What's the Right Order?

bcbsr said:

So you're denying that "a man is justified by faith" Rom 3:28 and denying that "you have been saved through faith" Eph 2:8

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Dave L said:

Faith is a result of being saved, not the cause of it.

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bcbsr said:

Which is not what the Bible teaches, as I pointed out. Calvinism has been proven (by your own words) to be contrary to the Bible.

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bcbsr said:

So are you admitting that faith precedes regeneration according to John 1:11? Have you conceded that point? As for the second issue, no John 1:12 does harmonize with non-Calvinistic beliefs. For while regeneration is monergistic, free will faith is exercised prior to that.

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Apologetic_Warrior said:

Absolutely not. Ephesians 2:8 tells us that faith is a gift from God, and He gives us no room to boast. Whatever kind of faith man has before regeneration it is dead, dead on arrival, dead to the true and living God. I would concede to an either or, allowing for synergism after monergism, a type of synergism subject to and under monergism, a temporal synergism (before glorification) evidenced in the ability of the believer set free from the bondage of sin, to cooperate with God in obedience or disobey Him, evidenced all throughout Paul's letters to the Churches by their obedience's and disobedience's. Fair enough?

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"bcbsr said:

No Eph 2 doesn't say that. It neither speaks of faith being a gift, nor does it speak to the issue of the order of faith and regeneration.

Now there are those who interpret the phrase "And this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God," to be referring to faith being a gift. But such an idea cannot be support by this passage. According to Greek grammar the gender of "this" must match what it's referring to. "this" is neuter, while "faith" is feminine, and therefore "it is" is not referring to faith. Furthermore "this" is in the nominative case and therefore the subject of the sentence and "gift" is a predicate nominative. Much like in English if I said "This is a gift", "This" is the subject and "gift" is the predicate nominative. The meaning is clearer if we write it this way, "This is a gift of God, being saved by grace through faith".

Concerning the word "gift", there are two words most commonly used for "gift" in the New Testament. "dorea" emphasizes the freeness of a gift, while "doron" is used for sacrificial offerings. It is this second that Paul is using, alluding to the sacrificial offering God made through Christ's atoning work on the cross. Salvation is the sacrificial offering of God, as opposed to being obtained by one's own works. He speaks extensively of this in Romans and Galatians, contrasting the righteousness obtained through faith in Christ as opposed to the righteousness of the law which is obtained through one's works, being a performance-based salvation concept.

Thus if "faith" is the gift, then it is faith and not the atoning work of Christ on the cross which is the sacrificial offering made to God. Furthermore is the issue of boasting. Is it true that if God does not give us faith as a gift that there would be reason to boast? Not according to the Bible. "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.'" Rom 4:2,3 Here the contrast is between works and faith. It is not between faith being a gift versus faith not being a gift. And the same contrast is drawn in the Ephesian's passage as well. Yet Paul mentions nothing here in Romans about the necessity of "faith" being a gift. He simply states that since it is by faith and not by works therefore there's nothing to boast about.

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Apologetic_Warrior said:

This long quote by John Piper serves as a better response than I can give and deals with a number of passages:

"In my message on Romans 12:3-8 , I argued from verse 3 that God gives varying measures of faith to his people. Paul says that we ought "to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." In the context this is not a limited reference to the unique spiritual gift of faith (1 Corinthians 12:9). For Paul says, "I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." "To each" refers back to "everyone among you." God has given all Christians varying measures of faith. This is the faith with which we receive and use our varying gifts. It is the ordinary daily faith by which we live and minister.

In the context, Paul is concerned that people were "thinking of themselves more highly than they ought to think." His final remedy for this pride is to say that not only are spiritual gifts a work of God's free grace in our lives, but so also is the very faith with which we use those gifts. This means that every possible ground of boasting is taken away. How can we boast if even the qualification for receiving gifts is also a gift?

That's how important humility is in God's eyes. This is exactly the same aim of God mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9 where Paul stresses that saving faith is a gift: "By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that no one may boast." Faith is a gift from God, so that no one may boast. Or, as Romans 12:3 says, So that we will not think too highly of ourselves. The last bastion of pride is the belief that we are the originators of our faith.

Paul knew that the abundant grace of God was the source of his own faith. He said in 1 Timothy 1:13-14, "I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; but the grace of our Lord overflowed [for me] with the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." He was an unbeliever. But then grace overflowed to him with faith.

So he knew this was the case with every other believer too. He said to the Philippians, "To you it has been given for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Philippians 1:29). This is why he thanked God and not human resourcefulness for the faith he saw in his churches: "We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged" (2 Thessalonians 1:3). We thank God for the enlargement of faith because "God has allotted to each [his own] measure of faith" (Romans 12:3).

This truth has a profound impact on how we pray. Jesus gives us the example in Luke 22:31-32. Before Peter denies him three times Jesus says to him, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers." Jesus prays for Peter's faith to be sustained even through sin, because he knows that God is the one who sustains faith.

So we should pray for ourselves and for others this way. Thus the man with the epileptic boy cried out, "I believe; help my unbelief" (Mark 9:24). This is a good prayer. It acknowledges that without God we cannot believe as we ought to believe. Similarly the apostles pray to Jesus, "Increase our faith!" (Luke 17:5). They pray this way because Jesus is the one who can do that.

This teaching about faith being a gift of God raises many questions. God has answers for them all. Even if we don't, let us seek to put the teaching to its practical Biblical use: namely, the humbling of our pride, and the stimulation of our prayers. In other words, let us pray daily: "O Lord, thank you for my faith. Sustain it. Strengthen it. Deepen it. Don't let it fail. Make it the power of my life, so that in everything I do you get the glory as the great Giver. Amen" - John Piper​

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bcbsr said:

What good is that? Piper doesn't analyze Eph 2:8. He doesn't speak to the exegetical facts I pointed out. He simply makes a proposition. And none of the passages he mentions speaks of faith being given to unbelievers in a monergistic fashion. Do you think his celebrity status means anything to me? You could quote John Calvin himself. Like Paul said, "As for those who seemed to be important— whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance— those men added nothing to my message." In fact if you read Calvin's Commentaries, he himself says concerning Eph 2:8 that "this gift" is not referring to faith but to salvation.

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Apologetic_Warrior said:

Again...

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast." (2:8–9)

"Our response in salvation is faith, but even that is not of ourselves [but is] the gift of God. Faith is nothing that we do in our own power or by our own resources. In the first place we do not have adequate power or resources. More than that, God would not want us to rely on them even if we had them. Otherwise salvation would be in part by our own works, and we would have some ground to boast in ourselves. Paul intends to emphasize that even faith is not from us apart from God’s giving it.

Some have objected to this interpretation, saying that faith (pistis) is feminine, while that (touto) is neuter. That poses no problem, however, as long as it is understood that that does not refer precisely to the noun faith but to the act of believing. Further, this interpretation makes the best sense of the text, since if that refers to by grace you have been saved through faith (that is, to the whole statement), the adding of and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God would be redundant, because grace is defined as an unearned act of God. If salvation is of grace, it has to be an undeserved gift of God. Faith is presented as a gift from God in 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, and Acts 3:16.

The story is told of a man who came eagerly but very late to a revival meeting and found the workmen tearing down the tent in which the meetings had been held. Frantic at missing the evangelist, he decided to ask one of the workers what he could do to be saved. The workman, who was a Christian, replied, “You can’t do anything. It’s too late.” Horrified, the man said, “What do you mean? How can it be too late?” “The work has already been accomplished,” he was told. “There is nothing you need to do but believe it.”

Every person lives by faith. When we open a can of food or drink a glass of water we trust that it is not contaminated. When we go across a bridge we trust it to support us. When we put our money in the bank we trust it will be safe. Life is a constant series of acts of faith. No human being, no matter how skeptical and self–reliant, could live a day without exercising faith.

Church membership, baptism, confirmation, giving to charity, and being a good neighbor have no power to bring salvation. Nor does taking Communion, keeping the Ten Commandments, or living by the Sermon on the Mount. The only thing a person can do that will have any part in salvation is to exercise faith in what Jesus Christ has done for him.

When we accept the finished work of Christ on our behalf, we act by the faith supplied by God’s grace. That is the supreme act of human faith, the act which, though it is ours, is primarily God’s—His gift to us out of His grace. When a person chokes or drowns and stops breathing, there is nothing he can do. If he ever breathes again it will be because someone else starts him breathing. A person who is spiritually dead cannot even make a decision of faith unless God first breathes into him the breath of spiritual life. Faith is simply breathing the breath that God’s grace supplies. Yet, the paradox is that we must exercise it and bear the responsibility if we do not (cf. John 5:40).

Obviously, if it is true that salvation is all by God’s grace, it is therefore not as a result of works. Human effort has nothing to do with it (cf. Rom. 3:20; Gal. 2:16). And thus, no one should boast, as if he had any part. All boasting is eliminated in salvation (cf. Rom. 3:27; 4:5; 1 Cor. 1:31). Nevertheless, good works have an important place, as Paul is quick to affirm." - John MacArthur


John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Granted means "to give" δίδωμι didomi (d̮iy'-d̮ō-miy).

​

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bcbsr said:

You're mistaken. According to Romans 4 faith is classified as not being a work, but it is something that a person does. Faith is an attitude, not a work. "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5 Your claim is that faith is a work, contrary to Romans 4.

What is the Calvinist answer to the man who asked "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Paul answered, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved". Note "Believe" is in the imperative. It's a command for them to follow. The Calvinist cannot respond that way because it would be contrary to their theology that
1. Salvation is not contingent up faith but upon election which occurs prior to birth.
2. That a person must not do something to be saved. To the Calvinist faith is a work, therefore a person must not be commanded to believe, as to the Calvinist that would be salvation by works.

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Apologetic_Warrior said:

If I had all day and night to do this I could explain in my own words how you are mistaken in many different ways. But unfortunately it is not possible, so this short quote from a long article by Louis Berkhoff will have to do for a Calvinist view of faith:

"A. SCRIPTURAL TERMS FOR FAITH.

1. THE OLD TESTAMENT TERMS AND THEIR MEANING. The Old Testament contains no noun for faith, unless emunah be so considered in Hab. 2:4. This word ordinarily means “faithfulness,” Deut. 32:4; Ps. 36:5; 37:3; 40:11, but the way in which the statement of Habakkuk is applied in the New Testament, Rom. 1:17; Gal. 3:11; Heb. 10:38, would seem to indicate that the prophet used the term in the sense of faith. The most common Old Testament word for “to believe” is he’emin, the hiphil form of ’aman. In qal it means “to nurse” or “to nourish”; in niphal, “to be firm” or “established,” “steadfast”; and in hiphil, “to consider established,” “to regard as true,” or “to believe.” The word is construed with the prepositions beth and lamedh. Construed with the former, it evidently refers to a confident resting on a person or thing or testimony; while, with the latter, it signifies the assent given to a testimony, which is accepted as true. — The word next in importance is batach, which is construed with beth and means “to confide in,” “to lean upon,” or “to trust.” It does not emphasize the element of intellectual assent, but rather that of confident reliance. In distinction from he’emin, which is generally rendered by pisteuo in the Septuagint, this word is usually translated by elpizo or peithomai. The man who trusts in God is one who fixes all his hope for the present and for the future on Him. — There is still another word, namely, chasah, which is used less frequently, and means “to hide one’s self,” or “to flee for refuge.” In this, too, the element of trust is clearly in the foreground.

2. THE NEW TESTAMENT TERMS AND THEIR MEANING. Two words are used throughout the New Testament, namely, pistis and the cognate verb pisteuein. These do not always have exactly the same connotation.

a. The different meanings of pistis. (1) In classical Greek. The word pistis has two meanings in classical Greek. It denotes: (a) a conviction based on confidence in a person and in his testimony, which as such is distinguished from knowledge resting on personal investigation; and (b) the confidence itself on which such a conviction rests. This is more than a mere intellectual conviction that a person is reliable; it presupposes a personal relation to the object of confidence, a going out of one’s self, to rest in another. The Greeks did not ordinarily use the word in this sense, to express their relation to the gods, since they regarded these as hostile to men, and therefore as objects of fear rather than of trust.—(2) In the Septuagint. The transition from the use of the word pistis in classical Greek to the New Testament usage, in which the meaning “confidence” or “trust” is all-important, is found in the Septuagint use of the verb pisteuein rather than in that of the noun pistis, which occurs in it but once with anything like its New Testament meaning. The verb pisteueingenerally serves as a rendering of the word he’emin, and thus expresses the idea of faith both in the sense of assent to the Word of God and of confident trusting in Him. — (3) In the New Testament. There are a few instances in which the word has a passive meaning, namely, that of “fidelity” or “faithfulness,” which is its usual meaning in the Old Testament, Rom. 3:3; Gal. 5:22; Tit. 2:10. It is generally used in an active sense. The following special meanings should be distinguished: (a) an intellectual belief or conviction, resting on the testimony of another, and therefore based on trust in this other rather than on personal investigation, Phil. 1:27; II Cor. 4:13; II Thess. 2:13, and especially in the writings of John; and (b) a confiding trust or confidence in God or, more particularly, in Christ with a view to redemption from sin and to future blessedness. So especially in the Epistles of Paul, Rom. 3:22,25; 5:1,2; 9:30,32; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8; 3:12, and many other passages. This trust must be distinguished from that on which the intellectual trust mentioned under (a) above, rests. The order in the successive stages of faith is as follows: (a) general confidence in God and Christ; (b) acceptance of their testimony on the basis of that trust; and (c) yielding to Christ and trusting in Him for the salvation of the soul. The last is specifically called saving faith.

<snip>

E. FAITH IN GENERAL.

The word “faith” is not exclusively a religious and theological term. It is often used in a general and non-religious sense, and even so has more than one connotation. The following uses of the term deserve particular attention. It may denote:

1. FAITH AS LITTLE MORE THAN MERE OPINION. The word “faith” is sometimes used in a rather loose and popular sense, to denote a persuasion of the truth which is stronger than mere opinion, and yet weaker than knowledge. Even Locke defined faith as “the assent of the mind to propositions which are probably, but not certainly, true.” In popular language we often say of that of which we are not absolutely sure, but which we at the same time feel constrained to recognize as true: “I believe that, but I am not sure of it.” Consequently some philosophers have found the distinguishing characteristic of faith in the lesser degree of certainty which it yields—Locke, Hume, Kant, and others.

2. FAITH AS IMMEDIATE CERTAINTY. In connection with science faith is often spoken of as immediate certainty. There is a certainty which man obtains by means of perception, experience, and logical deduction, but there is also an intuitive certainty. In every science there are axioms that cannot be demonstrated and intuitive convictions that are not acquired by perception or logical deduction. Dr. Bavinck says “Het gebied der onmiddelijke zekerheid is veel grooter dan dat der demonstratieve, en deze laatste is altijd weer op de eerste gebouwd, en staat en valt met deze. Ook is deze intuitieve zekerheid niet minder maar grooter dan die, welke langs den weg van waarneming en logische demonstratie verkregen wordt.” The sphere of immediate certainty is greater than that of demonstrative certainty. In both cases now mentioned faith is regarded exclusively as an activity of the intellect.

3. FAITH AS A CONVICTION BASED ON TESTIMONY AND INCLUDING TRUST. In common parlance the word “faith” is often used to denote the conviction that the testimony of another is true, and that what he promises will be done; a conviction based only on his recognized veracity and fidelity. It is really a believing acceptance of what another says on the basis of the confidence which he inspires. And this faith, this conviction based on confidence, often leads to a further confidence: trust in a friend in time of need, in the ability of a doctor to give aid in times of sickness, and in that of a pilot to guide the vessel into the harbor, and so on. In this case faith is more than a mere matter of the intellect. The will is brought into play, and the element of trust comes to the foreground.

F. FAITH IN THE RELIGIOUS SENSE AND PARTICULARLY SAVING FAITH.

The distinguishing characteristics of faith in the theological sense have not always been stated in the same way. This will become evident, when we consider the concept, the elements, the object, and the ground of faith.

1. THE CONCEPT OF FAITH: FOUR KINDS OF FAITH DISTINGUISHED. As a psychological phenomenon faith in the religious sense does not differ from faith in general. If faith in general is a persuasion of the truth founded on the testimony of one in whom we have confidence and on whom we rely, and therefore rests on authority, Christian faith in the most comprehensive sense is man’s persuasion of the truth of Scripture on the basis of the authority of God. The Bible does not always speak of religious faith in the same sense, and this gave rise to the following distinctions in theology.

a. Historical faith. This is a purely intellectual apprehension of the truth, devoid of any moral or spiritual purpose. The name does not imply that it embraces only historical facts and events to the exclusion of moral and spiritual truths; nor that it is based on the testimony of history, for it may have reference to contemporaneous facts or events, John 3:2. It is rather expressive of the idea that this faith accepts the truths of Scripture as one might accept a history in which one is not personally interested. This faith may be the result of tradition, of education, of public opinion, of an insight into the moral grandeur of Scripture, and so on, accompanied with the general operations of the Holy Spirit. It may be very orthodox and Scriptural, but is not rooted in the heart, Matt. 7:26; Acts 26:27,28; Jas. 2:19. It is a fides humana, and not a fides divina.

b. Miraculous faith. The so-called miraculous faith is a persuasion wrought in the mind of a person that a miracle will be performed by him or in his behalf. God can give a person a work to do that transcends his natural powers and enable him to do it. Every attempt to perform a work of that kind requires faith. This is very clear in cases in which man appears merely as the instrument of God or as the one who announces that God will work a miracle, for such a man must have full confidence that God will not put him to shame. In the last analysis God only works miracles, though He may do it through human instrumentality. This is faith of miracles in the active sense, Matt. 17:20; Mark 16:17,18. It is not necessarily, but may be, accompanied with saving faith. The faith of miracles may also be passive, namely, the persuasion that God will work a miracle in one’s behalf. It, too, may or may not be accompanied with saving faith, Matt. 8:10-13; John 11:22 (comp. verses 25-27); 11:40; Acts 14:9. The question is often raised, whether such a faith has a legitimate place in the life of man to-day. Roman Catholics answer this question affirmatively, while Protestants are inclined to give a negative answer. They point out that there is no Scriptural basis for such a faith, but do not deny that miracles may still occur. God is entirely sovereign also in this respect, and the Word of God leads us to expect another cycle of miracles in the future.

c. Temporal faith. This is a persuasion of the truths of religion which is accompanied with some promptings of the conscience and a stirring of the affections, but is not rooted in a regenerate heart. The name is derived from Matt. 13:20,21. It is called a temporary faith, because it is not permanent and fails to maintain itself in days of trial and persecution. This does not mean that it may not last as long as life lasts. It is quite possible that it will perish only at death, but then it surely ceases. This faith is sometimes called a hypocritical faith, but that is not entirely correct, for it does not necessarily involve conscious hypocrisy. They who possess this faith usually believe that they have the true faith. It might better be called an imaginary faith, seemingly genuine, but evanescent in character. It differs from historical faith in the personal interest it shows in the truth and in the reaction of the feelings upon it. Great difficulty may be experienced in attempting to distinguish it from true saving faith. Christ says of the one who so believes: “He hath no root in himself,” Matt. 13:21. It is a faith that does not spring from the root implanted in regeneration, and therefore is not an expression of the new life that is embedded in the depths of the soul. In general it may be said that temporal faith is grounded in the emotional life and seeks personal enjoyment rather than the glory of God.

d. True Saving faith. True saving faith is a faith that has its seat in the heart and is rooted in the regenerate life. A distinction is often made between the habitus and the actus of faith. Back of both of these, however, lies the sperm fidei. This faith is not first of all an activity of man, but a potentiality wrought by God in the heart of the sinner. The seed of faith is implanted in man in regeneration. Some theologians speak of this as the habitus of faith, but others more correctly call it the sperm fidei. It is only after God has implanted the seed of faith in the heart that man can exercise faith. This is apparently what Barth has in mind also, when he, in his desire to stress the fact that salvation is exclusively a work of God, says that God rather than man is the subject of faith. The conscious exercise of faith gradually forms a habitus, and this acquires a fundamental and determining significance for the further exercise of faith. When the Bible speaks of faith, it generally refers to faith as an activity of man, though born of the work of the Holy Spirit. Saving faith may be defined as a certain conviction, wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, as to the truth of the gospel, and a hearty reliance (trust) on the promises of God in Christ. In the last analysis, it is true, Christ is the object of saving faith, but He is offered to us only in the gospel." Louis Berkhoff
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So "To the Calvinist faith is a work" is hardly accurate (as the above demonstrates), what is important is the context for how the term is used in Scripture. Btw, I noticed your little trick "what must I do", good one, too bad it does not establish ability, and in other context the answer is "with man this is impossible" when asked of Jesus "who then can be saved?".

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marineimaging said:

Wow, I thought it was believe, repent, confess, and be baptized in the name of Jesus. At least, my meeting the the Holy Spirit was pretty much that simple.

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Tree of Life said:

God calls us to be saved through the preaching of the gospel. Our hearts are shocked to life by the Holy Spirit and we are made able to believe. We place our faith in Christ. We turn from our sin.

All of these things, and perhaps more, happen when a person is converted from darkness to light. The theological terms are these:

1. Effectual Calling
2. Regeneration
3. Saving Faith
4. Repentance Unto Life

What's the proper order of these events?

Spoiler: My Answer

All of these events are simultaneous. They do not occur one after another and they cannot. None can happen without the other three happening at the same time. They are really four ways of looking at the same event of conversion.

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Apologetic_Warrior said:

Were you spiritually alive or dead before believing in Christ?

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marineimaging said:

I was spiritually dead, then I heard the word, then I believed. I was convicted of my sin nature, I repented, I confessed my sins before the congregation, and I felt the Holy Spirit wash over me. I knew I was saved. I asked for and received Believers Baptism to show the world my newfound faith in a Jesus I could not see, touch, smell, or converse directly with in a crowd. I have been remiss in my flesh, I have walked the wrong path many times, I have been less than honest sometimes and I have done things that must have embarrassed my Lord if that were even possible. Every day I grow older I miss the relationship with our God when I fail him, but I so rejoice in the warmth of his love when I rejoin him. I hike up my britches, gird my loins, grit my teeth and put on the armor of God and take the sword of faith in hand and march on - over and over again because I am human and imperfect. It was by the Word I saw the light, by faith I walked in His sight.

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StillGods said:

believe then get saved.

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Wordkeeper said:

You are saying that you were upset with your sinfulness, and hearing and believing the Gospel solved the problem by taking it away.

However the text says that the heroes of faith were dissatisfied by the human condition, working for self for treasure that perishes*. God offered them a new humanity, a new situation where they could serve others for treasure that lasts**.

Of course the text also says that God made their previous condition very stark to show them what it was, the danger they were in***. For example, Israel was serving self in the wilderness. God gave Joseph a dream that transported Israel to Egypt, where they saw an extreme version of their previous situation of serving selfish interest for treasure that perishes.

He then took them out of serving self when they cried out for help, when they realised they were being oppressed by their way of living, and showed them He could take them to the new situation. He deprived them of water and food and them miraculously provided, showing He could fulfill His promise.

Did any of this stuff happen to you? If it did, did you react like Israel, or like Christ?

*Hebrews 11:13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country,that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.


**Exodus 33:14And He said, "My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest."


***Acts 17:26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

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