Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

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Free will is a Greek vanity? No, historically it is immutable predestination that came from the Greek philosophers. That's why no one in the church held it before Augustine and why they condemned it as one of the false teachings of the gnostics.

Clemens (a.d. 69) “Let us therefore consider, brethren, out of what matter we are made; who and what we were when we came into the world, as out of the grave and darkness itself; who, having made and formed us, brought us into his world having first prepared his good things for us, before we were born,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 p. 88.).

“This blessedness comes upon those that are chosen of God by Jesus Christ our Lord,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 p. 114).

“God hath chosen the Lord Jesus Christ, and us by him,” (Episi. ad Corinth. p. 130, 114.).

“When he wills, and as he wills, he does all things; none of those things which are decreed by him, shall pass away,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 p. 64.)

Irenaeus (c. 130-c. 200): This manner of speech may perhaps be plausible or persuasive to those who know not God, and who liken Him to needy human beings, and to those who cannot immediately and without assistance form anything, but require many instrumentalities to produce what they intend. But it will not be regarded as at all probable by those who know that God stands in need of nothing, and that He created and made all things by His Word, while He neither required angels to assist Him in the production of those things which are made, nor of any power greatly inferior to Himself, and ignorant of the Father, nor of any defect or ignorance, in order that he who should know Him might become man.8 But He Himself in Himself, after a fashion which we can neither describe nor conceive, predestinating all things, formed them as He pleased, bestowing harmony on all things, and assigning them their own place, and the beginning of their creation. In this way He conferred on spiritual things a spiritual and invisible nature, on super-celestial things a celestial, on angels an angelical, on animals an animal, on beings that swim a nature suited to the water, and on those that live on the land one fitted for the land—on all, in short, a nature suitable to the character of the life assigned them—while He formed all things that were made by His Word that never wearies. ANF: Vol. I, Against Heresies, Book 2:2:4.

“God predetermining all things for the perfection of man, and for the bringing about and manifestation of his dispositions, that goodness may be shown, and righteousness perfected, and the church be conformed to the image of his Son, and at length become a perfect man, and by such things be made ripe to see God, and enjoy him,” (Irenaeus adv. Haeres. 50:4, c. 72, p. 419.)

Clement of Alexandria (150 - c. 215): From what has been said, then, it is my opinion that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one, and that in it those who according to God’s purpose are just, are enrolled.186 For from the very reason that God is one, and the Lord one, that which is in the highest degree honourable is lauded in consequence of its singleness, being an imitation of the one first principle. In the nature of the One, then, is associated in a joint heritage the one Church, which they strive to cut asunder into many sects. Therefore in substance and idea, in origin, in pre-eminence, we say that the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, collecting as it does into the unity of the one faith—which results from the peculiar Testaments, or rather the one Testament in different times by the will of the one God, through one Lord—those already ordained, whom God predestinated, knowing before the foundation of the world that they would be righteous. ANF: Vol. II, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVII.​

Huh? No one before Augustine? The above is not a complete selection of topical quotes from pre-Augustine "Fathers", but they make the point, for the sake of the truth of the matter. Be not deceived on these matters people of God.
 
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timtams

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Clemens (a.d. 69) “Let us therefore consider, brethren, out of what matter we are made; who and what we were when we came into the world, as out of the grave and darkness itself; who, having made and formed us, brought us into his world having first prepared his good things for us, before we were born,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 p. 88.).

“This blessedness comes upon those that are chosen of God by Jesus Christ our Lord,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 p. 114).

“God hath chosen the Lord Jesus Christ, and us by him,” (Episi. ad Corinth. p. 130, 114.).

“When he wills, and as he wills, he does all things; none of those things which are decreed by him, shall pass away,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 p. 64.)

Irenaeus (c. 130-c. 200): This manner of speech may perhaps be plausible or persuasive to those who know not God, and who liken Him to needy human beings, and to those who cannot immediately and without assistance form anything, but require many instrumentalities to produce what they intend. But it will not be regarded as at all probable by those who know that God stands in need of nothing, and that He created and made all things by His Word, while He neither required angels to assist Him in the production of those things which are made, nor of any power greatly inferior to Himself, and ignorant of the Father, nor of any defect or ignorance, in order that he who should know Him might become man.8 But He Himself in Himself, after a fashion which we can neither describe nor conceive, predestinating all things, formed them as He pleased, bestowing harmony on all things, and assigning them their own place, and the beginning of their creation. In this way He conferred on spiritual things a spiritual and invisible nature, on super-celestial things a celestial, on angels an angelical, on animals an animal, on beings that swim a nature suited to the water, and on those that live on the land one fitted for the land—on all, in short, a nature suitable to the character of the life assigned them—while He formed all things that were made by His Word that never wearies. ANF: Vol. I, Against Heresies, Book 2:2:4.

“God predetermining all things for the perfection of man, and for the bringing about and manifestation of his dispositions, that goodness may be shown, and righteousness perfected, and the church be conformed to the image of his Son, and at length become a perfect man, and by such things be made ripe to see God, and enjoy him,” (Irenaeus adv. Haeres. 50:4, c. 72, p. 419.)

Clement of Alexandria (150 - c. 215): From what has been said, then, it is my opinion that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one, and that in it those who according to God’s purpose are just, are enrolled.186 For from the very reason that God is one, and the Lord one, that which is in the highest degree honourable is lauded in consequence of its singleness, being an imitation of the one first principle. In the nature of the One, then, is associated in a joint heritage the one Church, which they strive to cut asunder into many sects. Therefore in substance and idea, in origin, in pre-eminence, we say that the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, collecting as it does into the unity of the one faith—which results from the peculiar Testaments, or rather the one Testament in different times by the will of the one God, through one Lord—those already ordained, whom God predestinated, knowing before the foundation of the world that they would be righteous. ANF: Vol. II, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVII.​

Huh? No one before Augustine? The above is not a complete selection of topical quotes from pre-Augustine "Fathers", but they make the point, for the sake of the truth of the matter. Be not deceived on these matters people of God.
It shows that you have copied and paste others' research as you're clearly unaware of what these writers (and all early Christian writers) said about free will. E.g.:

Irenaeus:
This expression [of our Lord], "How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,"597 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God.
 
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It shows that you have copied and paste others' research as you're clearly unaware of what these writers (and all early Christian writers) said about free will. E.g.:

Irenaeus:
This expression [of our Lord], "How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,"597 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God.

Pot meet kettle.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter IX
Of Free Will

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.
 
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You think Irenaeus was only speaking of how it was in the beginning and not how it is now? Perhaps you should read him before posting.

Perhaps you have no idea what I have read and what I have not read? Perhaps if you're as familiar with the material from ECF as you seem to suggest, you really ought to be honest about predestination as it is in both the Scriptures and in ECF? Greek philosophers my foot!

When he wills, and as he wills, he does all things; none of those things which are decreed by him, shall pass away,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 p. 64.) Clemens

Reads like an absolute to me, but enjoy trying to explain his words away through the assumption of those autonomous glasses.
 
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timtams

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Perhaps you have no idea what I have read and what I have not read? Perhaps if you're as familiar with the material from ECF as you seem to suggest, you really ought to be honest about predestination as it is in both the Scriptures and in ECF? Greek philosophers my foot!
Then why didn't you read Irenaeus' context before posting your mistaken response? I'm not going to butt heads and egos on here with a cut and paster who hasn't done their hw. You're going to have to find someone else to play those games with.
 
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Loren T.

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Clemens (a.d. 69) “Let us therefore consider, brethren, out of what matter we are made; who and what we were when we came into the world, as out of the grave and darkness itself; who, having made and formed us, brought us into his world having first prepared his good things for us, before we were born,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 p. 88.).

“This blessedness comes upon those that are chosen of God by Jesus Christ our Lord,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 p. 114).

“God hath chosen the Lord Jesus Christ, and us by him,” (Episi. ad Corinth. p. 130, 114.).

“When he wills, and as he wills, he does all things; none of those things which are decreed by him, shall pass away,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 p. 64.)

Irenaeus (c. 130-c. 200): This manner of speech may perhaps be plausible or persuasive to those who know not God, and who liken Him to needy human beings, and to those who cannot immediately and without assistance form anything, but require many instrumentalities to produce what they intend. But it will not be regarded as at all probable by those who know that God stands in need of nothing, and that He created and made all things by His Word, while He neither required angels to assist Him in the production of those things which are made, nor of any power greatly inferior to Himself, and ignorant of the Father, nor of any defect or ignorance, in order that he who should know Him might become man.8 But He Himself in Himself, after a fashion which we can neither describe nor conceive, predestinating all things, formed them as He pleased, bestowing harmony on all things, and assigning them their own place, and the beginning of their creation. In this way He conferred on spiritual things a spiritual and invisible nature, on super-celestial things a celestial, on angels an angelical, on animals an animal, on beings that swim a nature suited to the water, and on those that live on the land one fitted for the land—on all, in short, a nature suitable to the character of the life assigned them—while He formed all things that were made by His Word that never wearies. ANF: Vol. I, Against Heresies, Book 2:2:4.

“God predetermining all things for the perfection of man, and for the bringing about and manifestation of his dispositions, that goodness may be shown, and righteousness perfected, and the church be conformed to the image of his Son, and at length become a perfect man, and by such things be made ripe to see God, and enjoy him,” (Irenaeus adv. Haeres. 50:4, c. 72, p. 419.)

Clement of Alexandria (150 - c. 215): From what has been said, then, it is my opinion that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one, and that in it those who according to God’s purpose are just, are enrolled.186 For from the very reason that God is one, and the Lord one, that which is in the highest degree honourable is lauded in consequence of its singleness, being an imitation of the one first principle. In the nature of the One, then, is associated in a joint heritage the one Church, which they strive to cut asunder into many sects. Therefore in substance and idea, in origin, in pre-eminence, we say that the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, collecting as it does into the unity of the one faith—which results from the peculiar Testaments, or rather the one Testament in different times by the will of the one God, through one Lord—those already ordained, whom God predestinated, knowing before the foundation of the world that they would be righteous. ANF: Vol. II, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVII.​

Huh? No one before Augustine? The above is not a complete selection of topical quotes from pre-Augustine "Fathers", but they make the point, for the sake of the truth of the matter. Be not deceived on these matters people of God.

Those quotes do not contradict Arminian theology. Corporate election is right there along with foreknowledge.
1. This expression [of our Lord], "How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,"597 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, "But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God." "But glory and honour," he says, "to every one that doeth good."598 God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.
2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it,-some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man's power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, "All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient; "606 referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect "all things are lawful," God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] "not expedient" pointing out that we "should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,607 for this is not expedient. And again he says, "Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour."608 And, "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks."609 And, "For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord."610 If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

(Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV)
 
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timtams

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Those quotes do not contradict Arminian theology. Corporate election is right there along with foreknowledge.
Agreed, though if a poster isn't going to accept a clear quote from Irenaeus, I doubt they would be receptive to an alternative interpretation of those words.
 
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JLB777

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Matthew 26:24 “The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” (Mark 14:21)

Luke 22:22 “And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”

John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

John 13:18I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

John 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.


Yes.

Even though Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other Apostles, he wandered away and became lost.


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.​


Judas never repented, and returned to Christ to be reconciled, but rather he hung himself.


Peter on the other hand did repent and was restored.



JLB
 
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sdowney717

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Yes.

Even though Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other Apostles, he wandered away and became lost.


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.​


Judas never repented, and returned to Christ to be reconciled, but rather he hung himself.


Peter on the other hand did repent and was restored.



JLB
Christ though prayed for Peter, we hear nothing of any prayers for Judas.
Jesus tells us He does not pray for the world.
Judas is of the world, not of the Father, not of Christ, Judas was a devil, a wolf in sheep's clothes.

Luke 22:31-34 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial
31 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”

33 But he said to Him, “Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death.”

34 Then He said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.”

When Christ talks with Judas, Christ tells Judas to go on with the betrayal, to do it quickly. There was never any hint of prayer for Judas or any turning back in repentance in Judas's future

John 13
26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” 28 But no one at the table knew for what reason He said this to him. 29 For some thought, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus had said to him, “Buy those things we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor.

30 Having received the piece of bread, he then went out immediately. And it was night.


John 18
8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.
 
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Yes.

Even though Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other Apostles, he wandered away and became lost.

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.​

Judas never repented, and returned to Christ to be reconciled, but rather he hung himself.

Peter on the other hand did repent and was restored.

If anything Judas would be a proof for double predestination, a proof of a predestination for the sons of perdition. There is no Scriptural evidence Judas was predestined for salvation in Christ, the Scripture evidence points to just the opposite. Personally I am a single predestinarian, that is predestination for the elect in Christ, which is God actively choosing individuals to salvation in Christ, while passing over the rest, allowing them to receive the justice all deserve. Sobering and humbling thoughts.
 
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JLB777

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Judas is of the world, not of the Father

I don’t know where you get this ideas you are promoting here but they are not from scripture.

“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. John 17:6-9


JLB
 
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JLB777

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If anything Judas would be a proof for double predestination, a proof of a predestination for the sons of perdition. There is no Scriptural evidence Judas was predestined for salvation in Christ,


There is no such thing as being predestined for salvation.

That is Heresy.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



JLB
 
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Loren T.

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You do know that Arminisms don't have a problem with the concept of predestination, only the way some apply it? There is quite a lot that God predestined to happen, not by removing man's choices, but simply because he is wise enough to bring about his plans in spite of man and, or, in cooperation with men. When you get to this idea on an individual level, we see that God predestining Isaac for a certain Job, or Moses, or Abraham did not result in them doing everything in perfect agreement with God's will. God didn't will their sin, but he works around and even through it, to bring about his salvation plan. And when we read that those he predestined he glorified and so on, it's there to encourage us that if the people he chose for a job were carried through as long as they relied on God, he will do the same for us, who are chosen by faith to be part of a group of individuals called the Saints. But we know when we read "predestined to be conformed to the likeness" of God's Son" it doesn't mean that God is molding anyone into his Son's likeness against their will or by changing their will, but it only happens as we continue to trust in him. As Tozer said, man is free because God is sovereign. Determinists get this backwards.
 
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Anto9us

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Most Arminians accept predestination by FOREKNOWLEDGE -- God foresees who will believe and persevere in believing.

Some Arminians see a CORPORATE PREDESTINATION ( a class of people - BELIEVERS - have been predestined for salvation...)

INDIVIDUAL PREDESTINATION is the more classical view.

Many Arminians would agree with Total Depravity, but might define it differently than TULIPers
 
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sdowney717

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If anything Judas would be a proof for double predestination, a proof of a predestination for the sons of perdition. There is no Scriptural evidence Judas was predestined for salvation in Christ, the Scripture evidence points to just the opposite. Personally I am a single predestinarian, that is predestination for the elect in Christ, which is God actively choosing individuals to salvation in Christ, while passing over the rest, allowing them to receive the justice all deserve. Sobering and humbling thoughts.

Something about Esau people may not have noticed.
Many know of this verse 13


Romans 9:12-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

But what of this.

Hebrews 12:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

For Esau there was no repentance found for him from God.
God must grant that you can repent with God, that is to obtain mercy with God regarding that gift of eternal life, to be blessed of God, your tears or emotions, are of no consequence.
God has compassion and love for whom He wills according to His own eternal purposes, and does not consider the man, the man's will or desires, which really, consider, a man is ruled by his flesh, his emotions, his current situation, his temporality..
 
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childeye 2

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Irenaeus:
This expression [of our Lord], "How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,"597 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God.
What exactly does the phrase "free agent" denote in the context or dichotomy of ignorance and knowledge of God? It's meaningless unless meant to imply equivocating.

Surely the prodigal son was not free from ignorance when he desired/willed to leave his Father's house believing that he could prosper better elsewhere. And had his Father forced him to stay for his own good, it would not have informed his ignorance, but rather would have only compelled rebellion and resentment against the Father. No, the prodigal son needed to learn why and how to esteem his Father in Truth. Once the Truth was realized, he was not free from the power of that Truth, but was set free from his prior ignorance only but for the Truth. Hence the prodigal son sinned against the Father due to his ignorance and returned unto his Father's loving arms due to the knowledge gained through experience, but not due to any form of liberty that a phrase like "free agent" would imply.

Why is it that we tend to try and prove a free will with examples of sinfulness? Sin is not an ability, but rather a disability. This is why Jesus said that the sick need a doctor.
 
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Those quotes do not contradict Arminian theology. Corporate election is right there along with foreknowledge.

Something you might want to know...

"Historically, both Calvinists and Arminians have predominantly understood election unto salvation as individual.[25] That is, each individual is elected/selected to enter into a saving relationship with God through Christ.[26] The central difference between the two views is that Calvinists see election as unconditional[27] and Arminians see election as conditional on divine foreknowledge of human faith.[28] While corporate election is not the traditional Arminian position, it is totally consistent with Arminian theology because it is a conditional election—conditional upon union with Christ through faith.[29]" Source
 
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Bobber

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Mattthew 13:14 “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

Couple of ways to answer this...I'll say this you can hear what I'm saying but because you choose to have your thoughts going only one way you're not really understanding nor perceiving. To give an example if people who bound determined to believe Jesus was going to set up a kingdom in their generation they could hear what Jesus is saying of a different way but not perceiving. Still that choice could be theirs.

Mattthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

It wasn't the will of God yet for the message that Jesus was the Son of God to be revealed to a massive audience but only to his disciples . Read as well vs 20, "Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah." Matt 16:20 Of course that was changed shortly afterwards.

John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Doesn't prove anything to support your position.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Nope 1 Cor 2 was talking about the difference between mature Christians and immature carnal ones. You say carnal Christians isn't in the passage? Yes I know but it's mere 2 sentences (verses) away in 1 Cor 3:1-3. One has to understand the Bible wasn't written in chapter and verse.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 1 Cor 3:1-3

1 Cor 2 was talking about the deep things of God which you can see in verse 10. That's what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 3 that they couldn't see into or perceive anything but milk ...the basic essentials of the faith ....it didn't say they who were walking LIKE natural minded men couldn't get some spiritual truth....but the deep things not. Same with the unsaved. They can understand the basics but anything deep they cannot perceive.
 
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sdowney717

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Couple of ways to answer this...I'll say this you can hear what I'm saying but because you choose to have your thoughts going only one way you're not really understanding nor perceiving. To give an example if people who bound determined to believe Jesus was going to set up a kingdom in their generation they could hear what Jesus is saying of a different way but not perceiving. Still that choice could be theirs.



It wasn't the will of God yet for the message that Jesus was the Son of God to be revealed to a massive audience but only to his disciples . Read as well vs 20, "Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah." Matt 16:20 Of course that was changed shortly afterwards.



Doesn't prove anything to support your position.



Nope 1 Cor 2 was talking about the difference between mature Christians and immature carnal ones. You say carnal Christians isn't in the passage? Yes I know but it's mere 2 sentences (verses) away in 1 Cor 3:1-3. One has to understand the Bible wasn't written in chapter and verse.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 1 Cor 3:1-3

1 Cor 2 was talking about the deep things of God which you can see in verse 10. That's what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 3 that they couldn't see into or perceive anything but milk ...the basic essentials of the faith ....it didn't say they who were walking LIKE natural minded men couldn't get some spiritual truth....but the deep things not. Same with the unsaved. They can understand the basics but anything deep they cannot perceive.

According to your contention, only mature spiritual believers receive the things of the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


However, either a person has received the Spirit who is from God OR they have received the spirit of the world! So you are very mistaken.


A natural man cannot know the things of God, they are foolishness, what your suggesting is a natural man is saved, however such a man can not know Christ as God come in the flesh, because to a natural man all such talk is foolishness, they have received the spirit of the world, they have not received the Spirit who is from God..

Romans 8 also tells us carnal (natural ) minded persons cannot be subject to or submitted to God, they are at war with God. And it goes into clear details they are not Christs as a carnal mind walks according to the flesh and they will die.


3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.


v5 here in Romans 8, has to do with being born of God, so they live according to the Spirit of God, they are made alive who were dead. This is not a discussion about personal choices to be made. Either you live according to the Spirit or you live according to the flesh. Those who live according to the flesh are not belonging to Christ and they die.

 
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