An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

Nicolaus Mourer said:

To deny that hell is forever is to deny that God is forever, otherwise you are cherry-picking an interpretation if you cannot apply the same rule to either understanding.

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Gen_43:9 I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:

Judah could only bear the blame until he died.

Exo_21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.




The servant could only serve until his death or he gets too sick or too old to work

Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

They are not still servants to the Jews.

Num_24:20 And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and said, Amalek was the first of the nations; but his latter end shall be that he perish for ever.

So should be dead forever---not in hell forever.

Num 24:24 And ships shall come from the coast of Chittim, and shall afflict Asshur, and shall afflict Eber, and he also shall perish for ever.
Another that stays dead forever--not in hell living forever.

1Sa_1:22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever.

Samuel could only live in the tabernacle of the Lord until his death.

1Sa 27:12 And Achish believed David, saying, He hath made his people Israel utterly to abhor him; therefore he shall be my servant for ever.

Again, he can only be a servant until death, too old or too sick to work.

Sa_28:2 And David said to Achish, Surely thou shalt know what thy servant can do. And Achish said to David, Therefore will I make thee keeper of mine head for ever.

He isn't keeping his head forever!

1Ki_1:31 Then Bathsheba bowed with her face to the earth, and did reverence to the king, and said, Let my lord king David live for ever.
No king has lived forever--common salutation back then.


There are countless more--do I have to post them all?---that will take forever!!

Nicolaus Mourer said:

But nevertheless the Bible never teaches any doctrine whatsoever where a man that is thrown into hell can then be saved and given life from it, and become an inheritor of the kingdom of God. At the Great White Throne judgement, the dead are given up from the sea and hell and all are judged according to their works and according to the Book of Life. Whoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire. They who are found in it receive life.

To teach anything different is to deny that God is infinite. Remember, God is described with the same language used to describe the length of hell in the New Testament Greek, i.e. "and did swear in Him who doth live to the ages of the ages" (YLT), and we know for a fact that God is unsearchable and infinite. To deny that hell is forever is to deny that God is forever, otherwise you are cherry-picking an interpretation if you cannot apply the same rule to either understanding.

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The logic of that argument is not necessarily true. If God lives "to" a time period (ages of ages) when all will never die, then God is infinite, not finite, as you claim. That refutes your claim by showing it is flawed, i.e. not necessarily true.

Likewise if God lives "for" or "into" a time period (ages of ages) that has an end, followed by all having life that never ends, then God is infinite, not finite, as you claim. That refutes your claim by showing it is flawed, i.e. not necessarily true.

Furthermore, words are often modified by the object they refer to. The aion of an ant's life isn't of the same duration as that of a tree, a human, a spirit being or God. The "age" of the internet is not of the same duration as the "age" of the dark ages or the dinosaurs. So "ages of ages" in reference to God's life could be infinite whereas "ages of ages" re human torments for their own good could be finite once they've served their purpose.

(1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, to/into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

(2) The saints reign to/into "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

(3) Christ reigns to/into "the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15). Since His reign is "until" He gives up the kingdom (1 Cor.15:25-26), His reign to/into "the ages of the ages" is temporary. So to/into "the ages of the ages" can be interpreted as being of a finite duration.

(4) Since Scripture teaches universal reconciliation (Rom.5:18-19; Eph.1:10, etc), torments to/into the "ages of [the] ages" referred to in Rev.14:9-11; Rev.20:10 must be finite.

(5) Comparing Rev.20:10 with Matthew 25:41, Jesus said the future of the devil & his angels is fire aionios (Mt.25:41, 46), mistranslated everlasting or "eternal fire" by pro ECT (eternal conscious torments) Bible versions (e.g. KJV). Fire aionios is also associated with the fire that burnt Sodom (Jude 7). That fire was not eternal, went out long ago, & its effects will last only until Sodom is restored (Ezek 16). Thus there is a Scriptural basis for taking the same phrase, fire aionios, which also occurs at Mt.25:41 & 18:8, as referring to a fire that is of finite duration. Likewise with to/into "the eons of the eons" in Rev.20:10 which also refers to the devil's eonian (Mt.25:41) punishment associated with fire. So the devil's eon related punishment by fire in both Mt.25:41 & Rev.20:10 is finite. Therefore, the period to/into "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. And surely since the devil's torments to/into "the ages of the ages" end, so do those related to human beings (cf. Rev.14:11; Mt.18:8; 25:41), for the same terminology is applied to them. Moreover, they are less sinful than Satan. If his punishment ends, then why not theirs also? Consequently the mistranslation "forever and ever" in Rev.20:10 & 14:11 refers to a finite period of time, with a beginning and an end.

Summing up the argument:

- eonian fire is finite (Jude 7)
- eonian fire is the devil's punishment (Mt.25:41)
- which is equal to his punishment in Rev.20:10
- therefore his punishment is finite &
- his torment to/into the eons of the eons is finite &
- to/into the eons of the eons themselves are finite

Regarding Jude 7 the following Interlinear does not say "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion":
Jude 1 Interlinear Bible . Similarly, a literal version reads:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLV)

"The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376) Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

"We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7)..."

"The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

"But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

"2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

"If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

Next we'll look at a 6th case that occurs in the book of Revelation where our phrase "the ages of the ages" is applied to God, either to His glory or living, etc:

(6) The book of Revelation makes several references to God living (or His glory) to/into "the eons of the eons" (Revelation 1:6, 18; 4:9-10; 5:13; 7:12; 10:6; 15:7). God living to/into "the eons of the eons" that end no more denies His future endless life than it denies He was living before the times of the eons (1 Cor.2:7; 2 Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2) that He created (Heb.1:2). "The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began." Eons come & go, but He is both before & after them. Similarly, God is living for the present eon, but that doesn't mean He was dead before it, nor that He will be dead when it ends. Likewise He was living for past eons, but that doesn't mean He died when they ended. Likewise with His glory.

His “years shall not come to end” (Psa.102:27).

Further remarks on this point can be found in the following article in the section titled "Living For the Eons of the Eons": Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two

So we find the phrases to/into "ages of ages" & to/into "the ages of the ages" in 6 category types in Revelation:

- Rev.20:10 the torment of Satan & 2 others
- Rev.14:11 rising smoke of humans tormented
- Rev.19:3 rising smoke of a city burned
- Rev.22:5 saints reigning
- Rev.11:15 Christ reigning
- multiple references to God living or His glory

In at least 5 of the 6 category types above, the vast majority, we have said that the phrase in question is of limited duration. Even if, in the one other case, when the phrase refers to God, it somehow means "forever and ever", e.g. because God is forever, that has no bearing on the other 5 categories which do not connect the phrase with God's life or glory, and do not connect it with something or someone everyone knows is endless.

continued at:

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

joshua 1 9 said:

Just what scripture are you talking about? Jesus has the "keys of hell and of death". What do you suppose that means?

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I'm referring to the fact, if you go back and read the conversation, that the same language in the greek that describes God as being "age-during" or aka "everlasting" is the same language that is used to describe hell. To deny on one hand that hell is everlasting by making some intellectual claim that the greek says "unto age-during" is to also say that God is not everlasting.

My claim about denying the eternity of hell causing a denial of the eternity of God was a rebuttal to a cherry-picked interpretation.

ClementofA said:

The logic of that argument is not necessarily true. If God lives "to" a time period (ages of ages) when all will never die, then God is infinite, not finite, as you claim. That refutes your claim by showing it is flawed, i.e. not necessarily true.

Likewise if God lives "for" or "into" a time period (ages of ages) that has an end, followed by all having life that never ends, then God is infinite, not finite, as you claim. That refutes your claim by showing it is flawed, i.e. not necessarily true.

Furthermore, words are often modified by the object they refer to. The aion of an ant's life isn't of the same duration as that of a tree, a human, a spirit being or God. The "age" of the internet is not of the same duration as the "age" of the dark ages or the dinosaurs. So "ages of ages" in reference to God's life could be infinite whereas "ages of ages" re human torments for their own good could be finite once they've served their purpose.

(1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, to/into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

(2) The saints reign to/into "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

(3) Christ reigns to/into "the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15). Since His reign is "until" He gives up the kingdom (1 Cor.15:25-26), His reign to/into "the ages of the ages" is temporary. So to/into "the ages of the ages" can be interpreted as being of a finite duration.

(4) Since Scripture teaches universal reconciliation (Rom.5:18-19; Eph.1:10, etc), torments to/into the "ages of [the] ages" referred to in Rev.14:9-11; Rev.20:10 must be finite.

(5) Comparing Rev.20:10 with Matthew 25:41, Jesus said the future of the devil & his angels is fire aionios (Mt.25:41, 46), mistranslated everlasting or "eternal fire" by pro ECT (eternal conscious torments) Bible versions (e.g. KJV). Fire aionios is also associated with the fire that burnt Sodom (Jude 7). That fire was not eternal, went out long ago, & its effects will last only until Sodom is restored (Ezek 16). Thus there is a Scriptural basis for taking the same phrase, fire aionios, which also occurs at Mt.25:41 & 18:8, as referring to a fire that is of finite duration. Likewise with to/into "the eons of the eons" in Rev.20:10 which also refers to the devil's eonian (Mt.25:41) punishment associated with fire. So the devil's eon related punishment by fire in both Mt.25:41 & Rev.20:10 is finite. Therefore, the period to/into "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. And surely since the devil's torments to/into "the ages of the ages" end, so do those related to human beings (cf. Rev.14:11; Mt.18:8; 25:41), for the same terminology is applied to them. Moreover, they are less sinful than Satan. If his punishment ends, then why not theirs also? Consequently the mistranslation "forever and ever" in Rev.20:10 & 14:11 refers to a finite period of time, with a beginning and an end.

Summing up the argument:

- eonian fire is finite (Jude 7)
- eonian fire is the devil's punishment (Mt.25:41)
- which is equal to his punishment in Rev.20:10
- therefore his punishment is finite &
- his torment to/into the eons of the eons is finite &
- to/into the eons of the eons themselves are finite

Regarding Jude 7 the following Interlinear does not say "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion":
Jude 1 Interlinear Bible . Similarly, a literal version reads:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLV)

"The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376) Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

"We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7)..."

"The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

"But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

"2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

"If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

Next we'll look at a 6th case that occurs in the book of Revelation where our phrase "the ages of the ages" is applied to God, either to His glory or living, etc:

(6) The book of Revelation makes several references to God living (or His glory) to/into "the eons of the eons" (Revelation 1:6, 18; 4:9-10; 5:13; 7:12; 10:6; 15:7). God living to/into "the eons of the eons" that end no more denies His future endless life than it denies He was living before the times of the eons (1 Cor.2:7; 2 Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2) that He created (Heb.1:2). "The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began." Eons come & go, but He is both before & after them. Similarly, God is living for the present eon, but that doesn't mean He was dead before it, nor that He will be dead when it ends. Likewise He was living for past eons, but that doesn't mean He died when they ended. Likewise with His glory.

His “years shall not come to end” (Psa.102:27).

Further remarks on this point can be found in the following article in the section titled "Living For the Eons of the Eons": Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two

So we find the phrases to/into "ages of ages" & to/into "the ages of the ages" in 6 category types in Revelation:

- Rev.20:10 the torment of Satan & 2 others
- Rev.14:11 rising smoke of humans tormented
- Rev.19:3 rising smoke of a city burned
- Rev.22:5 saints reigning
- Rev.11:15 Christ reigning
- multiple references to God living or His glory

In at least 5 of the 6 category types above, the vast majority, we have said that the phrase in question is of limited duration. Even if, in the one other case, when the phrase refers to God, it somehow means "forever and ever", e.g. because God is forever, that has no bearing on the other 5 categories which do not connect the phrase with God's life or glory, and do not connect it with something or someone everyone knows is endless.

continued at:

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

Click to expand...

All of this, but you still cannot provide scripture that says that those in hell ever get out or are delivered*. There is not one scripture at all about saying that any who are condemned will be able to eventually leave hell, not one.

Go ahead, and make the claim that "to the ages of ages" is a finite amount of time, but the only way you can prove that is based upon your own interpretation of the language, which is pure semantics and doesn't really hold water. To base an entire doctrine (that people don't spend eternity in hell) on that is not a strong argument at all.

Provide me one verse that says that a person that is condemned in hell is able to be saved out of it. If you are able to, I repent from my doctrine and admit I was wrong.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

All of this, but you still cannot provide scripture that says that those in hell ever get out or are delivered*. There is not one scripture at all about saying that any who are condemned will be able to eventually leave hell, not one.

Go ahead, and make the claim that "to the ages of ages" is a finite amount of time, but the only way you can prove that is based upon your own interpretation of the language, which is pure semantics and doesn't really hold water. To base an entire doctrine (that people don't spend eternity in hell) on that is not a strong argument at all.

Provide me one verse that says that a person that is condemned in hell is able to be saved out of it. If you are able to, I repent from my doctrine and admit I was wrong.

Click to expand...

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them alive for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

? said:

Do you agree with Vincent that aidios means everlasting?

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I think it was a superior word to use relative to the ambiguous aion & aionios, if God was a believer in endless punishment. Moreover, as opposed to aion and aionios (which are often used of finite duration), God had a number of other words & expressions available that would also have better served to express endless punishment, if Love Omnipotent were a believer of such. But He never uses such of eschatological punishment. So the reasonable conclusion is that Love Omnipotent rejected using such words and expressions of a final destiny of endless punishment because He knew better & He rejected the notion that anyone will endure endless punishment. Those words & expresssions are:

1. no end (Lk.1:33)...this expression is used of God's kingdom having "no end". It is never used of anyone's torments or punishment. We never read of anyone receiving torments that will have "no end". This unambiguous phrase, "no end", would have been a superior choice to the ambiguous words aion & aionion, if Love Omnipotent had a belief in endless torments or annihilation. But He rejected its use in expressing such a fate.

2. endless (1 Tim.1:4)...Again if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments, why didn't He use this word to express it, instead of the ambiguous aion & aionion, which often refer to finite durations in ancient Greek usage?

3. never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment. If Jude believed in endless punishment, he had the perfect opportunity at Jude 1:6 by simply adding that the angels would suffer the judgement of eternal (AIDIOS) punishment or torments. Instead of warning his readers of such a horrificly monstrous fate, as he should have been morally obligated to do if it were a real possibility, instead he conveys the relatively utterly lame & insignificant info that these angelic beings will be kept in chains until judgement day. OTOH, consider:

"Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he [Jesus] used aionion kolasin..." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd3.html

"Nyssa defined the vision of God promised there as "life without end, eternal incorruption, undying beatitude [ten ateleuteton zoen, ten aidion aphtharsian , ten athanaton makarioteta]." ("Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in ..." By Jaroslav Pelikan, p.165 @): https://books.google.ca/books?id=3V...5DMMQ6AEIODAE#v=onepage&q=ateleuteton&f=false

5. unfading (1 Pet.1:4; 5:4)...Peter uses this word of an endless inheritance reserved in heaven & a crown of glory. It is never used of the endless pain, punishment or torments that anyone will receive. Can it be denied that this would have been a superior word (over aion & aionios) to use to express such a horrific destiny if Love Omnipotent actually had such in store for anyone? Wouldn't He want to express warnings about it in the clearest ways possible?

6. found no place for repentance (Heb.12:17)...is used in Heb.12:17 of the loss of a finite earthly blessing..."he found no place of repentance, although having earnestly sought it with tears". Never is it used regarding those in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire, or eschatological punishment. Never do we read of those cast into any "hell" that they will not (or never) find a place of repentance, even though they earnestly seek it with tears. God was quite capable of expressing such in His Holy Scriptures. But rather than give such a warning, as Love Omnipotent should have if such an unbelievably horrific future awaited anyone, instead we are told of the relatively lame loss of a finite earthly blessing. Such a waste of words if endless punishment were really true.

7. In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna

Nicolaus Mourer said:

All of this, but you still cannot provide scripture that says that those in hell ever get out or are delivered*. There is not one scripture at all about saying that any who are condemned will be able to eventually leave hell, not one.

Go ahead, and make the claim that "to the ages of ages" is a finite amount of time, but the only way you can prove that is based upon your own interpretation of the language, which is pure semantics and doesn't really hold water. To base an entire doctrine (that people don't spend eternity in hell) on that is not a strong argument at all.

Provide me one verse that says that a person that is condemned in hell is able to be saved out of it. If you are able to, I repent from my doctrine and admit I was wrong.

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ClementofA said:

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them alive for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.



I think it was a superior word to use relative to the ambiguous aion & aionios, if God was a believer in endless punishment. Moreover, as opposed to aion and aionios (which are often used of finite duration), God had a number of other words & expressions available that would also have better served to express endless punishment, if Love Omnipotent were a believer of such. But He never uses such of eschatological punishment. So the reasonable conclusion is that Love Omnipotent rejected using such words and expressions of a final destiny of endless punishment because He knew better & He rejected the notion that anyone will endure endless punishment. Those words & expresssions are:

1. no end (Lk.1:33)...this expression is used of God's kingdom having "no end". It is never used of anyone's torments or punishment. We never read of anyone receiving torments that will have "no end". This unambiguous phrase, "no end", would have been a superior choice to the ambiguous words aion & aionion, if Love Omnipotent had a belief in endless torments or annihilation. But He rejected its use in expressing such a fate.

2. endless (1 Tim.1:4)...Again if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments, why didn't He use this word to express it, instead of the ambiguous aion & aionion, which often refer to finite durations in ancient Greek usage?

3. never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment. If Jude believed in endless punishment, he had the perfect opportunity at Jude 1:6 by simply adding that the angels would suffer the judgement of eternal (AIDIOS) punishment or torments. Instead of warning his readers of such a horrificly monstrous fate, as he should have been morally obligated to do if it were a real possibility, instead he conveys the relatively utterly lame & insignificant info that these angelic beings will be kept in chains until judgement day. OTOH, consider:

"Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he [Jesus] used aionion kolasin..." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd3.html

"Nyssa defined the vision of God promised there as "life without end, eternal incorruption, undying beatitude [ten ateleuteton zoen, ten aidion aphtharsian , ten athanaton makarioteta]." ("Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in ..." By Jaroslav Pelikan, p.165 @): https://books.google.ca/books?id=3V...5DMMQ6AEIODAE#v=onepage&q=ateleuteton&f=false

5. unfading (1 Pet.1:4; 5:4)...Peter uses this word of an endless inheritance reserved in heaven & a crown of glory. It is never used of the endless pain, punishment or torments that anyone will receive. Can it be denied that this would have been a superior word (over aion & aionios) to use to express such a horrific destiny if Love Omnipotent actually had such in store for anyone? Wouldn't He want to express warnings about it in the clearest ways possible?

6. found no place for repentance (Heb.12:17)...is used in Heb.12:17 of the loss of a finite earthly blessing..."he found no place of repentance, although having earnestly sought it with tears". Never is it used regarding those in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire, or eschatological punishment. Never do we read of those cast into any "hell" that they will not (or never) find a place of repentance, even though they earnestly seek it with tears. God was quite capable of expressing such in His Holy Scriptures. But rather than give such a warning, as Love Omnipotent should have if such an unbelievably horrific future awaited anyone, instead we are told of the relatively lame loss of a finite earthly blessing. Such a waste of words if endless punishment were really true.

7. In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna

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It is just as ridiculous and untrue that hell will last forever as is the claim that anyone comes out of hell and gets a 2nd chance. You go to hell, pay the price as God determines--according to their works.

2Co_11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

God sets the time sent there and it is until there is nothing left.

Mal_4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

As long as there is a sinner living--there is sin.

Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


ReRev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. v 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

ALL things are made new. Hell will not last forever. God is love and He is justice. Justice has a limit. After that it becomes unjust. To torture a 14 year old for eternity for stealing $5.00 is completely unjust. He would be serving the same sentence as those who have killed millions. That would not be according to their works.

mmksparbud said:

ALL things are made new. Hell will not last forever. God is love and He is justice. Justice has a limit. After that it becomes unjust. To torture a 14 year old for eternity for stealing $5.00 is completely unjust. He would be serving the same sentence as those who have killed millions. That would not be according to their works.

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Mercy triumphs over judgement. Love will triumph over justice & law. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Where sin abounds, grace super-abounds, grace exceeds sin. Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

ClementofA said:

Mercy triumphs over judgement. Love will triumph over justice & law. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Where sin abounds, grace super-abounds, grace exceeds sin. Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

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You have never provided one single, solitary verse that makes any such statement. All you have ever done is post the opinions of others and yourself, but not one verse that states there is salvation after death. You've been asked for it by others also--but there has never been any biblical proof.

mmksparbud said:

Num_24:20 And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and said, Amalek was the first of the nations; but his latter end shall be that he perish for ever.

So should be dead forever---not in hell forever.

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New American Standard Bible
And he looked at Amalek and took up his discourse and said, "Amalek was the first of the nations, But his end shall be destruction."

Nations never go to "hell".

Individuals never go to "hell forever".

"More literally, But his latter end shall be even to one perishing—i.e., he shall come to the position of one who is perishing. The destruction of the Amalekites began in the reign of Saul (1Samuel 14:48; 1Samuel 15:7), was continued by David (1Samuel 27:8; 1Samuel 30:17; 2Samuel 8:12), and was completed by Hezekiah (1Chronicles 4:42-43)." https://biblehub.com/commentaries/numbers/24-20.htm

mmksparbud said:

Num 24:24 And ships shall come from the coast of Chittim, and shall afflict Asshur, and shall afflict Eber, and he also shall perish for ever.

Another that stays dead forever--not in hell living forever.

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New American Standard Bible
"But ships shall come from the coast of Kittim, And they shall afflict Asshur and will afflict Eber; So they also will come to destruction."

Empires never go to "hell".

"He also shall perish for ever — Not the Hebrews; they shall have a better end: all Israel shall be saved; but the afflicter or scourge of Asshur and Eber; namely, the Grecian and Roman empire."

"he also shall perish—that is, the conqueror of Asher and Eber, namely, the Greek and Roman empires."

"and he also shall perish for ever: not Eber, but those that afflicted him, even the Romans; and indeed both monarchies, Grecian and Roman, are prophesied of as what should be destroyed, and that by a son of Eber, the Messiah; the stone cut out of the mountain without hands, said to break in pieces all these kingdoms, Daniel 2:44 and not Rome Pagan only, but Rome Papal also, antichrist and all the antichristian powers, 2 Thessalonians 2:8. and so the Targum of Jonathan says, that the end both of the one and the other, that is, that shall afflict Eber, shall be, to fall by the hand of the King Messiah, and they shall perish for ever."

"Asshur and Eber. The two names appear to denote the world powers of the east; but the exact meaning of the name Eber is quite unknown."

"And he also shall come to destruction] ‘he’ apparently refers to Asshur and Eber considered as one nation. After carrying the Kenites captive, Asshur will itself be destroyed by invaders from the west. There is, however, no support for this in history, unless Asshur be given the unusual meaning (which it bears in Ezra 6:22) of the Persian empire, which was overthrown by Alexander."

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/numbers/24-24.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

mmksparbud said:

You have never provided one single, solitary verse that makes any such statement.

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This statement i posted is in the Bible:

Mercy triumphs over judgement.

You might want to do an internet search, if you don't know where to find it.

---------------

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

ClementofA said:

New American Standard Bible
And he looked at Amalek and took up his discourse and said, "Amalek was the first of the nations, But his end shall be destruction."

Nations never go to "hell".

Individuals never go to "hell forever".

"More literally, But his latter end shall be even to one perishing—i.e., he shall come to the position of one who is perishing. The destruction of the Amalekites began in the reign of Saul (1Samuel 14:48; 1Samuel 15:7), was continued by David (1Samuel 27:8; 1Samuel 30:17; 2Samuel 8:12), and was completed by Hezekiah (1Chronicles 4:42-43)." https://biblehub.com/commentaries/numbers/24-20.htm




New American Standard Bible
"But ships shall come from the coast of Kittim, And they shall afflict Asshur and will afflict Eber; So they also will come to destruction."

Empires never go to "hell".

"He also shall perish for ever — Not the Hebrews; they shall have a better end: all Israel shall be saved; but the afflicter or scourge of Asshur and Eber; namely, the Grecian and Roman empire."

"he also shall perish—that is, the conqueror of Asher and Eber, namely, the Greek and Roman empires."

"and he also shall perish for ever: not Eber, but those that afflicted him, even the Romans; and indeed both monarchies, Grecian and Roman, are prophesied of as what should be destroyed, and that by a son of Eber, the Messiah; the stone cut out of the mountain without hands, said to break in pieces all these kingdoms, Daniel 2:44 and not Rome Pagan only, but Rome Papal also, antichrist and all the antichristian powers, 2 Thessalonians 2:8. and so the Targum of Jonathan says, that the end both of the one and the other, that is, that shall afflict Eber, shall be, to fall by the hand of the King Messiah, and they shall perish for ever."

"Asshur and Eber. The two names appear to denote the world powers of the east; but the exact meaning of the name Eber is quite unknown."

"And he also shall come to destruction] ‘he’ apparently refers to Asshur and Eber considered as one nation. After carrying the Kenites captive, Asshur will itself be destroyed by invaders from the west. There is, however, no support for this in history, unless Asshur be given the unusual meaning (which it bears in Ezra 6:22) of the Persian empire, which was overthrown by Alexander."

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/numbers/24-24.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

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Amalek was the king of the Amalekites. They were named for him and he fought with Moses.
Exo 17:8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim.

Exo 17:9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.

You need to get into the word more and get away from these people who do not have a clue what it says, much less what it means.

You have still not provided any scripture that states there is salvation after hell.

ClementofA said:

This statement i posted is in the Bible:

Mercy triumphs over judgement.

You might want to do an internet search, if you don't know where to find it.

---------------

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Click to expand...

Then post the scripture, I do not read the opinions of these people who have no clue about the bible and offer nothing but endless opinions.

mmksparbud said:

Amalek was the king of the Amalekites. They were named for him and he fought with Moses.
Exo 17:8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim.

Exo 17:9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.

You need to get into the word more and get away from these people who do not have a clue what it says, much less what it means.

Click to expand...

Amalek is called a nation in the Scripture being discussed:

New American Standard Bible
Num.24:20 And he looked at Amalek and took up his discourse and said, "Amalek was the first of the nations, But his end shall be destruction."

Nations never go to "hell".

Individuals never go to "hell forever".

"More literally, But his latter end shall be even to one perishing—i.e., he shall come to the position of one who is perishing. The destruction of the Amalekites began in the reign of Saul (1Samuel 14:48; 1Samuel 15:7), was continued by David (1Samuel 27:8; 1Samuel 30:17; 2Samuel 8:12), and was completed by Hezekiah (1Chronicles 4:42-43)." https://biblehub.com/commentaries/numbers/24-20.htm


Furthermore:

"So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth." (Gen.6:13)

The "end" of all people was "destruction" by God (Gen.6:13). This already happened. Yet they are not annihilated forever. And they will be resurrected. This shows that an "end" that is "destruction" is not an irreversible "destruction". It was only a temporary "destruction". Compare Num.24:20 above.

ClementofA said:

Amalek is called a nation in the Scripture being discussed:

New American Standard Bible
Num.24:20 And he looked at Amalek and took up his discourse and said, "Amalek was the first of the nations, But his end shall be destruction."

Nations never go to "hell".

Individuals never go to "hell forever".

"More literally, But his latter end shall be even to one perishing—i.e., he shall come to the position of one who is perishing. The destruction of the Amalekites began in the reign of Saul (1Samuel 14:48; 1Samuel 15:7), was continued by David (1Samuel 27:8; 1Samuel 30:17; 2Samuel 8:12), and was completed by Hezekiah (1Chronicles 4:42-43)." https://biblehub.com/commentaries/numbers/24-20.htm


Furthermore:

"So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth." (Gen.6:13)

The "end" of all people was "destruction" by God (Gen.6:13). This already happened. Yet they are not annihilated forever. And they will be resurrected. This shows that an "end" that is "destruction" is not an irreversible "destruction". It was only a temporary "destruction". Compare Num.24:20 above.

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Amalek was the first of the nations; not the first nation in the world, nor the chief and principal for numbers, riches, or strength, but the first that made war with Israel, as all the three Targums paraphrase it, as they did, see Exodus 17:8,

but his latter end shall be that he perish for ever; this was threatened to them by the Lord upon that battle, and is confirmed by this prophecy of Balaam: and after this, orders were given to Israel to blot out their remembrance, Deuteronomy 25:19, and which, in a good measure, though not completely, was done in the times of Saul, 1 Samuel 15:8 and after that they were distressed by David, 1 Samuel 27:9 and the rest of them were smitten by the sons of Simeon, in the days of Hezekiah, 1 Chronicles 4:41, after which we hear of them no more: Amalek may be considered as a type of antichrist, the son of perdition, who shall go into it, shall come to his end, and there shall be none to help him; which will be true of all the antichristian party, the enemies of Christ, who will be destroyed by him, and perish eternally; see Daniel 11:45.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Whatever you want to make of this---there is not one single word about anyone being saved after death and going to hell!!

mmksparbud said:

It is just as ridiculous and untrue that hell will last forever as is the claim that anyone comes out of hell and gets a 2nd chance. You go to hell, pay the price as God determines--according to their works.

2Co_11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

God sets the time sent there and it is until there is nothing left.

Mal_4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

As long as there is a sinner living--there is sin.

Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


ReRev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. v 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

ALL things are made new. Hell will not last forever. God is love and He is justice. Justice has a limit. After that it becomes unjust. To torture a 14 year old for eternity for stealing $5.00 is completely unjust. He would be serving the same sentence as those who have killed millions. That would not be according to their works.

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We agree here at least in part, we all will reap what we have sown, no more, no less.
However scripture also states that once we have reaped what we have sown (paid the last farthing) we are set free from the prison house.

I take it you believe in annihilation and not eternal torment.
There is a partial truth to annihilation but it is not the annihilation of man per say but rather the annihilation of the old man and all the works thereof.

Ripheus27 said:

So, years ago, I saw an argument on this site that went, "The wages of sin are death; death/destruction is not continuing existence, either in torment or not; therefore, the wages of sin are not eternal conscious torment." Now, it struck me a while later that Apollyon the Destroyer in the Book of Revelation has locust-servants who cause inescapable (if temporary) torment and, very precisely, not death. So, it seems there is clear Biblical precedent for connecting the concept/word "death/destruction" with, nevertheless, continuous, or at least continuing, pain.

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Ok for argument sake lets say eternal torment is correct and people will spend eternity weeping and gnashing their teeth.

Now if this is so how then can these scriptures ever be fulfilled?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. v 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Pneuma3 said:

We agree here at least in part, we all will reap what we have sown, no more, no less.
However scripture also states that once we have reaped what we have sown (paid the last farthing) we are set free from the prison house.

I take it you believe in annihilation and not eternal torment.
There is a partial truth to annihilation but it is not the annihilation of man per say but rather the annihilation of the old man and all the works thereof.

Click to expand...

Pneuma3 said:

We agree here at least in part, we all will reap what we have sown, no more, no less.
However scripture also states that once we have reaped what we have sown (paid the last farthing) we are set free from the prison house.

I take it you believe in annihilation and not eternal torment.
There is a partial truth to annihilation but it is not the annihilation of man per say but rather the annihilation of the old man and all the works thereof.

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Yes--annihilation.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There is no getting out of hell. No one has produced one verse declaring it.

mmksparbud said:

Yes--annihilation.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There is no getting out of hell. No one has produced one verse declaring it.

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Do you not believe that Jesus was resurrected, And that He paid the price of sin which is DEATH?

Ro.14:9

9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

We read in Rev.1:17-18

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

1 Pet.3:18-22

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.



1 Pet.4:5-6

5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Is.61:1-3

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.



Heb.2:14-15

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Eph.4:8-10

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Pneuma3 said:

Do you not believe that Jesus was resurrected, And that He paid the price of sin which is DEATH?

Ro.14:9

9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

We read in Rev.1:17-18

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

1 Pet.3:18-22

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.



1 Pet.4:5-6

5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Is.61:1-3

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.



Heb.2:14-15

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Eph.4:8-10

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

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That is what He came to do. Jesus was not a sinner. He took the sins of the world and paid the price for sin which is death--

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

He paid that price for all---but they must believe and accept Him otherwise they die in their sins and must pay the price for themselves, which is death. God does not force salvation on anyone. We have the choice.
Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Pro_8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Where is the verse that states there is a 2nd chance after death?