Biblical proof of Mary's virginity

redleghunter

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Actually it depends on the calendar, your information would be correct according to the Julian calendar.
:scratch:

So the Julian calendar is off by a century?

When your quoted church father has a date tag of AD 383 that actually means 3rd century in your calendar and not the 4th century AD like the West?

According to your calendar we are in the year 2018 but it is the 20th century? :scratch:
 
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BroRoyVa79

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:scratch:

So the Julian calendar is off by a century?

When your quoted church father has a date tag of AD 383 that actually means 3rd century in your calendar and not the 4th century AD like the West?

According to your calendar we are in the year 2018 but it is the 20th century? :scratch:

No, the current discrepancy between the Julian and Gregorian calenders is 13 days according to the Encyclopedia of Britannia: https://www.britannica.com/science/Julian-calendar

As I post this on 8/30/2018, according to the Julian Calender, it's 8/17/2018
 
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BroRoyVa79

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Actually it depends on the calendar, your information would be correct according to the Julian calendar.

The century categorization is correct regardless of whether it started during the time in which the Julian calender was used or not. The switch between calenders did not cause a century of discrepancies. The differences only amount to maybe half a month at most, a few days at the least in a year. Nevertheless, centuries are still recognized and categorized as 1st century: 1-100 A.D., 2nd century: 101-200 A.D., 3rd Century: 201-300 A.D., 4th Century: 301-400 A.D., and so on and so forth. Since there was no 0 year, the B.C. centuries counted down to the 1st year After Christ with 100-1 B.C. being the last century in the era of years categorized as B.C.

Thus, any church father in the years 201-300 A.D. are third century and so on and so forth regardless of the fact that we now use a Gregorian calender today.
 
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BNR32FAN

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redleghunter

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elders and the 4 throne guardians are saints, no one is claiming the saints offer their own prayers, they offer our prayers to God himself.
Revelation 4: NASB
5Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; 6and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. 7The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle. 8And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say,

These are saints? :scratch:
 
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Barney2.0

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Revelation 4: NASB
5Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; 6and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. 7The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle. 8And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say,

These are saints? :scratch:
Not according to the text, but the 24 elders do seem like Saints.
 
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Barney2.0

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:scratch:

So the Julian calendar is off by a century?

When your quoted church father has a date tag of AD 383 that actually means 3rd century in your calendar and not the 4th century AD like the West?

According to your calendar we are in the year 2018 but it is the 20th century? :scratch:
Even if the Church Fathers happen to exist in the fourth century, it doesn’t discern the fact that the belief dates back earlier. I believe most later Church Fathers based their belief of perpetual virginity on early Christian writings like the Protoevangelium of James.
 
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Barney2.0

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I’m the end we still have much more evidence pointing towards Mary having other children according to the inspired scriptures and 1 account of a 2nd century apocryphal writing supporting her perpetual virginity. So far that’s where we stand.
Nothing in scripture directly supports Mary having children or consummating her marriage. We could say that scripture is unclear on the matter, but we have an early account in early Christian writings describing her perpetual virginity from which the Church Fathers based their information on. So I think the case for her perpetual virginity is stronger.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Nothing in scripture directly supports Mary having children or consummating her marriage. We could say that scripture is unclear on the matter, but we have an early account in early Christian writings describing her perpetual virginity from which the Church Fathers based their information on. So I think the case for her perpetual virginity is stronger.

The thing is Mary’s perpetual virginity doesn’t seem to be handed down throughout the hundred years in the church. It seems to pop up based in an apocryphal writing written some time in the 2nd century because the people who support it point to this writing as their evidence. Which would make James over 100 years old when he wrote this if he had been born before Jesus which was extremely uncommon for a person to live that long during that time. I’m not saying it’s impossible but it’s very unlikely. Nothing in the scriptures prove Mary had other children but there are 3 key pieces of scripture which are strong evidence to support the idea. First piece of evidence is James is the only person mention by name to be Jesus’ brother and he is often referred to as being Jesus’ brother. There are 6 references in the Bible to Jesus’ brothers. The 2nd piece of evidence is Matthew 1:25

“and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:25‬

The 3rd piece of evidence is that Joseph and Mary were married and it was Jewish custom to consummate the marriage. Another indication is that there is no mention of Joseph’s children traveling with him & Mary before Jesus’ birth or shortly after. According to the protoevangelum of James Joseph was a widower so where are his children if his wife is dead? Like I said there’s no proof but there is a lot more evidence in the inspired scriptures against Mary’s perpetual virginity and nothing in the scriptures supporting it.
 
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Barney2.0

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The thing is Mary’s perpetual virginity doesn’t seem to be handed down throughout the hundred years in the church. It seems to pop up based in an apocryphal writing written some time in the 2nd century because the people who support it point to this writing as their evidence. Which would make James over 100 years old when he wrote this if he had been born before Jesus which was extremely uncommon for a person to live that long during that time. I’m not saying it’s impossible but it’s very unlikely. Nothing in the scriptures prove Mary had other children but there are 3 key pieces of scripture which are strong evidence to support the idea. First piece of evidence is James is the only person mention by name to be Jesus’ brother and he is often referred to as being Jesus’ brother. There are 6 references in the Bible to Jesus’ brothers. The 2nd piece of evidence is Matthew 1:25

“and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:25‬

The 3rd piece of evidence is that Joseph and Mary were married and it was Jewish custom to consummate the marriage. Another indication is that there is no mention of Joseph’s children traveling with him & Mary before Jesus’ birth or shortly after. According to the protoevangelum of James Joseph was a widower so where are his children if his wife is dead? Like I said there’s no proof but there is a lot more evidence in the inspired scriptures against Mary’s perpetual virginity and nothing in the scriptures supporting it.
Consummation is not required to have a valid marriage. The authorship of the Protoevangelium and what if teaches are two different issues. The people mentioned as Jesus’s brothers might not be the children of Joseph, but cousins or simply bothers in faith. Scripture’s statement that Joseph "knew [Mary] not until she brought forth her firstborn" would not necessarily mean they did "know" each other after she brought forth Jesus. Until is often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English. I may say to you, "Until we meet again, God bless you." Does that necessarily mean after we meet again, God curse you? By no means. A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the until is fulfilled. It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point. Here are some biblical examples:

  • 2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)
  • 1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)
  • 1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, "he will reign over the house of Jacob foreverand of his kingdom there shall be no end.")
In recent years, some have argued that because Matthew 1:25 uses the Greek words heos hou for "until" whereas the texts I mentioned above from the New Testament use heos alone, there is a difference in meaning. The argument goes that Heos hou indicates the action of the first clause does not continue. Thus, Mary and Joseph "not having come together" would have ended after Jesus was born.

The problems with this theory begin with the fact that no available scholarship concurs with it. In fact, the evidence proves the contrary. Heos hou and heos are used interchangeably and have the same meaning. Acts 25:21 should suffice to clear up the matter: "But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until (Gk. heos hou) I could send him to Caesar."

Does this text mean that Paul would not be held in custody after he was "sent" to Caesar? Not according to the biblical record. He would be held in custody while in transit (see Acts 27:1) and after he arrived in Rome for a time (see Acts 29:16). The action of the main clause did not cease with heos hou.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-case-for-marys-perpetual-virginity
 
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BroRoyVa79

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I've seen you post this a few times or something similar

Consummation is not required to have a valid marriage.

It usually happens. To the best of my recollection, nearly everywhere in the Bible that a marriage is discussed and the author wants to focus on it, consummation ends the initial phase of the marriage.

There are more examples to support the idea Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage than there are to support your view.

The authorship of the Protoevangelium and what if teaches are two different issues.

Authorship is important because it validates whether this is actually a Christian teaching, versus Gnostic teaching, versus heretical teaching. This can also be determined with the content of the early writing from early Christian culture.

Even today, some groups like the Jesus Seminar, can use Christian terms, talk about Christian beliefs, and not be Christians. Or individuals like Bart Erhman who was once a Christian, went to Christian schools, learned about ancient languages, but today writes most specifically against Christianity.

In 1,000 years if someone found the writings of the above two in the ground, or left in libraries, whatever. Identifying who wrote them, their intent, etc. as opposed to true Christianity is important.

What something teaches can determine whether the author is who the writing claims it is. If we know John, Matthew, Peter, any of the many James, Thaddeus, Philip, etc. would not have written a document claim to be written by them then we are to look at it with more scrutiny to determine if it was from a different sect claiming to be Christian while contending with the real Christian church in its infancy.

These are things that actually happened in Christian history.

The people mentioned as Jesus’s brothers might not be the children of Joseph, but cousins or simply bothers in faith. Scripture’s statement that Joseph "knew [Mary] not until she brought forth her firstborn" would not necessarily mean they did "know" each other after she brought forth Jesus. Until is often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English. I may say to you, "Until we meet again, God bless you." Does that necessarily mean after we meet again, God curse you? By no means. A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the until is fulfilled. It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point. Here are some biblical examples:

  • 2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)
  • 1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)
  • 1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, "he will reign over the house of Jacob foreverand of his kingdom there shall be no end.")
In recent years, some have argued that because Matthew 1:25 uses the Greek words heos hou for "until" whereas the texts I mentioned above from the New Testament use heos alone, there is a difference in meaning. The argument goes that Heos hou indicates the action of the first clause does not continue. Thus, Mary and Joseph "not having come together" would have ended after Jesus was born.

The problems with this theory begin with the fact that no available scholarship concurs with it. In fact, the evidence proves the contrary. Heos hou and heos are used interchangeably and have the same meaning. Acts 25:21 should suffice to clear up the matter: "But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until (Gk. heos hou) I could send him to Caesar."

Does this text mean that Paul would not be held in custody after he was "sent" to Caesar? Not according to the biblical record. He would be held in custody while in transit (see Acts 27:1) and after he arrived in Rome for a time (see Acts 29:16). The action of the main clause did not cease with heos hou.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-case-for-marys-perpetual-virginity

First, 2 Samuel 6:23 is Old Testament. Unless one is comparing the Greek Septuagint's usage of the word then bringing it up does not really prove a point. Someone may have discussed the Septuagint's usage of the word in Greek here. I can't recall, but in this particular article Tim Staples does not.

Second, the article ignores the context of these different statements in comparison with others.

Third, this claim: "The problems with this theory begin with the fact that no available scholarship concurs with it. In fact, the evidence proves the contrary."

This is demonstrably false. Not only due to centuries of Greek scholarship, but current Greek scholarship who translated more recent versions with the specific theme emphasizing the intent was to point out they did not have sexual relations until Jesus' birth.

I'm also looking at two commentaries by two New Testament scholars. Craig Blomberg and the late Richard Thomas France, the latter being an Anglican. Blomberg is a Professor at Denver Seminary and France was Principal of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford and worked for the London School of Theology in New Testament and Biblical studies. Both affirm in their writings that "until" in Matthew 1:25 most likely means Mary and Joseph continued normal marital relations which include sexual activity. In fact, France is more forceful with it than Blomberg stating:

Nothing in his [Matthew's] text suggests that he subscribed to the later idea of Mary's "perpetual virginity," and indeed "until" most naturally indicates that after Jesus was born normal marital relations began (as indeed the straightfoward sense of Jesus having "brothers and sisters" requires, 13:55-56; cr. Luke 2:7, "her firstborn son").
R.T. France, The Gospel of Matthew, 2007, pg 59.​

Blomberg concedes that "until" here does not necessarily prove this point, but strongly suggests it. His exact words:

In keeping with his "righteous" character (v.19), Joseph obeys the Lord's directives (vv. 24-25b). Verse 25a goes beyond what the angel explicitly commands but further refutes any claim that might be made then or later that Joseph himself was Jesus' biological father. The grammatical construction translated "until" strongly suggests (but does not prove) that Mary and Joseph proceeded to have normal sexual relations after Jesus' birth.
Craig Blomberg, The New American Commentary: Matthew, 1992, pg 61.​

I also found a list of scholars arguing similar things once I logged into my Alma mater's library and did searches for scholarly journals regarding perpetual virginity, Matthew 1:25, etc. Here is one quick example to show there is scholarship that concurs with this theory.

In defending the virgin birth of Jesus versus claims that it was a myth, the late Dr. David J. MacLeod, former Program Director for Biblical Studies, Bible Exposition and Theology at Emmaus Bible College, wrote:

Matthew’s Gospel does not support the later doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary. The Greek verb stresses continuous inaction on Joseph’s part during Mary’s pregnancy. The “until” clause (ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν, heōs hou eteken huion) implies that following Jesus’ birth, Joseph and Mary enjoyed normal sexual relations. That Joseph and Mary had a normal marriage after Jesus was born is further indicated by the mention of His brothers and sisters later in the Gospel (13:55–56).

David J. MacLeod, “The Virginal Conception of Our Lord in Matthew 1: 18-25,” Emmaus Journal 8, no. 1 (Summer 1999): pgs, 26-27.​

In searching for the above, I also discovered this in regard to the constant claim here that ἀδελφοὶ could be read as kinsmen or cousins. As well as the claims of Papias regarding them being Jesus' cousins. Philip Schaff, a Swiss Protestant Theologian and Church Historian wrote in 1864:

The exegetical or grammatical (though not perhaps the dogmatical) a prior presumption is undoubtedly in favor of the usual meaning of the word, the more so since no parallel case of a wider meaning of ἀδελφός (except the well known and always apparent metaphorical one, which is out of the question in our case) can be quoted from the New Testament. Even the Hebrew אָח is used only twice in a wider sense, and then only extended to nephew (not to cousin), viz. Gen. 13:8; 14:16, of Abraham and Lot, who was his brother’s son (40:27–31), and Gen. 29:12–15, of Laban and Jacob his nephew and sister’s son (comp. vs. 13). Here there can be no mistake. The cases are therefore not strictly parallel.
He goes on:

There is no mention anywhere of cousins or kinsmen of Jesus according to the flesh; and yet the term ἀνεψιός, consobrinus, cousin, is well known to the New Testament vocabulary (compare Col. 4:10, where Mark is called a cousin of Barnabas); so also the more exact term υἱὸς τῆς ἀδελφῆς, sister’s son (comp. Acts 23:26, of Paul’s cousin in Jerusalem); and the more general term συγγενής kinsman, relative, occurs not less than eleven times (Mark 6:4; Luke 1:36–58; 2:44; 14:12; 21:16; John 18:26; Acts 10:24; Rom. 9:3; 16:7, 11, 21).

Now if the brothers of Jesus were merely his cousins (either sons of a sister of Mary, as is generally assumed, or of a brother of Joseph, as Dr. Lange maintains), the question may well be asked: Why, we may rationally ask, did the sacred historians never call them by their right name, ἀνεψιοί or υἱοὶ τῆς ἀδελφῆς τῆς Μαρίας, or τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ τοῦ ᾿Λωσήφ, or at least more generally συγγενεῖς? By doing this they would have at once prevented all future confusion among commentators; while by uniformly using the term ἀδελφαί, without the least intimation of a wider meaning, they certainly suggest to every unbiased reader the impression that real brothers are intended.

Philip Schaff, “The Brethren of Christ,” Bibliotheca Sacra 21, no. 84 (Oct 1864): pgs, 858.​



 
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Erik Nelson

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The thing is Mary’s perpetual virginity doesn’t seem to be handed down throughout the hundred years in the church. It seems to pop up based in an apocryphal writing written some time in the 2nd century because the people who support it point to this writing as their evidence. Which would make James over 100 years old when he wrote this if he had been born before Jesus which was extremely uncommon for a person to live that long during that time. I’m not saying it’s impossible but it’s very unlikely. Nothing in the scriptures prove Mary had other children but there are 3 key pieces of scripture which are strong evidence to support the idea. First piece of evidence is James is the only person mention by name to be Jesus’ brother and he is often referred to as being Jesus’ brother. There are 6 references in the Bible to Jesus’ brothers. The 2nd piece of evidence is Matthew 1:25

“and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:25‬

The 3rd piece of evidence is that Joseph and Mary were married and it was Jewish custom to consummate the marriage. Another indication is that there is no mention of Joseph’s children traveling with him & Mary before Jesus’ birth or shortly after. According to the protoevangelum of James Joseph was a widower so where are his children if his wife is dead? Like I said there’s no proof but there is a lot more evidence in the inspired scriptures against Mary’s perpetual virginity and nothing in the scriptures supporting it.
Joseph didn't want to have anything to do with Mary. He only married her grudgingly when directed by the Holy Spirit. There's no indication in scripture that he was. Eager. To be her mab
 
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Erik Nelson

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Mary is not mentioned after Pentecost in Acts. Not one epistle mentions her.
According to church tradition Mary lived with John the beloved Apostle for 11 years, probably in Ephesus. All of the epistles were written after that. Most of Acts occurs after that.

Church tradition records her valuable service to the early Christian community, which would seem very obvious, hence that would help support a certain amount of value. Of early church tradition and so called apocryphal writings.
 
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prodromos

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The thing is Mary’s perpetual virginity doesn’t seem to be handed down throughout the hundred years in the church. It seems to pop up based in an apocryphal writing written some time in the 2nd century because the people who support it point to this writing as their evidence.
Every time some new idea popped up in the Church it caused a great deal of controversy. The fact that there is no controversy surrounding Mary's ever virginity is evidence that it was not a new idea when the Protoevangelio of James was written.
Which would make James over 100 years old when he wrote this if he had been born before Jesus which was extremely uncommon for a person to live that long during that time. I’m not saying it’s impossible but it’s very unlikely.
James is not considered to be the author of the Protoevangelio, but the source of the information.
Nothing in the scriptures prove Mary had other children but there are 3 key pieces of scripture which are strong evidence to support the idea. First piece of evidence is James is the only person mention by name to be Jesus’ brother and he is often referred to as being Jesus’ brother. There are 6 references in the Bible to Jesus’ brothers.
Any child of Joseph would be Jesus brother despite not having the same mother. Jacob's sons were born to 4 different women yet they are all brothers.
The 2nd piece of evidence is Matthew 1:25

“and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:25‬
I've explained why this is not the evidence it is claimed to be. BroRoyVa79's earlier analysis of the Greek actually confirmed what I've been saying despite him thinking otherwise.
3rd piece of evidence is that Joseph and Mary were married and it was Jewish custom to consummate the marriage.
Is it Jewish custom to consumate the marriage after giving birth to God? Would a righteous man think nothing of putting his seed in the same womb which had borne his Lord God, King and creator? Those things in the temple used for God's holy purposes were never again given over to common usage, and anyone who did use them for common purposes did not have a happy end.
Another indication is that there is no mention of Joseph’s children traveling with him & Mary before Jesus’ birth or shortly after. According to the protoevangelum of James Joseph was a widower so where are his children if his wife is dead?
Married with children of their own. Tradition states that Salome, the wife of Zebedee and mother of James and John is one of the daughters of Joseph. Her boldness in asking Jesus to allow her sons to sit at His left and right hand in His kingdom is consistent with her being His older sister.
Like I said there’s no proof but there is a lot more evidence in the inspired scriptures against Mary’s perpetual virginity and nothing in the scriptures supporting it.
Like I've said, I disagree.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Consummation is not required to have a valid marriage. The authorship of the Protoevangelium and what if teaches are two different issues. The people mentioned as Jesus’s brothers might not be the children of Joseph, but cousins or simply bothers in faith. Scripture’s statement that Joseph "knew [Mary] not until she brought forth her firstborn" would not necessarily mean they did "know" each other after she brought forth Jesus. Until is often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English. I may say to you, "Until we meet again, God bless you." Does that necessarily mean after we meet again, God curse you? By no means. A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the until is fulfilled. It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point. Here are some biblical examples:

  • 2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)
  • 1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)
  • 1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, "he will reign over the house of Jacob foreverand of his kingdom there shall be no end.")
In recent years, some have argued that because Matthew 1:25 uses the Greek words heos hou for "until" whereas the texts I mentioned above from the New Testament use heos alone, there is a difference in meaning. The argument goes that Heos hou indicates the action of the first clause does not continue. Thus, Mary and Joseph "not having come together" would have ended after Jesus was born.

The problems with this theory begin with the fact that no available scholarship concurs with it. In fact, the evidence proves the contrary. Heos hou and heos are used interchangeably and have the same meaning. Acts 25:21 should suffice to clear up the matter: "But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until (Gk. heos hou) I could send him to Caesar."

Does this text mean that Paul would not be held in custody after he was "sent" to Caesar? Not according to the biblical record. He would be held in custody while in transit (see Acts 27:1) and after he arrived in Rome for a time (see Acts 29:16). The action of the main clause did not cease with heos hou.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-case-for-marys-perpetual-virginity

Yes I get it I’ve already said that it is not proof it is evidence. There’s a difference. I’m aware of the Catholic defense on this evidence but their defense also doesn’t negate the fact that according to the scriptures Mary could’ve had other children. None of their defense disproves the idea. So my point still remains there is evidence in the inspired scriptures against Mary’s perpetual virginity and 0 evidence from the scriptures supporting it. When you combine the evidence against her perpetual virginity and calculate the odds of all 4 pieces of evidence all point to Mary having other children and support each other combined with the odds of James actually writing the protoevangelum gospel being over 100 years old. The odds are stacked against her perpetual virginity being true.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Joseph didn't want to have anything to do with Mary. He only married her grudgingly when directed by the Holy Spirit. There's no indication in scripture that he was. Eager. To be her mab

Joseph was bequeathed (engaged) to Mary before finding out she was pregnant so it is pretty safe to say that he did want to marry her.
 
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Barney2.0

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Yes I get it I’ve already said that it is not proof it is evidence. There’s a difference. I’m aware of the Catholic defense on this evidence but their defense also doesn’t negate the fact that according to the scriptures Mary could’ve had other children. None of their defense disproves the idea. So my point still remains there is evidence in the inspired scriptures against Mary’s perpetual virginity and 0 evidence from the scriptures supporting it. When you combine the evidence against her perpetual virginity and calculate the odds of all 4 pieces of evidence all point to Mary having other children and support each other combined with the odds of James actually writing the protoevangelum gospel being over 100 years old. The odds are stacked against her perpetual virginity being true.
Nothing in scripture is against perpetual virginity, I believe we’ve been through that. The early Christian community wrote the Protoevangelium of James detailing her perpetual virginity, and the Church Fathers based their information on the Protoevangelium of James. While the argument against perpetual virginity is solely based on assumption she had children in scripture while there is no true way of knowing from scripture whether she had children or not.
 
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Barney2.0

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I've seen you post this a few times or something similar



It usually happens. To the best of my recollection, nearly everywhere in the Bible that a marriage is discussed and the author wants to focus on it, consummation ends the initial phase of the marriage.

There are more examples to support the idea Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage than there are to support your view.



Authorship is important because it validates whether this is actually a Christian teaching, versus Gnostic teaching, versus heretical teaching. This can also be determined with the content of the early writing from early Christian culture.

Even today, some groups like the Jesus Seminar, can use Christian terms, talk about Christian beliefs, and not be Christians. Or individuals like Bart Erhman who was once a Christian, went to Christian schools, learned about ancient languages, but today writes most specifically against Christianity.

In 1,000 years if someone found the writings of the above two in the ground, or left in libraries, whatever. Identifying who wrote them, their intent, etc. as opposed to true Christianity is important.

What something teaches can determine whether the author is who the writing claims it is. If we know John, Matthew, Peter, any of the many James, Thaddeus, Philip, etc. would not have written a document claim to be written by them then we are to look at it with more scrutiny to determine if it was from a different sect claiming to be Christian while contending with the real Christian church in its infancy.

These are things that actually happened in Christian history.



First, 2 Samuel 6:23 is Old Testament. Unless one is comparing the Greek Septuagint's usage of the word then bringing it up does not really prove a point. Someone may have discussed the Septuagint's usage of the word in Greek here. I can't recall, but in this particular article Tim Staples does not.

Second, the article ignores the context of these different statements in comparison with others.

Third, this claim: "The problems with this theory begin with the fact that no available scholarship concurs with it. In fact, the evidence proves the contrary."

This is demonstrably false. Not only due to centuries of Greek scholarship, but current Greek scholarship who translated more recent versions with the specific theme emphasizing the intent was to point out they did not have sexual relations until Jesus' birth.

I'm also looking at two commentaries by two New Testament scholars. Craig Blomberg and the late Richard Thomas France, the latter being an Anglican. Blomberg is a Professor at Denver Seminary and France was Principal of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford and worked for the London School of Theology in New Testament and Biblical studies. Both affirm in their writings that "until" in Matthew 1:25 most likely means Mary and Joseph continued normal marital relations which include sexual activity. In fact, France is more forceful with it than Blomberg stating:

Nothing in his [Matthew's] text suggests that he subscribed to the later idea of Mary's "perpetual virginity," and indeed "until" most naturally indicates that after Jesus was born normal marital relations began (as indeed the straightfoward sense of Jesus having "brothers and sisters" requires, 13:55-56; cr. Luke 2:7, "her firstborn son").
R.T. France, The Gospel of Matthew, 2007, pg 59.​

Blomberg concedes that "until" here does not necessarily prove this point, but strongly suggests it. His exact words:

In keeping with his "righteous" character (v.19), Joseph obeys the Lord's directives (vv. 24-25b). Verse 25a goes beyond what the angel explicitly commands but further refutes any claim that might be made then or later that Joseph himself was Jesus' biological father. The grammatical construction translated "until" strongly suggests (but does not prove) that Mary and Joseph proceeded to have normal sexual relations after Jesus' birth.
Craig Blomberg, The New American Commentary: Matthew, 1992, pg 61.​

I also found a list of scholars arguing similar things once I logged into my Alma mater's library and did searches for scholarly journals regarding perpetual virginity, Matthew 1:25, etc. Here is one quick example to show there is scholarship that concurs with this theory.

In defending the virgin birth of Jesus versus claims that it was a myth, the late Dr. David J. MacLeod, former Program Director for Biblical Studies, Bible Exposition and Theology at Emmaus Bible College, wrote:

Matthew’s Gospel does not support the later doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary. The Greek verb stresses continuous inaction on Joseph’s part during Mary’s pregnancy. The “until” clause (ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν, heōs hou eteken huion) implies that following Jesus’ birth, Joseph and Mary enjoyed normal sexual relations. That Joseph and Mary had a normal marriage after Jesus was born is further indicated by the mention of His brothers and sisters later in the Gospel (13:55–56).

David J. MacLeod, “The Virginal Conception of Our Lord in Matthew 1: 18-25,” Emmaus Journal 8, no. 1 (Summer 1999): pgs, 26-27.​

In searching for the above, I also discovered this in regard to the constant claim here that ἀδελφοὶ could be read as kinsmen or cousins. As well as the claims of Papias regarding them being Jesus' cousins. Philip Schaff, a Swiss Protestant Theologian and Church Historian wrote in 1864:

The exegetical or grammatical (though not perhaps the dogmatical) a prior presumption is undoubtedly in favor of the usual meaning of the word, the more so since no parallel case of a wider meaning of ἀδελφός (except the well known and always apparent metaphorical one, which is out of the question in our case) can be quoted from the New Testament. Even the Hebrew אָח is used only twice in a wider sense, and then only extended to nephew (not to cousin), viz. Gen. 13:8; 14:16, of Abraham and Lot, who was his brother’s son (40:27–31), and Gen. 29:12–15, of Laban and Jacob his nephew and sister’s son (comp. vs. 13). Here there can be no mistake. The cases are therefore not strictly parallel.
He goes on:

There is no mention anywhere of cousins or kinsmen of Jesus according to the flesh; and yet the term ἀνεψιός, consobrinus, cousin, is well known to the New Testament vocabulary (compare Col. 4:10, where Mark is called a cousin of Barnabas); so also the more exact term υἱὸς τῆς ἀδελφῆς, sister’s son (comp. Acts 23:26, of Paul’s cousin in Jerusalem); and the more general term συγγενής kinsman, relative, occurs not less than eleven times (Mark 6:4; Luke 1:36–58; 2:44; 14:12; 21:16; John 18:26; Acts 10:24; Rom. 9:3; 16:7, 11, 21).

Now if the brothers of Jesus were merely his cousins (either sons of a sister of Mary, as is generally assumed, or of a brother of Joseph, as Dr. Lange maintains), the question may well be asked: Why, we may rationally ask, did the sacred historians never call them by their right name, ἀνεψιοί or υἱοὶ τῆς ἀδελφῆς τῆς Μαρίας, or τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ τοῦ ᾿Λωσήφ, or at least more generally συγγενεῖς? By doing this they would have at once prevented all future confusion among commentators; while by uniformly using the term ἀδελφαί, without the least intimation of a wider meaning, they certainly suggest to every unbiased reader the impression that real brothers are intended.

Philip Schaff, “The Brethren of Christ,” Bibliotheca Sacra 21, no. 84 (Oct 1864): pgs, 858.​



We know the a Protoevangelium isn’t a Gnostic writing because the Church Fathers based their information on it, meaning it couldn’t have been Gnostic work. Judaism also doesn’t require consummation to make the marriage valid:

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/465162/jewish/The-Jewish-Marriage-Ceremony.htm

The people described as brothers of Jesus might not even be his cousins, but brothers in faith, or brothers as in being of the same tribe. In the Old Testament Lot is called a brother to Abraham despite him being Abraham’s cousin, so it doesn’t necessarily matter if the authors or the Gospel use the word brother instead of cousin. The word until doesn’t indicate she had other children, although you will find commentary to support that viewpoint you will also undoubtedly find those in the opposite direction.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Nothing in scripture is against perpetual virginity, I be,ieve we’ve been through that. The early Christian community wrote the Protoevangelium of James detailing her perpetual virginity, and the Church Fathers based their information on the Protoevangelium of James. While the argument against perpetual virginity is solely based on assumption she had children in scripture while there is no true way of knowing from scripture whether she had children or not.

Amen so let’s not make assumptions either way.

:ok:
 
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