Are world events orchestrated?

Cement

Active Member
Mar 24, 2018
320
257
37
Austin
✟55,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Satan or Lucifer as he was known before the fall rebelled because he thought he could become as God and that God was meerly the first of his kind to do so. He deceived Eve and thwarted God's original plan for mankind. The problem for him is that God already foreseen this and acted accordingly by having planned to have Jesus be killed for us in secrecy before the world began. Satan is incredibly smart he is really the guy who taught us how to build supercomputers used to store and access vast amounts of data in real time but on this level of cosmic chess he underestimated God. Did God use Satan's freewill for his own ends? It's difficult to say because God indeed has control of all the variables and parameters to this existence. He is the one who introduced the idea of faith instead of intellect. It's his show and you can choose to believe in his word or not.
 
Upvote 0

Monna

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2017
1,196
961
75
Oicha Beni
✟105,254.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
and thwarted God's original plan for mankind.

Perhaps from our time-bound perspective.
But God's plan for redemption, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, was already planned, "before the foundation of the world." Satan/Lucifer cannot/could not "thwart" God's plan. We have no knowledge of any other plan than the one that is on-going now. Whether or not there was one, we'll have to wait and "see."
God could even see what happened in "the fall" as contributory to his plan (Genesis 3) "See, now man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil..." He wouldn't give Satan the slightest credit that he (Satan) had "thrown a spanner in the works." This is entirely consistent with Romans 8:28.
 
Upvote 0

Loren T.

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
1,003
396
56
Hadley
✟24,186.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I'm not talking about them as adults, but as small children. If your small child had picked up a jar of pickles in the grocery store, dropped it and broke it, would your child have paid for it or would you have paid for it?



God did take responsibility for your sins.

Or are you saying that you will stand before Him in judgment and take responsibility for your own sins?
God taking responsibility for my sins is not God being responsible for my sins. It's just the opposite. He took the punishment that he didn't deserve onto him. The question at hand here is: Is God somehow causing sin by orchestrating all events?
 
Upvote 0

Loren T.

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
1,003
396
56
Hadley
✟24,186.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
They talk about God's permissive will and God's perfect divine will.
This is just man trying to understand something he can't by human logic. God isn't schizophrenic. He doesn't have two wills. He tells us what his will is in scripture, it's to shape us into Christ's image.
 
Upvote 0

joshua 1 9

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 11, 2015
17,420
3,592
Northern Ohio
✟314,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is just man trying to understand something he can't by human logic. God isn't schizophrenic. He doesn't have two wills. He tells us what his will is in scripture, it's to shape us into Christ's image.
We choose life or death, blessing or curse, sickness or health, poverty or prosperity. That is our choice to make. God will not make the choice for us. In the Garden of Eden was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. We now have to choose between good and evil. Is it God's will for people to choose Evil? NO but He allows them that choice.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Loren T.
Upvote 0

Monna

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2017
1,196
961
75
Oicha Beni
✟105,254.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
We choose life or death, blessing or curse, sickness or health, poverty or prosperity.

Well, at some point or level, maybe. There are an awful lot of people in the world who definitely did not choose to be born in sickness (or handicapped) or in the poverty (and not infrequently slavery) they find themselves in... And if we go back to "Adam and Eve" they made a choice through which "death came to all."

This "choice" or "free will," is one of those conundrums we find in scripture. On the one hand we have Romans 3:11: "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." and we have John 6:37: "All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out." We are born physically (of water -John 3) but dead spiritually. Spiritually dead people cannot choose spiritual life - they're dead. Or to put it another way, according to Paul's picture, we were/are "slaves to sin." Slaves don't have choices about their slavery - that is the nature of slavery.

Yet God, being committed to the welfare of ALL people, IMHO, is doing his utmost to plant 'seeds of life' in all of them, planting the ability to do good (and Satan CANNOT do good - yet we see good even among un/nonbelievers); He plants in many people a longing for more; gives some a sense of a "God-sized hole" in their life, and so on. He has endless ways to entice us to make the right choice. John 6:44 says "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." The Father must make us willing to come, willing to choose. On our own we would never choose him. He may not make the final choice for us, but He definitely tries to "create the suitable pre-conditions" that will attract us to Him.

There's a beautiful illustration of this kind of 'operation' in Exodus 23 and Deuteronomy 7, where God says to the Israelites, in effect, "I will not directly remove the Hivites, Canaanites, and Hittites, from the land by force, but I will send hornets before you to make them willing to leave."

In the final analysis, God is ALWAYS the one who takes the positive, constructive, life-giving initiative.
 
Upvote 0

Cement

Active Member
Mar 24, 2018
320
257
37
Austin
✟55,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Perhaps from our time-bound perspective.
But God's plan for redemption, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, was already planned, "before the foundation of the world." Satan/Lucifer cannot/could not "thwart" God's plan. We have no knowledge of any other plan than the one that is on-going now. Whether or not there was one, we'll have to wait and "see."
God could even see what happened in "the fall" as contributory to his plan (Genesis 3) "See, now man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil..." He wouldn't give Satan the slightest credit that he (Satan) had "thrown a spanner in the works." This is entirely consistent with Romans 8:28.

So you are in line with the calvinists thinking that Satan is just another tool of God used for further his own ends and that the fall was orchestrated by God front the start as evidenced by the problem of where evil came from?
 
Upvote 0

Monna

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2017
1,196
961
75
Oicha Beni
✟105,254.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So you are in line with the calvinists thinking that Satan is just another tool of God

No, not at all. But God will not be defeated by Satan. Nor will he allow Satan to use him. That God can and does regularly thwart Satan's plans, and uses them to serve His own purposes, does not make Satan "just another tool." It just shows the superior power and intelligence of God.

Play a game of chess with someone who is far more brilliant at the game than you. Somewhere, sometime, you will find him using your moves to serve his purpose, using what you thought was a good move to spring a trap for you. His ability to do this does not make you "just another tool" in his latest win. He just totally out-manoevers you.
 
Upvote 0

Cement

Active Member
Mar 24, 2018
320
257
37
Austin
✟55,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
No, not at all. But God will not be defeated by Satan. Nor will he allow Satan to use him. That God can and does regularly thwart Satan's plans, and uses them to serve His own purposes, does not make Satan "just another tool." It just shows the superior power and intelligence of God.

Play a game of chess with someone who is far more brilliant at the game than you. Somewhere, sometime, you will find him using your moves to serve his purpose, using what you thought was a good move to spring a trap for you. His ability to do this does not make you "just another tool" in his latest win. He just totally out-manoevers you.

edit: well its a fact that Satan probably does not know who he was dealing with. I think that Satan tried to pen God in a corner by thinking that he would never be so audacious as to suffer for his own creation. After all in heaven one of Lucifer's job was to minister to the LORD. It would seem impossible to him that God would decide to die for his own creation because he had probably not shown his full attributes to them. In the Bible it speaks of people standing in awe and wonder as they look at him whom made the nations tremble and the state that he is in. "19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:19
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Monna

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2017
1,196
961
75
Oicha Beni
✟105,254.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It would seem impossible to him that God would decide to die for his own creation because he had probably not shown his full attributes to them.

Sometimes I think that Jesus "becoming sin for us" was the only way he could get into the kingdom of death. As a righteous person Satan had no claim on him, "becoming sin" (whatever that actually means) meant that Satan was required to accept his entry (without the worship that Satan had wanted all along - as shown in the temptations - Matt. 4). Then from within the kingdom of death, Jesus broke out, defeating Satan's power. This is all only by way of allegory. What and how things actually happened is a mystery to me. We know that Satan did not "take his life" because Jesus said no one could: "I lay down my life of my own volition, and I take it up again." (John 10:16-18)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Cement
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,140
20,185
US
✟1,441,619.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is just man trying to understand something he can't by human logic. God isn't schizophrenic. He doesn't have two wills. He tells us what his will is in scripture, it's to shape us into Christ's image.

The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

And if God's plan is to shape us into Christ's image, how can that not include knowing good and evil?
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,140
20,185
US
✟1,441,619.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sometimes I think that Jesus "becoming sin for us" was the only way he could get into the kingdom of death. As a righteous person Satan had no claim on him, "becoming sin" (whatever that actually means) meant that Satan was required to accept his entry (without the worship that Satan had wanted all along - as shown in the temptations - Matt. 4). Then from within the kingdom of death, Jesus broke out, defeating Satan's power. This is all only by way of allegory. What and how things actually happened is a mystery to me. We know that Satan did not "take his life" because Jesus said no one could: "I lay down my life of my own volition, and I take it up again." (John 10:16-18)

I think you are close to correct.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,140
20,185
US
✟1,441,619.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
edit: well its a fact that Satan probably does not know who he was dealing with. I think that Satan tried to pen God in a corner by thinking that he would never be so audacious as to suffer for his own creation. After all in heaven one of Lucifer's job was to minister to the LORD. It would seem impossible to him that God would decide to die for his own creation because he had probably not shown his full attributes to them. In the Bible it speaks of people standing in awe and wonder as they look at him whom made the nations tremble and the state that he is in. "19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:19

None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. -- 1 Corinthians 2

I'm sure Satan did not understand what God Incarnate actually meant.
 
Upvote 0

Loren T.

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
1,003
396
56
Hadley
✟24,186.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

And if God's plan is to shape us into Christ's image, how can that not include knowing good and evil?
I'm not sure how knowing good and evil became the question. I thought the question was whether God created or wills evil.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,140
20,185
US
✟1,441,619.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not sure how knowing good and evil became the question. I thought the question was whether God created or wills evil.

Evil was either part of God's plan all along, or He lost control of the situation.

If evil was God's plan all along, I expect its necessity will be made clear to us in time.

If He lost control of the situation, there is no reason to be assured He won't lose control again, and that is more scary.
 
Upvote 0

Loren T.

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
1,003
396
56
Hadley
✟24,186.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Evil was either part of God's plan all along, or He lost control of the situation.

If evil was God's plan all along, I expect its necessity will be made clear to us in time.

If He lost control of the situation, there is no reason to be assured He won't lose control again, and that is more scary.
That would be hyper calvinism, which is a heresy.
Besides, how can a God who plans evil, be good? I think you are making a false statement in this "Evil was either part of God's plan all along, or He lost control of the situation."
Knowing something can or will happen is not the same as planning it. To say God lost control means what? That he didn't control every sinful impulse of man, but instead he gave men libertarian free will. Thank God! Who would want to serve a God who causes sin, then turns around and condemns the sinner?
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,140
20,185
US
✟1,441,619.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That would be hyper calvinism, which is a heresy.

I'm not a Calvinist, but what Church edict has labeled it a heresy?

Besides, how can a God who plans evil, be good?

I understand that you want to rush to defend God's honor, but that's only your idea of honor. If God turns a temporary condition that you think is evil to ultimate and eternal good, then you would have been wrong that it was evil to begin with.

Everything that has happened has been within God's plan, and His plan will prove ultimately and eternally good.
 
Upvote 0

Loren T.

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
1,003
396
56
Hadley
✟24,186.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
understand that you want to rush to defend God's honor, but that's only your idea of honor. If God turns a temporary condition that you think is evil to ultimate and eternal good, then you would have been wrong that it was evil to begin with.
Not necessarily. God bringing good from evil does not make evil good. Someone who has been raped may be able to emphasize with rape victims and help them. That does not make their being raped good in any way.
This may be helpful. Although I don't agree with all this man's theology, I do agree with his assessment of hyper calvinism.
http://www.apuritansmind.com/histor...s-of-hyper-calvinism-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,140
20,185
US
✟1,441,619.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not necessarily. God bringing good from evil does not make evil good. Someone who has been raped may be able to emphasize with rape victims and help them. That does not make their being raped good in any way.
This may be helpful. Although I don't agree with all this man's theology, I do agree with his assessment of hyper calvinism.
http://www.apuritansmind.com/histor...s-of-hyper-calvinism-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/

Was it good that Joseph was accused of rape and thrown into prison?

Was it good that Christians have been martyred and are being martyred right now?

Was Nate Saint's murder a good thing?

Is it not possible for God to take something meant for evil and turn it into good?
 
Upvote 0