Zechariah 14 speaks of the New Jerusalem

DavidPT said:

It appears to if only using the book of Revelation to try and determine this, yet Isaiah 60 seems to prove otherwise. Isaiah 60 seems to prove the millennium begins with the NHNE, and not that the NHNE follows it instead. Because if it follows it instead, that means one has to apply Isaiah 60:12 to all of eternity, rather than a period of time in eternity, such as the thousand years and satan's little season.

These nations that can be destroyed during the NHNE, these can't be nations of immortals. They have to be nations of mortals. No mortal can live forever without first putting on immortality. Therefore, IMO, Isaiah 60:12 better fits the thousand years and satan's little season.

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How do you get the above to line up with 2 Peter 3:10-13?

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DavidPT said:

It appears to if only using the book of Revelation to try and determine this, yet Isaiah 60 seems to prove otherwise. Isaiah 60 seems to prove the millennium begins with the NHNE, and not that the NHNE follows it instead. Because if it follows it instead, that means one has to apply Isaiah 60:12 to all of eternity, rather than a period of time in eternity, such as the thousand years and satan's little season.

These nations that can be destroyed during the NHNE, these can't be nations of immortals. They have to be nations of mortals. No mortal can live forever without first putting on immortality. Therefore, IMO, Isaiah 60:12 better fits the thousand years and satan's little season.

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How do you get the above to line up with 2 Peter 3:10-13?

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BABerean2 said:

How do you get the above to line up with 2 Peter 3:10-13?

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Like I have shown in a few posts, the timing of Isaiah 60:12 is during the NHNE. Obviously 2 Peter 3:10-13 precedes the NHNE, yet leads to it. That places Isaiah 60:12 after the time of 2 Peter 3:10-13. How do you get it to line up then? Do you think nations will be under the threat of annihilation all throughout eternity? And these people that are destroyed with these nations, what happens to them, say 10 billion years into eternity, and that they refuse to serve? The great white throne judgment would already be way in the past at that point. So why are they still under the threat of annihilation 10 billion years into eternity, per this example? Wouldn't it be far more reasonable to place a specific amount of time in eternity set aside for this? That being the thousand years and satan's little season.

If one can prove by showing Isaiah 60:12 does not involve the NHNE whatsoever, then I guess that debunks my argument. But until then---my argument stands IMO.

claninja said:

Heaven and earth flee AFTER the millennium when the Great White Throne Judgment occurs
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away

The new heaven and earth appear AFTER the old heaven and earth pass away
Revelation 22:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away

So in that sense, I don't agree that the new heaven and New earth begin with the millennium.

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Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

If you are correct, one then has to interpret this verse to be meaning forever. As in this threat above is valid throughout all of eternity. Any nations that can perish though, they can't be nations of immortals. One then has to explain how mortals are living throughout eternity without having to put on immortality in order to do so.

DavidPT said:

If one can prove by showing Isaiah 60:12 does not involve the NHNE whatsoever, then I guess that debunks my argument. But until then---my argument stands IMO.

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Why don't we begin by not taking that one verse out of its context.

Making a statement of fact does not make it necessarily fit into a chronological sequence.

It I say I was born in 1955, it is a true statement, even if I make it when I am 100 years old.

We find the "nations" and "wrath" and "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.

Can anyone say that the nations, or their peoples who oppose God will not be destroyed, no matter when that statement is made?

Look at a similar statement found below.

Rev 22:15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
(They are outside of New Jerusalem, because they will be in hell.)


Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; For your light has come! And the glory of the LORD is risen upon you.
Isa 60:2 For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, And deep darkness the people; But the LORD will arise over you, And His glory will be seen upon you.
Isa 60:3 The Gentiles shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.
Isa 60:4 "Lift up your eyes all around, and see: They all gather together, they come to you; Your sons shall come from afar, And your daughters shall be nursed at your side.
Isa 60:5 Then you shall see and become radiant, And your heart shall swell with joy; Because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you, The wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you.
Isa 60:6 The multitude of camels shall cover your land, The dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; All those from Sheba shall come; They shall bring gold and incense, And they shall proclaim the praises of the LORD.
Isa 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together to you, The rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you; They shall ascend with acceptance on My altar, And I will glorify the house of My glory.
Isa 60:8 "Who are these who fly like a cloud, And like doves to their roosts?
Isa 60:9 Surely the coastlands shall wait for Me; And the ships of Tarshish will come first, To bring your sons from afar, Their silver and their gold with them, To the name of the LORD your God, And to the Holy One of Israel, Because He has glorified you.
Isa 60:10 "The sons of foreigners shall build up your walls, And their kings shall minister to you; For in My wrath I struck you, But in My favor I have had mercy on you.
Isa 60:11 Therefore your gates shall be open continually; They shall not be shut day or night, That men may bring to you the wealth of the Gentiles, And their kings in procession.

Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom which will not serve you shall perish, And those nations shall be utterly ruined.
(This is a true statement, no matter where it is found in the Bible.)

Isa 60:13 "The glory of Lebanon shall come to you, The cypress, the pine, and the box tree together, To beautify the place of My sanctuary; And I will make the place of My feet glorious.
Isa 60:14 Also the sons of those who afflicted you Shall come bowing to you, And all those who despised you shall fall prostrate at the soles of your feet; And they shall call you The City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 60:15 "Whereas you have been forsaken and hated, So that no one went through you, I will make you an eternal excellence, A joy of many generations.
Isa 60:16 You shall drink the milk of the Gentiles, And milk the breast of kings; You shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
Isa 60:17 "Instead of bronze I will bring gold, Instead of iron I will bring silver, Instead of wood, bronze, And instead of stones, iron. I will also make your officers peace, And your magistrates righteousness.
Isa 60:18 Violence shall no longer be heard in your land, Neither wasting nor destruction within your borders; But you shall call your walls Salvation, And your gates Praise.
Isa 60:19 "The sun shall no longer be your light by day, Nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you; But the LORD will be to you an everlasting light, And your God your glory.
Isa 60:20 Your sun shall no longer go down, Nor shall your moon withdraw itself; For the LORD will be your everlasting light, And the days of your mourning shall be ended.
Isa 60:21 Also your people shall all be righteous; They shall inherit the land forever, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified.
Isa 60:22 A little one shall become a thousand, And a small one a strong nation. I, the LORD, will hasten it in its time."

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claninja said:

So your suggestion to reconcile the contradiction that you raise about Isaiah 60 and the NHNE, is that the NHNE must be in the millennium, where death still occurs, otherwise, how can nations perish for not worshipping God after death is done away with, correct?

The problem is that this doesn't correct the contradiction, it just creates another: the OHOE pass away AFTER the millennium at the great white throne judgment, therefore how the can the NHNE exist before the OHOE pass away?

Our current contradictions that need to be reconciled:
On one hand, how can the NHNE exist BEFORE the great white throne judgment/the OHOE pass away, but on the other, how can nations still perish in the NHNE if it is AFTER the great white throne judgment?

I believe futurism has a much harder time answering these questions. But I am still interested if you can soundly reconcile them.

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I just came across the following interesting link. There are some links in that article to other links which I haven't gotten around to checking into yet though. Maybe something useful in this article for all of us to consider, regardless which side of the debate we might presently be on?

https://creationconcept.info/GR/I60R21.html

claninja said:

disagree, the "no more curse" in Jerusalem for Zechariah 14:11 is the same as the "no more curse" in Revelation 22:3. There is no scripture that differentiates the curse. Thus, creating a difference in the curse is an assumption.

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claninja, the assumption is from your part in the form of the Septuagint. btw, there is no Septuagint for the new testament. The Septuagint is an early Greek translation of books from the Hebrew bible and was made before Jesus's time. So it does not contain Revelation.

The KJV of Revelation 22:3 does say "no more curse", nonetheless.

But differently than the Septuagint, the KJV for Zechariah 14, say no more utter destruction. Which makes sense given the number of times Jerusalem has been invaded.

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Which is during the thousand year reign. Which in Zechariah 14, Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron - because there will be still be sin. An example of ruling with a rod of iron is in Zechariah 14:18-19.
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After the thousand year reign is over, and Satan's last uprising, followed by the Great White Throne judgement - is the creation of the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:4 of the KJV contains the specifics of what there will be no more of...

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

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I don't think you are going to be able to get around the thousand years beginning in Zechariah 14 - trying to do so, based on Revelation 22:3.

BUT.... You might could have a good argument that Revelation 22 is a picture of the Jerusalem following the Lord's return to this present earth, in Zechariah 14. Because in Revelation 22:2 - "for the healing of the nations."

But not the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 following the thousand years and the Great White Throne Judgement.

Which would mean I would have to modify my argument that the no more curse in Revelation 22:3 is not "no more death" (as that "no more" is in the New Jerusalem), but no more curse of being cutoff of the benefits of the tree of life to heal them during the millennium, whoever is in their natural bodies during that time.

I think I would look at Ezekiel 47:12 and compare it to Revelation 22:2.

I have been searching the old testament for a passage I read about during the messianic age about men being considered young at 100 years old - but I can't seem to find it. Does anyone know?

Douggg said:

Which in Zechariah 14, Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron - because there will be still be sin. An example of ruling with a rod of iron is in Zechariah 14:18-19.

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Based on Psalm 2 the Son destroys the flawed pottery with the rod of iron.

He does not correct it like a schoolmaster.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

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DavidPT said:

I agree. The question is, when is verse 11 fulfilled? It can't be fulfilled before verse 2 is fulfilled.

16And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall be left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem, shall even come up every year to worship the king, the Lord Almighty, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall come to pass, that whosoever of all the families of the earth shall not come up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the Lord Almighty, even these shall be added to the others. 18And if the family of Egypt shall not go up, nor come; then upon them shall be the overthrow with which the Lord shall smite all the nations, whichever of them shall not come up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the sin of Egypt, and the sin of all the nations, whosoever shall not come up to keep the feast of tabernacles. https://biblehub.com/sep/zechariah/14.htm

What about this part, in relation to verse 11? If verse 11 can't be fulfilled until verse 2 is fulfilled first, then neither can verse 16-19 be fulfilled until verse 2 is fulfilled first.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever of all the families of the earth shall not come up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the Lord Almighty, even these shall be added to the others.

What happened to the others meant here?

12And this shall be the overthrow with which the Lord will smite all the nations, as many as have fought against Jerusalem; their flesh shall consume away while they are standing upon their feet, and their eyes shall melt out of their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. https://biblehub.com/sep/zechariah/14.htm


We have to keep in mind what verse 16 indicates----And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall be left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem

When did they come against Jerusalem?

2And I will gather all the Gentiles to Jerusalem to war, and the city shall be taken, and the houses plundered, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, but the rest of my people shall not be utterly cut off from the city. https://biblehub.com/sep/zechariah/14.htm

Apparently then, Jerusalem is come against twice in Zechariah 14. When it is come against the 2nd time around, it is apparently meaning after the thousand years, thus is meaning Revelation 20:7-9.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

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its both a prophecy for their present time AND for a future time .it overlaps as do many prophecies

BABerean2 said:

Based on Psalm 2 the Son destroys the flawed pottery with the rod of iron.

He does not correct it like a schoolmaster.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

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Go to Daniel 2:35 and Daniel 2:44 for the Psalms 2:9 application.

When Jesus returns, He brings the Kingdom of God here to earth, to have dominion over all nations. Which Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

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What I have been saying to BaB2 is that 7th trumpet is the go signal to start taking away Satan's kingdom of Mystery Babylon the Great having dominion over the kingdoms of this world. Which begins with Michael and his angels casting Satan and his angels down to earth.

Douggg said:

Go to Daniel 2:35 and Daniel 2:44 for the Psalms 2:9 application.

When Jesus returns, He brings the Kingdom of God here to earth, to have dominion over all nations. Which Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

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Do you realize that "for ever", is a lot longer than 1,000 years ?

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

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BABerean2 said:

Do you realize that "for ever", is a lot longer than 1,000 years ?

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

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Forever means it will never be replaced. This earth will be replaced, but not the Kingdom of God.

Douggg said:

Forever means it will never be replaced. This earth will be replaced, but not the Kingdom of God.

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And when does the fire come?

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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BABerean2 said:

And when does the fire come?

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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At His Second Coming.

Zechariah 14 speaks of New Jerusalem.

The way it is written uses Persian terms like Azal meaninh eternity.

There will be neither day or night but there will be light alludes to a realm outside of the natural day/night cycke realm.

The mountain represents congregation both old and new of the redeemed as one side of the mountain on the South and the other on the North and further more depicting the old and new Covenant redeemed as the former and latter sea.

Douggg said:

At His Second Coming.

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Amen,

Give that man a cigar!

If the fire comes at His Second Coming, based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, you have just revealed the timing of the passage below...


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Also notice that the fire comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

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