IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

LoveGodsWord · Sep 4, 2018

Dave L said:
The unregenerate know first hand how sinful they are by the golden rule written in their heart. They all know how they want to be treated, but none treat others this way. The Ten Commandments might tie them up and keep them from Christ, thinking they are good for not doing what they forbade. But it's the inner law of the heart that drives the point home.

Paul disagrees with you..

ROMANS 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.

Saint Steven · Sep 4, 2018

Jason0047 said:
When Jesus died, the Sabbath laws were nailed to the cross.

Before the cross: I do not believe there was a problem with the Sabbath Law itself. Jesus is merely pointing out that there are certain things that a believer in the OT can do and not do according to the Sabbath. Healing on the Sabbath or doing good on the Sabbath was not forbidden. What was forbidden on the Sabbath was doing general monotonous labor for one's one self interests.

Granted, the Sabbath does not apply under the NT anymore, though.
I do not believe Jesus changed the Sabbath prior to the cross, and I do not believe Jesus violated the Sabbath in any way. I believe that when Jesus said He was Lord over the Sabbath, Jesus was indicating that He was God and that He had the authority to say what was acceptable on the Sabbath and what was not acceptable on the Sabbath.

Even before the cross we see some interesting things. Jesus was not trying to show support for Sabbath law by upholding it to the degree that was expected in that society. In fact, he was known as a Sabbath-breaker, not a Sabbath-keeper. Very controversial and provoking behavior on his part. I think he was setting the law aside.

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 9:16
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

Neogaia777 · Sep 4, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Absolutely that is the purpose of God's LAW to show us our need of Christ and lead us to the cross that we might be justified [FORGIVEN] by faith.

Then what...?

God Bless!

Dave L · Sep 4, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Paul disagrees with you..

ROMANS 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.

You also know this by the inner law written on the heart. This is why the heathen who never heard the law stand condemned.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 4, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Even before the cross we see some interesting things. Jesus was not trying to show support for Sabbath law by upholding it to the degree that was expected in that society. In fact, he was known as a Sabbath-breaker, not a Sabbath-keeper. Very controversial and provoking behavior on his part. I think he was setting the law aside.

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 9:16
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

If Jesus broke the law how could he be our perfect sacrifice for sin? In your view mankind is lost.

discipler7 · Sep 4, 2018

Jason0047 said:
For even if you believed God paid the price for all sins at the cross, it still does not erase the moral issue. That would be like dying for the devil so he can continue to do evil and horrible things upon other people.

No, wrt salvation in the afterlife, God only paid the price for Adam's Original Sin at the Cross, which Sin that all fallen Man have inherited during birth, ie Jesus Christ was sacrificed as the Lamb of God on the Cross mainly to save fallen Mankind from hell when they die, and minorly to forgive their sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking to give them healing and deliverances from the curses of their sins/evil-deeds. ...

ROMANS.5: = Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— ... For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

Didn't I say at 1CORINTHIANS.5:5 that God would permit Satan to destroy the flesh (= dies young) of the unrepentant Gentile Christian incest-sinner or other sexually-immoral sinners.? Here you go falsely accusing me of encouraging Gentile Christians who have been saved by faith in the Cross of Jesus Christ to continue to do evil and horrible things upon other people. Did I say that George Sodini was 100% saved.? Didn't Paul send many Jewish Christians to their death before he was converted by Jesus.?
....... Whatever it is, no one can negate the promise/word of God to save from hell those who place their faith in Jesus Christ.

Why did God grant the Gentile Christians exemptions from His laws that are a burden(ACTS.15:24-29 & 21:25).? = because for the weaker Gentile Christians(compared to Jewish Christians), everlasting life in the kingdom of heaven through faith in Jesus Christ trumps a better and longer life on earth through the works of keeping the Law or Moses Law.
.......Requiring Gentile Christians to keep all or most of Moses Law, eg circumcision and kosher food, may cause some of them to abandon or lose their newfound faith in Christ due to the heavy burdens of the Law. For Jewish Christians, Moses Law is not a burden because they have kept it since childhood as former Jews.

Hence, in USA and the West, legalistic religions like Judaism and Islam do not hold much attraction for the people. Seems, you are trying to turn Christianity into another legalistic religion, eg "Not loving your neighbor is a salvation issue", "Christians must feed the hungry, clothe the naked, take in strangers and visit sick prisoners, in order to remain saved", etc.

MATTHEW.9: = 12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Dave L · Sep 4, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
If Jesus broke the law how could he be our perfect sacrifice for sin? In your view mankind is lost.

No, Jesus fulfilled the righteousness of the Two Great Commandments on the cross, and the Ten as a spill over effect from fulfilling the Two.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 4, 2018

Dave L said:
No, Jesus fulfilled the righteousness of the Two Great Commandments on the cross, and the Ten as a spill over effect from fulfilling the Two.

No one fulfills God's LAW by breaking it.. That is why Jesus says on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets * MATTHEW 22:36-40 and why Paul says LOVE is the FULFILLING [doing or establishing] of the law.

ROMANS 13:8-10
[8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.
[9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

How are you fulfilling God's LAW by breaking it?

Neogaia777 · Sep 4, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Even before the cross we see some interesting things. Jesus was not trying to show support for Sabbath law by upholding it to the degree (or way, cause he actually did keep it) that was expected in that society (society was wrong about it and still is). In fact, he was known as a Sabbath-breaker, not a Sabbath-keeper. (By most the affluent and influential, yes) (he was crucified as a lawless one (in our place), but he was not, and I think all of most of us know that) Very controversial and provoking behavior on his part. (Surely) I think he was setting the law aside. (No, he was not, we were not getting the law, not the Spirit that it was of, he was and did...)

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 9:16
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

I put some things in parenthesis...

Even before the cross we see some interesting things. Jesus was not trying to show support for Sabbath law by upholding it to the degree (or way, cause he actually did keep it) that was expected in that society (society was wrong about it and still is). In fact, he was known as a Sabbath-breaker, not a Sabbath-keeper. (By most the affluent and influential, yes) (he was crucified as a lawless one (in our place), but he was not, and I think all of most of us know that) Very controversial and provoking behavior on his part. (Surely) I think he was setting the law aside. (No, he was not, we were not getting the law, not the Spirit that it was of, he was and did...)

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Sep 4, 2018

Dave L said:
No, Jesus fulfilled the righteousness of the Two Great Commandments on the cross, and the Ten as a spill over effect from fulfilling the Two.

As long as you remember that Jesus never had to fulfill, as in "obey" or "come to obey" them, or understand, or anything... Jesus "was them", the Ten, the Two, Commandments, "whatever"... He is what the commandments are supposed to be, or should be, in a body, from birth... that's how he fulfilled them... Lived from birth and died, having never sinned...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Sep 4, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
As long as you remember that Jesus never had to fulfill, as in "obey" or "come to obey" them, or understand, or anything... Jesus "was them", the Ten, the Two, Commandments, "whatever"... He is what the commandments are supposed to be, or should be, in a body, from birth... that's how he fulfilled them... Lived from birth and died, having never sinned...

God Bless!

But took upon himself the weight, cost, blame, shame, "whatever", and pressures of our sins he experienced for us, with us, but never sinned...

LoveGodsWord · Sep 4, 2018

@ Everyone nice talking to you all again. Late my time so have to catch up tommorrow.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word. :wave:

LoveGodsWord · Sep 4, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Then what...?
God Bless!

Sorry Neo, missed this (last one)

We are Born again to LOVE and walk in his Spirit. If we walk in his Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:4). If we are now free to LOVE then LOVE fulfills God's LAW in those who BELIEVE or as Paul says establishes the law by faith (Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31). This is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil (1 John 3:3-9).

99 all :wave:

JLB777 · Sep 4, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
If Jesus broke the law how could he be our perfect sacrifice for sin?

Jesus never sinned, nor was He subject to the law of Moses.

Jesus was born under the law, but was a High Priest Himself according to Melchizedek, who is a Higher priest than Levi and not subject to the Leviticus Priesthood.

So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”
As He also says in another place:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;
Hebrews 5:5-6

again

For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him. Hebrews 7:1-9

Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better.

Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

Remember that the law was until John.

“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16

Also remember the law was added until Christ, the Seed.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

The law of Moses was always temporary, intended to be in effect until the Seed should come.

Jesus was not subject to the obsolete law of Moses or the ordinances of the Sabbath.

Which is why He made this statement to the Pharisee's -

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:16-18

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath,
[according to the law of Moses].

Before the law of Moses there was only the simple day of rest for man, with no ordinances.

I have asked you many times, to share with us the scriptures whereby Jesus instructed the Church to keep the Sabbath.

You have never answered but only gave some long cut and paste answer with zero scriptures where Jesus instructed the Church as to how to observe the Sabbath apart from the law, under the New Covenant, where He Himself is the High Priest.

JLB

BNR32FAN · Sep 4, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi All,

Just hoping to hear your thoughts on if you believe it is still sin to break God's 10 Commandments?

Let's make it clear from the beginning however, NONE are saved by the works of the law (keeping God's 10 Commandments). We are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8).

The purpose of God's LAW is to only give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Psalms 119:172) to lead us to the foot of the cross so we can see ourselves as sinners in need of a Saviour (Galatians 3:22-25). Our righteousness is be faith in God's WORD not in anything that we can do (Romans 3:25; Philippians 3:9). We need to be Born again to LOVE and LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW in that heart of those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW the WORDS of GOD (1 John 3:3-9; Romans 13:8-10; Hebrews 8:10-12)

................

Here is my thoughts. I believe if we disregard any of God's WORD then it is SIN to us because it is written, to him who knows to do good and does not do it to him it is sin (James 4:17). So, if the 10 Commandments are God's WORD. Then I believe it is sin to break them.

Here are some scriptures I have found in the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT saying that breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments is SIN.

................

SIN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT BREAKING THE 10 COMMANDMENTS (Summarized)

God said in Genesis 4:7 to Cain when he was angry because he did not worship God in his appointed way that by doing this it was sin. Jesus say the same in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we follow and teachings of men that break the commandments of God we are not following God. Mankind was destroyed by a flood because of sin (Genesis 6:5-7).

Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of sin (Genesis 18:20). Jacob knew about sin when he complained to Laben when he left with his daughters (Genesis 31:36).

When Potiphar’s wife came to Joseph with the aim of committing adultery, Joseph knew it was sin and protested saying how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? (Genesis 39:9).

God said that if Israel was not to make a covenant with the other nations and serve their god's it would be sin (Exodus 23:33). When Moses was delayed on the Mount with God the children of ISRAEL made an Idol and worshipped it breaking God's 1st and 2nd commandment (Exodus 20:3-5). Moses said to them after he returned, you have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin (Exodus 32:30; Deuteronomy 9:16-18). Moses said to Aaron that by making an idol for the people to worship that it was a great sin (Exodus 32:21; 30). God would punish the children of Israel for their sin of Idol worship (Exodus 32:34).

God said to Moses in reference to breaking the 10 Commandments; Whosoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book (Exodus 32:33).

God said that if Israel was not to make a covenant with the other nations and serve their god's it would be sin (Exodus 23:33). Joshua says stealing is sin (Joshua 7:11). Achan knew when he was caught stealing that he sinned (Joshua 7:20).

When God's people forsake God to worship other God's, they also confess that they had sinned in breaking God's commandments (Judges 10:10;15). Samuel made atonement for God's people when they wanted to return to God confessing that they had sinned after they worshipped other Gods breaking God's 1st and 2nd commandments (1 Samuel 7:5; 12:10; Exodus 20:2-5).

King Saul wanted to kill David, but Jonathon spoke good of David saying to him no to sin against David by killing him (1 Samuel 19:4). David cut the skirt of King Saul in the cave and said to him that he could have killed him if he wanted to but did not sin against him by sparing his life (1 Samuel 24:11). King Saul replied that in wanting to kill David he had sinned (1 Samuel 26:21).

When David became king he desired Bathsheba who was another man’s wife and organized for her husband Uriah the Hitite to be sent to the front line of battle to be killed. God sent Nathan to David and David confessed in doing this that he had sinned in breaking God's 6th and 7th Commandment (Exodus 20:13:14). David confessed that he had sinned to breaking God's LAW (1 Samuel 12:13).

Now we can also go through all the evil Kings of Israel that sinned against God by following and worshipping other Gods which is also defined as sin in God's WORD but there would be too many scriptures (2 Kings 17:7). God testified that they served other Gods and idols sending them prophets to warn them of their sins (2 Kings 17:12-13; 16-17). We are also told that King Manasseh also broke God's 6th commandment and killed more innocent people then most others testifying that by doing this he had sinned (2 Kings 16:17). God continued to send prophets to warn his people of the consequences of sin (Nehemiah 9:30). God's people continued in their sins forsaking God's LAW (10 commandments) and in doing so God left them and Israel were overthrown and led into captivity to the other nations because they departed from God serving other God's and idols. Nehemiah knew this and prayed to God confessing their sins (Nehemiah 1:6-9). God's people continued to sin against God by worshipping other Gods despite the warning of Jeremiah (Jeremiah 44:18-23). In despite of God's Word teaching that God's people had forsaken the 10 commandments and sinned against God, going into captivity, God promised he would bring them back when they returned to him and heal them from their sins of breaking his commandments (Ezekiel 37:22-23).

Hosea testified by the Word of the Lord that God's people by making idols and worshipping other god's, lying, stealing, killing, committing adultery would receive the judgments of God because they had sinned by departing from the 10 Commandments (Hosea 4:1-19).

The word of the Lord came to Zephaniah saying that all those who continue in sin by worshipping other God's and breaking his commandments will be destroyed off the land because they have sinned against God (Zephaniah 1:2-17).

................

Yep pretty clear that in the OLD TESTAMENT if God's people broke any of the 10 Commandments it was SIN.

................

Now it is interesting all the 10 Commandments are repeated in the NEW TESTAMENT. Is it still sin in the NEW TESTAMENT to break and of God's 10 Commandments?

NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES

JAMES 2:8-12
[8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: [9], But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

Yep, James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW and commit SIN. James quotes two of the 10 Commandments saying that if we break them we commit sin v9 that are summed up in the 2nd great commandments of LOVE to God and LOVE to our neighbour in v11. Maybe you missed that one?

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

Well here we have Paul in agreement with James and John also telling us that he did not know what sin was without God's 10 Commandments. SIN is breaking God's commandments and Paul uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN (Exodus 20:17)

links to...

1 JOHN 3:4 [4] Whosoever commits SIN transgresses also the law: for SIN is the transgression of the law.

John is saying the same thing as James and Paul and states that if we TRANSGRESS God's LAW then we commit SIN because SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW. So it is very clear that SIN is breaking ANY of God's LAW (10 commandments). We will look at the chapter context John uses v15 of MURDER as an example of sin which is God's 6th Command of the 10.

God's WORD in both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT says very clearly that if we break ANY of the 10 Commandments it is indeed SIN and we become guilty before God if we are CONTINUING in KNOWN UNREPETANT SIN.

................

Ok my friends. What are your thoughts?

Is it SIN to break any of the 10 COMMANDMENTS that were written and spoken by GOD?

May God bless you all as you seek him through his WORD

I think it’s important to understand is the purpose of the law because sometimes certain situations can arise that cause conflict within the 10 commandments. One perfect example is Rahab. She was counted as being righteous because she lied to the king’s men and protected the Israelite spies. She had broken the 9th commandment but honored the 10th commandment. It was out of her compassion for these men that she lied so that they would be spared from death. Another example would be that we are commanded to honor our mother & father, but what if they told us to do something that is against God’s commandments? If for example they told you to kill someone who had raped your sister. We would have to break the 5th commandment in order to keep the 6th and 10th commandment. So by this we can see that understanding the purpose of the commandments is important. Jesus gave us two great examples explaining the purpose of all the commandments. Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love each other as Jesus has loved us. He told us that not only the 10 commandments but all of the commandments of all the prophets are based on these two commandments. This concept becomes interesting concerning the Saturday Sabbath. Some people choose to honor God on Sunday instead of Saturday. They are still observing the purpose of the 1st & 4th commandment which are both to love & honor God. The Jews however have taken God’s commandments to the extreme. For example the Jesus and His apostles were rebuked by the Pharisees for picking grain on the Sabbath because they were hungry. Yet Jesus has pardoned the apostles because they were not tending fields on the Sabbath in disobedience to God. They were merely hungry and picking enough food for them to eat. Their purpose was not to dishonor God but simply to get something to eat. The idea here is that the purpose of the commandments supersedes the letter of the commandments. So no matter what day we choose to honor God if we do set aside a day of worship we are still observing the purpose of the law. This is what Paul was referring to in Romans 14. Paul often disregarded the dietary laws while he was with the Gentiles. He even rebuked Peter for refraining from eating with the Gentiles while Jews were present. The laws were put in place to become a stumbling block for the Jews to teach them that righteousness cannot come from obedience to the law. Righteousness only comes from from faith. Abraham and Noah are two great example of this because they were declared righteous by their faith before the law was written. They were declared righteous by trusting in God not by their obedience. Noah was declared righteous before he built the ark. Abraham was declared righteous before he took his family into the wilderness by God’s command. These are examples that we are not made righteous by works or obedience to the law. We are made righteous by having faith in God, by His grace (a free and unmerited favor of God) thru Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross where He shed His blood and took our sins paying the price in our place so that we might be saved. PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!

JLB777 · Sep 4, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
We are Born again to LOVE and walk in his Spirit.

Those who walk in the Spirit and led by the Spirit are not under the law.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

The Holy Spirit does not lead people to keep the law of Moses.

JPT

Neogaia777 · Sep 4, 2018

There is a danger when the letter of the law replaces the spirit of it... Which is something I think Jesus wanted to show out to them also... Cause they thought he was law breaker when he actually was not... I think he wanted to cause a stir in that area, maybe on purpose to rub their little noses in it maybe, I don't know, maybe not... But, there is a clear danger when the letter of the law replaces or superceeds the Spirit of it... I wonder if it's comparable to flesh and spirit...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Sep 4, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
There is a danger when the letter of the law replaces the spirit of it... Which is something I think Jesus wanted to show out to them also... Cause they thought he was law breaker when he actually was not... I think he wanted to cause a stir in that area, maybe on purpose to rub their little noses in it maybe, I don't know, maybe not... But, there is a clear danger when the letter of the law replaces or superceeds the Spirit of it... I wonder if it's comparable to flesh and spirit...?

God Bless!

The God of both covenants and the God of covenants, knew that we just were not going to "get it"... not the Spirit of it, not like Christ did, how both covenants are the same one, and how that reflects the Spirit or God of it/them... What the law really means, what it represents, reflected in the two...

God Bless!

Bible Highlighter · Sep 4, 2018

discipler7 said:
No, wrt

Well, I am assuming "wrt" means "with respect to" and it is not a typo. Correct?

You said:
salvation in the afterlife, God only paid the price for Adam's Original Sin at the Cross, which Sin that all fallen Man have inherited during birth, ie Jesus Christ was sacrificed as the Lamb of God on the Cross mainly to save fallen Mankind from hell when they die, and minorly to forgive their sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking to give them healing and deliverances from the curses of their sins/evil-deeds. ...

ROMANS.5: = Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— ... For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

Did you just say God paid the price for only Adam's sin at the cross?
Then how are we saved if Jesus did not die for our sins?
You are not making any sense.

Romans 5:12 is in reference to how in Adam, we all have died spiritually. Yet in Jesus, we have forgiveness of sins. However, this forgiveness of sins is only in context to past sin only and not future sin. For the very next chapter says this:

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid." (Romans 6:1-2).

Basically Paul is saying that we cannot continue in sin so that grace may abound. He is against that idea. He says, "God forbid."

Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who WALK NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).

So your silly idea that you can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus does not hold any water.

6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Romans 8:6-8).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

You said:
Didn't I say at 1CORINTHIANS.5:5 that God would permit Satan to destroy the flesh (= dies young) of the unrepentant Gentile Christian incest-sinner or other sexually-immoral sinners.? Here you go falsely accusing me of encouraging Gentile Christians who have been saved by faith in the Cross of Jesus Christ to continue to do evil and horrible things upon other people. Did I say that George Sodini was 100% saved.? Didn't Paul send many Jewish Christians to their death before he was converted by Jesus.?
....... Whatever it is, no one can negate the promise/word of God to save from hell those who place their faith in Jesus Christ.

You suggested that George Sodini would have been saved if he placed his faith genuinely in Jesus Christ (despite what he did). Is this not what you believe? Is this not what you are still saying now? For do you not believe that the man in 1 Corinthians 5:5 is a believer who died in unrepentant sin of sexual immorality and yet he was still saved? Yet, you are saying I am falsely accusing you that a believer can continue in sin? However, you are implying by the words that you said so far that a believer can sin and still be saved and that only a belief is necessary for salvation. For do you believe like I do that holiness and fruitful works are necessary for salvation? I don't think so. There are only two options here.

You either believe:

(a) Belief alone is necessary for salvation (and this does not include Works or holiness).
(b) Belief and Works (which would include holiness) is necessary for salvation.

If you believe Option A., you are teaching a doctrine of immorality because you are telling people they can just believe and it does not really matter if they sin because sin will not keep them out of heaven. Chastisement and or hurting others is not always the proper motivation to get a believer to truly stop in their sin or evil. If one has a paid ticket to Heaven by having a belief on Jesus alone, then why lift a finger for God? A person can curse God by their actions and still be saved. But did not Jesus have a problem with the Pharisees because they said one thing and did another? Did He not call them hypocrites? To me, to say that we have to follow the good book (that has a bunch of commands in it), and then say those commands are not necessary as a part of being in God's good kingdom is contradictory. We either obey God because we are of God, or we obey sin because we are of the devil. There is no middle ground here. A person shows forth the kind of person they are by their deeds (Please re-read 1 John 3:10).

You said:
Why did God grant the Gentile Christians exemptions from His laws that are a burden(ACTS.15:24-29 & 21:25).? = because for the weaker Gentile Christians(compared to Jewish Christians), everlasting life in the kingdom of heaven through faith in Jesus Christ trumps a better and longer life on earth through the works of keeping the Law or Moses Law.
.......Requiring Gentile Christians to keep all or most of Moses Law, eg circumcision and kosher food, may cause some of them to abandon or lose their newfound faith in Christ due to the heavy burdens of the Law. For Jewish Christians, Moses Law is not a burden because they have kept it since childhood as former Jews.

I don't believe in following the Law of Moses as a whole or package deal. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 is talking about the Old Testament Law of Moses (as a whole or package deal) and it is not talking about the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers. That is why the ceremonial laws like the Sabbath, circumcision, etc. are no longer binding for the believer anymore. Did you even notice what they said in Acts of the Apostles 21:25? They wanted to stress that there were things that they had to still do from the Old Law like they had to keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. If the Old Law was no more, then why would they say for us to avoid in doing these other things? It's because they are necessary.

You said:
Hence, in USA and the West, legalistic religions like Judaism and Islam do not hold much attraction for the people. Seems, you are trying to turn Christianity into another legalistic religion, eg "Not loving your neighbor is a salvation issue", "Christians must feed the hungry, clothe the naked, take in strangers and visit sick prisoners, in order to remain saved", etc.

One wrong extreme is Law Alone Salvationism and the other wrong extreme is Antinomianism (or a sin and still be saved type belief). Before you seem to say that I falsely accused you that a believer can sin and still be saved. But this is what you are saying when you believe that not loving your neighbor does not deal with salvation. Paul says in Romans 13:8-10 that loving your neighbor is the equivalent of the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc.). So this means that you believe that murder, coveting, and or stealing is not a salvation issue for a Christian. Right?

You said:
MATTHEW.9: = 12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

What do physicians or doctors do? They heal a person of their sickness. The disease is their sinful condition. They should no longer sin if they are healed by Jesus because sin is the sickness or problem that controls their life. Jesus said He calls sinners to repentance. Peter told Simon to repent of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Ghost. Peter told Simon to pray that God would forgive him. So repent means to seek God's forgiveness by way of prayer. In Luke 15, we see a repeated theme of repentance (3 times). In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, we see the Prodigal Son was willing to seek his father's forgiveness and confess his sins before all of Heaven as a part of his doing wrong. All three parables deal with salvation here. The rejoicing in Heaven over one sinner that repents is the same as the Prodigal Son who came home and there was much rejoicing because he was willing to seek forgiveness with his Father. So yes. Jesus desires us to seek mercy with Him. God did not desire the OT saints to always just mindlessly perform sacrifices without seeking His forgiveness. That is what they were doing. They did not seek God's forgiveness. This is evident in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. The Pharisee did not humble himself before God and admit his own sin in order to initially get his heart right with God so he could then walk uprightly with the Lord and help those who do struggle with sin (Instead of just condemning them). The blood of goats and bulls never took away sin permanently. They had to keep revisiting the same past sins over and over again. But with Jesus, our past sins can be forever forgiven by Him if genuinely repent. Meaning we have to confess and forsake our sins. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 4, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Even before the cross we see some interesting things. Jesus was not trying to show support for Sabbath law by upholding it to the degree that was expected in that society. In fact, he was known as a Sabbath-breaker, not a Sabbath-keeper. Very controversial and provoking behavior on his part. I think he was setting the law aside.

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 9:16
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

While it is remotely possible that Jesus could have slightly changed the Sabbath prior to the cross (Before He abolished the Sabbath Law entirely with His death), it is highly unlikely He did that because He essentially said king David did not break the Sabbath and in another time Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (like helping a neighbor's animal out of a ditch).

I believe the words that say that Jesus did not keep the Sabbath in John 5:18, and John 9:16 is speaking from the Pharisees perspective or from the Pharisee's version of keeping the Sabbath (which was based upon man made tradition). Remember, Jesus pointed out to us that the Pharisees had undone the Word of God by their own man made traditions before (See Matthew 15:4-6).

IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

Old Soul

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Old Soul

Old Soul

Old Soul

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

He’s a Way of life

Newbie

Old Soul

Old Soul

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Similar threads