Did Jesus Keep the Letter of the Law, the Spirit of the Law or both?

expos4ever said:

Did Jesus not tell Jews that all foods are clean (Mark 7)?
Did Jesus not instruct people to not stone a woman caught in adultery?

Both these things are against the Law of Moses.

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Actually he did not instruct people to not stone a woman caught in adultery, simply said 'you who are without sin, throw the first stone'.

Yes, the two greatest commandments hang all the Laws. Yet, if you do not know the Torah (First Five Books) in which it's referring to, you will not know the extent they cover. You have to remember, the Messiah was teaching the Judahites, they KNEW the Law of Yehueh. Therefore when they heard Yehushua speaking in this manner, they KNEW all that was within the two Laws and how it would cover. If you've not been a student of the Torah, even to a small degree, you will not understand how this applies. It goes well beyond the 10 commandments that the churches teach. ( many don't even do them).
Yes, the Messiah kept the fullness of the Law. HE was the WORD/ TORAH made flesh. HE walked out the Torah to perfection, as He was the unblemished Lamb slain for the world full of sinners. As Isaiah 11:2 states of the fullness of Yehueh that will be placed within the coming Messiah that no man has ever had! With the FULLNESS of Yehueh upon the Messiah, how then could He keep anything less than the perfect Law of Yehueh, seeing how Yehueh Himself could not dwell with man after Adams fall into sin. It wasn't until the Messiah came that HE could once again dwell with man as HE had done in the beginning. this is why the veil was torn (no longer needed a priest among men, bc Yehushua was the high priest) and no longer needed a temple for Yehueh to dwell within, bc HE could now dwell within man, bc of the cover of Yehushua Messiah's final sacrifice for sin. THERfore, we are no longer slaves to sin, we can be set free by the acceptance of the Messiah and living by the Law which was given at the beginning of time. this would not nullify the Law, only pardoning the sin done against the Law. Scripture says that if it were not for the Law, how then would one know sin?? Therefore, it does not nullify the Law, only the sin against the Law. then when repentance is acknowledged and then asked for, it's granted by the covering through the Messiah.

the last verse in my post i was trying to type, was Romans 3:31.

expos4ever said:

I believe that most, but not all, scholars think that Jesus's disruption in the Temple was a symbolic act, proclaiming the imminent end of the temple system.

To me, this effectively violates the Law of Moses since Temple sacrifice was a big part of the Law.

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Well that is the nub of the matter. The Mosaic Law is inferior to the Law of the Spirit.

When the two came into conflict, as when Jesus healed on the Sabbath day, there was only ever one winner.

Luke 13
10 Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. 11 And just then there appeared a woman with a spirit that had crippled her for eighteen years. She was bent over and was quite unable to stand up straight. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said, “Woman, you are set free from your ailment.” 13 When he laid his hands on her, immediately she stood up straight and began praising God. 14 But the leader of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had cured on the sabbath, kept saying to the crowd, “There are six days on which work ought to be done; come on those days and be cured, and not on the sabbath day.” 15 But the Lord answered him and said, “You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger, and lead it away to give it water? 16 And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen long years, be set free from this bondage on the sabbath day?” 17 When he said this, all his opponents were put to shame; and the entire crowd was rejoicing at all the wonderful things that he was doing.

Ironically, The crippled woman is actually Israel under the Law. So that is what being born under the Law really amounts to. Was Jesus a cripple? Absolutely not.

gordonhooker said:

Actually he did not instruct people to not stone a woman caught in adultery, simply said 'you who are without sin, throw the first stone'.

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I agree, but come on now. Jesus knows what the Law says and He is effectively engineering the situation to result in a violation of the Law of Moses. And we all know that the Law of Moses requires stoning, no matter what the moral condition of the stoners.

Jesus is very deliberate in His actions - through this event, and others, He clearly declares - whether by word or by deed - that the time of the Law of Moses is coming to an end.

Jesus kept the law as God issued it in spirit and in truth. However the law makers... expanded the laws when ever someone tried to take advantage of a perceived loop hole. and over the years the law became a colossal burden which kept people from God rather than keeping the pure so they maybe with God.

While the pharisees and makers of the law would see him as a law breaker, Jesus understood the original intent and purpose of the law and kept the law of God not the traditions of man.

I did a Bible search in both the NIV and KJV for:
Spirit of the law (match EXACT phrase)

Here's what I got for results.
Sorry, we didn’t find any results for your search.

What does that tell us? (no such thing) ???

Saint Steven said:

I did a Bible search in both the NIV and KJV for:
Spirit of the law (match EXACT phrase)

Here's what I got for results.
Sorry, we didn’t find any results for your search.

What does that tell us? (no such thing) ???

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That dichotomy comes from 2 Corinthians 3:4-6,

"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Same Law, different medium.

expos4ever said:

I agree, but come on now. Jesus knows what the Law says and He is effectively engineering the situation to result in a violation of the Law of Moses. And we all know that the Law of Moses requires stoning, no matter what the moral condition of the stoners.

Jesus is very deliberate in His actions - through this event, and others, He clearly declares - whether by word or by deed - that the time of the Law of Moses is coming to an end.

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Yes that is true but that is not what you said. You put words in Jeses’ mouth that were not the case. If you preach like I do then you don’t do that.

expos4ever said:

I agree, but come on now. Jesus knows what the Law says and He is effectively engineering the situation to result in a violation of the Law of Moses. And we all know that the Law of Moses requires stoning, no matter what the moral condition of the stoners.

Jesus is very deliberate in His actions - through this event, and others, He clearly declares - whether by word or by deed - that the time of the Law of Moses is coming to an end.

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An example of Jesus telling someone to break the Sabbath.

John 5:8-10
Jesus said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.” Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day. So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”

The Pharisees were correct in this instance, the man cured by Jesus should not have picked up his pallet.

Sabertooth said:

That dichotomy comes from 2 Corinthians 3:4-6,

"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Same Law, different medium.

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Do you believe the letter kills?

Sabertooth said:

That dichotomy comes from 2 Corinthians 3:4-6,

"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Same Law, different medium.

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Thanks, but my point is, there is no "Spirit of the law".

The scripture you quote, I am very familiar with. It is talking about two different covenants.
1) The ministry of the Spirit (nothing about law)
2) The ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone (the TCs) the letter of the law, the transitory minister that brought condemnation and death which has no glory now.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

This thread really boils down to reading Scripture.

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

expos4ever said:

I agree, but come on now. Jesus knows what the Law says and He is effectively engineering the situation to result in a violation of the Law of Moses. And we all know that the Law of Moses requires stoning, no matter what the moral condition of the stoners.

Jesus is very deliberate in His actions - through this event, and others, He clearly declares - whether by word or by deed - that the time of the Law of Moses is coming to an end.

Click to expand...

I agree. But I literally laughed out loud at your phrase, "... the moral condition of the stoners." (so funny)

A71 said:

This thread really boils down to reading Scripture.

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

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Right, I agree. This is quoting the Apostle John, not the Pharisees. Also worth a look...

John 9:16
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

The Lord, as an observant Jew, was obligated to observe all the mitzvot given in the Torah (or more specifically all the mitzvot that would have been applicable to Him). The Lord Jesus therefore kept both the letter and the spirit of the Torah.

It's important to remember, though, that the Torah is not a universal law, but a particular law. Torah was given exclusively to the Jewish people as part of the Covenant God established with them at Mt. Horeb. Jesus, as a Jew, was obligated to observe Torah; if He did not then He would have sinned. In other words for a Jewish male to not come to Jerusalem during one of the mandatory pilgrim feasts would have been a sin, but it was not sinful for a Gentile (even a Gentile God-fearer) to not come to Jerusalem on one of the mandatory pilgrim feasts because Gentiles were under no compulsion to observe Torah. Nor was it sinful for a Jewish woman not to come, since the command says:

"Three times a year all your males shall appear before the Lord your God at the place that he will choose: at the festival of unleavened bread, at the festival of weeks, and at the festival of booths. They shall not appear before the Lord empty-handed; all shall give as they are able, according to the blessing of the Lord your God that he has given you." (Deuteronomy 16:16-17)

Thus the command applies only to men.

This is just given as an example.

Jesus did not only keep the Torah, as God had given it to the Jewish people; but He was in all ways perfectly righteous in accordance with all of God's Law (not just Torah). He was therefore perfectly obedient and righteous in all ways, and in all ways without sin.

-CryptoLutheran

A71 said:

Well that is the nub of the matter. The Mosaic Law is inferior to the Law of the Spirit. …

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God gave the law to the Israelites alone through Moses. The law of the Spirit stands in opposition to the law God gave to the Israelites through Moses. (the law of sin and death) There is a law of the Spirit, there is no Spirit of the law.

Romans 8:1-3
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

I voted "spirit of the Law" because I do not believe that Jesus was trying to establish a new religion or even a new covenant --- he was interested in the reform of both temple and rabbinical Judaism, especially the first.

klutedavid said:

I voted that Jesus obeyed the Spirit of the law but not the letter of the law.

Can I prove that Jesus did not obey the letter of the law?

Well, yes I can.

Leviticus 20:10
If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, one who commits adultery with his friend’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

The letter of the law is crystal clear on adultery, an adulterer must be put to death.

Yet we find that Jesus disobeyed the letter of the law concerning adultery.

John 8:3-6
The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?” They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him.

The Pharisees tested and demonstrated that Jesus did not follow the letter of the law.

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Well, it's also worth noting that the only body with the authority to pass a death sentence in Jewish law was the Sanhedrin. What Jesus came across, with the woman caught in adultery, was an unruly mob, not a lawful assembly. Jesus did not violate the command, since

1) Only the Sanhedrin had the authority in Jewish law to pass a death sentence.
2) That the sentence was death for adultery did not mean death was always meted out for adultery, the Sanhedrin had the authority to mete out death, if it could be demonstrated in court that adultery had transpired, but that doesn't mean it always happened. Jewish religion functioned with courts, with witnesses, and the maximum penalty was not always given, since circumstances were taken into account.

What Jesus does do here is demonstrate the unlawfulness of the mob in trying to mete out vigilante "justice", and Jesus demonstrates His kindness and compassion by showing mercy and dispelling the mob. The story therefore exists as a powerful intersection between the things of old and the new in Christ. And it wonderfully demonstrates the distinction between the right uses of Law and Gospel: The Law here, in fact, condemns the violent mob; and forgiveness and Gospel is given freely to the woman.

-CryptoLutheran

klutedavid said:

Do you believe the letter kills?

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If it is only observed outwardly.

Jesus said [in Matthew 23:23-28],

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."

and [in Matthew 5:20],

"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."