Could most modern translations be in error?

Oldmantook · Sep 1, 2018

Der Alter said:
Maybe I missed it did you answer my question, somewhere? Here it is again, "If those who have already been reconciled to God have to continue in their faith and do not move from the hope in the gospel to continue to be reconciled, what do the unrepentant have to do and when do they have do it?"

I just answered that. See my previous post above.

Der Alter said:
Follow on question. Paul presupposes that some who have been reconciled will depart from the faith and will move from the hope in the gospel. What do you think happens if they do not meet the condition Paul stated? Does God reconcile them again?
[NIV]Hebrews 6:4-6
(4) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
(5) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
(6) and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

I'm surprised that you who consider yourself adept at the original Greek text do not notice the verb tenses in this passage. In v.6, the verbs "crucify" and "subject to disgrace" are correctly translated as present tense participles. Hence despite having once been enlightened, these believers are now in the continuous act of crucifying and subjecting Jesus to public disgrace. Their ongoing action manifestly demonstrates that they have not repented and since they have not repented, it is impossible for God to renew them to repentance. Quite simple isn't it? No repentance = no forgiveness. As a result they are now lost. I suppose that IF these people genuinely repented and stopped crucifying and disgracing Christ, they would be granted forgiveness, but the text itself does not address that possibility since they evidently showed no inclination toward repentance.

Oldmantook · Sep 1, 2018

Hillsage said:
I don't know if I'm alone in my thoughts here, but I believe reconciliation is a two way street. First, is US being reconciled to GOD. Second is GOD being reconciled to US. Jesus paid the price for all humanity as far as God is concerned at the cross. Matters not if you believe or don't believe, it was His unilateral work and it is a finished work. Since the cross WE have been given the ministry of reconciliation to man. We can't say God will forgive and reconcile you, when you believe. That's not biblical.

ROM 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

And when did this reconciliation happen? When Jesus died, or when we believed? It was by his DEATH not his life.

2CO 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Nothing here is saying we have to 'believe' to be reconciled 'to' God. But, if 'we believe' then God will be reconciled TO US, because it is US who is at enmity with God as unbelievers. His enmity was taken care of by Jesus. Debt paid in full for all and forever. And our part in the "ministry of reconciliation" is not to tell people you will be forgiven if you believe. Our message is Jesus DID DIE for the forgiveness of your sins 2000 years ago. So quit being unreconciled toward God and start SAVING your lives with the imparted life of Jesus. That was Peter's message on Pentecost; He told them to 'repent', get 'water baptized', and then 'receive the Holy Spirit' and then.... "SAVE YOURSELVES from this wicked generation." Hmmm, nothing about saving ourselves from ETERNAL HELL. He must have 'forgot' that important orthodox doctrine (for our Armenian brothers).

Now, is there still judgment from God upon those of us who have believed? You bet there is, scripture is full of it. But it's purpose isn't to 'GET US TO HEAVEN', it's to get 'the HELL out of us' here and now that we might be "overcomers", that we might experience "life AND life abundant" 'here AND hereafter'.

The 'eternal' reconciliation is His part. Working out the 'temporal' reconciliation of 'God is on my/our side', is our part.

So, OMT am I alone in this 'reconciliation is a two way street' understanding?

I think our being reconciled to God is essentially a covenant relationship. As demonstrated in the OT, the Israelites were in covenant with God. God was always faithful in keeping his obligations to the covenant while the Israelites well - not so much. In the NT, the same applies as God will save all and has in fact done so via the atonement. However, mankind has an obligation to believe and to persevere in obedience but each individual in his own time.

ClementofA · Sep 1, 2018

Oldmantook said:
Apparently, you neglected to notice the phrase "under the earth." Just what do you suppose that means? Who are those under the earth? Is is not those in the grave? Thus ALL of those in the grave - whether saved or unsaved will bow their knees and confess with their tongues that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Was redleghunter not referring to Col.1:20 which speaks of heaven & earth, but no LOF.

redleghunter · Sep 1, 2018

Oldmantook said:
Apparently, you neglected to notice the phrase "under the earth." Just what do you suppose that means? Who are those under the earth? Is is not those in the grave? Thus ALL of those in the grave - whether saved or unsaved will bow their knees and confess with their tongues that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Where is that in Colossians 1?

Hillsage · Sep 1, 2018

Oldmantook said:
I think our being reconciled to God is essentially a covenant relationship. As demonstrated in the OT, the Israelites were in covenant with God. God was always faithful in keeping his obligations to the covenant while the Israelites well - not so much. In the NT, the same applies as God will save all and has in fact done so via the atonement. However, mankind has an obligation to believe and to persevere in obedience but each individual in his own time.

I see eternal forgiveness as a unilateral act of God on our behalf and there is no covenant concerning that point, that I know of in scripture. We have been forgiven since the cross and we aren't 'forgiven' IF we receive it, or not. Receiving that forgiveness doesn't make us anymore forgiven as far as God is concerned. It's only as far as WE'RE concerned, in that we first FEEL His love and forgiveness.

I do agree ALL will receive, even though we all know most 'then' didn't, and 'now' won't, in the ages past and present. But as you said; "each individual in his own time." Praise be to God.

If I am 'alone' in that don't worry about disagreeing with me. We both got the main part, I'm certainly not going to sweat the rest. But if you want to 'swing steel'

Just know this; As an old packing plant guy I know that; "iron sharpens iron" only when both 'steels' have the right angle/attitude. But only 'sparks fly' when the 'attitude/angle is bad. I believe our steels would be capable of sharpening.

redleghunter · Sep 2, 2018

Oldmantook said:
I think our being reconciled to God is essentially a covenant relationship. As demonstrated in the OT, the Israelites were in covenant with God. God was always faithful in keeping his obligations to the covenant while the Israelites well - not so much. In the NT, the same applies as God will save all and has in fact done so via the atonement. However, mankind has an obligation to believe and to persevere in obedience but each individual in his own time.

Which covenant will cover those in the Lake of Fire who rejected the Divine Logos and His sacrifice? Would not there need to be a post Judgment Day new new covenant since those in the Lake of Fire rejected the New Covenant and therefore the blood of Christ?

Pneuma3 · Sep 2, 2018

Hillsage said:
I don't know if I'm alone in my thoughts here, but I believe reconciliation is a two way street. First, is US being reconciled to GOD. Second is GOD being reconciled to US. Jesus paid the price for all humanity as far as God is concerned at the cross. Matters not if you believe or don't believe, it was His unilateral work and it is a finished work. Since the cross WE have been given the ministry of reconciliation to man. We can't say God will forgive and reconcile you, when you believe. That's not biblical.

ROM 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

And when did this reconciliation happen? When Jesus died, or when we believed? It was by his DEATH not his life.

2CO 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Nothing here is saying we have to 'believe' to be reconciled 'to' God. But, if 'we believe' then God will be reconciled TO US, because it is US who is at enmity with God as unbelievers. His enmity was taken care of by Jesus. Debt paid in full for all and forever. And our part in the "ministry of reconciliation" is not to tell people you will be forgiven if you believe. Our message is Jesus DID DIE for the forgiveness of your sins 2000 years ago. So quit being unreconciled toward God and start SAVING your lives with the imparted life of Jesus. That was Peter's message on Pentecost; He told them to 'repent', get 'water baptized', and then 'receive the Holy Spirit' and then.... "SAVE YOURSELVES from this wicked generation." Hmmm, nothing about saving ourselves from ETERNAL HELL. He must have 'forgot' that important orthodox doctrine (for our Armenian brothers).

Now, is there still judgment from God upon those of us who have believed? You bet there is, scripture is full of it. But it's purpose isn't to 'GET US TO HEAVEN', it's to get 'the HELL out of us' here and now that we might be "overcomers", that we might experience "life AND life abundant" 'here AND hereafter'.

The 'eternal' reconciliation is His part. Working out the 'temporal' reconciliation of 'God is on my/our side', is our part.

So, OMT am I alone in this 'reconciliation is a two way street' understanding?

No you are not alone here hills, I also see it much the same way. Reconciled by his death and saved by his life.

Hillsage · Sep 2, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
No you are not alone here hills, I also see it much the same way. Reconciled by his death and saved by his life.

Thank you Jesus....and P3, someone to share the 'broom closet with'.

Oldmantook · Sep 2, 2018

redleghunter said:
Where is that in Colossians 1?

Col 1:20 specifically declares the God will "reconcile all things to himself" as His stated purpose. Explain to me how those in the LOF suffer torment forever and are never reconciled to God according to your view?? According to you, the unsaved are never reconciled to God and consequently suffer eternally do they not? Thus your belief is in direct conflict with God's stated purpose in Col 1:20. Since we know that scripture interprets scripture, when we read Phil 2:10-11 it aligns with God's stated purpose in Col 1:20. God is reconciled to all when one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus as Lord whether they be in heaven, on the earth or under the earth.

Oldmantook · Sep 2, 2018

Hillsage said:
I see eternal forgiveness as a unilateral act of God on our behalf and there is no covenant concerning that point, that I know of in scripture. We have been forgiven since the cross and we aren't 'forgiven' IF we receive it, or not. Receiving that forgiveness doesn't make us anymore forgiven as far as God is concerned. It's only as far as WE'RE concerned, in that we first FEEL His love and forgiveness.

I do agree ALL will receive, even though we all know most 'then' didn't, and 'now' won't, in the ages past and present. But as you said; "each individual in his own time." Praise be to God.

If I am 'alone' in that don't worry about disagreeing with me. We both got the main part, I'm certainly not going to sweat the rest. But if you want to 'swing steel' Just know this; As an old packing plant guy I know that; "iron sharpens iron" only when both 'steels' have the right angle/attitude. But only 'sparks fly' when the 'attitude/angle is bad. I believe our steels would be capable of sharpening.

I think we are in agreement for the most part. I agree that God chose to provide the way to unilaterally forgive us. However I added the covenant aspect because Scripture specifies obligation/responsibility on man's part. We are required to believe (Jn 3:16) and obey (Heb 5:9). In time, every individual will bow their knee and with their tongue confess Jesus as Lord (Phil 2:10-11). These are volitional acts that we do that ultimately result in Jesus being the Savior of the world as he draws/drags all men to Himself. It is tragic the the gospel message that is now preached has been so distorted that the Good News is instead the bad news as most Christians believe that the vast majority of humankind suffer eternally in the LOF.

Oldmantook · Sep 2, 2018

redleghunter said:
Which covenant will cover those in the Lake of Fire who rejected the Divine Logos and His sacrifice? Would not there need to be a post Judgment Day new new covenant since those in the Lake of Fire rejected the New Covenant and therefore the blood of Christ?

The New Covenant applies to all of mankind. The pertinent question is when does it become efficacious for each individual. The requirements of the New Covenant don't change which are belief and obedience. Those who reject Christ in the life because of unbelief and disobedience are subject to chastisement in the LOF until every knee bows and every tongue in heaven, on the earth and under the earth confesses Jesus Christ as Lord to the glory of the Father (don't forget that the LOF is on the earth).

redleghunter · Sep 2, 2018

Oldmantook said:
The New Covenant applies to all of mankind. The pertinent question is when does it become efficacious for each individual. The requirements of the New Covenant don't change which are belief and obedience. Those who reject Christ in the life because of unbelief and disobedience are subject to chastisement in the LOF until every knee bows and every tongue in heaven, on the earth and under the earth confesses Jesus Christ as Lord to the glory of the Father (don't forget that the LOF is on the earth).

I asked because Hebrews goes into extensive discussions on the fate of those who knowingly reject Christ Jesus as savior and Lord:

Hebrews 6: NASB

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Hebrews 10: NASB
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Those who reject Christ in this life will be judged for putting Christ to shame again, trampling under foot the Son of God, regarding as unclean the blood of the covenant and insulted the Spirit of Grace. Yet somehow being in torment in the Lake of Fire amends for the aforementioned?

How can such souls call upon the blood of Christ shed for the new covenant after rejecting such and trampling under foot the Son of God?

You would have to offer that their individual suffering in the Lake of Fire atones for their transgressions. Which would once again make the sacrifice of Christ to no effect.

I'll ask again...what does the Lake of Fire covenant look like? Those there have rejected the New Covenant in Christ's own blood.

redleghunter · Sep 2, 2018

Oldmantook said:
Col 1:20 specifically declares the God will "reconcile all things to himself" as His stated purpose. Explain to me how those in the LOF suffer torment forever and are never reconciled to God according to your view??

Colossians 1:20 speaks of reconciling the temporal (earth creation) with the eternal. As seen in Revelation 21-22 .

Never mentions those at the GWT judgment will get parole.

Oldmantook said:
According to you, the unsaved are never reconciled to God and consequently suffer eternally do they not?

That is why they are called unsaved .

Oldmantook said:
Thus your belief is in direct conflict with God's stated purpose in Col 1:20. Since we know that scripture interprets scripture, when we read Phil 2:10-11 it aligns with God's stated purpose in Col 1:20. God is reconciled to all when one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus as Lord whether they be in heaven, on the earth or under the earth.

The Philippians reference does not support all and the unsaved will be reconciled. It means everyone even the demons will acknowledge Jesus as King.

Even in the Gospels demons would proclaim Jesus as the Son of God or Son of man. This was not a profession of faith in Christ but acknowledging what they knew to be fact and true. As James says even the devils believe there is one God.

ClementofA · Sep 2, 2018

redleghunter said:
Those who reject Christ in this life will be judged for putting Christ to shame again, trampling under foot the Son of God, regarding as unclean the blood of the covenant and insulted the Spirit of Grace. Yet somehow being in torment in the Lake of Fire amends for the aforementioned?

No, sufferings don't "amend" for anything. It's the same principle as the sufferings those endure who had believed but later rejected their faith & trampled Christ (just as those in Heb. 6 & 10) in this life:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Similarly:

1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

redleghunter said:
How can such souls call upon the blood of Christ shed for the new covenant after rejecting such and trampling under foot the Son of God?

In the same way as those in the passages i posted above. How is it that they would not be able? Has God's love expired? Is the blood of Christ shed for them powerless?

redleghunter said:
You would have to offer that their individual suffering in the Lake of Fire atones for their transgressions. Which would once again make the sacrifice of Christ to no effect.

No & no.

1 Jn.2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Oldmantook · Sep 2, 2018

redleghunter said:
I asked because Hebrews goes into extensive discussions on the fate of those who knowingly reject Christ Jesus as savior and Lord:

Hebrews 6: NASB

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Hebrews 10: NASB
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Those who reject Christ in this life will be judged for putting Christ to shame again, trampling under foot the Son of God, regarding as unclean the blood of the covenant and insulted the Spirit of Grace. Yet somehow being in torment in the Lake of Fire amends for the aforementioned?

How can such souls call upon the blood of Christ shed for the new covenant after rejecting such and trampling under foot the Son of God?

You would have to offer that their individual suffering in the Lake of Fire atones for their transgressions. Which would once again make the sacrifice of Christ to no effect.

I'll ask again...what does the Lake of Fire covenant look like? Those there have rejected the New Covenant in Christ's own blood.

It is not difficult to apprehend the passages you cited. In Heb 6, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance because they are "crucifying" and "shaming" Christ. The Greek verb tenses are present tense - "and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (NIV) The fact that they are still engaged in such actions, demonstrates that they have not repented since they are still engaged in the sin of crucifying and disgracing grace. Where there is no repentance it is thus impossible to renew them repentance.

The same principle applies in Heb 10 - IF we go on SINNING WILLFULLY...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Continuous, habitual sin in the life of the believer that is not repented of results in no forgiveness and spiritual death.

If you want to learn, I suggest you study the doctrine of apokatastasis. I have studied this subject for years and there are many factors to consider which are too lengthy to discuss here. You may want to do your own due diligence and arrive at your own conclusions.

ClementofA · Sep 2, 2018

redleghunter said:
Hebrews 10: NASB
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Oldmantook · Sep 2, 2018

redleghunter said:
Colossians 1:20 speaks of reconciling the temporal (earth creation) with the eternal. As seen in Revelation 21-22 .

Never mentions those at the GWT judgment will get parole.

Really? Where does it say that? If find your reasoning to be quite imaginative.

redleghunter said:
That is why they are called unsaved .

You avoid explaining how God will reconcile all to him.

redleghunter said:
he Philippians reference does not support all and the unsaved will be reconciled. It means everyone even the demons will acknowledge Jesus as King.

Even in the Gospels demons would proclaim Jesus as the Son of God or Son of man. This was not a profession of faith in Christ but acknowledging what they knew to be fact and true. As James says even the devils believe there is one God.

All means all. That is the simple meaning of the verse which you are forced to modify in order to fit into the false teaching of eternal torment. Every knee and every tongue will acknowledge Jesus as Lord but you have to disavow that in order to fit your belief system.

ClementofA · Sep 2, 2018

redleghunter said:
The Philippians reference does not support all and the unsaved will be reconciled. It means everyone even the demons will acknowledge Jesus as King.

Even in the Gospels demons would proclaim Jesus as the Son of God or Son of man. This was not a profession of faith in Christ but acknowledging what they knew to be fact and true. As James says even the devils believe there is one God.

"Vincent's Word Studies
At the name of Jesus (ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι)
Rev., better, in the name. The name means here the personal name; but as including all that is involved in the name. See on Matthew 28:19. Hence the salutation is not at the name of Jesus, as by bowing when the name is uttered, but, as Ellicott rightly says: "the spiritual sphere, the holy element as it were, in which every prayer is to be offered and every knee to bow." Compare Ephesians 5:20." https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/vnt/philippians-2.html

"In the NT κάμπτω is found only in combination with γόνυ (γόνατα), and in this connection it is used trans. with γόνυ (γόνατα) as obj. (R. 11:4; Eph. 3:14) and instrans. with γόνυ as subj. (R. 14:11; Phil.2:10)."

"κάμπτειν γόνυ (γόνατα) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship before the one whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgement scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 11:4 κάμπτειν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14...is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer" (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.3, p.594-595, Heinrich Schlier, ed. Kittel., Eerdmans, 1978).

"2:10-11 These final verses of the christologial hymn describe the universal homage and acclamation that will be accorded the one whose name ranks above all others...the adoration is in honour of the exalted Christ...the parallel words of v.11b describe explicitly the act of reverence as paid directly to the Son and 'to the glory of God the Father'. It is clear that Jesus is the one being worshipped."

"...'Every knee shall bow'. The universal scope of the adoration offered to Jesus as Lord is described by the words 'every knee shall bow' and 'every tongue confess'. (v.11)...The bending of the knee was an expression denoting great reverence and submission in the OT, especially marking the humble approach of the worshipper who felt his need so keenly that he could not stand upright before God. While the usual position in prayer was that of standing (e.g., Je. 18:20; 1 Ki. 18:15; 17:1, etc), in times of special need or extremity the worshipper fell on his knees (so Ez. 9:5, 15). Likewise in the Gospels people stand to pray (Lk.18:11, 13) and Jesus assumes His disciples will stand (cf. Mt.6:5); but when there is an acute sense of need or urgent entreaty, the supplicant falls down before God. So Jesus in Gethsemane bows down in lowly submission and distress (Mt.26:9; Mk.14:35; Lk.22:41). The bowing of the knee here at Phil. 2:10, as Martin puts it, is 'a mark of extreme abasement and submission (as in Eph. iii.14) and denotes that the universal homage marks the subjection of those who kneel to the lordship of Christ'.47"

"...Is. 45:22-25...The Lord...swears solemnly by his own life that 'every knee will bow before me; by me every tongue will swear'...the words of v.23, which are reiterated in Phil. 2:10-11, express the notion of the universal and final homage to Yahweh.

"...By invoking Is.45:23 as its proof-text the author of the hymn and the...community in which the hymn originated live 'in confident expectation that this salvation will soon be universally visible'.55"

(The New International Greek Testament Commentary (NIGTC): The Epistle to the Phillipians, Peter T. Obrien, 1991, p.233ff)

"bend the knee in worship, LXX Is.45.23, etc.":

https://translate.academic.ru/κάμπτω/el/xx/
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=ka/mptw

"No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch8_neglected_age.html

"Talbot argues Paul anticipated this exhaustive reconciliation because of the verb he chose: confess. According to Talbot, “he chose a verb that throughout the Septuagint implies not only confession, but the offer of praise and thanksgiving as well.”3 He goes on to suggest that, while a king or queen could force a subject to bow against their will, praise and thanksgiving can only come from the heart:

" “either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.4” "

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth inrighteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Hillsage · Sep 2, 2018

Oldmantook said:
I think we are in agreement for the most part. I agree that God chose to provide the way to unilaterally forgive us. However I added the covenant aspect because Scripture specifies obligation/responsibility on man's part. We are required to believe (Jn 3:16) and obey (Heb 5:9).

I agree, but no where does it say our 'true eternal' forgiveness is based upon 'believing' and 'obeying'. Only our temporal soulish forgiveness and concomitant bodily immortality in this age are subject to loss, as I understand scripture.

John 3:16 speaks of "shall not perish", but only the soul and body can do so, not the spirit, which we are, and the only thing of us 'made in the image of God who is spirit'.

YLT Hebrews 5:9 and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,

I believe that Christ has given us the ability to overcome the last enemy of 'temporal death' in this age we are living in. I believe in immortality as the goal of us IF we also become "PERFECT" through suffering, as did Jesus. No scripture anywhere says we can't, that I know of anyway.

~Stewards of God's Grace
1PE 4:1 Christ, then, having suffered for us in the flesh, ye also with the same mind arm yourselves, because he who did suffer in the flesh hath done with sin,2 no more in the desires of men, but in the will of God, to live the rest of [the] time in the flesh;

I like to read the above with the understanding that the definite articles are added by carnal minded interpretations which don't understand our potential to be "overcomers" to the point of "perfection"....and "immortality".

RSV
Romans 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

As WE know, in the nominal translations 'eternal life' doesn't mean 'eternal life'...really. It means the 'life of God' that's available for us in this age. But I believe it is us who ends the potential life we have available to us 'in God', before the end of the age. How do we end it? By sin. Oh yes, our sins are 'forever forgiven', but they are still 'temporally deadly' to our soul and flesh.

Again in the YLT
ROM 2:-76 who shall render to each according to his works; 7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility - life age-during;

I know, I know....the broom closet just got a little roomier.

In time, every individual will bow their knee and with their tongue confess Jesus as Lord (Phil 2:10-11). These are volitional acts that we do that ultimately result in Jesus being the Savior of the world as he draws/drags all men to Himself. It is tragic the the gospel message that is now preached has been so distorted that the Good News is instead the bad news as most Christians believe that the vast majority of humankind suffer eternally in the LOF.

I do believe the above is true of every man not only "drawn/dragged" as you correctly said, but also "predestined, called, chosen, ordained to believe" by God. Not only in this age, but the ages past since the dawn of creation. Thankfully HIS plan is a bit more far sighted than the myopic plan of the nominal church. A plan that we see is 'short sighted' and 'eternally wrong'.

redleghunter · Sep 2, 2018

ClementofA said:
No, sufferings don't "amend" for anything. It's the same principle as the sufferings those endure who had believed but later rejected their faith & trampled Christ (just as those in Heb. 6 & 10) in this life:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Similarly:

1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Those were all temporal chastisements meted out by the church or by apostles.

Says nothing of what happens after the GWT Judgement.

ClementofA said:
In the same way as those in the passages i posted above. How is it that they would not be able? Has God's love expired? Is the blood of Christ shed for them powerless?

The blood of Christ they rejected in this temporal world? Is that not the purpose of the GWT Judgement in Revelation 20 and as Jesus describes in Matthew 25?

Why have a Judgement at all?

ClementofA said:
No & no.

1 Jn.2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)

Yes Christ died for mankind that we should be reconciled in the blood, His Blood, of the New Covenant. Yet as I posted the passages from Hebrews, those who reject Christ make His blood to no effect trampling the Son of God under foot.

I think at best one could argue annihilation but not universalism.

Could most modern translations be in error?

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