Could most modern translations be in error?

redleghunter · Sep 3, 2018

ClementofA said:
There's no "all things" in the Greek. It is just "all". They are to be "in Christ" which implies their salvation:

Yes there is:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/1-10.htm

ClementofA · Sep 3, 2018

redleghunter said:
Answered here:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ons-be-in-error.8078998/page-13#post-73136685

No, that didn't answer my questions. It also merely repeated the same erroneous comment & post that my questions were addressing, as follows:

redleghunter said:
The tent maker commentator needs some reading comprehension classes.

Those who were washed accepted as born again regenerated believers the Gospel of Christ. They have been washed in the blood of the New Covenant. Those who reject God’s covenant in the blood of His Son in Whom He is well pleased will be judged.

That quote wasn't from Tentmaker.

As for your comment, what is your point? How does it address this:

redleghunter said:
Compare now 1 Corinthians 6 since you quoted from 1 Corinthians 5:

1 Corinthians 6: NASB
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Der Alter said:
Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that
qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

ClementofA · Sep 3, 2018

redleghunter said:
Yes there is:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/1-10.htm

Click on the appropriate word and it takes you here:

https://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm

There's no "things" here:

https://studybible.info/ACVI/Ephesians
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/eph1.pdf

The "things" are in italics here, meaning it's not in the original Greek:

https://studybible.info/ABP_Strongs/Ephesians

ClementofA · Sep 3, 2018

redleghunter said:
Romans 5 does not support this. That is reading into the text ignoring the entire chapter and epistle for that matter.

Jigsaw eisegesis looks good on paper but does not stand the test:

Romans 1: NASB
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them up in the desires of their hearts to impurity for the dishonoring of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen.

26For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and hatred. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, and boastful. They invent new forms of evil; they disobey their parents. 31They are senseless, faithless, heartless, merciless.

32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things are worthy of death, they not only continue to do these things, but also approve of those who practice them.

It says they knew better but not only continue to do these things but approve of those who do.

You have a big issue with a God who metes out Righteous Justice allowing those who trample under foot the Son of God suffer for an eternity. Yet have no problem that at some point God gives sinners over to their own passions and unable to repent?

Unable to repent forever? Nowhere does Scripture say that.

Rom.1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Worthy of death, not endless tortures or endless annihilation.

Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom.11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath imprisoned them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

36 For out of him, and through him, and into him, is all: to whom be glory into the eons. Amen.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"Not that Paul’s argument there is difficult to follow. What preoccupies him is the agonizing mystery that the Messiah has come, yet so few of the house of Israel have accepted him, while so many Gentiles—outside the covenant—have. What then of God’s faithfulness to his promises? It is not an abstract question regarding who is “saved” and who “damned”: By the end of chapter 11, the former category proves to be vastly larger than that of the “elect,” or the “called,” while the latter category makes no appearance at all. It is a concrete question concerning Israel and the Church. And ultimately Paul arrives at an answer drawn, ingeniously, from the logic of election in Hebrew Scripture.

Before reaching that point, however, in a completely and explicitly conditional voice, he limns the problem in the starkest chiaroscuro. We know, he says, that divine election is God’s work alone, not earned but given; it is not by their merit that Gentile believers have been chosen. “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (9:13)—here quoting Malachi, for whomJacob is the type of Israel and Esau the type of Edom. For his own ends, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. He has mercy on whom he will, hardens whom he will (9:15–18). If you think this unjust, who are you, O man, to reproach God who made you? May not the potter cast his clay for purposes both high and low, as he chooses (9:19–21)? And, so, what if (ei de, quod si) God should show his power by preparing vessels of wrath, solely for destruction, to provide an instructive counterpoint to the riches of the glory he lavishes on vessels prepared for mercy, whom he has called from among the Jews and the Gentiles alike (9:22–24)? Perhaps that is simply how it is: The elect alone are to be saved, and the rest left reprobate, as a display of divine might; God’s faithfulness is his own affair.

Well, so far, so Augustinian. But so also, again, purely conditional: “What if . . . ?” Rather than offering a solution to the quandary that torments him, Paul is simply restating it in its bleakest possible form, at the very brink of despair. But then, instead of stopping here, he continues to question God’s justice after all, and spends the next two chapters unambiguously rejecting this provisional answer altogether, in order to reach a completely different—and far more glorious—conclusion.

Throughout the book of Genesis, the pattern of God’s election is persistently, even perversely antinomian: Ever and again the elder to whom the birthright properly belongs is supplanted by the younger, whom God has chosen in defiance of all natural “justice.” This is practically the running motif uniting the whole text, from Cain and Abel to Manasseh and Ephraim. But—this is crucial—it is a pattern not of exclusion and inclusion, but of a delay and divagation that immensely widens the scope of election, taking in the brother “justly” left out in such a way as to redound to the good of the brother “unjustly” pretermitted. This is clearest in the stories of Jacob and of Joseph, and it is why Esau and Jacob provide so apt a typology for Paul’s argument. For Esau is not finally rejected; the brothers are reconciled, to the increase of both precisely because of their temporary estrangement. And Jacob says to Esau (not the reverse), “Seeing your face is like seeing God’s.”

And so Paul proceeds. In the case of Israel and the Church, election has become even more literally “antinomian”: Christ is the end of the law so that all may attain righteousness, leaving no difference between Jew and Gentile; thus God blesses everyone (10:11–12). As for the believing “remnant” of Israel (11:5), they are elected not as the number of the “saved,” but as the earnest through which all of Israel will be saved (11:26), the part that makes the totality holy (11:16). And, again, the providential ellipticality of election’s course vastly widens its embrace: For now, part of Israel is hardened, but only until the “full entirety” (pleroma) of the Gentiles enter in; they have not been allowed to stumble only to fall, however, and if their failure now enriches the world, how much more so will their own “full entirety” (pleroma); temporarily rejected for “the world’s reconciliation,” they will undergo a restoration that will be a “resurrection from the dead” (11:11–12, 15).

This, then, is the radiant answer dispelling the shadows of Paul’s grim “what if,” the clarion negative: There is no final “illustrative” division between vessels of wrath and of mercy; God has bound everyone in disobedience so as to show mercy to everyone (11:32); all are vessels of wrath so that all may be made vessels of mercy.

Not that one can ever, apparently, be explicit enough. One classic Augustinian construal of Romans 11, particularly in the Reformed tradition, is to claim that Paul’s seemingly extravagant language—“all,” “full entirety,” “the world,” and so on—really still means just that all peoples are saved only in the “exemplary” or “representative” form of the elect. This is, of course, absurd. Paul is clear that it is those not called forth, those allowed to stumble, who will still never be allowed to fall. Such a reading would simply leave Paul in the darkness where he began, reduce his glorious discovery to a dreary tautology, convert his magnificent vision of the vast reach of divine love into a ludicrous cartoon of its squalid narrowness. Yet, on the whole, the Augustinian tradition on these texts has been so broad and mighty that it has, for millions of Christians, effectively evacuated Paul’s argument of all its real content. It ultimately made possible those spasms of theological and moral nihilism that prompted John Calvin to claim (in book 3 of The Institutes) that God predestined even the Fall, and (in his commentary on 1 John) that love belongs not to God’s essence, but only to how the elect experience him. Sic transit gloria Evangelii.

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/05/traditio-deformis

"I respectfully view your interpretation as the opposite of most careful Bible students, who recognize here and in its' OT context, God's ability to have mercy however he pleases is precisely that he can choose to have it toward those completely undeserving, such as those you see as "wicked God haters." Indeed, Paul's express point in speaking of those God hates and hardens and those He loves and chooses, Issac vs. Esau, is that Issac whom God loves is not the most wicked or deserving one, but a scoundrel chosen before he ever did anything. He further makes clear that those who experience such a puzzling 'hardening' are not those rejected by God, or consigned to 'hell,' but in chapter 11 that the point of all such binding people over to disobedience is that God will "have mercy upon everyone."

ClementofA · Sep 3, 2018

redleghunter said:
Romans 5: NASB
18Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The curse to all. The justification offered to all. However not all will be made righteous. But many.

There no mention of an "offer" of justification in v.18 there.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

----------------

18 So, then, just as by one transgression unto condemnation for all human beings, so also by one act of righteousness unto rectification of life for all human beings;
19 For, just as by the heedlessness of the one man many were rendered sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be rendered righteous.s

"s. The use of the definite article here and elsewhere must be scrupulously observed, in keeping with the traditional way of formulating the distinction between the
unique singular and the comprehensive plural in Greek (which a language without articles, like Latin, cannot reflect): not, that is, "one" (in the sense of "someone"),
but "the one" (in the sense of the unique and irreplaceable, an irreducible singular) and "the many" (in the sense of all and everyone, the indivisible totality of
all particulars). As in the prior verse, the proportion uniting both halves of the formulation is that of a particular and the universal, both in sin and in salvation."

(The New Testament: A Translation, David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.297-298)

redleghunter · Sep 3, 2018

ClementofA said:
There no mention of an "offer" of justification in v.18 there.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

----------------

18 So, then, just as by one transgression unto condemnation for all human beings, so also by one act of righteousness unto rectification of life for all human beings;
19 For, just as by the heedlessness of the one man many were rendered sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be rendered righteous.s

"s. The use of the definite article here and elsewhere must be scrupulously observed, in keeping with the traditional way of formulating the distinction between the
unique singular and the comprehensive plural in Greek (which a language without articles, like Latin, cannot reflect): not, that is, "one" (in the sense of "someone"),
but "the one" (in the sense of the unique and irreplaceable, an irreducible singular) and "the many" (in the sense of all and everyone, the indivisible totality of
all particulars). As in the prior verse, the proportion uniting both halves of the formulation is that of a particular and the universal, both in sin and in salvation."

(The New Testament: A Translation, David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.297-298)

The Justification is in the Righteous of Jesus Christ. Those condemned to the Lake of Fire have rejected Christ.

For your theology to work those in the Lake of Fire would need to rely on their suffering as cleansing them of unrighteousness when the only way is through Christ. That is what you and your references leave out each time.

Every one of those references omits the atonement. You have to prove there is another way for people who have rejected Christ and His righteousness to atone for their sins.

As it stands your assertion is a Big Love hand wave after some form of purgatory.

ClementofA · Sep 3, 2018

redleghunter said:
The Justification is in the Righteous of Jesus Christ. Those condemned to the Lake of Fire have rejected Christ.

Many still alive, whom God is willing to save, have rejected Christ. Can they not change their mind? Yes, they can. Likewise with those in the lake of fire. Being in the lake of fire won't change God's way of being willing to save Christ rejecters. Is His hand shortened that He is unable to save? Has His love expired like a carton of milk? Is the blood of Christ powerless for those for whom it was shed?

redleghunter said:
For your theology to work those in the Lake of Fire would need to rely on their suffering as cleansing them of unrighteousness when the only way is through Christ.

No, as i've told you already several times before, with repentance & faith they will be cleansed by the blood of Christ. Sufferings do not cleanse anyone of sins. And you've provided no logic that proves they couldn't be cleansed by Jesus' blood. Simply making a bald assertion as you do above is no more logical than the assertion that the tooth fairy is real.

redleghunter said:
That is what you and your references leave out each time.

Paul's gospel in 1 Cor.15:1-4 doesn't speak of the blood of Christ either. So what. The references i gave show universalism is true. Therefore it logically follows that since that requires cleansing by Christ's blood, all shall receive such a cleansing.

redleghunter said:
Every one of those references omits the atonement.

Irrelevant. And Romans 5:18-19 refers to salvation through Christ's "one just act" & "obedience":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Jn.1:2 says the atonement is for the whole world. Jn.1:29 says the Lamb will take away the sin of the world. Not let sin, death, evil & tortures endure endlessly.

redleghunter said:
You have to prove there is another way for people who have rejected Christ and His righteousness to atone for their sins.

See above.

redleghunter said:
As it stands your assertion is a Big Love hand wave after some form of purgatory.

See above. Several of my previous posts to you have already corrected you regarding that misrepresentation, which you continue to perpetuate.

redleghunter · Sep 3, 2018

ClementofA said:
Many still alive, whom God is willing to save, have rejected Christ. Can they not change their mind? Yes, they can.

Yes while still alive here on earth. You do acknowledge a Judgement Day?

That’s the point of Judgment Day. Those in Christ enter The Kingdom, those not in Christ are cut off.

Revelation 21: NASB

5And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” 6And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. 7The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

8But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

Revelation 22: NASB

14Blessed are those who wash their robes,a so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. 15But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Revelation 14: NASB

9And a third angel followed them, calling out in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand,10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

ClementofA said:
Likewise with those in the lake of fire.

Don’t think so see above.

ClementofA said:
Being in the lake of fire won't change God's way of being willing to save Christ rejecters. Is His hand shortened that He is unable to save? Has His love expired like a carton of milk? Is the blood of Christ powerless for those for whom it was shed?

You are speaking for God. There’s absolutely no Scriptural evidence those Judged and cut off from the Kingdom of God later repent and join the Kingdom.

Those who reject Christ are Judged.

Hebrews 9: NASB
27Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

Acts 17: NASB
30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

2 Thessalonians 1: NASB

5All this is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment. And so you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6After all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8in blazing fire.

He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might, 10on the day He comes to be glorified in His saints and regarded with wonder by all who have believed, including you who have believed our testimony.

ClementofA said:
No, as i've told you already several times before, with repentance & faith they will be cleansed by the blood of Christ. Sufferings do not cleanse anyone of sins. And you've provided no logic that proves they couldn't be cleansed by Jesus' blood.

The logic? What do you believe happens on Judgement Day. Does not Christ separate the sheep from goats? The sheep go on to eternal life and the goats go on to eternal punishment.

You believe God will undo His own Judgment? Verse, chapter and book which teaches this.

ClementofA said:
Paul's gospel in 1 Cor.15:1-4 doesn't speak of the blood of Christ either.

Sure it does. It says Christ was Crucified.

ClementofA said:
The references i gave show universalism is true.

No. The references you gave present a case for universalism based on (1) a Root Word Fallacy and (2) some slick eisegesis.

ClementofA said:
Irrelevant. And Romans 5:18-19 refers to salvation through Christ's "one just act" & "obedience":

And just what was that one act? Yes His crucifixion where He shed His precious royal holy blood. And Rose from the Dead. That is the one act.

ClementofA said:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Third time you leave out verse 20-21–

20The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

redleghunter · Sep 3, 2018

ClementofA said:
1 Jn.1:2 says the atonement is for the whole world. Jn.1:29 says the Lamb will take away the sin of the world. Not let sin, death, evil & tortures endure endlessly.

Did not see anything about the atonement in 1 John 1:2

1 John 1: NASB
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write these things so that oura joy may be complete.

John 1: NASB

29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!30This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’ 31I myself did not know Him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that He might be revealed to Israel.”

The same John the Baptist who said:

Matthew 3: NASB
7But when John saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his place of baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit worthy of repentance. 9And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11I baptize you withb water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

ClementofA · Sep 4, 2018

redleghunter said:
Did not see anything about the atonement in 1 John 1:2

New International Version
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

No mention of any expiry date there, when the blood of Jesus no longer avails, or is powerless to save. Nowhere does Scripture say His blood ever becomes unable to cleanse the sins of those for whom Christ shed His blood.

redleghunter said:
John 1: NASB

29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Jn.1:29 says the Lamb will take away the sin of the world. Not let sin, death, evil & tortures endure endlessly.

redleghunter said:
The same John the Baptist who said:

Matthew 3: NASB
7But when John saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his place of baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit worthy of repentance. 9And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11I baptize you withb water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Chaff is neither annihilated forever or eternally tortured. When burned it is transformed into something else & ascends upwards towards heaven. Wheat is quite useful for food...tares are quite useless for food, but are useful for fuel, but only if burned as they are in Mt. 3:12.

Wheat is useful to the farmer for food. Chaff is useless, unless it is used for fuel. That occurs by burning it, as in Mt.3:12. Of course burned chaff is not annihilated but changed into something else. This verse does not address the final destiny of people's souls. It doesn't even mention the word "soul", let alone any soul is ever annihilated & God Himself is powerless to resurrect that soul. Neither does it state the wheat & chaff represent different people rather than 2 parts of one person. In fact the previous verse said they would be baptized in the "Holy Spirit and fire" (v.11). Not one or the other. That is salvation. And it was spoken to the Pharisees & Sadduccees whom John called a "generation of vipers" (v.7).

Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

ClementofA · Sep 4, 2018

redleghunter said:
Yes while still alive here on earth. You do acknowledge a Judgement Day?

Here are a few of the many judgement days in the Scriptures:

[1.] God's anger being corrective: "Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me."

[2.] To apostates being corrected (1 Tim.1:19-20)

[3.] To the sexually immoral "brother" for his salvation (1 Cor.5:4-5)

[4.] To those of the church in Corinth who were suffering weakness, sickness or death as judgments (1 Cor. 11:29-31)

[5.] This judgement sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

"Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double" (Rev.18:6)

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

[6.] The judgement of God's wrath corrects a sinner for his own good: "Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness." (Micah 7:9)

[7.]Even those whom He punished & they have refused to repent God promises to eventually heal & restore: Isa.57:16 For I will not accuse you forever, nor will I always be angry; for then the spirit of man would grow weak before Me, with the breath of those I have made. Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him; I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart. 18 I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners

[8.] Hab.1:12b O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

[9.] Isaiah 12:1 Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

[10.] Hosea 6:1 "Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

[11.] When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)

[12.] because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (Js. 2:13)

[13.] Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

[14] Judgment immediately at death (Lk.16:19-31)

[15] Judgment day at Christ's return re those alive on earth (Mt.25:31-46)

[16] Judgment day about 1000 years after Christ's return regarding the dead (Rev.20:11-15).

[17] Heb.10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

[18] Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

[19] Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

[20] Mal.3:2 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He will be like a refiner’s fire, like a launderer's soap.
3 And He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver. Then they will present offerings to the LORD in righteousness

ClementofA · Sep 4, 2018

redleghunter said:
Yes while still alive here on earth. You do acknowledge a Judgement Day?

That’s the point of Judgment Day. Those in Christ enter The Kingdom, those not in Christ are cut off.

Revelation 21: NASB

5And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” 6And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. 7The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

8But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

redleghunter said:
Revelation 14: NASB

9And a third angel followed them, calling out in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand,10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Same issue as the OP of this thread. NASB has changed the words of scripture into man's theological opinion. More honest accurate and literal translations are like this:

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...hilationsim-vs-eternal-torment.8019864/page-7

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

redleghunter said:
2 Thessalonians 1: NASB

9They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might, 10on the day He comes to be glorified in His saints and regarded with wonder by all who have believed, including you who have believed our testimony.

Once again, it's same issue (& the same Greek word/s; aion/ion) as the OP of this thread & Rev.14 above. NASB has changed the words of scripture into man's theological opinion. More honest accurate and literal translations are like this:

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

https://translate.academic.ru/ὄλεθρος/el/xx/

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

Compare that above statement to:

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

Here we see "destruction" is for the good of the person:

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)
He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

Here we see destruction was temporary:

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)

"Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2015/02/22/book-review-the-inescapable-love-of-god-part-5/

http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=213

Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:

"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.

"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).

"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.

"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.

"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."

http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4087

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

redleghunter said:
20The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Once again, for the third time in your post, it's same issue (& the same Greek word/s; aion/ion) as the OP of this thread & Rev.14 above. Your version has changed the words of scripture into man's theological opinion. More honest accurate and literal translations are like this:

20 Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds, 21 that, even as Sin reigns in death, thus Grace also should be reigning through righteousness, for life eonian, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Tom Talbott said:

"I have addressed this question so many times over recent decades that you will forgive me, I hope, if I try to save time by copying a previously composed response. Here is what I wrote in the second edition of The Inescapable Love of God, page 194:"

" “But if our salvation is guaranteed from the beginning and guaranteed no matter what choices we make in the present, then where is the incentive, many would ask, to repent and to enter into communion with God? Why not just keep on sinning if we are going to be saved anyway? That very question, however, betrays a terrible confusion, and Paul himself, I might add, exposed a similar confusion when his interlocutor had asked: ‘Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound?’ (Rom 6:1). Nor did Paul ever reject the assumption behind the question: namely, that the more we sin, the more grace will indeed abound. To the contrary, he endorsed this very assumption when he wrote [two verses earlier]: ‘where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’ (Rom 5:20). Not in a million, or a billion, or even a trillion years could our sins ever out-duel the grace of God." "

" “So why, then, did Paul answer his own question, correctly, with his characteristic ‘By no means’? He did so because of his firm conviction that sin is utterly irrational and utterly contrary to our own best interest. For how, he in effect asked, could those who have ‘died to sin’ and therefore understand its true nature continue to sin (6:2)? Is not sin (or anything that separates us from God) precisely the problem, the very thing making our lives miserable? That the pain I experience when I thrust my hand into a flame may serve a beneficial purpose—because it enables me to avoid an even greater injury in the future—hardly entails that I have a good reason to thrust my hand into the flame again and again. And similarly, that the misery and discontent that sin brings into a life can serve a redemptive purpose—because it can provide in the end a compelling motive to repent—hardly implies that one has a good reason to keep on sinning and to continue making oneself more and more miserable in the process.” "

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2018/05/29/how-to-read-the-bible-from-a-universalist-perspective/

redleghunter · Sep 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
New International Version
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

No mention of any expiry date there, when the blood of Jesus no longer avails, or is powerless to save. Nowhere does Scripture say His blood ever becomes unable to cleanse the sins of those for whom Christ shed His blood.

You quoted 1 John 1:2 originally.

If we take what you are implying 1 John 2:2 is saying, then no one will be judged or suffer loss. Meaning there is no need for the lake of fire. In effect you are saying Jesus died and rose for everyone, therefore by His work, and no change or response from us all are saved. I'm sorry but the full revelation of Holy Scriptures does not support this.

Romans 8: NASB
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

ClementofA said:
Chaff is neither annihilated forever or eternally tortured.

Chaff is worthless.

ClementofA said:
When burned it is transformed into something else & ascends upwards towards heaven.

It is burned up because it is worthless.

ClementofA said:
Wheat is quite useful for food...tares are quite useless for food, but are useful for fuel, but only if burned as they are in Mt. 3:12.

Yes tares are useful for fuel and used to produce fire. Burned up, never becomes wheat and associated with the enemy Satan.

Matthew 13: NASB
24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25“But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26“But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27“The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28“And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29“But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

The tares are associated with the enemy aka Satan.

redleghunter · Sep 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
[1.] God's anger being corrective: "Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me."

From Isaiah 12. A continuation of Isaiah 11 which is the restoration of the remnant of Israel.

ClementofA said:
[2.] To apostates being corrected (1 Tim.1:19-20)

[3.] To the sexually immoral "brother" for his salvation (1 Cor.5:4-5)

[4.] To those of the church in Corinth who were suffering weakness, sickness or death as judgments (1 Cor. 11:29-31)

Not final judgement or associated with the GWT on Judgement Day. The 1 Timothy 1:19-20 quote as dealing with apostates is debatable. But that is another discussion.

ClementofA said:
[5.] This judgement sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

"Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double" (Rev.18:6)

Revelation 18: NASB
1After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. 2And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. 3“For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”

4I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; 5for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6“Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. 7“To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.’ 8“For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

You leave out quite a lot. Also considering this is a judgement for either one city or the entire world system in end times. Not individual people. But what is quoted above is not all about Babylon the great.

18and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’ 19“And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’ 20“Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.”

Unless your argument is annihilationism there is no comfort for universalism. Babylon is destroyed, laid waste. Or perhaps you are advocating Babylon and its system of worldly sinful government will be restored sometime after the GWT Judgement?

ClementofA said:
Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

You left out some critical information:

Hebrews 2: NASB
1For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, 3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

So we need to ask the question....What is the sentence for neglecting so great a salvation in the blood of Christ the Son of God which was attested by signs, wonders, miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Jesus answers:

Matthew 25: NASB
41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

redleghunter · Sep 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
[6.] The judgement of God's wrath corrects a sinner for his own good: "Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness." (Micah 7:9)

This is not final judgement.

Micah 7: NASB
7But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the LORD;
I will wait for the God of my salvation.
My God will hear me.

8Do not rejoice over me, O my enemy.
Though I fall I will rise;
Though I dwell in darkness, the LORD is a light for me.

9I will bear the indignation of the LORD
Because I have sinned against Him,
Until He pleads my case and executes justice for me.
He will bring me out to the light,
And I will see His righteousness.

10Then my enemy will see,
And shame will cover her who said to me,
“Where is the LORD your God?”
My eyes will look on her;
At that time she will be trampled down
Like mire of the streets.

As you can see the lead in verses has a repentant heart wanting to be restored and calling upon or waiting for God's salvation. This is the heart of the New Covenant where God takes our heart of stone and gives us hearts of flesh. He will put His Spirit in us and we will walk in His statutes (Ezekiel 36:25-27)

ClementofA said:
[7.]Even those whom He punished & they have refused to repent God promises to eventually heal & restore: Isa.57:16 For I will not accuse you forever, nor will I always be angry; for then the spirit of man would grow weak before Me, with the breath of those I have made. Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him; I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart. 18 I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners

Another instance of not providing the context:

Isaiah 57: NASB
1The righteous man perishes, and no man takes it to heart;
And devout men are taken away, while no one understands.
For the righteous man is taken away from evil,

2He enters into peace;
They rest in their beds,
Each one who walked in his upright way.

3“But come here, you sons of a sorceress,
Offspring of an adulterer and a prostitute.

4“Against whom do you jest?
Against whom do you open wide your mouth
And stick out your tongue?
Are you not children of rebellion,
Offspring of deceit,

5Who inflame yourselves among the oaks,
Under every luxuriant tree,
Who slaughter the children in the ravines,
Under the clefts of the crags?

6“Among the smooth stones of the ravine
Is your portion, they are your lot;
Even to them you have poured out a drink offering,
You have made a grain offering.
Shall I relent concerning these things?

7“Upon a high and lofty mountain
You have made your bed.
You also went up there to offer sacrifice.

8“Behind the door and the doorpost
You have set up your sign;
Indeed, far removed from Me, you have uncovered yourself,
And have gone up and made your bed wide.
And you have made an agreement for yourself with them,
You have loved their bed,
You have looked on their manhood.

9“You have journeyed to the king with oil
And increased your perfumes;
You have sent your envoys a great distance
And made them go down to Sheol.

10“You were tired out by the length of your road,
Yet you did not say, ‘It is hopeless.’
You found renewed strength,
Therefore you did not faint.

11“Of whom were you worried and fearful
When you lied, and did not remember Me
Nor give Me a thought?
Was I not silent even for a long time
So you do not fear Me?

12“I will declare your righteousness and your deeds,
But they will not profit you.

13“When you cry out, let your collection of idols deliver you.
But the wind will carry all of them up,
And a breath will take them away.
But he who takes refuge in Me will inherit the land
And will possess My holy mountain.”

14And it will be said,
“Build up, build up, prepare the way,
Remove every obstacle out of the way of My people.”

15For thus says the high and exalted One
Who lives forever, whose name is Holy,
“I dwell on a high and holy place,
And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit
In order to revive the spirit of the lowly
And to revive the heart of the contrite.

16“For I will not contend forever,
Nor will I always be angry;
For the spirit would grow faint before Me,
And the breath of those whom I have made.

17“Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry,
And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

19Creating the praise of the lips.
Peace, peace to him who is far and to him who is near,”
Says the LORD, “and I will heal him.”

20But the wicked are like the tossing sea,
For it cannot be quiet,
And its waters toss up refuse and mud.

21“There is no peace,” says my God, “for the wicked.”

See bolded. Throughout the chapter Isaiah is switching from the wicked and their ways to those who are contrite. In verse 13 it says "But he who takes refuge in Me will inherit the land And will possess My holy mountain.” Then after discussing the restoration of Israel under God's Grace, the dialogue ends with "There is no peace, says my God, for the wicked."

By God not being angry forever means His wrath would be satisfied. That satisfaction came in the pure Lamb of God Jesus Christ giving up His own very life shedding His sinless blood of the New Covenant. For those in Christ there is now no condemnation (Romans 8:1). But as the prophet said:
20But the wicked are like the tossing sea,
For it cannot be quiet,
And its waters toss up refuse and mud.

21“There is no peace,” says my God, “for the wicked.”

I think that is enough to show how the verses you posted were taken out of context or incomplete in presentation.

redleghunter · Sep 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

How long is an age? Ages of ages? Ages of ages sounds like eternal or everlasting to me. And it should because if we want to take your root word fallacy to the extreme, olam concretely means "beyond the horizon." Meaning beyond what we can see. And as we walk on a spheroid, we will continue to observe beyond what we can see. Which is eternal...beyond what mankind can fathom or 'see' or comprehend. AKA beyond space and time which was a creation and which the Creator is not bound.

Therefore, ages of ages, or age enduring or age during mean beyond the fathomable for man and as such belongs to the Eternal God. Thus, eternal and everlasting.

That is the pure result of your root word fallacy. It takes us back to the meaning of eternal and everlasting and forever as 99% of all English translations done by committee show us.

redleghunter · Sep 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
Once again, for the third time in your post, it's same issue (& the same Greek word/s; aion/ion) as the OP of this thread & Rev.14 above. Your version has changed the words of scripture into man's theological opinion. More honest accurate and literal translations are like this:

20 Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds, 21 that, even as Sin reigns in death, thus Grace also should be reigning through righteousness, for life eonian, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

I don't accept the CLV as a credible English language translation. It is colored with theological bias of Universalism and soul sleep. It is also suspect on passages regarding the Deity of Jesus Christ in John 1:1-2 and Colossians 2:9.

https://studybible.info/CLV/Colossians 2
Communicates Modalism

https://studybible.info/CLV/John
Calls into question the Divine Logos as one with God.

Edit add:
https://studybible.info/CLV/Revelation 21
CLT has Jesus 'becoming' the Alpha and Omega. Denying the Eternal nature of the Divine Logos. Plus 'becoming' is not in any Greek manuscripts.

Der Alte · Sep 4, 2018

Oldmantook said:
begin

<omt>You have argued with those who believe in the doctrine of apokatastasis for quite some time now and yet you still have to ask the question "what do the unrepentant have to do and when do they have to do it?" I find that quite remarkable as it seems you haven't studied apokatastasis and what those who believe in it adhere to, or at the very least have not even understood the arguments you were replying to. Nonetheless to answer your question, the simple answer is the unrepentant who end up in the lake of fire spend an age of time there, are punished/chastised for their sin, until such time that they repent so that "so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:10-11); thus fulfilling God's stated purpose in Col 1:20: "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
The context makes perfect sense as the scriptures do not conflict with each other as scripture informs scripture.<end>

end

You wrongly assume that I have never read this passage. I have read the scripture and addressed the argument many times. The unrepentant will indeed bow theirs knees and proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord as David prophesied.
Psalms 110:1

(1) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luke 20:42-43
(42) And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(43) Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.[Acts of the apostles 2:35, Hebrews 10:13]

ClementofA · Sep 4, 2018

redleghunter said:
If we take what you are implying 1 John 2:2 is saying, then no one will be judged or suffer loss. Meaning there is no need for the lake of fire. In effect you are saying Jesus died and rose for everyone, therefore by His work, and no change or response from us all are saved. I'm sorry but the full revelation of Holy Scriptures does not support this.

That's a strawman. You are imagining what i think, but did not say. And your vain imaginations are wrong, false, a delusion. Sadly, that also sums up how you deal with the Scriptures. You've been doing similar things (misrepresentations, etc) repeatedly in this thread, both as regards the Scriptures & other subjects.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

ClementofA · Sep 4, 2018

redleghunter said:
Yes tares are useful for fuel and used to produce fire.

Therefore, like the wheat, it is useful.

redleghunter said:
Did not see anything about the atonement in 1 John 1:2

New International Version
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

No mention of any expiry date there, when the blood of Jesus no longer avails, or is powerless to save. Nowhere does Scripture say His blood ever becomes unable to cleanse the sins of those for whom Christ shed His blood.

redleghunter said:
John 1: NASB

29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Jn.1:29 says the Lamb will take away the sin of the world. Not let sin, death, evil & tortures endure endlessly.

redleghunter said:
The same John the Baptist who said:

Matthew 3: NASB
7But when John saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his place of baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit worthy of repentance. 9And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11I baptize you withb water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Chaff is neither annihilated forever or eternally tortured. When burned it is transformed into something else & ascends upwards towards heaven. Wheat is quite useful for food...tares are quite useless for food, but are useful for fuel, but only if burned as they are in Mt. 3:12.

Wheat is useful to the farmer for food. Chaff is useless, unless it is used for fuel. That occurs by burning it, as in Mt.3:12. Of course burned chaff is not annihilated but changed into something else. This verse does not address the final destiny of people's souls. It doesn't even mention the word "soul", let alone any soul is ever annihilated & God Himself is powerless to resurrect that soul. Neither does it state the wheat & chaff represent different people rather than 2 parts of one person. In fact the previous verse said they would be baptized in the "Holy Spirit and fire" (v.11). Not one or the other. That is salvation. And it was spoken to the Pharisees & Sadduccees whom John called a "generation of vipers" (v.7).

Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Could most modern translations be in error?

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