Authoritarian parenting

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Serving Zion

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The word "discipline" means "training."
I agree with this. It was not addressed to you though, I was hoping for a constructive dialogue with PhoebeAnn. Please participate in a constructive way to this thread.
Do you not believe in training?
No, I uphold it. This is the purpose of the thread's objection to authoritarian parenting. Be careful as you are creeping into a position of opposing that which you are promoting - and that always ends up being demonic.
Do you think Jesus was wrong in having disciples who were being disciplined?
No I don't. Be careful!
 
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You need to teach him.

Some children don't understand that harm will come to them; they will keep repeating the offense. For instance, my 2-year-old put her hand in the hot oven. We took her to the ER and it was bandaged for a while. Shortly after it was healed, she tried to do it again, but I caught her in time.
 
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RDKirk

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I'd like to hear your best explanation for why you think that is the right thing to do. This is actually a perfect example of the sorts of rules that grown ups make and children can see straight away makes no sense, so they ask "why?".. and of course, "because I said so". .. "ok, but whyyyy???" ...

Do you know what Jews call the Chukkim?

Those are the laws of the Old Testament that have no reason that they've ever been able to discern, laws the Lord never explained, like not wearing blended fabrics.

Nearly half a century ago, I was in a conversation with an orthodox rabbi and I began to "gentile-splain" the rationality of Jewish dietary practices.

He jerked me to a sudden stop: "We do not obey God because it makes sense; we obey God because He is God."

He then took the time to teach me something: In any given situation, there are limits to reason. The human mind must learn humility. We cannot understand everything at once. There are elements of existence that, at any given time, are opaque to reason--there are premises existing in every situation that we don't know. Wisdom, if it is truly to be wise, must respect its own boundaries.
 
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RDKirk

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I agree with this. It was not addressed to you though, I was hoping for a constructive dialogue with PhoebeAnn. Please participate in a constructive way to this thread.

No, I uphold it. This is the purpose of the thread's objection to authoritarian parenting. Be careful as you are creeping into a position of opposing that which you are promoting - and that always ends up being demonic.

You are the one avoiding a constructive dialogue with PhoebeAnn.

PhoebeAnn has made a distinction between "authoritarian" and "authoritative" that you consistently refuse to recognize and have now moved in strawman argumentation.
 
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Hebrews 12
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Proverbs 3
11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Psalm 119:75
I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.

Also look up Jonah 1-Jonah 2
 
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Some children don't understand that harm will come to them; they will keep repeating the offense. For instance, my 2-year-old put her hand in the hot oven. we took her to the ER and it was bandaged for a while. Shortly after it was healed, she tried to do it again, but I caught her in time.
She doesn't understand heat.

Do you know that she understand words? .. (there are some people, for instance, that think it is pointless to speak intelligently to babies) .. It is your responsibility as a parent to guide her discovery of the nature of reality. If she must resort to self-learn through experimentation, this is what happens. Somebody had to be burned the first time ever, in order to teach others the dangers of it. This is why it is better to put down the cookie cutter and explain "awww, you've seen the oven! .. see, the oven is hot: when you put your hand there, it is hot, ok? .. and this is cold. See, ice is cold and the freezer, where the ice is, the freezer is cold! Now see when you get touch the hot things, it hurts? see how it hurts? .. so you need to be very careful with hot things. So the oven is hot, and the toaster too! .. see look, this is the toaster. And the toaster gets hot too! .. So we need to be very careful with the hot things".

I'm surprised in fact, that parents so quickly use the example of the hot stove. The child has a right to learn about hot and cold, and they're naturally going to be curious about it when they find it. If the parent's don't teach about it in love, then who is going to do the teaching? (not a rhetorical question: the serpent was the shrewdest of all God's creatures).

You are the one avoiding a constructive dialogue with PhoebeAnn.

PhoebeAnn has made a distinction between "authoritarian" and "authoritative" that you consistently refuse to recognize and have now moved in strawman argumentation.
You are of an error in your thinking, to have produced this untruth. Think about 1 John 4:6. I am in unity with what PhoebeAnn has said (as far as I am yet aware).

I had hoped that PhoebeAnn would contribute some thoughtful, constructive response so that a useful dialogue can happen. Your involvement has not assisted that.
 
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The hot stove did NOT teach her. No, I never spanked her for touching it. But you don't let a child suffer for not understanding, "Don't go in the street. A car will hurt you." Out of my four children, she was the only one who repeatedly got injured. And we did learn that she was partially deaf.
 
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Do you know what Jews call the Chukkim?

Those are the laws of the Old Testament that have no reason that they've ever been able to discern, laws the Lord never explained, like not wearing blended fabrics.
Remember that there is a reason behind it though, even if you don't understand it. This is not comparable to a traffic light at 3am in the morning though, because it is a clear case of the misuse of technology in that case (traffic lights are not intended to make traffic flow less efficiently, but to make most efficient use of busy intersections - making a human traffic signaller redundant for long-term cost savings).
Nearly half a century ago, I was in a conversation with an orthodox rabbi and I began to "gentile-splain" the rationality of Jewish dietary practices.

He jerked me to a sudden stop: "We do not obey God because it makes sense; we obey God because He is God."
That mentality nearly got Isaac killed, remember?
He then took the time to teach me something: In any given situation, there are limits to reason. The human mind must learn humility. We cannot understand everything at once. There are elements of existence that, at any given time, are opaque to reason--there are premises existing in every situation that we don't know. Wisdom, if it is truly to be wise, must respect its own boundaries.
It's very profound .. there is so much I would like to say about this! :wave:
 
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mama2one

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some children do learn some things slower than others
I used to tell my child, I need to wrap you up in bubble wrap


she accidental caught her fingers in so many spaces
car door, door in classroom, and this past year in freezer door at store (another customer pinched her fingers)

she's had to wear splints but they've all been accidents
she's very active and visits the school nurse every year
and has already been to the nurse for ice this year

even though I say "be careful" , we still get calls from the school nurse!
 
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You are of an error in your thinking, to have produced this untruth. Think about 1 John 4:6. I am in unity with what PhoebeAnn has said (as far as I am yet aware).

I had hoped that PhoebeAnn would contribute some thoughtful, constructive response so that a useful dialogue can happen. Your involvement has not assisted that.

I don't know what you want me to say. But you sound annoyed with our brother.
 
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some children do learn some things slower than others
I used to tell my child, I need to wrap you up in bubble wrap


she accidental caught her fingers in so many spaces
car door, door in classroom, and this past year in freezer door at store (another customer pinched her fingers)

she's had to wear splints but they've all been accidents
she's very active and visits the school nurse every year
and has already been to the nurse for ice this year

even though I say "be careful" , we still get calls from the school nurse!

I understand completely --- it sounds like a description of our now grown daughter.
 
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JIMINZ

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Authoritarian parents are inviting rebellion.

.
No not really, it's those parents which believe that being Authoritarian as a Parent means to Lord it over the child, acting like their a god, with both Mental, and Physical abuse following.

Authority of the Parent in the child's eyes should mean, Security, Consistency, Reliability, Stability, someone they are able to trust, with those examples instilled in the child there is no room for Rebellion to exist.
 
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The hot stove did NOT teach her. No, I never spanked her for touching it. But you don't let a child suffer for not understanding, "Don't go in the street. A car will hurt you." Out of my four children, she was the only one who repeatedly got injured. And we did learn that she was partially deaf.
Awww, yeah it takes so much more patience to teach those who can't hear us .. :crossrc:
I don't know what you want me to say. But you sound annoyed with our brother.
Yes, I am annoyed with him. He is not here to be helpful.

In post #49 I have asked you to explain what is the purpose of discipline - so that I can analyse whether there is a valid and invalid way to do discipline, and to make a clear distinction between holy discipline for teaching good conduct vs. punishment of wrath as an unfair style of law enforcement.
 
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.
No not really, it's those parents which believe that being Authoritarian as a Parent means to Lord it over the child, acting like their a god, with both Mental, and Physical abuse following.

That is definitely an extreme of authoritarian parenting, but it is authoritarian. Yes, authoritarian parenting invites rebellion (or depression).

.Authority of the Parent in the child's eyes should mean, Security, Consistency, Reliability, Stability, someone they are able to trust, with those examples instilled in the child there is no room for Rebellion to exist.

You have just described Authoritative Parenting.
 
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In post #49 I have asked you to explain what is the purpose of discipline - so that I can analyse whether there is a valid and invalid way to do discipline, and to make a clear distinction between holy discipline for teaching good conduct vs. punishment of wrath as an unfair style of law enforcement.

I thought I had made it clear that we don't discipline with wrath. Authoritative parenting doesn't use wrath.
 
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Remember that there is a reason behind it though, even if you don't understand it. This is not comparable to a traffic light at 3am in the morning though, because it is a clear case of the misuse of technology in that case (traffic lights are not intended to make traffic flow less efficiently, but to make most efficient use of busy intersections - making a human traffic signaller redundant for long-term cost savings).

That mentality nearly got Isaac killed, remember?

It's very profound .. there is so much I would like to say about this! :wave:

God gave His Son's life for us!
 
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Yes, I am annoyed with him. He is not here to be helpful.

Romans 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
 
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So I came across a Quirk pocket book today: "Stuff Every Mom Should Know" by Heather Gibbs Flett and Whitney Moss. I was reading through it, to make sure it was a worthy gift, and I have decided that I can't endorse it or allow it to influence some person's mother.

Anyhow, the particular issue that I would like to discuss with people that can help me work it out, is from page 49: Cheat Sheet of Parenting Philosophies and Trends.

There is a paragraph there with the title "Authoritarian parenting", and this is what it says:

The parent is the leader, makes decisions, and does not need to rationalize to the child. This style of parenting earned media attention under "Tiger Mom". (Even if you feel you fall far outside this realm, know that at some point we all are driven to say "Because I said so!").

Now, I am not a parent, so I can only imagine the extent of the test of patience that it is. I have all the patience in the world for children, and I've never ended up in that situation where they have driven me to impatience. But I have plenty of experience on the receiving end of the impatience, and even still I have to deal with the likes of them in the present day, people with power who have this mentality that they don't need to rationalize their decisions to me.

Now, I find this is always aptly described as arrogant and abusive. I genuinely do not understand how a person could be comfortable with themselves as being such a person.

To me, "Because I said so" is always a failure and it can only be because they do not like the answer that they would give when they are pressed to explain themselves .. it would reveal that they are making the wrong judgement.

A child, of course, is very discerning and pure in their judgements, and where something doesn't make sense to them, they are entitled by nature to have it explained to them. So puts the child in a position where they feel that the parent is being mean, that they do not understand the child's point of view, and that they don't really care if the child is happy with their decision or not. They are also helpless because the parent is like a giant to them, and they aren't so good at expressing themselves.

It isn't the nature of love, that is compassionate, patient, kind and gentle, open to reason and agreement, loving the truth etc. It's just a heart that really doesn't think of the child as anything more than a thing to be managed.

It breaks my heart when I see children treated that way, and I just can't bear to let it happen in front of me. If I could run away from it I would, but these are children, and when this happens in front of me, I need to intervene for them .. otherwise, what kind of world has it become?

There has been a few occasions where I have had to do that, notably when parents have made their children cry in public, and although I carry in no judgement against the parent and always approach the child first to find out what's wrong and what I can do to help them be happy again, the parents immediately rise up against me.

To me it just seems that the world is going to hell because they are doing whatever they want with no concern for what is right and wrong .. and these are children who are crying for justice and begging to understand why it is wrong to do what they think is ok, and they're getting told to just shut up and do what they're told. .. and now I have just found out that not only is the world failing to bring justice for the children, it it is even going so far as to teach them that it is a valid parenting style!!

.. so, yeah, if there's anyone out there who has something for me that can help, it won't go amiss. Everyone who thinks it's OK to treat children this way, go jump in a lake and stay well away from me.

.
Would this be a correct definition of what you believe an Authoritarian Parent is like?

Authoritarian:
adjective
  1. favoring, denoting, or characterized by strict complete obedience or subjection to authority as opposed to individual freedom:authoritarian principles; authoritarian attitudes.
  2. exercising complete or almost complete control over the will of another or of others: despotic; dictatorial; domineering an authoritarian parent
 
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Serving Zion

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I thought I had made it clear that we don't discipline with wrath. Authoritative parenting doesn't use wrath.
But I would like to clarify the difference between discipline and punishment. I have asked for you to describe the purpose of discipline (because you are a parent, it is most effective for you to describe what it means from your experience and I can analyse it to make sure I understand properly and then we will see if we are of agreement or disagreement).
God gave His Son's life for us!
Willingly, I feel to add.. (Malachi 4:6, Amos 5:19, John 3:16-17).
.
Would this be a correct definition of what you believe an Authoritarian Parent is like?

Authoritarian:
adjective
  1. favoring, denoting, or characterized by strict complete obedience or subjection to authority as opposed to individual freedom:authoritarian principles; authoritarian attitudes.
  2. exercising complete or almost complete control over the will of another or of others: despotic; dictatorial; domineering an authoritarian parent
Well, I hate to put labels on people, because it necessarily includes and excludes attributes that aren't appropriate.But yes, I do find that definition pretty good at describing the type of exercise of authority that I am objecting to.

I think the most succinct way of describing my objection is the withholding of love from the child where it is unreasonable. Children deserve to understand the reason for a decision, and the parent owes us an explanation for that reason. A child depends upon a grown up to teach him. To be forced to behave contrary to what we understand to be right, is to force us to act contrary to what is right in our opinion.

It only comes about as a lack of patience or sympathy for the child's position, and that's not fair.

.. it can seem a bit condescending too, if the impatience produces disdain for our ignorance, and that can be hurtful, especially when a pattern is formed.
 
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