70th Week - It Is Still Pending

DaDad

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That which is nonexistent, and that which is usual, are mutually exclusive.

That's not the presumption provided by Walvoord, who cited Young, who cited Keil & Kliefoth. That's YOUR presumption based upon YOUR perspectives. And as already provided, the weight of the argument is in favor of the above three sources.

We can proceed.
GREAT:


So now, I would propose that we leave this point unresolved, and proceed to the next point, the Daniel 9:2 selection of the word "biyn" as presented in Daniel 9:2

“...perceived in the books the number of years...” (RSV[1])
“...understood by books the number of the years...” (KJV[2])
“...understood by the books the number of the years...” (NKJV[3])
If Daniel simply read in “the books”, much like picking up a newspaper and reading the weather forecast, he would have used the “shama” simple understanding. However, Daniel used the word “biyn” which is a much more complex understanding. Consider 1 Kings 3:

9 Give thy servant therefore an understanding [shama, H8085] mind to govern thy people, that I may discern between good and evil; for who is able to govern this thy great people?”

11 And God said to him, “Because you have asked this, and have not asked for yourself long life or riches or the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding [biyn H995] to discern what is right, 12 behold, I now do according to your word. Behold, I give you a wise and discerning [biyn H995] mind, so that none like you has been before you and none like you shall arise after you.
As evidenced, Solomon asked for a simple “shama” understanding, and although GOD said HE would give him what he asked for, GOD did not give him what he asked for. Instead HE gave Solomon a much more complex understanding, which would not be matched by any other man. As such, we must consider that Daniel did not read the “books” as from Jeremiah 29:10:

10 “For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place.
Instead Daniel read something much more complex “in the books” of the Old Testament. As such, I would propose that there is a direct reference in at least one book of the Old Testament which reveals the number of years according to the seventy weeks.

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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BABerean2

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That's not the presumption provided by Walvoord, who cited Young, who cited Keil & Kliefoth.

Walvoord is doing whatever is required to make John Nelson Darby's doctrine work, which was brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

It appears that you are following in his footsteps.




.
 
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Seville90210

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It should be embarrassing to claim that Jesus is not God.

It be more embarrassing when you're unable to quote me having said that.



The embarrassment would come when others see you attempting to ignore Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Nope, the embarrassment is on you when you realize you're trying to prove the covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 is the same covenant in Matthew 26:28.

The covenant in Matthew 26:28 was made for everyone. Christ's blood saves all mankind, Jews and gentiles, from sin, and not solely the Jewish people of Israel and Judah.

Matthew 26:28 King James Version (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


The covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 is made only with the Jewish people, not everyone.

Jeremiah 31:31 King James Version (KJV)
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Now how long have you been pushing this idea of both being the same covenant without knowing an obvious difference? You can thank me lately for making you aware of this.
 
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Seville90210

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So.....by quoting all this above....ISTM that you're denying most of the point made in the NT (the whole Bible, actually, since the OT points to the meaning of what Jesus did while on this earth and how the apostles responded by taking that gospel out to "all the world"). Paul said he and his co-workers in the gospel were “ministers of the new covenant,” which he likened to “the ministry of the Spirit” and “the ministry of righteousness.

Just to clarify....you're saying the fulfillment of this promise is still off in the future (our future)?


Jeremiah, a prophet of Judah before and during the Babylonian exile (586 – 538 BC), delivered a key promise to the house of Israel and the house of Judah, a promise of coming days when God would establish a new covenant:

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more” (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

The covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 and the covenant Christ did make in Matthew 26:28 are not the same covenant. My recent reply to BABereans below.

The covenant in Matthew 26:28 was made for everyone. Christ's blood saves all mankind, Jews and gentiles, from sin, and not solely the Jewish people of Israel and Judah.

Matthew 26:28 King James Version (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 is made only with the Jewish people, not everyone.

Jeremiah 31:31 King James Version (KJV)
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:



The covenant in Matthew 26:28 was made for everyone. Christ's blood saves all mankind, Jews and gentiles, from sin, and not solely the Jewish people of Israel and Judah.

Matthew 26:28 King James Version (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.​


The covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 is made only with the Jewish people, not everyone.

Jeremiah 31:31 King James Version (KJV)
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

The covenant in Jeremiah 31 is a new covenant still in the future that will happen at the end of the tribulation. From Jeremiah chapter 30 to the end of chapter 31, you can find at least 10 verses that shows this prophesy still future, some very obvious, and none of which happened during Christ's 3.5 year ministry at the first coming. Context is everything. Anyone can take a few verses to make it say when he wants it to say. Go read Jeremiah 30-31 yourself.
 
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BABerean2

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The covenant in Jeremiah 31 is a new covenant still in the future that will happen at the end of the tribulation.

The only way to make the above work is by cutting out the word "now" in the passages below.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

.
 
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Seville90210

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The only way to make the above work is by cutting out the word "now" in the passages below.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

.

The only way to make your version of this doctrine work is by ignoring what Jeremiah said in this prophecy will be fulfilled in the last 3 verses of chapter 31.

Jeremiah 31:38-40 King James Version (KJV)
38 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

Jeremiah 31:38-40 - The entire city of Jerusalem will be built in honor of Christ. This never happened during Christ's ministry at the first coming.

Jeremiah 31:40 - The city of Jerusalem will never be destroy again, forever. Guess what happened 40 years after Christ's ministry in 70 AD?
 
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BABerean2

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Jeremiah 31:38-40 - The entire city of Jerusalem will be built in honor of Christ. This never happened during Christ's ministry at the first coming.

Jeremiah 31:40 - The city of Jerusalem will never be destroy again, forever. Guess what happened 40 years after Christ's ministry in 70 AD?

Instead of admitting that the author of the Book of Hebrews quoted Jeremiah 31:31-34, and showed it being fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, you are trying to ignore that text, and look for an escape plan for your doctrine.

Then you interpret the Bible to make your claim work.



Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Apparently, you do not know the difference between the two different Jerusalems.


.
 
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mkgal1

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The covenant in Matthew 26:28 was made for everyone. Christ's blood saves all mankind
I agree......but think of whom were being addressed in Matthew's gospel. Were they not included in the "everyone"? Because I wholeheartedly believe they were!

The covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 is made only with the Jewish people, not everyone.
It all began with the Hebrews. Israel was meant to be a "city on a hill" where God was glorified ALL throughout the world by the devotion His people were supposed to display (that was the plan - but obviously God knew how that was going to play out).

The gentiles were never meant to be excluded, though....in fact, look at what Jesus had said while He was cleansing the temple:

Mark 11:17 ~ "Has it not been written: 'My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations'?


Something else to keep in mind: the entire world population was one in kind prior to the call of Abraham. He was the first to be designated a Hebrew (Genesis 14:13). The Hebrews were not set apart as a distinct people until the giving of the law of Moses (Exodus 19:5-6; cf. Ephesians 2:14).

So what was the covenant God made with Abraham (Genesis 17)? Did that not include EVERYONE? Remember.....that is called an "everlasting covenant" (it was unilateral....God shouldered ALL responsibility)....so, the way I see it, that covenant NEVER ended and never will .

Galatians 3:16 ~ Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say "and to seeds," as though referring to many, but referring to one, and to your seed, who is Christ.

Acts 3:25 ~ And you are sons of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers, when He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed.'

Another key is to understand what's then meant by "Israel". Israel means "God's people" or "His church".......and after the Sinai covenant was broken (at Christ's death - because a bilateral covenant cannot remain in effect when one party is dead)...."Israel" then became all His faithful followers (His people, His church).

"....this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel [His church] on that day. I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people’” (Jeremiah 31:31, 33)

"You are the light of the world--like a city on a hilltop that cannot be hidden. ~ Matthew 5:14

 
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mkgal1

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Jeremiah 31:38-40 - The entire city of Jerusalem will be built in honor of Christ. This never happened during Christ's ministry at the first coming.

Jeremiah 31:40 - The city of Jerusalem will never be destroy again, forever. Guess what happened 40 years after Christ's ministry in 70 AD?
The disciples had the same misunderstanding for awhile (because they were also looking for a King to rescue their physical city.....but look at all the references Jesus made to the "Temple" (which was where God's presence dwell) and the references made to the "New Jerusalem" being His body of Christ (His church).....with Him as the "chief cornerstone":

Ephesians 2:20 ~ Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself.


1 Peter 2:6 ~ For it stands in Scripture: "See, I lay in Zion a stone, a chosen and precious cornerstone; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame."

John 2:19-22 ~ Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Quoting LSM ---->The New Jerusalem is not a literal city, but a great figure, signifying the totality of all God’s chosen and redeemed people throughout the ages who have been transformed and built up in the divine life to be His wife for eternity.
 
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mkgal1

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Quoting Ray Vander Laan ~

Recognizing His people's patriotism, anger against the Romans, and desire for freedom, Jesus didn't call attention to his power. In fact, He frequently commanded the people He taught or healed not to tell anyone what He had done for them. Most likely he gave these instructions so that people would not misunderstand His role in light of the growing nationalistic climate.

Even so, many people saw in Jesus a Davidic King, a military conqueror who would rescue them from the Romans. And in their nationalistic fervor, many of these same people later revolted against Rome.

Jesus predicted the destruction that would result from the Jewish Revolts (Matt. 24:1-2). And his knowledge led him to weep as He described what would happen (Luke 19:41-44). While many of His fellow Jews looked for a political messiah, they missed the message of the true Messiah, the Lamb of God who gave real peace by taking away the sin of the world. ~ https://www.thattheworldmayknow.com/jesus-and-the-jewish-revolts
 
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mkgal1

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BABerean said:
It should be embarrassing to claim that Jesus is not God.

Seville90210 said:
It be more embarrassing when you're unable to quote me having said that.

Here.....it's implied here, where you posted the following (you're separating Jesus from God):


2) Who lead the Israelites out of Egypt mentioned in verse 32? Where in the bible does it say Jesus lead the Israelites out of Egypt?

3) in verse 32, He claims to be their Husband. Who is the Husband of Israel? Where in the bible did Jesus ever claim to be the bridegroom of Israel?

4) In verse 33, He claims to be their God. Who always claims to be the God of Israel throughout the bible? Where in the bible did Jesus ever claimed to be God? Who did Jesus claim to be in John 4:26, God or the Messiah?


Do you know how badly you embarrass yourself each time you post this scripture claiming it fulfilled in the first century when we all (except you) can see this prophecy will be fulfill at a time when the entire city of Jerusalem will be rebuild and never destroy again.
I'm sure you can post without the snarky insults. Why don't you give that some practice.

.....and BABerean isn't the only one that's not waiting for the geographical city of Jerusalem to be rebuilt into an eternal city.
 
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Seville90210

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Here.....it's implied here, where you posted the following (you're separating Jesus from God):

2) Who lead the Israelites out of Egypt mentioned in verse 32? Where in the bible does it say Jesus lead the Israelites out of Egypt?

3) in verse 32, He claims to be their Husband. Who is the Husband of Israel? Where in the bible did Jesus ever claim to be the bridegroom of Israel?

4) In verse 33, He claims to be their God. Who always claims to be the God of Israel throughout the bible? Where in the bible did Jesus ever claimed to be God? Who did Jesus claim to be in John 4:26, God or the Messiah?


No! You're being completely presumptuous and ignorant of what I said. I asked the questions you highlighted in red to distinguish whether those events were performed by God as either the Son or the Father.

When God created man and the earth during creation, He did so as the Father. When God sacrificed Himself on the cross, He did so as the Son. God is 3 individuals in 1 doing different task as different individuals. You following what I'm implying now? You failed to recognize the trinity.

Very embarrassing on your end to assume you already knew what I was implying before commenting.

I'm sure you can post without the snarky insults. Why don't you give that some practice.

Well if you want snarky remarks.

You got a lot of nerves posting this without knowing all the facts while at the same time ignoring what the bible explicitly stated and twisting it to make it say what you want it to say.

Jeremiah 31:40 New King James Version (NKJV)
And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

Now what part of this do you not understand? The bible here said Jerusalem will not be destroy anymore forever. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD meaning this prophecy is still future.

You're embarrassing yourself silly trying to argue this as being already fulfilled.

I'm sure you can make posts that are consistent with the bible. Why don't you give that some practice.
 
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Seville90210

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Quoting LSM ---->The New Jerusalem is not a literal city, but a great figure, signifying the totality of all God’s chosen and redeemed people throughout the ages who have been transformed and built up in the divine life to be His wife for eternity.

The New Jerusalem in heaven and on earth.

If you read the bible as is, accept it for what it saids and not try to make it what you want it to say, it's a literal city.

Revelation 21:10-24 King James Version (KJV)
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


Jeremiah 31:38-40 King James Version (KJV)
38 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
 
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Seville90210

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I agree......but think of whom were being addressed in Matthew's gospel. Were they not included in the "everyone"? Because I wholeheartedly believe they were!

It all began with the Hebrews. Israel was meant to be a "city on a hill" where God was glorified ALL throughout the world by the devotion His people were supposed to display (that was the plan - but obviously God knew how that was going to play out).

The gentiles were never meant to be excluded, though....in fact, look at what Jesus had said while He was cleansing the temple:

Mark 11:17 ~ "Has it not been written: 'My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations'?


Something else to keep in mind: the entire world population was one in kind prior to the call of Abraham. He was the first to be designated a Hebrew (Genesis 14:13). The Hebrews were not set apart as a distinct people until the giving of the law of Moses (Exodus 19:5-6; cf. Ephesians 2:14).

So what was the covenant God made with Abraham (Genesis 17)? Did that not include EVERYONE? Remember.....that is called an "everlasting covenant" (it was unilateral....God shouldered ALL responsibility)....so, the way I see it, that covenant NEVER ended and never will .

Galatians 3:16 ~ Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say "and to seeds," as though referring to many, but referring to one, and to your seed, who is Christ.

Acts 3:25 ~ And you are sons of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers, when He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed.'

Another key is to understand what's then meant by "Israel". Israel means "God's people" or "His church".......and after the Sinai covenant was broken (at Christ's death - because a bilateral covenant cannot remain in effect when one party is dead)...."Israel" then became all His faithful followers (His people, His church).

"....this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel [His church] on that day. I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people’” (Jeremiah 31:31, 33)

"You are the light of the world--like a city on a hilltop that cannot be hidden. ~ Matthew 5:14


The difference between the two covenants in Jeremiah 31:31 and Matthew 26:28.

The covenant in Matthew 26:28 was made for everyone. Christ's blood saves all mankind, Jews and gentiles, from sin, and not solely the Jewish people of Israel and Judah.

Matthew 26:28 King James Version (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.​


The covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 is made only with the Jewish people, not everyone.

Jeremiah 31:31 King James Version (KJV)
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

The covenant of Jeremiah 31 is a promise solely to the remnant of Israel and Judah that will be fulfilled at the end of the tribulation fulfilling the prophecy of the Time of Jacob's Trouble. In other words, Jacob is not a representation of the world, all prophesies concerning Jacob are about Israel. In bible prophecies, Jacob represents Israel, all of Israel, both kingdoms, not the world.

The prophecy begins at the beginning of Jeremiah 30 and ends at the end of chapter 31 with a promise fulfilled by God, His covenant He made thousands of years solely to the Jewish people (Jacob) in Jeremiah 31:31.

Jeremiah 30:5-7 is about Israel, not the world.

Jeremiah 30:5-7 King James Version (KJV)
5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

Jeremiah 30:8-9 is about Israel, not the world.

Jeremiah 30:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Jeremiah 30:11 is about Israel, not the world.
Jeremiah 30:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 For I am with thee, saith the Lord, yet I will not make a full to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.​

Jeremiah 30:18 is about Israel, not the world.

Jeremiah 30:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwelling places; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.

Jeremiah 30:23-24 is about the end times, the tribulation, Daniel's 70th week. Anytime you see the words "latter days" in the bible, it implies the coming tribulation, not the time of the first coming where the covenant of Matthew 26:28 was performed. It means this is prophecy of the end times.

Jeremiah 30:23-24 King James Version (KJV)
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.

24 The fierce anger of the Lord shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Jeremiah 31:1-2 is about Israel, not the world.

Jeremiah 31:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
1 At the same time, saith the Lord, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.
2 Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

Jeremiah 31:4-5 is about Israel, not the world.

Jeremiah 31:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.

Jeremiah 31:7-11 is about Israel, not the world.

Jeremiah 31:7-11 King James Version (KJV)
7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
11 For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.​

Jeremiah 31:18-21 is about Israel, not the world.

Jeremiah 31:18-21 King James Version (KJV)
18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.
19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.
21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.
Jeremiah 31:31-32 is about Israel, not the world.

Jeremiah 31:31-32 King James Version (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

Every single verse throughout chapters 30 to 31, are prophecies solely about Israel, not the world. How do you come to the conclusion the covenant in verse 31 applies to the world when everything in this prophecy is solely about Israel?

I'm sure if you read and accept the bible for what it said, things wouldn't be so complicated. Why don't you give that some practice.
 
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BABerean2

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The difference between the two covenants in Jeremiah 31:31 and Matthew 26:28.

The covenant in Matthew 26:28 was made for everyone. Christ's blood saves all mankind, Jews and gentiles, from sin, and not solely the Jewish people of Israel and Judah.

Matthew 26:28 King James Version (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 is made only with the Jewish people, not everyone.

Jeremiah 31:31 King James Version (KJV)
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

The above is the type of double-talk required to make man-made doctrines work.

Who was Christ speaking to at the Last Supper when He quoted Matthew 26:28?
He was speaking to His disciples, who were Israelites.

The difference between the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and the New Covenant found in Matthew 26:28, does not exist.

The doctrine above assumes that we will ignore Peter addressing the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in the verse below.


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

In the verses below we see that the Gospel was taken "first" to Israel.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

When the Church began it was made up of Israelites.
The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.


The New Covenant: Bob George



Some of us attempt to ignore the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6, and Hebrews 10:18.
Is this being honest with the text?

.
 
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Seville90210

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Instead of admitting that the author of the Book of Hebrews quoted Jeremiah 31:31-34, and showed it being fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, you are trying to ignore that text, and look for an escape plan for your doctrine.

Then you interpret the Bible to make your claim work.

You're really embarrassing yourself silly BAB constantly going on insisting Jeremiah 31:31 and Matthew 26:28 are the same covenant when there's substantial evidence against your theory.

This time, let's use the evidences in the book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 8:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:



Hebrews 10:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Jesus' ministry was from around 30AD to 33AD. The time the Matthew 26:28 was possibly around 33AD, near the end of His ministry.

Paul became an apostle after Christ died on the cross and ascended. Paul later wrote the book of Hebrews around 60AD.

How many times do you see the words "I will" in those verses above? "I will" is future tense. It means it hasn't been fulfilled yet as in not accomplished.

Now if the Matthew 26:28 and the Jeremiah 31:31 are the same covenant, why did Paul stuck a bunch of "I will" in Hebrews chapter 6 and 10? Now if this was already fulfilled in Matthew 26:28, why did Paul not write "I made" as he did write in Hebrews 8:9?

You think it's because Paul is reciting the exact same words Jeremiah wrote? NO! Paul's doing it
because he's telling you Jeremiah 31:31 is still in the future from the time he wrote the book of Hebrews, which if you haven't noticed is about 30 years after Matthew 26:28 was established.

Now how long have you been pushing this idea of both being the same covenant without knowing "another" obvious difference? You can thank me lately for making you aware of this.
 
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Seville90210

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The difference between the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and the New Covenant found in Matthew 26:28, does not exist.

Really now?!

Let's confirm what you're saying here.

1) You're telling us the covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 applies to the church and not Israel?

Jeremiah 31:31 King James Version (KJV)
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Question! How did Jeremiah knew about the church before Jesus came and established it?

2) You're also telling us Matthew 26:28 does not exist?
Matthew 26:28 King James Version (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


The doctrine above assumes that we will ignore Peter addressing the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in the verse below.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

In the verses below we see that the Gospel was taken "first" to Israel.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

I think you're letting your ego get in the way of your emotions because you're going off all over the place here. If you want to conduct a dialogue about apples, it be nice if you reply on the topic of apples instead of oranges, mangos, coconuts and papayas. Get back on the topic of Jeremiah 31:31 vs Matthew 26:28.
 
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BABerean2

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You're telling us the covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 applies to the church and not Israel?

No. I never said that. You are trying to create a nonexistent strawman, to make you doctrine work.

When the Church began on the Day of Pentecost it was made up of Israelites.
(Acts of the Apostles 2:36)

You are claiming there are two different peoples of God, one being the Church and the other being Israel, no matter what Christ said below.


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

How are you doing this?

You ignore Peter addressing the crowd as "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost.

You ignore Paul calling himself an "Israelite" even after his conversion in Romans 11:1.

You ignore James addressing his letter to "the twelve tribes".

You cut Hebrews 8:6 out of Hebrews 8:6-13, so you could remove the word "now".

You cut Hebrews 10:18 out of Hebrews 10:16-18, so you could remove the word "now".

You claim the Church was unknown in the Old Testament no matter what the passage below says.
The Church, which later included Gentiles, may have been a mystery to most in the Old Testament.
However, it was not a "mystery" to Hosea, based on Paul's words below.



Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


If you have to ignore certain verses to make your doctrine work, you have revealed it for what it really is...

.
 
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mkgal1

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Jesus' ministry was from around 30AD to 33AD. The time the Matthew 26:28 was possibly around 33AD, near the end of His ministry.

Paul became an apostle after Christ died on the cross and ascended. Paul later wrote the book of Hebrews around 60AD.

How many times do you see the words "I will" in those verses above? "I will" is future tense. It means it hasn't been fulfilled yet as in not accomplished.

Now if the Matthew 26:28 and the Jeremiah 31:31 are the same covenant, why did Paul stuck a bunch of "I will" in Hebrews chapter 6 and 10? Now if this was already fulfilled in Matthew 26:28, why did Paul not write "I made" as he did write in Hebrews 8:9?

You think it's because Paul is reciting the exact same words Jeremiah wrote? NO! Paul's doing it
because he's telling you Jeremiah 31:31 is still in the future from the time he wrote the book of Hebrews, which if you haven't noticed is about 30 years after Matthew 26:28 was established.
This was future in 60 A.D. (I agree) ~ but is no longer future.

What hadn't occurred in 60 A.D. was the "coming of the Son of Man" or "the Day of the Lord" which was the judgement on the *unbelieving* Jews under the Sinai covenant (the early JEWISH Christians were waiting and watching for the signs of this and fled to the mountains and were saved) that happened in 70 A.D. There was a transition period (perhaps God's mercy).

Hebrews also says:

When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear. ~ Hebrews 8:13​


Are you trying to tell us that when Jesus was speaking to His JEWISH disciples about the New Covenant, He was expecting them to STILL wait (past their life-time and many more) for another covenant?

What do you do with these verses, then?

Matthew 10:23 ~ When you are persecuted in one town, flee to the next. I tell you the truth, the Son of Man will return before you have reached all the towns of Israel.

Luke 21:32 ~ I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things have taken place.


 
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Seville90210

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This was future in 60 A.D. (I agree) ~ but is no longer future.

What hadn't occurred in 60 A.D. was the "coming of the Son of Man"

The fulfillment of the covenant in Jeremiah 31:31, Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16 is still future. It absolutely cannot be accomplished without Jesus. Jesus has to return and save Jacob's descendants from annihilation in order for God to fulfill His promise.

You even said so right here, ""What hadn't occurred in 60 A.D. was the "coming of the Son of Man""



Hebrews also says:

When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear. ~ Hebrews 8:13​

Yeah, read it carefully. "It is now out of date"

And what else does it say? "will soon disappear."

See where it saids "will soon disappear?" The Mosiac covenant is obsolete because Jesus replaced it with the gospel but it hasn't disappeared yet from Judaism. The Jewish people are still practicing the Laws of Moses.

Now your next question is probably "how can soon mean 2000 years?" Well it's because the clock stopped ticking when Christ died on the cross. Only Jesus can bring about the new covenant to Israel once He returns to save the remnant. Meaning in the last 2000 years, Israel has been in limbo.

No Jesus = No new covenant for Israel.

Are you trying to tell us that when Jesus was speaking to His JEWISH disciples about the New Covenant, He was expecting them to STILL wait (past their life-time and many more) for another covenant?

His disciples don't need another covenant. The covenant Christ made in Matthew 26:28 His disciple accepted and it's all they needed.

However, the Jewish people that killed Him on the cross hasn't acknowledge the gospel yet and they won't till they see Jesus. And He's not coming till they're ready and longing to see their Messiah.


Matthew 23:37-39 King James Version (KJV)
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


Now your next job is to know what this new covenant is God promised to Israel in Jeremiah 31:31.

One can not say it was already fulfilled when one doesn't even know what that covenant is.

Copying and pasting it on a post without explanations doesn't mean one knows. I say this because guess who does that a lot?

What do you do with these verses, then?

Matthew 10:23 ~ When you are persecuted in one town, flee to the next. I tell you the truth, the Son of Man will return before you have reached all the towns of Israel.

Luke 21:32 ~ I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things have taken place.

Matthew 10:23 is a prophecies of our time given to Christians today as warnings and guidance on how to spread the gospel particularly in hostile environments where Christians persecutions are high. Read the preceding verses to Matthew 10:23.

Matthew 10:16-23 King James Version (KJV)
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.


In Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gave us the signs to watch just before His return. One sign is the persecutions of Christians today. The parallel scripture to Matthew 10:16-23 is found in Luke 21:12-16.

Luke 21:12-16 King James Version (KJV)
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

As for Luke 21:32, it's another future prophecy. Jesus wasn't referring to a peer group of people in the first century. Jesus used the biblical definition of generation which means 70 years, not the popular dictionary definition.

Now if He was really referring to the people of that time as in that generation, the second coming would of already happened in the first century.

I'm gonna be lazy and have you read Matthew's discourse of what the word generation means in the link. Post #26.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ib-rapture-theory-paul-himself.8080794/page-2
 
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