Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

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a source of Arminian beliefs, it is not a message board, just articles

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Mattthew 13:14 “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

Mattthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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None of these statements mean we can't understand once God reveals himself, and Paul says even nature testifies to God. Do you think God is deliberately hiding himself from sinners? No, we can't disern it on our own, but God is not willing that any perish and he reveals himself to all. Not all receive him.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Mattthew 13:14 “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

Mattthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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None of these statements mean we can't understand once God reveals himself, and Paul says even nature testifies to God. Do you think God is deliberately hiding himself from sinners? No, we can't disern it on our own, but God is not willing that any perish and he reveals himself to all. Not all receive him.

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Bobber said:

No can't accept that. Jesus said the following,

And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. John 3:19

There's no indication here they saw less light or not enough to appreciate him. It says rather they just loved darkness .

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So you repented because you're morally superior to unbelievers?

Bobber said:

No can't accept that. Jesus said the following,

And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. John 3:19

There's no indication here they saw less light or not enough to appreciate him. It says rather they just loved darkness .

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So you repented because you're morally superior to unbelievers?

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Mattthew 13:14 “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

Mattthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Click to expand...

None of these statements mean we can't understand once God reveals himself, and Paul says even nature testifies to God. Do you think God is deliberately hiding himself from sinners? No, we can't disern it on our own, but God is not willing that any perish and he reveals himself to all. Not all receive him.

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Tree of Life said:

So you repented because you're morally superior to unbelievers?

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So you repented because God chose you over the next guy? What makes you special?

Tree of Life said:

So you repented because you're morally superior to unbelievers?

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I'll let God alone define what I was compared to other people, and NOT YOU nor what you think.

Tree of Life said:

So you repented because you're morally superior to unbelievers?

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I'll let God alone define what I was compared to other people, and NOT YOU nor what you think.

Loren T. said:

None of these statements mean we can't understand once God reveals himself,

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I see, so spiritual discernment isn't spiritual? There is no difference between how God reveals Himself to unrepentant sinners and repentant sinners?

Loren T. said:

and Paul says even nature testifies to God.

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Paul spoke of natural theology not in a positive light, but rather in a negative light of condemnation. The testimony of nature does not lead to salvation, nor to choosing Christ.

Loren T. said:

Do you think God is deliberately hiding himself from sinners? No, we can't disern it on our own, but God is not willing that any perish and he reveals himself to all. Not all receive him.

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Yes, the hiddeness of God is true to an extent, to a point. There are many examples in Scripture, many in the Old Testament, but I will quote a few from the New:

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. (Luke 10:21)

Matthew 13:44 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Luke 18:34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

Colossians 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

Colossians 2:3 [Christ] in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

A few Psalms, just because:

Psalms 10:11 He has said in his heart, “God has forgotten; He hides His face; He will never see.”

Psalms 13:1 HOW long, O LORD? Will You forget me forever? How long will You hide Your face from me?

Psalms 27:9 Do not hide Your face from me; Do not turn Your servant away in anger; You have been my help; Do not leave me nor forsake me, O God of my salvation.

Psalms 44:24 Why do You hide Your face, And forget our affliction and our oppression?

Psalms 51:9 Hide Your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities.

Psalms 69:17 And do not hide Your face from Your servant, For I am in trouble; Hear me speedily.

Psalms 88:14 LORD, why do You cast off my soul? Why do You hide Your face from me?

Psalms 102:2 Do not hide Your face from me in the day of my trouble; Incline Your ear to me; In the day that I call, answer me speedily.

Psalms 104:29 You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.

Psalms 143:7 Answer me speedily, O LORD; My spirit fails! Do not hide Your face from me, Lest I be like those who go down into the pit.

If David, an anointed by the Spirit, King of Israel, chosen by God, cries these words, how much more true are they of the unregenerate heathen?

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Yes, the hiddeness of God is true to an extent, to a point. There are many examples in Scripture, many in the Old Testament, but I will quote a few from the New:

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. (Luke 10:21)

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So you claim God has hidden things so only the elect can be saved. Answer me this if you would. What does this do to your doctrine of absolute depravity? I'll even give you another verse which I know the answer to from a non-Calvinsitic standpoint, BUT look at this one...

And He told them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those on the outside, everything is expressed in parables, so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.’” Mk 4:12

OK now it seems clear that he's saying if he just didn't speak in parables they might turn and be forgiven. Again why the need to do that if man's natural state without God doing anything would exclude him from being saved anyway. Isn't it obvious that Calvantic thinking falls short of properly understanding the scriptures?

Bobber said:

So you claim God has hidden things so only the elect can be saved.

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Actually I did not make that claim, I posted Scriptures showing the hiddeness of God. Are you claiming the non-elect can be saved? Seems to be underneath your statement.

Bobber said:

Answer me this if you would. What does this do to your doctrine of absolute depravity?

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It goes right along with the doctrine of total depravity as Reformed Churches have explained throughout history. It is an often misunderstood doctrine, it does not mean people are as sinful as they can possibly be at all times. It simply means that every part of a man's being has been corrupted by sin, the extent is to the whole person, every fiber of their being is tainted with corruption. Reformed also believe in what's called "common grace" and one such grace is the restraint of the sinfulness of sinners by the Spirit of God.

Bobber said:

I'll even give you another verse which I know the answer to from a non-Calvinsitic standpoint, BUT look at this one...

And He told them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those on the outside, everything is expressed in parables, so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.’” Mk 4:12

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Seems to be a more problematic verse for the non-Calvinist. Especially considering one of the favorite non-Calvinist verses is:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Which is easily exposited by the Calvinist explaining that the context of "us" controls the meaning of "any and "all", such that God is not willing that any of the elect should perish, but that all of the elect should come to repentance. Amazing how context clears things up.

Bobber said:

OK now it seems clear that he's saying if he just didn't speak in parables they might turn and be forgiven. Again why the need to do that if man's natural state without God doing anything would exclude him from being saved anyway. Isn't it obvious that Calvantic thinking falls short of properly understanding the scriptures?

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It's obvious that God is sovereign and we are not in Calvinism.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

I see, so spiritual discernment isn't spiritual? There is no difference between how God reveals Himself to unrepentant sinners and repentant sinners?

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If you mean the initial prompting from the Spirit to repentance, then of course not. There may be differences in the methods he uses. For some it has been dreams, others evangelists, others initially understand there is something more through nature and they pursue that thread until they arrive at Christ. But, the offer is the same.

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:

I didn't get my doctrines from Socrates, Xenophanes, Pythagorus, Plato, Aristotle or Theophrastus, or any of those ancient Greek philosophers.

I got it straight from the Bible.

I like to argue for the truth. I'm on fire for the Lord!

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If you're a calvinist, you did get your predestination idea from Greek philosophers, via Augustine.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. (Luke 10:21)

Matthew 13:44 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Luke 18:34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

Colossians 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

Colossians 2:3 [Christ] in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge

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Again, with the pulling verses out with no context...
Revealed to babes, why? Because they are the ones who have hearts to receive. Think about this for a moment. At some point, we are all innocent and can receive God's gift, but some grow hard hearted in their pursuit of knowledge over innocence. As usual, you are taking a statement about how we should receive the kingdom and making it deterministic. In fact, Jesus ends here with a plea to who ever will:

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

Matt 13...this is a parable with symbolic language, how doe it apply?

The Luke passage is just about God not revealing something to diciples until they were ready to receive it, nothing to do with salvation.

Colossians 1...is about the gospel now going out the gentiles and yes, the fullness of God's word, as it says, is only revealed to those who have become his. Obviously, this isn't about God hiding salvation from sinners.

Collossians 2...are you kidding me? This chapter is as "arminian" as it gets. I think perhaps cherry picking verses by key words is the most deceptive argument tactic ever.


2 I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5 For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

timtams said:

If you're a calvinist, you did get your predestination idea from Greek philosophers, via Augustine.

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And where did Paul get his idea?

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,


And where did Jesus get his idea?

Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

And where did Peter get his idea?

1 Peter 1:20 [Christ] He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

I am sure there are other Scriptures to support the idea of Predestination, the concept.

Bottom Line: Neither the Greek philosophers nor Augustine invented the doctrine of Predestination.

Loren T. said:

Again, with the pulling verses out with no context...Revealed to babes, why? Because they are the ones who have hearts to receive. Think about this for a moment. At some point, we are all innocent and can receive God's gift, but some grow hard hearted in their pursuit of knowledge over innocence. As usual, you are taking a statement about how we should receive the kingdom and making it deterministic. In fact, Jesus ends here with a plea to who ever will:

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Even the Arminian will not deny the doctrine of original sin, indeed it is also a Catholic and Lutheran doctrine.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

And where did Paul get his idea?

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,


And where did Jesus get his idea?

Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

And where did Peter get his idea?

1 Peter 1:20 [Christ] He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

I am sure there are other Scriptures to support the idea of Predestination, the concept.

Bottom Line: Neither the Greek philosophers nor Augustine invented the doctrine of Predestination.

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Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ and the other Apostles in the millennium.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


JLB

Apologetic_Warrior said:

And where did Paul get his idea?

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He didn't have a Greek conception of absolute immutable personal predestination, as Augustine (via Plotinus) and Calvin did. You're reading the Greek conception into his words.

JLB777 said:

Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ and the other Apostles in the millennium.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

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Matthew 26:24 “The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” (Mark 14:21)

Luke 22:22 “And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”

John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

John 13:18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

John 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

timtams said:

He didn't have a Greek conception of absolute immutable personal predestination, as Augustine (via Plotinus) and Calvin did. You're reading the Greek conception into his words.

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Are you claiming the writers of Scripture had no concept of the omniscience and immutability of God? The concepts of human autonomy, free will, and (random) autonomous chance (probability) and (unknowable) middle knowledge are the vanities of pagan Greek philosophers.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Are you claiming the writers of Scripture had no concept of the omniscience and immutability of God? The concepts of human autonomy, free will, and (random) autonomous chance (probability) and (unknowable) middle knowledge are the vanities of pagan Greek philosophers.

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Free will is a Greek vanity? No, historically it is immutable predestination that came from the Greek philosophers. That's why no one in the church held it before Augustine and why they condemned it as one of the false teachings of the gnostics.