Are Christians the new chosen people?

OldWiseGuy

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And please help me out here..... where in scripture does it say this dispersion was to provide a welcoming place for the NT church to grow? Everything I have read in scripture implies that it was to punish Israel for it's disobedience.

See Revelation 12. Also peruse "British Israelism" (the narrative, not the criticism).

Regarding punishment, God had plans for the northern kingdom after they were exiled. It is to them that Jesus and the disciples were 'sent only'. It is the Jews who suffer continuing punishment per God's judgment.

To track the 'lost' tribes just track the trail of Christianity.
 
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Copperhead

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Genesis 49 indicates that the descendants of the 'lost' tribes exist in the latter days outside of Judea, the Jews excepted of course. If they were in the last dispersion (70 A.D.) they could be tracked and identified as are the Jews.

And Ezekiel gives ample reference that they will be gathered back to the land, initially in unbelief, in the latter days. Ezekiel 36-37 for instance, and that both houses, Judea and Israel, are represented. And when Ezekiel 4 is taken with Leviticus 26, it shows that the beginning of the Hebrews being regathered into the land and Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was predicted in scripture 2500 years prior to the event... virtually to the very day.

There was no dispersion in 70AD. And even northern tribes were living in the land during the time of Yeshua. Anna is mentioned as being from the tribe of Asher, a northern tribe, in the book of Luke and living in Jerusalem at the time of Yeshua being brought to the Temple. Jerusalem was sacked in 70AD, but the people were still in the land. Ever hear of the Bar Kokhba revolt of 135AD? Masada? Also, that there has been a significant Hebrew presence in the land since then. So much so that even during the times of the Crusades, many of the crusaders would slaughter Hebrews on a whim. In one event, 20,000 Hebrews in Jerusalem were rounded up into the great synagogue of Jerusalem and burned alive while the crusaders marched around singing "Christ We Adore Thee". They would have contests in various places in the land to see how many Hebrew babies they could get on a sword. The majority of the Hebrews (roughly 80%) in the land of Israel at the time of the formation of the modern state of Israel in 1948 were Sabras.... long time Hebrew generational occupants of the land.

And there are no lost tribes. The tribes started intermingling prior to the Babylonian exile and after that 70 year event, they were called Jews and Israelites interchangeably by Ezra and Nehemiah. Even the Apostle Paul called himself both an Israelite and a Jew in the same passage of Philippians 3
 
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OldWiseGuy

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There was no dispersion in 70AD.

The dispersion in 70AD is called The Diaspora, and The Great Diaspora of the Jews. It was the final destruction of the Jewish nation. Prior events were captivities, not dispersions.

We are really far apart on bible history.
 
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Copperhead

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The dispersion in 70AD is called The Diaspora, and The Great Diaspora of the Jews. It was the final destruction of the Jewish nation. Prior events were captivities, not dispersions.

We are really far apart on bible history.

Agreed.

Israel was not a independent nation since the Babylonian exile started. Even upon the Hebrews return, the land was under Mede / Persian control. Then Greek. Then the Maccabean revolt which it was still not a unified nation, but controlled by sectarian groups. Then the Roman Empire. Then the Muslims which led to the Ottoman Empire control for over 1000 years. Then under control by Great Britain from 1917 forward. Then finally, becoming a independent nation again in 1948.

The "nation" was not destroyed in 70 AD, since it did not exist as a nation in 70 AD. Something that doesn't exist cannot be destroyed. It is a non sequitur. The destruction done by Rome in 135 AD was more significant than 70 AD. 70 AD was primarily Jerusalem. 135 AD involved most everything from the Sea of Galilee to the Dead Sea. Look up Masada. And 135AD was when Jerusalem was essentially plowed under, the temple to Jupiter (Dome of the Rock) was placed on the Antonia fortress site (what many commonly call the temple mount today.)

While there was a major dispersion, there has always been a significant number of Hebrews in the land over the centuries. Jerusalem, Ashkelon, Jaffa, Caesarea, Gaza, and more. The primary dispersion of the Hebrew people did not occur under Rome. It had begun with the Babylonians.

Now, taking Ezekiel 4 into consideration. Poor ol Zeke is told to lay on one side then the other for a total of 430 days. Each day to represent a year that both Judah and Israel would be punished for disobedience.

70 of those years ticked off in the Babylonian exile. But when given the opportunity to return, only a remnant did with Ezra and Nehemiah. The majority of the people remained in rebellion for not returning. The Lord said that when the nation is not in the land, it profanes His name (Ezekiel 36:20).

In Leviticus 26, the Lord says that after the nation is punished, if they still remain in rebellion, their punishment would be magnified 7 times.

430 years of Ezekiel 4 minus the 70 years in Babylon leaves 360 years.

360 years multiplied by 7 is 2520 years. 2520 years on the 360 day Hebrew lunar calendar is 907,200 days. 907,200 days divided by the 365.25 day solar calendar we live under is 2483.8 years.

The decree of Cyrus that the Hebrew people could return was in the early fall of 537 BC. For math purposes, that would be roughly -536.4. -536.4 plus 2483.8 years is 1947.4. There is no "zero" year between BC and AD, so we add 1 year. That then becomes 1948.4, which is when the modern state of Israel was reborn.

The History is valid as I have stated it. The simple, plain sense of the scripture has been used following conservative Hermeneutic principles. Having been a mathematics minor student in college, I am confident the math is valid. I can't and won't take credit for being the one who discovered the correlation between Ezekiel 4 and Leviticus 26. One can blow it off if they want, but it might not be wise to dismiss it too quickly.
 
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berachah

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There are now no Jews or Gentiles, we are all one in Christ. We are grafted into the Jews who accepted Christ and through whom we received the Word of God. Those Jews that rejected Christ, rejected God and His covenant. What natural Jews (and none have any pure lineage) hold onto in the natural, all of it, is irrelevant to God and replaced. It was temporary and only purposed to lead to the new. Any natural Jew that is restored to God will be through the Body of Christ and not the law or the natural land or ordinances
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Agreed.

Israel was not a independent nation since the Babylonian exile started. Even upon the Hebrews return, the land was under Mede / Persian control. Then Greek. Then the Maccabean revolt which it was still not a unified nation, but controlled by sectarian groups. Then the Roman Empire. Then the Muslims which led to the Ottoman Empire control for over 1000 years. Then under control by Great Britain from 1917 forward. Then finally, becoming a independent nation again in 1948.

The "nation" was not destroyed in 70 AD, since it did not exist as a nation in 70 AD. Something that doesn't exist cannot be destroyed. It is a non sequitur. The destruction done by Rome in 135 AD was more significant than 70 AD. 70 AD was primarily Jerusalem. 135 AD involved most everything from the Sea of Galilee to the Dead Sea. Look up Masada. And 135AD was when Jerusalem was essentially plowed under, the temple to Jupiter (Dome of the Rock) was placed on the Antonia fortress site (what many commonly call the temple mount today.)

While there was a major dispersion, there has always been a significant number of Hebrews in the land over the centuries. Jerusalem, Ashkelon, Jaffa, Caesarea, Gaza, and more. The primary dispersion of the Hebrew people did not occur under Rome. It had begun with the Babylonians.

Now, taking Ezekiel 4 into consideration. Poor ol Zeke is told to lay on one side then the other for a total of 430 days. Each day to represent a year that both Judah and Israel would be punished for disobedience.

70 of those years ticked off in the Babylonian exile. But when given the opportunity to return, only a remnant did with Ezra and Nehemiah. The majority of the people remained in rebellion for not returning. The Lord said that when the nation is not in the land, it profanes His name (Ezekiel 36:20).

In Leviticus 26, the Lord says that after the nation is punished, if they still remain in rebellion, their punishment would be magnified 7 times.

430 years of Ezekiel 4 minus the 70 years in Babylon leaves 360 years.

360 years multiplied by 7 is 2520 years. 2520 years on the 360 day Hebrew lunar calendar is 907,200 days. 907,200 days divided by the 365.25 day solar calendar we live under is 2483.8 years.

The decree of Cyrus that the Hebrew people could return was in the early fall of 537 BC. For math purposes, that would be roughly -536.4. -536.4 plus 2483.8 years is 1947.4. There is no "zero" year between BC and AD, so we add 1 year. That then becomes 1948.4, which is when the modern state of Israel was reborn.

The History is valid as I have stated it. The simple, plain sense of the scripture has been used following conservative Hermeneutic principles. Having been a mathematics minor student in college, I am confident the math is valid. I can't and won't take credit for being the one who discovered the correlation between Ezekiel 4 and Leviticus 26. One can blow it off if they want, but it might not be wise to dismiss it too quickly.

You are conflating the punishment of the house of Judah with the house of Israel, something Ezekiel didn't do. The Jews were punished severely culminating in the holocaust, but not the house of Israel (which was fulfilling the 'birthright' promises given to Joseph), although the 'remnant' of the Jews which were 'cast into the fire' did bring a 'fire' to all Israel in that the WASP nations were fully involved with their plight in WW2. The Jews are still causing problems for the Christian nations of the West because of our 'kinship' with them.

The house of Israel was be punished for 360 years, which continued long after the Jews returned to Jerusalem under Ezra and Nehemiah, and long after the fall of Assyria. We actually don't know where they were and what their punishment consisted of in those days. We do know that Christ was 'sent only' to them to begin the new covenant ministry, if only briefly and symbolically before his death.
 
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Copperhead

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There are now no Jews or Gentiles, we are all one in Christ. We are grafted into the Jews who accepted Christ and through whom we received the Word of God. Those Jews that rejected Christ, rejected God and His covenant. What natural Jews (and none have any pure lineage) hold onto in the natural, all of it, is irrelevant to God and replaced. It was temporary and only purposed to lead to the new. Any natural Jew that is restored to God will be through the Body of Christ and not the law or the natural land or ordinances

The passage also states there are neither male or female. At the next church service you attend, have a bunch of men and women stand up in front of the congregation and strip and see if there is literally neither male or female.

That passage about neither Jew of Gentile is plainly speaking in a spiritual sense, not a literal, physical one. And it pertains only to those who are linked to Yeshua.

There still is a destiny for physical, literal, national Israel to accomplish. Acknowledge it's offense of rejecting Messiah and petition His return. Yeshua is not coming back until that event happens. It is one of the primarily reasons that Satan has tried to eliminate the Jewish people from the planet for centuries. If he can eliminate them, then there will be no national Israel to accomplish Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:2.

By extension, those who want to relegate physical Israel to an illegitimate entity are unwittingly supporting Satan's goal.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Copperhead

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Not according to Jewish historians. "The Great Revolt" was much more significant as it involved the destruction of the Temple worship, and is rivaled only by the Holocaust.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-great-revolt-66-70-ce

It was more significant, in terms of the Temple being destroyed and unification of the people. The Temple was the focal point of Jewish life and culture. But in terms of actual death and destruction and the final removal of any leadership of Israel, it was the Bar Kokhba revolt that was most significant. It sought to eliminate a Hebrew presence in the land altogether. Rome had had enough. This unruly people had to be negated to the level of even having a unified presence in the land if Rome was going to solve its problem.
 
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berachah

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The passage also states there are neither male or female. At the next church service you attend, have a bunch of men and women stand up in front of the congregation and strip and see if there is literally neither male or female.

That passage about neither Jew of Gentile is plainly speaking in a spiritual sense, not a literal, physical one. And it pertains only to those who are linked to Yeshua.

There still is a destiny for physical, literal, national Israel to accomplish. Acknowledge it's offense of rejecting Messiah and petition His return. Yeshua is not coming back until that event happens. It is one of the primarily reasons that Satan has tried to eliminate the Jewish people from the planet for centuries. If he can eliminate them, then there will be no national Israel to accomplish Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:2.

By extension, those who want to relegate physical Israel to an illegitimate entity are unwittingly supporting Satan's goal.

I am speaking spiritually and so should you. We are all one in Christ, including those Jews that accept Christ. The rebellious Jews who reject Christ are being used to establish natural Israel at this time. Your problem is carnality, which makes it easy to be drawn into the natural Israel deception which is the copy being established by the Antichrist. (the natural battle of Armageddon in natural Israel is a copy of the real spiritual battle against Christianity at the end of this age, and will allow Satan to come as the Messiah. In fact, he will come to replace the work Jesus previously fulfilled) Its the great deception warned about in Thessalonians - but few discern it, choosing rather to be misled by the copy in natural Israel. The natural land is actually under demonic bondage according to Paul. The Old has been done away with.

You are essentially supporting the replacing of Christ and his sacrifice with that which he fulfilled and replaced. Do you really believe God favours the natural Jews, their sacrifices and their ordinances over the blood and sacrifice of Christ. That's Satan's goal. Does God really restore to the 'promised land' before there is repentance? You cannot consistently tie this false return to natural Israel to any scripture. Prophecy of these events is always to 3 things ( the Jews exile and return in the OT, the work of Christ, and the spiritual events as they pertain to the Body of Christ during this dispensation) Anything else is deception.

At the end of this age the Jewish faith will accept that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah and that he died for their sins. But it has nothing to do with the natural land which irrelevant (except for the bondage of Christians mentioned above). The Jewish faith will receive Christ, become part of the Body of Christ and indeed revive the faith which will be in bondage to the end time Babylon system at that time. (due to the very same deception that is coming through your false theology).

Your doctrine is directly opposing that which God intends to do through the Jews in the future. Good news is that about 90% of Christians will believe your theology, so enjoy spreading the word.
 
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berachah

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Agreed.

Israel was not a independent nation since the Babylonian exile started. Even upon the Hebrews return, the land was under Mede / Persian control. Then Greek. Then the Maccabean revolt which it was still not a unified nation, but controlled by sectarian groups. Then the Roman Empire. Then the Muslims which led to the Ottoman Empire control for over 1000 years. Then under control by Great Britain from 1917 forward. Then finally, becoming a independent nation again in 1948.

The "nation" was not destroyed in 70 AD, since it did not exist as a nation in 70 AD. Something that doesn't exist cannot be destroyed. It is a non sequitur. The destruction done by Rome in 135 AD was more significant than 70 AD. 70 AD was primarily Jerusalem. 135 AD involved most everything from the Sea of Galilee to the Dead Sea. Look up Masada. And 135AD was when Jerusalem was essentially plowed under, the temple to Jupiter (Dome of the Rock) was placed on the Antonia fortress site (what many commonly call the temple mount today.)

While there was a major dispersion, there has always been a significant number of Hebrews in the land over the centuries. Jerusalem, Ashkelon, Jaffa, Caesarea, Gaza, and more. The primary dispersion of the Hebrew people did not occur under Rome. It had begun with the Babylonians.

Now, taking Ezekiel 4 into consideration. Poor ol Zeke is told to lay on one side then the other for a total of 430 days. Each day to represent a year that both Judah and Israel would be punished for disobedience.

70 of those years ticked off in the Babylonian exile. But when given the opportunity to return, only a remnant did with Ezra and Nehemiah. The majority of the people remained in rebellion for not returning. The Lord said that when the nation is not in the land, it profanes His name (Ezekiel 36:20).

In Leviticus 26, the Lord says that after the nation is punished, if they still remain in rebellion, their punishment would be magnified 7 times.

430 years of Ezekiel 4 minus the 70 years in Babylon leaves 360 years.

360 years multiplied by 7 is 2520 years. 2520 years on the 360 day Hebrew lunar calendar is 907,200 days. 907,200 days divided by the 365.25 day solar calendar we live under is 2483.8 years.

The decree of Cyrus that the Hebrew people could return was in the early fall of 537 BC. For math purposes, that would be roughly -536.4. -536.4 plus 2483.8 years is 1947.4. There is no "zero" year between BC and AD, so we add 1 year. That then becomes 1948.4, which is when the modern state of Israel was reborn.

The History is valid as I have stated it. The simple, plain sense of the scripture has been used following conservative Hermeneutic principles. Having been a mathematics minor student in college, I am confident the math is valid. I can't and won't take credit for being the one who discovered the correlation between Ezekiel 4 and Leviticus 26. One can blow it off if they want, but it might not be wise to dismiss it too quickly.

Meanwhile, this is what the Messianic Jews are saying.. what brings many Jews into the Body of Christ..
https://jewsforjesus.org/publicatio...c-time-table-according-to-daniel-the-prophet/
 
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Copperhead

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I am not replacing anything. It is still a requirement of scripture that the Hebrew leadership as a national identity will have to acknowledge the offense of rejecting Yeshua and petition for His return before He will. That requires a physical, literal, national Israel be in place for that to happen.

Hosea 5:15 thru Hosea 6:2 states this. Yeshua affirmed it in Matthew 23:39. They will finally accept Yeshua, which is what believers have done all along, and then the fulfillment of all that the Lord promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be realized. Yeshua will then be their King, sitting in the authority of David over the nation, in the millennial kingdom.

And He will be our king also, but unlike national Israel, we will be ruling with a rod of iron along side of Him as He promises in Revelation 2. All believers, both Jew and Gentile fall in this camp. But there will still be physical humans that go into the millennial kingdom to repopulate it. Unless some have some weird idea that the believers will be marrying and having kids even in their glorified bodies.

And those that make it thru the GT period, they will be separated into sheep and goats. It will be based on how they treated Yeshua's physical brethren, the people of Israel. The sheep will go into the kingdom also, along with physical Israel to also repopulate the earth.

Folks get all this skewed because they forget that there will be physical people in the millennial kingdom that will marry, bear children, sin, and in some cases die.
 
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berachah

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I am not replacing anything. It is still a requirement of scripture that the Hebrew leadership as a national identity will have to acknowledge the offense of rejecting Yeshua and petition for His return before He will. That requires a physical, literal, national Israel be in place for that to happen.

Hosea 5:15 thru Hosea 6:2 states this. Yeshua affirmed it in Matthew 23:39. They will finally accept Yeshua, which is what believers have done all along, and then the fulfillment of all that the Lord promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be realized. Yeshua will then be their King, sitting in the authority of David over the nation, in the millennial kingdom.

And He will be our king also, but unlike national Israel, we will be ruling with a rod of iron along side of Him as He promises in Revelation 2. All believers, both Jew and Gentile fall in this camp. But there will still be physical humans that go into the millennial kingdom to repopulate it. Unless some have some weird idea that the believers will be marrying and having kids even in their glorified bodies.

And those that make it thru the GT period, they will be separated into sheep and goats. It will be based on how they treated Yeshua's physical brethren, the people of Israel. The sheep will go into the kingdom also, along with physical Israel to also repopulate the earth.

Folks get all this skewed because they forget that there will be physical people in the millennial kingdom that will marry, bear children, sin, and in some cases die.

1. They are not Hebrews. Their own geneticists have stated they have over 85% non Hebrew genes. End of story. There is no pure link to the natural tribes of the Hebrews.
2. The state of Israel is a secular state, that does not even believe in God, except to get support from gullible western Christians. The 2nd most persecuted group in Israel are Orthodox Jews. Worldwide, they reject the state of Israel saying it is contrary to every thing in the Torah (read up about it)
3. Jewish repentance and restoration does not require a national state. IN ANY FORM. Their reconciliation is to the Body of Christ, not to the land, the sacrificial system or anything else of the Old. They are in fact in bondage because they chose to stick to the Old and reject the New.
4. God rejected the Jews because they rejected Christ. You are now saying, God now accepts them in the Land of promise, even though they still denounce and reject Christ. Even before they have repented!! That would be a first.
5. The world will come under the Antichrist world govt. That regime will be established in part by the events in Israel. Israel will become the religious capital of the world for the one world religion. Yes, Zionists have the intent to rule the world under a single religion established by the Antichrist as he draws all the faiths into one fake, copy body. They will however persecute Christians, mostly because of their own stupidity in yielding to this deception.

You are living under the Old, my friend. Just don't get circumcised or start following the rest of the Law. It was replaced because it leads to death, not life.
 
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Copperhead

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. They are not Hebrews. Their own geneticists have stated they have over 85% non Hebrew genes. End of story. There is no pure link to the natural tribes of the Hebrews.

I am pretty sure there are legitimate Hebrews in a physical sense.

Even Yeshua's own lineage, Boaz was only half Hebrew since he was the son of Rahab. And he married Ruth, a Moabitess. That meant that their child Obed was only 1/4 Hebrew. But He was the grandfather of David the King. Obeb, being 1/4 Hebrew was still considered a Hebrew and a patriarch of the lineage of the Messiah.

It is a really trying to stretch the rubber band to suggest that just because one doesn't have a subjective percentage of Hebrew blood that they are not considered Hebrew.

. The state of Israel is a secular state, that does not even believe in God, except to get support from gullible western Christians. The 2nd most persecuted group in Israel are Orthodox Jews. Worldwide, they reject the state of Israel saying it is contrary to every thing in the Torah

Well, Duh! Of course it is secular! Have you not read Ezekiel? The nation would be restored initially in unbelief. And because a particular Jewish group doesn't accept the modern state of Israel is not "thus sayeth the Lord" like scripture. It is a running joke, even in Jewish circles, that you ask 2 Jews a question and you will get 3 answers.

. Jewish repentance and restoration does not require a national state. IN ANY FORM. Their reconciliation is to the Body of Christ, not to the land, the sacrificial system or anything else of the Old. They are in fact in bondage because they chose to stick to the Old and reject the New.

We can agree a little here. No, it doesn't take a national state for individual repentance and restoration, but Yeshua made it quite clear that He would not return until, as a nation, they acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him, turn to Him, and petition His return. Again, that is plain, in your face scripture. Yeshua affirmed that Hosea prophecy in Matthew.

God rejected the Jews because they rejected Christ. You are now saying, God now accepts them in the Land of promise, even though they still denounce and reject Christ. Even before they have repented!! That would be a first.

God did cast off national Israel for their sin, again as Hosea said would be the case, but it was primarily to open the door for Gentiles to enter in. It was primarily to show that it was not required to join with Israel to be joined with God as it had prior to Yeshua's coming. But also, Paul makes it very clear that this casting off is only temporary. That all Israel would be saved. So, there has to be a physical, literal people of Israel to save.

The world will come under the Antichrist world govt. That regime will be established in part by the events in Israel. Israel will become the religious capital of the world for the one world religion. Yes, Zionists have the intent to rule the world under a single religion established by the Antichrist as he draws all the faiths into one fake, copy body. They will however persecute Christians, mostly because of their own stupidity in yielding to this deception.

The scripture also says that when the people in the land of Judah see the false messiah break the covenant with Israel and set up the abomination in the Temple, that many will flee and be protected from Satan and the false messiah. Many passages in both OT and NT express that. And, I believe, that is when the corporate, national leadership of Israel will finally wake up and realize their big mistake and turn to the Lord and petition for the Messiah. And indeed, He will come and destroy their enemies and restore them.
 
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