Could most modern translations be in error?

redleghunter

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It is not difficult to apprehend the passages you cited. In Heb 6, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance because they are "crucifying" and "shaming" Christ. The Greek verb tenses are present tense - "and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (NIV) The fact that they are still engaged in such actions, demonstrates that they have not repented since they are still engaged in the sin of crucifying and disgracing grace. Where there is no repentance it is thus impossible to renew them repentance.
Does not help out your cause.


The same principle applies in Heb 10 - IF we go on SINNING WILLFULLY...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Continuous, habitual sin in the life of the believer that is not repented of results in no forgiveness and spiritual death.

Again not helping out your cause.

In Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 we have a final Judgment. There is no indication of a later parole. Yes God is Love but He is also Holy and will Judge.
 
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redleghunter

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If you want to learn, I suggest you study the doctrine of apokatastasis. I have studied this subject for years and there are many factors to consider which are too lengthy to discuss here. You may want to do your own due diligence and arrive at your own conclusions.
Very familiar with apokatastasis.

I think there have been well meaning and loving Christians throughout history with the hope that those damned will be restored. We should hope no one rejects Christ Jesus. But the Scriptures are clear. This life we have on earth is the time to accept or reject Messiah Jesus Son of the Living God. We who hear and reject Christ reject the Father’s gift of Grace in Christ’s blood. If we reject Him we are judged. The Love of God is that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

We all have to answer the same question Jesus posed to His disciples. “Who do you say that I am?”

Remembering that when Peter said “you are the Christ the Son of the Living God” Jesus said, “For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.”

God is indeed Love. He is also Holy, Holy, Holy and Judge. And His Judgment is Righteous.

His Gospel is His Love. Reject His Gospel you reject His Love and His Son. That is why there is a Great White Throne judgment and some are judged according to their works and not the Works of Christ.

No matter of punishment in the Lake of Fire will purge the unrepentant heart.
 
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redleghunter

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Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
The Mosaic covenant was about obedience to God’s Law. Obey and you would be part of the nation of Israel with the blessings of fruitful harvest, a home without disease, and plenty of children. Reject God and His Law you were put outside the camp and with that the curses. The capital punishment according to the Law was to remove the wickedness from the camp or nation of Israel. They were covenant breakers and as such were deprived of their very lives.

The Mosaic covenant was a temporal covenant and as such death cut off a member from the temporal promises. An appropriate comparison to the New Covenant which is eternal in the Blood of Christ. Reject the New Covenant and one is outside the camp cut off.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Hyperbole. I notice universalists resort to the “monster God” meme when confronted with the fact God Judges. It’s not bad with regards to adding a bit of rhetoric to an argument, but it is a conversation killer. Because once you go “unfeeling terminator machine or sadist” and refer to God ignoring He is Righteous Judge and Holy, the argument has hit rock bottom.

I’ll add that given the answers you present, why would a loving God let anyone suffer even a nanosecond in the Lake of Fire? Why not just hand out get out of jail free cards on Judgement Day? Why all that seals, trumpets and vials of Wrath before then indiscriminately killing billions over a 7 year period? Why punishment at all?

CS Lewis is right. Everyone in the Lake of Fire ends up there because they chose to be there.
 
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redleghunter

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Really? Where does it say that? If find your reasoning to be quite imaginative.
Earth is creation which is temporal. The seen. Heaven is out of space and time which is eternal. The unseen.
 
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ClementofA

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Those were all temporal chastisements meted out by the church or by apostles.

Says nothing of what happens after the GWT Judgement.

God's way of dealing with the type of ex-Christians you referred to (Heb.6,10) is to correct them for their own good (1 Tim.1:19-20; cf. 1 Cor.5:4-5). How much more so those lessor sinners. Why should God suddenly change His ways 180 degrees with men just because they've exited this world? Does His love have an expiry date? Does the blood of Christ shed for the lost ever lose its power?

The blood of Christ they rejected in this temporal world? Is that not the purpose of the GWT Judgement in Revelation 20 and as Jesus describes in Matthew 25?

Why have a Judgement at all?

What do you think? For some sadistic pleasure? What was the purpose of the judgments i already posted (1 Tim.1:19-20; 1 Cor.5:4-5)? Scripture is full of similar judgments for the good of offenders. That's what a good God does. Scripture says God is good, not bad.

Yes Christ died for mankind that we should be reconciled in the blood, His Blood, of the New Covenant. Yet as I posted the passages from Hebrews, those who reject Christ make His blood to no effect trampling the Son of God under foot.

Clearly His blood is of no effect to those who "count it an unholy thing" (Heb.10:29). They need to repent & confess their sins for them to be washed away by His blood (1 Jn.1:7,9).
 
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redleghunter

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You avoid explaining how God will reconcile all to him.
The verse does not state all people will be reconciled.

Colossians 1:NASB

15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. 19For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

21Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. 22But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creationd under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.(NASB)


The peace is through the blood of the cross. Which some have or will reject as we see in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20.

The context does not lead to those in the Lake of Fire being reconciled. We know this by other Scriptures:

John 3: NASB
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.” (
NASB)

Indeed Christ came so no one would perish. Then immediately following this we see those who believe will not be condemned and those who don’t believe have been condemned already. That is those who reject the Grace of God.

Ephesians 1:NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

11In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory.

13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.


Besides all the language of elect, chosen and predestined we see in verse 10 a plan to bring all things in Heaven and on Earth together in Christ. Such is smack in the middle of explaining God has an elect who will gain an inheritance. Once again nothing about people in the Lake of Fire being reconciled. Only the eternal and temporal brought together.

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We are either sons of disobedience or adopted sons of God. It is God’s Gospel of Grace which is His Love. Some will accept this and the Righteousness of Christ Jesus and some will not. God will Judge.

All means all. That is the simple meaning of the verse which you are forced to modify in order to fit into the false teaching of eternal torment. Every knee and every tongue will acknowledge Jesus as Lord but you have to disavow that in order to fit your belief system.

Show me where this means all condemned for their unbelief and disobedience will be reconciled.

Show me where all who bow the knee are God’s adopted sons and daughters.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Christ as King. When He comes as conquering King (Revelation 19).
 
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redleghunter

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"Vincent's Word Studies
At the name of Jesus (ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι)
Rev., better, in the name. The name means here the personal name; but as including all that is involved in the name. See on Matthew 28:19. Hence the salutation is not at the name of Jesus, as by bowing when the name is uttered, but, as Ellicott rightly says: "the spiritual sphere, the holy element as it were, in which every prayer is to be offered and every knee to bow." Compare Ephesians 5:20." https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/vnt/philippians-2.html

"In the NT κάμπτω is found only in combination with γόνυ (γόνατα), and in this connection it is used trans. with γόνυ (γόνατα) as obj. (R. 11:4; Eph. 3:14) and instrans. with γόνυ as subj. (R. 14:11; Phil.2:10)."

"κάμπτειν γόνυ (γόνατα) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship before the one whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgement scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 11:4 κάμπτειν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14...is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer" (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.3, p.594-595, Heinrich Schlier, ed. Kittel., Eerdmans, 1978).

"2:10-11 These final verses of the christologial hymn describe the universal homage and acclamation that will be accorded the one whose name ranks above all others...the adoration is in honour of the exalted Christ...the parallel words of v.11b describe explicitly the act of reverence as paid directly to the Son and 'to the glory of God the Father'. It is clear that Jesus is the one being worshipped."

"...'Every knee shall bow'. The universal scope of the adoration offered to Jesus as Lord is described by the words 'every knee shall bow' and 'every tongue confess'. (v.11)...The bending of the knee was an expression denoting great reverence and submission in the OT, especially marking the humble approach of the worshipper who felt his need so keenly that he could not stand upright before God. While the usual position in prayer was that of standing (e.g., Je. 18:20; 1 Ki. 18:15; 17:1, etc), in times of special need or extremity the worshipper fell on his knees (so Ez. 9:5, 15). Likewise in the Gospels people stand to pray (Lk.18:11, 13) and Jesus assumes His disciples will stand (cf. Mt.6:5); but when there is an acute sense of need or urgent entreaty, the supplicant falls down before God. So Jesus in Gethsemane bows down in lowly submission and distress (Mt.26:9; Mk.14:35; Lk.22:41). The bowing of the knee here at Phil. 2:10, as Martin puts it, is 'a mark of extreme abasement and submission (as in Eph. iii.14) and denotes that the universal homage marks the subjection of those who kneel to the lordship of Christ'.47"

"...Is. 45:22-25...The Lord...swears solemnly by his own life that 'every knee will bow before me; by me every tongue will swear'...the words of v.23, which are reiterated in Phil. 2:10-11, express the notion of the universal and final homage to Yahweh.

"...By invoking Is.45:23 as its proof-text the author of the hymn and the...community in which the hymn originated live 'in confident expectation that this salvation will soon be universally visible'.55"

(The New International Greek Testament Commentary (NIGTC): The Epistle to the Phillipians, Peter T. Obrien, 1991, p.233ff)

"bend the knee in worship, LXX Is.45.23, etc.":

https://translate.academic.ru/κάμπτω/el/xx/
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=ka/mptw

"No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch8_neglected_age.html

"Talbot argues Paul anticipated this exhaustive reconciliation because of the verb he chose: confess. According to Talbot, “he chose a verb that throughout the Septuagint implies not only confession, but the offer of praise and thanksgiving as well.”3 He goes on to suggest that, while a king or queen could force a subject to bow against their will, praise and thanksgiving can only come from the heart:

" “either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.4” "

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth inrighteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Where is the mention of those in the Lake of Fire will do this?

Why is there judgement in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20?
 
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redleghunter

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Does the blood of Christ shed for the lost ever lose its power?
The issue is the very blood of Christ is rejected. The blood of the New Covenant.

Rejected. They reject Christ and His sacrifice. That is why those who do so are judged. If they did not reject Christ then there would be no need for Judgment.
 
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redleghunter

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Clearly His blood is of no effect to those who "count it an unholy thing" (Heb.10:29). They need to repent & confess their sins for them to be washed away by His blood (1 Jn.1:7,9).
The very blood they rejected.

Your position is those who do not believe the Blood of Christ forgives all sins, somehow will come to do so after a few rounds of punishment in the Lake of Fire.

What is they saying about Love?
 
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ClementofA

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Because once you go “unfeeling terminator machine or sadist” and refer to God ignoring He is Righteous Judge and Holy, the argument has hit rock bottom.

I don't consider the fact God had rebels stoned to death in the OT to be "ignoring He is Righteous Judge". Nor that the writer of Hebrews asks re a sorer punishment being deserved for NT rebels. Clearly the comparison between OT & NT rebels against God in the context of a mere stoning is infinitely far from implying a punishment of endless tortures or annihilation. Such endless fates have never entered the heart of God. It wouldn't even enter His heart to have children burned in fire as with the god Moloch in the OT. How much more so the needless, sadistic, endless & pointless tortures that never end.


I’ll add that given the answers you present, why would a loving God let anyone suffer even a nanosecond in the Lake of Fire? Why not just hand out get out of jail free cards on Judgement Day?

That wouldn't save them, eradicate evil from the universe, bring them into blissful harmony with all other created beings, or set them free from sin to enjoy the abundant endless life of God in Christ Jesus.


Why all that seals, trumpets and vials of Wrath before then indiscriminately killing billions over a 7 year period? Why punishment at all?

This relates to the problem of evil. We have (1) free will, (2) & without the experience & knowledge of evil we could never appreciate the good in our lives, God or His Son's sacrifices for us. Furthermore, the experience of evil (3) works with the goal of salvation (cf. 1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:19-20) in mind & (4) for the humbling of humanity (Eccl.1:13). It will (5) be removed from existence & is but momentary relative to the future joy that awaits everyone, for its sting will be cured through the Cross by the Healer of all.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

CS Lewis is right. Everyone in the Lake of Fire ends up there because they chose to be there.

According to the apostle John they don't dive into the lake, but are cast there. No doubt no one will want to stay there for very long.
 
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ClementofA

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Your position is those who do not believe the Blood of Christ forgives all sins, somehow will come to do so after a few rounds of punishment in the Lake of Fire.

Some people come to believe in Christ after a few rounds of punishment in this life. Take Saul, for example, who became the apostle Paul. Jesus said to him, Saul, Saul, it is hard for you to kick against the goads.

Some people don't find Christ till old age on their death bed, after a life of misery enslaved to sins. Like one of the criminal on a cross beside Jesus, perhaps.

Doubting Thomas had been with Jesus for years witnessing His miracles & hearing the Truth. Yet he refused to believe in His resurrection even after Jesus told him about it & his disciples witnessed to him of seeing Him risen. He denied the Lord that bought him.

Likewise with Peter who denied Him 3 times.

How many rounds of punishment did those of 1 Tim.1:19-20; 1 Cor.4:5 experience in this life?
 
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ClementofA

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Rejected. They reject Christ and His sacrifice. That is why those who do so are judged. If they did not reject Christ then there would be no need for Judgment.

Judgement doesn't mean pointless, endless, sadistic, hopeless, insane, useless tortures that never end.

Judgement involves, rather, a purpose of correction:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Similarly:

1 Cor.5:3b I have already pronounced ***JUDGEMENT*** on the one who did this, just as if I were present

1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
 
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ClementofA

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Where is the mention of those in the Lake of Fire will do this?

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth inrighteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that ***IN*** the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

Why is there judgement in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20?

In Scripture the judgement of the wicked is for their own good.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
 
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ClementofA

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John 3: NASB
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.” (
NASB)

Indeed Christ came so no one would perish. Then immediately following this we see those who believe will not be condemned and those who don’t believe have been condemned already. That is those who reject the Grace of God.

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. (Jn. 3:16).

In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive "should" is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” https://translate.academic.ru/ἵνα/el/xx/

More literal versions of John 3:16 say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They go to "hell" until they repent & are saved, since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/anent-garry-wills-and-the-dbh-version/
 
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Pneuma3

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Hebrews 6: NASB

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Hebrews 10: NASB
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

What does this have to do with those who do not know God?
These scriptures are talking about Christians or as those scriptures state the LORDS own people.

So according to your own doctrine would that not mean God cannot even save His own people?
What a terrifying gospel that is.
 
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Pneuma3

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The verse does not state all people will be reconciled.

what about this one

2 Co.5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
 
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Pneuma3

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In Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 we have a final Judgment. There is no indication of a later parole. Yes God is Love but He is also Holy and will Judge.

Do you believe that final judgment is the judgment of the world?

Ok so you believe God is love
God is holy

And God is a just judge.

Two people. one a christian who believes in God and one who does not.
The one who believes in God slanders, talks bad of others in the church and in general treats others like crap.
The one who does not know God, keeps his own counsel, believes in the old saying if you do not have anything nice to say don't say anything at all and in general treats everyone in a kind manner.

Now according to the eternal torment doctrine the christian gets to go to heaven even if he lived like hell on earth and the one who did not know God and treated others as he would have them do unto him get to go to eternal torment.

Can you explain how that is JUST?

And please don't say you do not know any Christians like that because I think we have all met some just like that.
 
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Pneuma3

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Where is the mention of those in the Lake of Fire will do this?

Why is there judgement in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20?

Fire is recognized the world over as a symbol of life and brimstone is regarded as having the power to purify.

STRONGS NT 2303: θεῖον

θεῖον, θείου, τό (apparently the neuter of the adjective θεῖος equivalent to divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off contagion (but Curtius, § 320 allies it with θύω; cf. Latinfumus, English dust)), brimstone: Luke 17:29; Revelation 9:17; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 19:20; (Revelation 20:10); Revelation 21:8. (Genesis 19:24; Psalm 10:6 (Ps. 11:6); Ezekiel 38:22; Homer, Iliad 16, 228; Odyssey 22, 481, 493; (Plato) Tim. Locr., p. 99 c.; Aelian v. h. 13, 15 (16); Herodian, 8, 4, 26 (9 edition, Bekker).)

Thus the lake of fire and brimstones purpose is an aion of ones life being purified.
 
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redleghunter

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According to the apostle John they don't dive into the lake, but are cast there. No doubt no one will want to stay there for very long.
There's still the issue of those who do not enter the rest of Christ. Meaning covenant rejectors. The very means of their salvation was or will be rejected on Judgment Day.
 
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redleghunter

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Some people come to believe in Christ after a few rounds of punishment in this life. Take Saul, for example, who became the apostle Paul. Jesus said to him, Saul, Saul, it is hard for you to kick against the goads.

Some people don't find Christ till old age on their death bed, after a life of misery enslaved to sins. Like one of the criminal on a cross beside Jesus, perhaps.

Doubting Thomas had been with Jesus for years witnessing His miracles & hearing the Truth. Yet he refused to believe in His resurrection even after Jesus told him about it & his disciples witnessed to him of seeing Him risen. He denied the Lord that bought him.

Likewise with Peter who denied Him 3 times.

How many rounds of punishment did those of 1 Tim.1:19-20; 1 Cor.4:5 experience in this life?
Those were all temporal tests and chastisement for those who were either already believers or chosen of God in Paul's case.

There is no Biblical option B to the New Covenant in Christ's blood.
 
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