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JudgeRightly;5267136 said:They rejected God, so God grants their wish of being separated from Him.
What if they change their mind postmortem? Then your God will still reject them, so he is the rapist you described, since he is forcing people away from him who don't want to be away from him, but wit him. So you're God is just like the Calvinist God you described as a forcing rapist.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:If someone is given an infinite number of chances to repent of their sin, since man is basically evil and rejects God naturally, then man will inherently reject God every chance they get, because they have an infinite number of chances afterwards to get it right. It would allow them to remain in their rebellion against God. And then when God would condemn them for not repenting, they would point their fingers at God and demand that he give them another chance, because he's already given them X number of chances.
You assume:
(1) they will somehow know they have an infinite number of chances. The fact is that God doesn't have to give them that knowledge. So your whole argument fails right there.
(2) you ignore the fact that they are suffering in hell which naturally motivates a human to want to end that suffering. Since salvation is the only way to do so, they must seek & find salvation to be delivered from their sufferings. With God's mercy, grace & evangelism in hell, they will be able to make choices for or against salvation. If they refuse salvation, then their sufferings in hell will justly continue.
I said:
People in this life don't know when "their chances run out", so how would they know postmortem?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:The only one here who says "no one knows when their chances would run out" is you, Greg.
What is that supposed to mean, that you have no rational answer to my comment?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:Do you know what the term "opportunity cost" means?
Do you have a point to make?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:Don't humble yourself before God in this life, then you will be humbled by Him in the next, and then because your name isn't in the Lamb's Book of Life, you will be cast into the Lake of Fire, along with Satan and the Antichrist, and those who took the mark of the beast, and with death and all of hell.
And thereafter God will be "all in all" & all in Adam will be "in Christ" (1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18-19, etc), so everyone will be in the book of life.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:You seem to think that God is the one doing the tormenting. As I've explained above, God isn't there, so He can't be tormenting anyone.
Evidently that was false, since you say they'll have freewill in hell to choose God, but God will force them to stay in hell anyway, thus making your "God" the tormentor for eternity & the endless rapist you described. Furthermore you said those in hell would be tormented by their thoughts of rejecting God, but what if they decided to always think happy thoughts instead? Then wouldn't hell become heaven. But, no, according to you they'll have these tormenting thoughts forever, so it must be your God forcing them to have those thoughts. Thereby making him the rapist you described once again.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:The "fire" in the lake of fire isn't a chemical reaction. It's the emotional pain of being permanently separated from their Creator. It's the pain of loneliness. It's the pain of realizing you were wrong, and now have to live with the consequences of your decision.
Who is forcing people in hell to be alone & separated from their friends in hell? What if they want to communicate with others there? Your "God" is forbidding it, once again causing their pain. Again, he is the rapist you described, forcing others against their will.
In my view when people truly repent & receive salvation postmortem they are saved. But in your view Love Omnipotent’s love has expired on them & they are shipped off to endless torments, whether they want to or not. IOW, you’re making God the rapist you described.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:Sins are not finite.
Man's mortal life premortem is finite. He can only commit a finite number of murders in such a life. He can only break the 10 commandments a finite number of times in that finite life. So his sins are finite within a finite time frame.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:And again, how many opportunities is one given in an average lifetime? The number is too high to count. And yet, people still choose to rebel against God, their Creator.
Really? Where are these ideas coming from? Some people never hear the gospel in a lifetime. Unless the Lord draws a man, it's impossible for him to come to God. Saul, who was a persecutor, inquisitionist & muderer of Christians said he had acted ignorantly. Jesus said on the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do".
I posted:
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols
“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
I posted:
What if they change their mind & decide they want salvation?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:What makes you say that they would?
You said those suffering in hell will have freewill to choose God. Why wouldn't they? Unless your "God" is force-raping them to be tormented forever.
I posted:
Why don't they just ignore that & think happy thoughts. Then their "hell" will be heaven, right?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:I was partly agreeing with you.
So now your "partly agreeing" with the possibility of universal salvation, eh?
I posted:
How does that address the question. You said in hell the wicked will be tormented by the knowledge of their rejecting God. Why don't they just ignore that & think happy thoughts. Then their "hell" will be heaven, right? Or does God force/rape them to think thoughts that will torment them forever?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:You're getting into an area of discussion that is more hypothetical than logical.]
I don't know what they'll think, let alone why. I know that the realization of reality that they are now separated from everyone and everything, including their Creator, will eventually set in.
Who is bringing that upon them, if they are willed against it & thinking happy thoughts in hell? Will your "God" overpower their positive thinking & force-rape them to think thoughts that will torment them? Who, then, is the real tormentor?
I asked:
Does He remove their freewill to choose Him.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
I asked:
Does He remove the freewill of the saints to sin,
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
I asked:
Does He remove the freewill of the saints to sin, thereby forcing them like one controls a puppet to stay in heaven forever?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:No, those who love Him will not rebel, just like God the Father willingly loves the Son and Holy Spirit, and God the Son willingly loves the Father and Holy Spirit, and God the Holy Spirit willingly loves the Father and Son.
Why couldn't the saints in heaven choose to rebel just like Lucifer & his angels in heaven chose to rebel? Is God forcing the saints to stay in heaven whether they will it or not? Does freewill only matter before death? And then after death it's God force-raping everyone?
I posted:
I wonder who is slamming that door shut, forever. The One Who cuts off communications forever in saying depart forever?
What if those in hell decide they want salvation?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:What makes you assume they would want it?
Wouldn't you want to be saved from your torments?
I asked:
So all those who never heard the gospel are going to be damned forever, even if they would have believed if they had ever heard it?
So people can die without believing in Jesus & still accept Him postmortem?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:No, that's not what Romans 2 says.
Says what? Unbelievers can be saved postmortem? Or they're damned even if they would have believed the gospel, if they had ever heard it, but they didn't hear it?
I posted:
In conclusion your views leads to either:
1. God is not omnipotent but impotent, or
2. God’s love expires like a carton of milk, or
3. God is incredibly stupid, moreso than most normal IQ human beings, or
4. God is like a rapist, or
5. Some or all of the above.
You try to dress up “endless conscious torments” (ECT) to look more respectable than the Calvinist or Double Predestination viewpoints. But when the sheepskins are removed from the wolf, a wolf is exposed as still being a wolf, no matter how you dress it up. Either way, ECT is clearly not the fault of any God created being, but of the ECT “God”.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:His love never ends, but He isn't a magician.
No, Love Omnipotent isn't a magician. He's far more powerful than that. He's a miracle worker!
These many solar systems & billions of stars don't look like the work of an impotent god or one who will lose a war of the wills with weak little human beings:
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:Neither annihilationism nor universalism are possibilities because of what Christ said in Gethsemane in His prayer to the Father.
This makes even less sense than your argument re the garden of Eden refuting universalism.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:Rejection of God is inherently harmful to those who reject Him and the people around them, and so God must separate those who will inevitably harm themselves and those around themfrom Him and those who love Him.
He doesn't do that in this life, so why would he separate those in hell from one another, & their friends there, except to cause them the suffering of loneliness? Making your "God", once again, the cause of torments. And the force-rapist you described.
Why the need to separate Himself from the harmful in hell? Is your "God" too impotent to handle it? Will those in hell harm "Him"?
In conclusion i'll reaffirm even more strongly my previous conclusions:
In conclusion your views leads to either:
1. God is not omnipotent but impotent, or
2. God’s love expires like a carton of milk, or
3. God is incredibly stupid, moreso than most normal IQ human beings, or
4. God is like a rapist, or
5. Some or all of the above.
You try to dress up “endless conscious torments” (ECT) to look more respectable than the Calvinist or Double Predestination viewpoints. But when the sheepskins are removed from the wolf, a wolf is exposed as still being a wolf, no matter how you dress it up. Either way, ECT is clearly not the fault of any God created being, but of the ECT “God”.
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