I've got other things to do. :wave:
 
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Oldmantook

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My simple answer is YES. I thought I did answer affirmatively to that point in my post.

My simple question in return would be, has God provided for all believers 'the ability' to not sin? If YES, then why do we?
Thanks for your answer. Yes God has provided the ability to not sin. God has given believers the choice out of obedience or disobedience to choose whether to sin or not. Adam & Eve chose. The Israelites chose. Believers choose. That is why the apostle Paul warned IF we are living according to the flesh - we will die. But IF we are putting to death the deeds of the body - we will live. (Rom 8:13).
 
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Oldmantook

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Show me the Scriptures which address salvation after Judgment and we can discuss them.
You have presumed that there is no salvation after judgment. Prove it. I asked you before what does reconcile ALL mean? According to you, all means some. The scriptures definitely speak of judgement. The scriptures definitely speak of reconciling/saving all. I believe in both. Your choose to only believe in the former - contrary to the whole of Scripture.
 
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Oldmantook

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<OMT>And just where was your interpretation? If you gave your interpretation, it simply didn't exist as you wrote nothing of your own opinion as to how you interpreted these verses. All you initially did was print verses which amounts to proof-texting. Hardly adequate, especially coming from you.
Your reply is exceedingly weak in my opinion. Explain to me just how your verses align with every one of those under the earth bowing and confessing? You neglected to explain that away. It seems that your biases and presuppositions are quite revealing. You also wrote "I do not know of any scripture which states that at some point the conquered enemies will be reconciled." How about Col 1:20?<end>

You spent a paragraph or so complaining that I only quoted scripture and didn't provide any interpretation then you reply to my post, "How about Col 1:20?" Well how about it, where is your interpretation?
.....You asked me how my "verses align with every one of those under the earth bowing and confessing?" The same way you have them supposedly being saved and bowing and confessing although they are under the earth.
Still waiting for your answer. Is you can't provide one, don't waste my time Der Alter.
 
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