An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

mmksparbud said:

That's in thus life. Nothing suggests that after death there are any more chances. God can not forgive what is not asked to be forgiven---that would be forcing salvation on someone--God won't do that. It is what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is,
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
To reject the Holy Ghost and not ask for forgiveness is blasphemy against it.

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TDNT is one of the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available. It says re the remedy for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

“It denotes the conscious and wicked rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man. Only the man who sets himself against forgiveness is excluded from it.
In such cases the only remedy is to deliver up to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:20)” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, TDNT, ed. Kittel, Vol.1, p.624, by Beyer).

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

The more literal translations have:

28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" (CLV)

29 who but ever may speak evil to the spirit the holy, not has forgiveness to the age, but liable is of age-lasting judgment. (Diaglott)

29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness—to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment; (YLT)

29 But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin: (Rotherham)

Paul speaks of the age to come (Eph.1:21). In the same context he refers to multiple ages to come (Eph.2:7), as do many other Scriptures (e.g. Lk.1:33; Rev.11:15). So a sin that is not pardoned in this age or the coming age does not require it mean it can never be pardoned, or that it cannot be pardoned in an age following the coming age.

For some people who lied to the Holy Spirit they were not pardoned from the penalty of death, which was an immediate physical death (e.g. Acts 5). The fact they were not pardoned from dying immediately did not mean they were to suffer endless punishments.

In this case a person is not pardoned. But it is limited until he die:

Isa 22:14 But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven [purged/atoned] you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

Was the immoral person of 1 Cor.5:4-5 pardoned while in his sin? No, he was given over to Satan for destruction that he might be saved in the day of the Lord.

Was King Nebuchadnezzar pardoned during the 7 years God made him insanely eat grass like an animal. No. Though he wasn't pardoned, he wasn't punished forever, either.

Here we see a sin that won't be pardoned. It won't be pardoned "until" they pardon others:

Mt.6:15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Similarly, the not being pardoned here is "until" a certain point:

Mt.18:34 In his anger, his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

If such a horrific thing as eternal punishment were the idea in Mt.12:31-32 & Mk.3:28-29, would Christ have used the ambiguous words aion & aionios? No. He would have used words such as eternal (aidios, Rom.1:20; Jude 6), endless (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4), no end (Lk.1:33), unlimited (apeiron, by Philo). Since He never used such words, He did not teach endless annihilation or torments.

The Spirit blasphemers (Heb.10:28-29) are even worse than a "serial sinner" such as Saul of Tarsus who was persecuting Spirit filled Christians, even unto death.

Even then, all of God's punishments are corrective, not merely pointlessly or sadistically meting out justice for justice's sake, but for the good of all, including the offender.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Ripheus27 said:

So, years ago, I saw an argument on this site that went, "The wages of sin are death; death/destruction is not continuing existence, either in torment or not; therefore, the wages of sin are not eternal conscious torment." Now, it struck me a while later that Apollyon the Destroyer in the Book of Revelation has locust-servants who cause inescapable (if temporary) torment and, very precisely, not death. So, it seems there is clear Biblical precedent for connecting the concept/word "death/destruction" with, nevertheless, continuous, or at least continuing, pain.

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Apollyon the Destroyer - don't find this referenced in the Bible as such. Do you have Bible verses?

At our Lords Blessed return:

The first resurrection the saved living at the time and the saved dead go to be with the Lord.
The unsaved living at the are destroyed by the brightness of His coming.
After 1,000 years ..... the 2nd resurrection - all of the dead unsaved .... the New Jerusalem descends from heaven, they (the unsaved) try to overtake the city led by no other than Satan and his minions .... all are destroyed by fire never to exist again.

If one believes there is some kind of eternal conscience of any kind after death ... that is immortality. The Bible teaches the saved will receive immortality .... the unsaved will not .... they all will be consumed by fire.

ClementofA said:

TDNT is one of the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available. It says re the remedy for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

“It denotes the conscious and wicked rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man. Only the man who sets himself against forgiveness is excluded from it.
In such cases the only remedy is to deliver up to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:20)” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, TDNT, ed. Kittel, Vol.1, p.624, by Beyer).

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

The more literal translations have:

28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" (CLV)

29 who but ever may speak evil to the spirit the holy, not has forgiveness to the age, but liable is of age-lasting judgment. (Diaglott)

29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness—to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment; (YLT)

29 But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin: (Rotherham)

Paul speaks of the age to come (Eph.1:21). In the same context he refers to multiple ages to come (Eph.2:7), as do many other Scriptures (e.g. Lk.1:33; Rev.11:15). So a sin that is not pardoned in this age or the coming age does not require it mean it can never be pardoned, or that it cannot be pardoned in an age following the coming age.

For some people who lied to the Holy Spirit they were not pardoned from the penalty of death, which was an immediate physical death (e.g. Acts 5). The fact they were not pardoned from dying immediately did not mean they were to suffer endless punishments.

In this case a person is not pardoned. But it is limited until he die:

Isa 22:14 But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven [purged/atoned] you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

Was the immoral person of 1 Cor.5:4-5 pardoned while in his sin? No, he was given over to Satan for destruction that he might be saved in the day of the Lord.

Was King Nebuchadnezzar pardoned during the 7 years God made him insanely eat grass like an animal. No. Though he wasn't pardoned, he wasn't punished forever, either.

Here we see a sin that won't be pardoned. It won't be pardoned "until" they pardon others:

Mt.6:15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Similarly, the not being pardoned here is "until" a certain point:

Mt.18:34 In his anger, his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

If such a horrific thing as eternal punishment were the idea in Mt.12:31-32 & Mk.3:28-29, would Christ have used the ambiguous words aion & aionios? No. He would have used words such as eternal (aidios, Rom.1:20; Jude 6), endless (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4), no end (Lk.1:33), unlimited (apeiron, by Philo). Since He never used such words, He did not teach endless annihilation or torments.

The Spirit blasphemers (Heb.10:28-29) are even worse than a "serial sinner" such as Saul of Tarsus who was persecuting Spirit filled Christians, even unto death.

Even then, all of God's punishments are corrective, not merely pointlessly or sadistically meting out justice for justice's sake, but for the good of all, including the offender.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

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Kindly quite with all the palaver and quote the verses that state there is salvation after the 2nd death.
There is nothing that saves from the 2nd death---Jesus never paid the price for that. He paid the price for death---never for the 2nd death in hell.

mmksparbud said:

Kindly quite with all the palaver and quote the verses that state there is salvation after the 2nd death.
There is nothing that saves from the 2nd death---Jesus never paid the price for that. He paid the price for death---never for the 2nd death in hell.

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You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

"Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshipped Him who lives forever and ever.

"-A. T. Robertson-

Every created thing (pan ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4 ; James 1:18 ), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse James 3 , with on the sea epi th qalassh added). No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisi) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off."

mmksparbud said:

That was not death. He still appeared to them and talked to them face to face after that. The word day in that verse is different from the word day in Gen 1. Gen 1 is yom. --this verse is beyom in the original Hebrew. Gen 1 is 24 hours, this verse is an age. They did die.

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It was not speaking of physical death. It was a spiritual death that happened that very day.

mmksparbud said:

There is nothing that saves from the 2nd death--

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There is nothing that saves after the first death as far as we know.

eleos1954 said:

Apollyon the Destroyer - don't find this referenced in the Bible as such. Do you have Bible verses?

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Revelation 9:11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

eleos1954 said:

begin

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At our Lords Blessed return:
The first resurrection the saved living at the time and the saved dead go to be with the Lord.[scripture? DA]
The unsaved living at the are destroyed by the brightness of His coming.
After 1,000 years ..... the 2nd resurrection - all of the dead unsaved .... the New Jerusalem descends from heaven, they (the unsaved) try to overtake the city led by no other than Satan and his minions .... all are destroyed by fire never to exist again.[scripture? DA]
If one believes there is some kind of eternal conscience of any kind after death ... that is immortality. The Bible teaches the saved will receive immortality .... the unsaved will not .... they all will be consumed by fire.<end>

end

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I believe that there is some kind of conscious awareness for the unsaved after death, because the Bible tells me so. The only discussion I have seen in response to these passages is in the nature of "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!"
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about about a historical event the death of the king of Babylon. According to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

ClementofA said:

You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

"Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshipped Him who lives forever and ever.

"-A. T. Robertson-

Every created thing (pan ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4 ; James 1:18 ), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse James 3 , with on the sea epi th qalassh added). No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisi) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off."

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Yes---there will come a day when everything will give praise to God---that happens when all the dead, saved and lost, are standing before God--just before the 2nd death---where does it say that there is a chance for salvation after the 2nd death?

Dave-W said:

There is nothing that saves after the first death as far as we know.

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True. Jesus resurrects all from the 1st death--unto the judgement. The saved are resurrected when He returns, the lost are resurrected from that first death unto judgement and to the 2nd death. Nobody gets resurrected from the 2nd death.

Dave-W said:

It was not speaking of physical death. It was a spiritual death that happened that very day.

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Nothing that states there was a spiritual death. They still stood before God and spoke face to face to Him. No such thing could have happened if there had been any kind of death. God still made them skins and clothed them. That was the first and only death, the innocent animal. Even the snake still stood before God until it was cursed.

mmksparbud said:

Yes---there will come a day when everything will give praise to God---that happens when all the dead, saved and lost, are standing before God--just before the 2nd death---where does it say that there is a chance for salvation after the 2nd death?

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Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/philippians-2-9-11-should-vs-will/4150/82

"“In looking at Phil. 2:10, “That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow,”...“In the Name of Jesus” (Greek and R. V.) means more than simply using the name of Jesus. It signifies, according to the Hebrew idiom, in the very nature of Jesus. This implies not only a change of heart, but that He has bestowed His own nature and spirit. Besides, the confession is that “Jesus Christ is Lord.” No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch8_neglected_age.html

ClementofA said:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/philippians-2-9-11-should-vs-will/4150/82

"“In looking at Phil. 2:10, “That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow,”...“In the Name of Jesus” (Greek and R. V.) means more than simply using the name of Jesus. It signifies, according to the Hebrew idiom, in the very nature of Jesus. This implies not only a change of heart, but that He has bestowed His own nature and spirit. Besides, the confession is that “Jesus Christ is Lord.” No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch8_neglected_age.html

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As I said---this is definitely what will happen when all the wicked will bow and acknowledge that God is Lord and face judgement---before they are thrown into the lake of fire, everyone one of them, including Satan, will acknowledge God is Lord and acknowledge their judgement is just and merciful.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Where is the verse that states there is any chance of salvation after that 2nd death?

mmksparbud said:

As I said---this is definitely what will happen when all the wicked will bow and acknowledge that God is Lord and face judgement---before they are thrown into the lake of fire, everyone one of them, including Satan, will acknowledge God is Lord and acknowledge their judgement is just and merciful.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Where is the verse that states there is any chance of salvation after that 2nd death?

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May they burn forever! Amen,

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

May they burn forever! Amen,

God Bless!

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Sorry---but I do not believe that God will burn anyone forever--not even Satan---They burn until there is nothing left of them and then the earth is remade---after all sin is wiped out. Only then can there be no more pain, tears, sorrow, illness or death. As long as there is a sinner burning---sin, pain, sorrow and tears exist.

mmksparbud said:

Where is the verse that states there is any chance of salvation after that 2nd death?

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My previous post already gave it.

ClementofA said:

My previous post already gave it.

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No---you have not given 1 single verse that states there is salvation after the 2nd death. Not even after the 1st death. You have taken verses out of context and applied opinions to them that have nothing to do with what they actually say. You have tried to put those verses through a tortuous vice and tried to squeeze out your theory out of them---not the dame thing as just posting a verse that states there is salvation after death.

mmksparbud said:

As I said---this is definitely what will happen when all the wicked will bow and acknowledge that God is Lord and face judgement---before they are thrown into the lake of fire, everyone one of them, including Satan, will acknowledge God is Lord and acknowledge their judgement is just and merciful.

Click to expand...

None of the passages i posted say that. They reveal - all - are saved. That can't occur when you say it does. It can only occur - after - people go into the lake of fire. Therefore those in the LOF will be saved.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/philippians-2-9-11-should-vs-will/4150/82

"“In looking at Phil. 2:10, “That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow,”...“In the Name of Jesus” (Greek and R. V.) means more than simply using the name of Jesus. It signifies, according to the Hebrew idiom, in the very nature of Jesus. This implies not only a change of heart, but that He has bestowed His own nature and spirit. Besides, the confession is that “Jesus Christ is Lord.” No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch8_neglected_age.html

ClementofA said:

None of the passages i posted say that. They reveal - all - are saved. That can't occur when you say it does. It can only occur - after - people go into the lake of fire. Therefore those in the LOF will be saved.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/philippians-2-9-11-should-vs-will/4150/82

"“In looking at Phil. 2:10, “That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow,”...“In the Name of Jesus” (Greek and R. V.) means more than simply using the name of Jesus. It signifies, according to the Hebrew idiom, in the very nature of Jesus. This implies not only a change of heart, but that He has bestowed His own nature and spirit. Besides, the confession is that “Jesus Christ is Lord.” No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch8_neglected_age.html

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You completely ignore all the passages that state otherwise---

Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

You only want to take the words that you want to hear and try to twist them to you own theory.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

For crying out loud-----if everyone is to be saved---why bother with giving anyone His word, why bother with living a Godly life, why bother with even trying to do what is right, why bother doing anything in this life at all including baptism, going to church, loving your neighbor?? Nothing of it would be of any consequence at all. just live for yourself and the heck with it, it doesn't matter---even Hitler gets a 2nd chance after death!!! I suppose even Hitler would get a 2nd chance--not to mention Satan---poor guy is just misguided I suppose. Jesus didn't have to go through any of the stuff He did---He didn't have to live a sinless life. He did not have to be our example of what kind of life we are to lead---He just had to slash His wrists and that would have taken care of the whole thing.
Try praying for the Holly Spirit and then throw out the trash you've been reading and just READ HIS WORD!!!

mmksparbud said:

You completely ignore all the passages that state otherwise---

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Not true. Search the forums. I've answered every verse you could think of & many others that people are deluded into thinking they oppose universalism have posted. Most of them are really lame, actually, like those you just posted. And from the rest of your response it's evident you are poorly informed on the subject (i.e. universalism). This answers your misconceptions:


https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
http://evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/04/responses-to-evangelical-objections-to.html