Switching to Anabaptist

Hazelelponi said:

The Apostles weren't social justice warriors and it is their actions as well as Jesus's that we follow as Christians.

The scripture in Proverbs was directed to a Jewish nation with defined borders and ruled by God's law. I don't see a nation this would apply to these days. Anywhere.

Our actions, are what we need to concern ourselves with. Are we saved - confessed Christ as our Lord and Savior? If yes then beautiful..

Then it's a matter of living our beliefs - not forcing others to live them. And most certainly there is no mandate in Christianity to believe every lie some news agency tells you in order to manipulate your emotions.

We follow Christ, if we see a problem in the church we work to repair it with kindness and truth. Do you want to start a church- wide meals on wheels? Then get others together, start a committee and see if you can't do one, at least one day a week perhaps.

In my area there is one church with a meals on wheels and another with a soup kitchen and they are purposefully on different days so that people in the area have help at least two days per week.. it's a small poverty stricken area and besides running a food pantry that's all our small town has..

If you see a need in your area locally that isn't being met in order to better reach the lost then work to meet it. Boots on the ground as my husband likes to say. This is what Christianity is about.. its in the doing, and the changing of self into a far better, more Godly self through the power of the Holy Spirit. Not becoming the newest fascist on the block in order to make people live the way you choose for them to live.

As a beside, socially I'm largely apolitical. The world is its own problem although I see no problem voting. My job as a Christian however, is the one God commanded - to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost. That's it.

If you want to change the world that's how God wants it done, one heart at a time.

I have nothing for churches who involve themselves in politics. That's not God's command for us. Our citizenship is in the Kingdom of God. Those are the politics we need to concern ourselves with, to involve ourselves with.

Worldly politics? No.. God deals with them.

Click to expand...

The passages from the Old Testament about doing right for the poor and oppressed and foreigner (there are very many, but here are just a couple) --

"Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause." -- Isaiah 1

"The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." -- Lev 19
(there are many more)

-- are echoed in the New Testament in how Christ summarized all the true heart (real intent) of God's commands to mankind, required of you and me, personally, today, as Christians.

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." -- Matthew 7:12

And He continues this way --
"13“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

And He continues soon --
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Or we could read the wonderfully helpful Gospel of John chapters 14 and 15, telling us to do (actions) God's will, as a direct and repeated instruction to us, if we love Him. And if we do, then Christ promises something amazing and jaw dropping.

We are given a choice between what is good, no matter that it costs us our lives here and now, or instead to be wordly and have our best life only here and now (aiming for what's best for us in worldly terms like 'security' and 'more money' and such).

Halbhh said:

The passages from the Old Testament about doing right for the poor and oppressed and foreigner (there are very many, but here are just a couple) --

"Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause." -- Isaiah 1

"The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." -- Lev 19
(there are many more)

-- are echoed in the New Testament in how Christ summarized all the true heart (real intent) of God's commands to mankind, required of you and me, personally, today, as Christians.

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." -- Matthew 7:12

And He continues this way --
"13“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

And He continues soon --
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Or we could read the wonderfully helpful Gospel of John chapters 14 and 15, telling us to do (actions) God's will, as a direct and repeated instruction to us, if we love Him. And if we do, then Christ promises something amazing and jaw dropping.

We are given a choice between what is good, no matter that it costs us our lives here and now, or instead to be wordly and have our best life only here and now (aiming for what's best for us in worldly terms like 'security' and 'more money' and such).

Click to expand...

Hey. I do have respect for you.

But the directives to how to act as a nation towards the poor and the foreigner were specific to a Jewish nation with defined borders ruled by Gods law.

Now, we have no earthly nation with defined borders ruled by God. None.

Jesus did not command we create one - he specifically said His Kingdom was not of this world, that if it was His followers would fight, but it wasn't so they don't. John 18:36

Very clear.

So how do we act toward the unbelieving world, since the directive on this point is different under the New Covenant?

For that we must focus our attention to the New Testament and what the disciples taught us.

For instance, in 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 we see what people who aren't followers of Christ do is none of our business, that God will deal with them and to worry about the purity of the church. We are told in Romans 13:1-7 to follow the laws the government sets forth, and to pay taxes because God puts rulers in place and to disobey the law is to disobey God.

We are to live in peace with everyone as much as it is possible (Romans 12:18 ) so that we can do one thing, spread the Gospel. That's our command.

Do we love one another and treat our neighbor the way we want to be treated? Yes! And our neighbors are those our lives cause us to come in contact with, and we repay evil done to us with good etc..

Nothing there that says under the new covenant we are to be political activists, but rather, just the opposite.

God's command to us is to spread the Gospel.

Hazelelponi said:

Hey. I do have respect for you.

But the directives to how to act as a nation towards the poor and the foreigner were specific to a Jewish nation with defined borders ruled by Gods law.

Now, we have no earthly nation with defined borders ruled by God. None.

Jesus did not command we create one - he specifically said His Kingdom was not of this world, that if it was His followers would fight, but it wasn't so they don't. John 18:36

Very clear.

So how do we act toward the unbelieving world, since the directive on this point is different under the New Covenant?

For that we must focus our attention to the New Testament and what the disciples taught us.

For instance, in 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 we see what people who aren't followers of Christ do is none of our business, that God will deal with them and to worry about the purity of the church. We are told in Romans 13:1-7 to follow the laws the government sets forth, and to pay taxes because God puts rulers in place and to disobey the law is to disobey God.

We are to live in peace with everyone as much as it is possible (Romans 12:18 ) so that we can do one thing, spread the Gospel. That's our command.

Do we love one another and treat our neighbor the way we want to be treated? Yes! And our neighbors are those our lives cause us to come in contact with, and we repay evil done to us with good etc..

Nothing there that says under the new covenant we are to be political activists, but rather, just the opposite.

God's command to us is to spread the Gospel.

Click to expand...

Quite right in every count. Generally the laws of the land, from the worldly government, are good and correct. (Nazi Germany is not the usual situation, and usually in most times in most nations a Christian should obey all the laws of the land, as they don't require us to commit murder such as by betraying neighbors according to ethnic group, for instance. Germany of the late 1930s-early 40s, Rwanda during the genocide, etc. -- these are unusual situations)

Normally we are to follow all the laws of the land we live in.

For example, it's against the laws typically to try to violently overthrow the government; more generally all forms of sedition. An important teaching especially needed in the early church for a time was that the revolution is from conversion to Christ, not from taking up arms to overthrow the government. Even the social order was to be left as it was -- slaves encouraged to remain cheerful servants even to harsh masters (!), women to remain quiet in the religious service (to align to the predominate order of the day) -- all so that non believers would have a chance to hear the gospel, not a social agenda.

Instead, Christians would not foment for political/social revolution, but would create the only true, lasting revolution -- bringing individuals the Good News.

The Revolution that actually works and truly overturns the order of the world in the total way.

Put simply, Christ's agenda is the utter destruction of the normal worldly order.

(And this is one way you can see why He would tell us the 2nd half of John chapter 15)

To replace what is wrong with the Kingdom of God, and that can only happen one individual at a time, through faith in Him, only.

Halbhh said:

Put simply, Christ's agenda is the utter destruction of the normal worldly order.

(And this is one way you can see why He would tell us the 2nd half of John chapter 15)

To replace what is wrong with the Kingdom of God, and that can only happen one individual at a time, through faith in Him, only.

Click to expand...

But here is faith. Not every one will be saved. So this world will always be imperfect - but thats okay because God has it all in His Hand (under His power and control)

It is ours to walk in faith, and trust in Him, regardless of what's happening around us.

CatRandy said:

Then came the separation of the children from their immigrant parents, and throwing them into cages. And still the churches are silent. There are two reformed churches I attend regularly. I sent the Pastors of each a personal email asking point blank:

1. Have you, the church or the parent denomination issued any statements against the separation of children from their parents in the recent immigration policy?
2. If not, are you planning on issuing such a statement?
3. If not, why not?

I have decided that any person, church or denomination that cannot stand up and speak out against children being in effect kidnapped and tortured are so reprehensible that they are beyond any hope, and I cannot continue to affiliate with them any longer. I am switching my membership to a Brethren in Christ church here in town.

If you are a trumpest who wants to start an argument, don't bother, I will not respond. You are probably beyond hope, and certainly not worth the effort.

If I sound angry, I am. I don't know what has caused our country to collapse into this moral cesspool, and their seems to be no bottom to it. How can trump, this moral monster, kidnap and torture children and his approval rating among republicans rises to 90% and his approval rating among evangelicals stays at 75%.

You say trump isn't kidnapping and torturing children? trump started this when he sent a note starting this policy. He started it. It was never a policy in previous administrations.

Click to expand...

I didn't really come here to get into a political debate, but I'm not one to let blatant falsehood go unchallenged in any realm.

Those photos of immigrant children “caged” by the US? They’re from 2014

Newtheran said:

I didn't really come here to get into a political debate, but I'm not one to let blatant falsehood go unchallenged in any realm.

Those photos of immigrant children “caged” by the US? They’re from 2014

Click to expand...

Consider a moment though -- always in the past many serious wrongs were done. Does that mean we can be less concerned about wrongs we see being done now?

No, it's more important, more urgent by far, to try to help people end wrongs being done right now.

As in post #21 above -- you are personally, I am personally, obligated right now, today, to in everything, do to/for others as we would have them do to/for us, wherever it comes to us. Such as when we discuss an issue, or meet a person, anywhere, anytime, all the time. Whenever something comes to us, is encountered by us.

Halbhh said:

Consider a moment though -- always in the past many serious wrongs were done. Does that mean we can be less concerned about wrongs we see being done now?

No, it's more important, more urgent by far, to try to help people end wrongs being done right now

Click to expand...

The OP saw something he didn't like, and blamed the incorrect party for it.

As in post #21 above -- you are personally, I am personally, obligated right now, today, to in everything, do to/for others as we would have them do to/for us, wherever it comes to us. Such as when we discuss an issue, or meet a person, anywhere, anytime, all the time. Whenever something comes to us, is encountered by us.

Click to expand...

As individuals. What we do as individuals doesn't directly translate into foreign policy. For instance, the directive to turn the other cheek when one is slapped does not translate into telling a nation to have its military stand down if it's invaded. A lot of Christians make this mistake.

Newtheran said:

The OP saw something he didn't like, and blamed the incorrect party for it.



As individuals. What we do as individuals doesn't directly translate into foreign policy. For instance, the directive to turn the other cheek when one is slapped does not translate into telling a nation to have its military stand down if it's invaded. A lot of Christians make this mistake.

Click to expand...

Americans across the spectrum reacted against the current administration's new policy of separating children even from their mothers, even when the mothers were present, unlike the policy previous to 2017 where only fathers had been separated from their children, but not mothers. After the outcry from all sides, Trump ended new separations.

If there had been no outcry....would any change have happened?

Halbhh said:

Americans across the spectrum reacted against the current administration's new policy of separating children even from their mothers,

Click to expand...

You've repeated the same fallacy the OP was guilty of. It would appear as if a political debate is unavoidable.

Newtheran said:

You've repeated the same fallacy the OP was guilty of. It would appear as if a political debate is unavoidable.

Click to expand...

I doubt I'll debate, as i don't have a side. But i do like to help people find accurate information.

Here's a quality neutral source of facts.

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/19/6210...y-separation-and-zero-tolerance-at-the-border

NPR is about as neutral a source of facts as Pravda was in the 1970s.

Galatians 1:4 who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world...

Halbhh said:

Or we could read the wonderfully helpful Gospel of John chapters 14 and 15, telling us to do (actions) God's will, as a direct and repeated instruction to us, if we love Him. And if we do, then Christ promises something amazing and jaw dropping.

We are given a choice between what is good, no matter that it costs us our lives here and now, or instead to be wordly and have our best life only here and now (aiming for what's best for us in worldly terms like 'security' and 'more money' and such).

Click to expand...

(this may be out of context for the thread, but here replying just to this quoted)
Most people choose what is harmful (wrong) and do it willingly. Thus many are hurt and sick and dying, when they could be healed and well and living.

"what's best" in worldly terms like security and more money and such is a pernicious obsession/ delusion that keeps most people away from the one tru[e Yahweh entirely.(until and unless by grace and often in answer to someone's pleading or fervent prayer Yahweh grants them Godly sorrow and repentance to turn to Yahweh away from the sin)

Thus, or also, as written, "many (IN the assembly) are sick and dying" (Corinthians somewhere) ...
and "for lack of [experiential, true] knowledge, MY people PERISH".
=============================================

McGlint said:

Galatians 1:4 who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world...

Click to expand...

HALLELUYAH !

Halbhh said:

I doubt I'll debate, as i don't have a side. But i do like to help people find accurate information.

Here's a quality neutral source of facts.

Click to expand...

NPR is still part of the world(ly) system, which has deceived and continues to deceive the whole world.

CatRandy said:

That continued to pull me in two directions. Especially in the last year and a half, where the current administration has been showing a greater and greater degree of evil then our country has ever experienced before.

Click to expand...

Are you still around ? Why would the "current" or any administration have any effect on you ? It should not, I think, pull you in any direction, as we are to have no part of it - no administration has had much godly influence, if any, on the country so far, in over 100 years. No more than Pharaoh did, or whoever, whenever, in the world government of things. Yahweh used Pharaoh, yes, as He Says in His Word, to accomplish Yahweh's Own Purpose. Yahweh raises up the leaders as He Pleases (not because they please Him nor even because they honor or obey Him, they do not) .....

yeshuaslavejeff said:

NPR is still part of the world(ly) system, which has deceived and continues to deceive the whole world.

Click to expand...

Not if you put God's word in your heart and mind, first.
It does help if a person has read more than only some of the scripture. In time, we become more discerning because of the Word.

CatRandy, You're on the right track looking into Anabaptism. I'm one myself. Keep studying, with special attention to Anabaptist beliefs concerning political involvements. Soon it will all start to make sense. Google Scroll Publishing and pilgrimministry.org for more information. Above all, compare all that you learn with the teachings of Jesus Christ in your Bible and I'm sure the Holy Spirit will lead you into true discipleship and to a fellowship of believers.

A futher note, Contray to what some have mentioned in this thread, not all conservative Anabaptists have drawn the same line regarding the use of technology. Compassfoundation.io is hosted by a very conservative Anabaptist people group who are at the cutting edge of technology management for their own people and any other interested parties.

CatRandy said:

If you are a trumpest who wants to start an argument, don't bother, I will not respond. You are probably beyond hope, and certainly not worth the effort.

If I sound angry, I am.

Click to expand...

I wonder if there is a denomination whose orthopraxy is known for producing people who don't get angry and engage in name-calling of other people over something as silly as them being of a different political party.
.