Will those standing before God in judgment even ask for salvation?

FatalHeart said:

I agree, He will do everything that is appropriate to save, but it's important not to give people false hopes in something that the Bible doesn't explicitly say just because you you want God to be merciful in that way. If it really is intended a one stop try for one time in life and hell is eternal, it's not a good thing to teach otherwise, but a gamble on those you council's eternity.

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I am not saying you are wrong and in no way I am in a position to teach but imo i just can't believe that God and His Son would let a person die. There are many testimonies of atheist nde who now believe and even become pastors etc for example but againthat's just my opinion not a fact my friend.

Kostas said:

I am not saying you are wrong and in no way I am in a position to teach but imo i just can't believe that God and His Son would let a person die. There are many testimonies of atheist nde who now believe and even become pastors etc for example but againthat's just my opinion not a fact my friend.

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Those atheists did not do that without the Holy Spirit. Nobody standing at the brink of the Lake of Fire in Rev 20 - among the wicked - has the Holy Spirit to motivate them to do good -- all they have is the devil (their chosen leader) and their own sinful nature. In Romans 3 Paul says that such a combination results in zero "desire to do good".

So then all the wicked "wish for no punishment" -- without question.

But not a single one of them would repent. Lament? yes. Repent... no.

brinny said:

This verse comes to mind:

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man," ~Gen 6:3

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Many ancient translations do not say "contend with", but "abide in" or "dwell in":

"R.V. marg. rule in. Better, according to many ancient versions, abide in..."

"...Shall not dwell (LXX., οὐ μὴ καταμείνη; Vulgate, non permanebit; Syriac, Onkelos)."

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

"Genesis 6:3 compare perhaps continue, do something continually, in modern Egyptian Arabic (SoSK lxvii {1894}, 211 f.). (1) ᵐ5 ᵑ9 ᵑ6 Onk read ידיר or (Kue) ילון abide in, dwell, — My spirit will not abide in man for ever; this best suits the context, but ידור, as Aramaism, is dubious (2) Kn De Schr RVm render rule in, supported by Zechariah 3:7 only. (3) Thes Ew Di render be humbled in, sustained by Arabic usage, but not by Hebrew (4) strive with of AV RV (compare 6 above) is hardly justified."

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged, Electronic Database.

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JPS Tanakh 1917
And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'

Douay-Rheims Bible
And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah saith, 'My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they are flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.

Concordant Literal Version
And saying is Yahweh Elohim, "Not abide shall My spirit in the human for the eon, in that moreover, he is flesh. And come shall his days to be a hundred and twenty years.

Rotherham Emphasized Bible
And Yahweh said—My spirit shall not rule in man to times age—abiding, for that, he also, is flesh,—Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

NET Bible
So the LORD said, "My spirit will not remain in humankind indefinitely, since they are mortal. They will remain for 120 more years."

ISV
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not remain with human beings forever, because they are truly mortal, and their lifespan will be 120 years.

English Standard Version
Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”

John Wycliffe's Translation
And God seide, My spirit schal not dwelle in man with outen ende, for he is fleisch; and the daies of hym schulen be an hundrid and twenti yeer.

Brenton English Septuagint Translation
And the Lord God said, My Spirit shall certainly not remain among these men for ever, because they are flesh, but their days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Charles Thompson Translation (of the LXX)
then the Lord God said, "My breath must not continue in these men to this age, because they are flesh; their days however, shall be an hundred and twenty years

Complete Apostle's Bible (of the LXX)
And the Lord God said, My Spirit shall certainly not remain among these men forever, because they are flesh, but their days shall be one hundred and twenty years.

"R.V. marg. rule in. Better, according to many ancient versions, abide in..."

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Gen.12:3)

brinny said:

It refers to God's Holy Spirit "striving" with man.

There will come a finality of when God's Holy Spirit "ceases" striving with man, such as when man, even as disaster escalates, continues to spew curses at God till their dying breath. They will never desire nor seek repentance, nor God's mercy and grace, and instead, as it were, spit in God's face, even as they are dying.

How tragic is that?

There is a REASON that we were warned that "TODAY" is the day of salvation.

It IS urgent.

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This passage, 2 Cor.6:1-2, makes no mention of God's love expiring, like the date on a milk carton, when this life ends.

[If that were so, where are all the babies & children who died without believing in Christ. Are they the ones who gain salvation by luck, hence the lucky lottery winners, & without a choice of their own free will are irresistibly forced into heaven?]

The word "the" does not appear in the Greek here:

http://studybible.info/ACVI/2 Corinthians 6

Young's Literal Translation
for He saith, 'In an acceptable time I did hear thee, and in ***A*** day of salvation I did help thee, lo, now is a well-accepted time; lo, now, ***A*** day of salvation,' -- (2 Cor 6:2)

For He is saying, "In a season acceptable I reply to you, And in a day of salvation I help you.Lo! Now is a most acceptable era! Lo! Now is a day of salvation!" (CLV)

For he saith—In an approved season, have I hearkened unto thee, and, in a day of salvation, have succoured thee;—Lo! now, a well-approved season, Lo! now, a day of salvation: (Rotherham)

If it is "a" day of salvation that doesn't equate to "the only" day of salvation.

If today is "a" day of salvation, tomorrow may be another day.

To the Lord a day is as a thousand years (2 Pet.3:8).

Now is "a" day of salvation. The present moment is always "now", whether today or in a 1000 years after Paul wrote that or in 3000, 5000 or 10,000 years after he wrote it.

ClementofA said:

This passage, 2 Cor.6:1-2, makes no mention of God's love expiring, like the date on a milk carton, when this life ends.

[If that were so, where are all the babies & children who died without believing in Christ. Are they the ones who gain salvation by luck, hence the lucky lottery winners, & without a choice of their own free will are irresistibly forced into heaven?]

The word "the" does not appear in the Greek here:

http://studybible.info/ACVI/2 Corinthians 6

Young's Literal Translation
for He saith, 'In an acceptable time I did hear thee, and in ***A*** day of salvation I did help thee, lo, now is a well-accepted time; lo, now, ***A*** day of salvation,' -- (2 Cor 6:2)

For He is saying, "In a season acceptable I reply to you, And in a day of salvation I help you.Lo! Now is a most acceptable era! Lo! Now is a day of salvation!" (CLV)

For he saith—In an approved season, have I hearkened unto thee, and, in a day of salvation, have succoured thee;—Lo! now, a well-approved season, Lo! now, a day of salvation: (Rotherham)

If it is "a" day of salvation that doesn't equate to "the only" day of salvation.

If today is "a" day of salvation, tomorrow may be another day.

To the Lord a day is as a thousand years (2 Pet.3:8).

Now is "a" day of salvation. The present moment is always "now", whether today or in a 1000 years after Paul wrote that or in 3000, 5000 or 10,000 years after he wrote it.

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i agree with the "now" is the day of salvation emphasis -
i agree that Gods love is amazing. i do find that the gospel IS the power to save if it is believed and thus applied . i do find that ignoring the gospel and putting off obeying it is the single most foolish thing anyone can ever do . Because NOW is the day of salvation , now being the moment you heard the entire gospel message . once that message is delivered to a person they become fully responsible for responding to it in obedience or continuing in disobedience .

but the thought that Gods love doe or does not expire towards the world is really a non topic . john 3 16 is often misread through non contextual over use - it says .. for God ) or just so ,GOD... lOVED the world and gave is son..
it does not say for god so LOVES the world but that in that moment he loved ,he displayed love towards our hopelessness . he did not owe it to us to do so and he is going to destroy the world by fire .he does not love sinners he does not love sin he does not love murderers and rapists and child abusers or adulterers or fornicators or the fearful .he is going to destroy them by fire -not something done to ones he loves . so if a person rejects the love he once displayed to save us -they will certainly get all they were already getting

Alithis said:

i agree with the "now" is the day of salvation emphasis -
i agree that Gods love is amazing. i do find that the gospel IS the power to save if it is believed and thus applied . i do find that ignoring the gospel and putting off obeying it is the single most foolish thing anyone can ever do . Because NOW is the day of salvation , now being the moment you heard the entire gospel message . once that message is delivered to a person they become fully responsible for responding to it in obedience or continuing in disobedience .

but the thought that Gods love doe or does not expire towards the world is really a non topic . john 3 16 is often misread through non contextual over use - it says .. for God ) or just so ,GOD... lOVED the world and gave is son..
it does not say for god so LOVES the world but that in that moment he loved ,he displayed love towards our hopelessness . he did not owe it to us to do so and he is going to destroy the world by fire .he does not love sinners he does not love sin he does not love murderers and rapists and child abusers or adulterers or fornicators or the fearful .he is going to destroy them by fire -not something done to ones he loves . so if a person rejects the love he once displayed to save us -they will certainly get all they were already getting

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People who have rejected God's charity to the point they will never accept God's charity, which only God would know when that happens, would take on a lessor objective of helping those still able to make the free will choice to accept God charity in the form of forgiveness.
God can still feel sorrow and Love for those who will not repent (the same as the father of the prodigal son would still be Loved by his father even if he did not return) and God would not send them (allow them to go) to hell for their sake, but they will go to hell for the sake of those still able to make the choice to accept God's charity (God Loves all of them).
It is hard to for mature adults to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure sacrificial charity, so hell is added as an incentive to act quickly.

drjean said:

I believe it will be too late for faith. I base this upon God's Word, one passage being:

Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

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There's no "too late" & "never will know you" there. If Jesus wanted to say it was "too late for you forever, no more chances to be saved" he would have said "I WILL never know you", not "I never knew you". Did He forget to mention to them (and us) they would be doomed forever?

Did He say they had blasphemed the Holy Spirit?

drjean said:

In fact, I believe that everyone's name is written in the Book of Life when they are born. It takes rejection of Christ to have it removed. (There's Scripture for this too).

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What Scripture?

JoeP222w said:

Correct, and that is not what is presented in the Bible.

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Turn or burn. Forever.

Love Me or be tortured without end.

"God loves you so much...that He created hell just in case you don't love Him back"

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:

The argument assumes that God loves those who are in Hell. He does not.

Jeremiah 17:5 - For thus says the LORD: "Do not enter the house of mourning, nor go to lament or bemoan them; for I have taken away My peace from this people," says the Lord, "even lovingkindness and mercies."

There comes a point when God removes His grace and love from a person. When He has sent a reprobate to Hell to suffer the punishments of eternal suffering in fiery torment forever, that tells me that God don't love you anymore.

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Why should we assume that everyone who dies as an unbeliever has reached that "point" when "God removes His grace and love from a person"?

Why assume that the removal of "even lovingkindness and mercies" means God doesn't love a person? Can punishment not be loving & corrective?

ClementofA said:

Turn or burn. Forever.

Love Me or be tortured without end.

"God loves you so much...that He created hell just in case you don't love Him back"

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"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

I'm absolutely certain God doesn't care what people think of Him, nor does His righteousness change based upon favorable opinion.

Sam81 said:

Whether or not God loves the one who stands damned before Him has no bearing on what is taking place, seeing as how once a person reaches a point of no return, from then on it is actually God who hardens their hearts.

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Why would God create people with an ability to reach "a point of no return" from which even the Omnipotent One is helpless & impotent to save?

If they've reached "a point of no return", why would He need to "harden their hearts"?

bling said:

People who have rejected God's charity to the point they will never accept God's charity, which only God would know when that happens, would take on a lessor objective of helping those still able to make the free will choice to accept God charity in the form of forgiveness.
God can still feel sorrow and Love for those who will not repent (the same as the father of the prodigal son would still be Loved by his father even if he did not return) and God would not send them (allow them to go) to hell for their sake, but they will go to hell for the sake of those still able to make the choice to accept God's charity (God Loves all of them).
It is hard to for mature adults to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure sacrificial charity, so hell is added as an incentive to act quickly.

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not quite sure what your saying here -but i Do note the father accepted back the prodigal with great joy .. but the prodigal had to humble himself and return . had he not -he perishes

FatalHeart said:

I'm absolutely certain God doesn't care what people think of Him,

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Really? "God doesn't care"?

Jason0047 said:

One does not have faith after they are dead. There is no chance of repentance after a person dies and stays dead. For it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this, the judgement.

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That is a doctrine based on the traditions of men, not Scripture. See:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-there-salvation-after-death.8041377/page-7#post-72135392

ClementofA said:

That is a doctrine based on the traditions of men, not Scripture. See:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-there-salvation-after-death.8041377/page-7#post-72135392

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No thanks, the Scripture I provided says otherwise;
And I am not interested in looking at something I know is obviously not true.

The Bible is clear that when you die, there are no second chances. For it is written...

27 "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
(Luke 16:27-31).

24 "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented." (Luke 16:24-25).

iwbswiaihl said:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, could not be any clearer except to those who have eyes that do not see, or ears that do not hear. Jer 5:21 ‘Hear this now, O foolish people, Without understanding, Who have eyes and see not, And who have ears and hear not:

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The reference to Hebrews 9:27 does not speak of "an expiration date" for salvation or God's love. After death comes judgement for all, sinners & saints. Judgement can be a good thing:

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Greek word for "chastening" here can mean correction:

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

Heb.9:27 says it is appointed to men once to die. Does that deny men can die twice? No. Does it say "only" once? No. If New England is appointed to play the Buffalo Bills twice, does that deny they won't meet again in the playoffs? No. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?

I think, in light of the Rapture theory, many Christians would disagree with the statement that 100% of mankind will die and face judgment. Not only that, but Hebrews 9:27 does not say men are "only" going to die once. Lazarus, for one, is a Biblical example of one who died twice & the book of Revelation speaks of the "second death"."

I already provided examples proving Heb.9:27 does not mean death occurs "once & only once". If it did there would be a Bible contradiction & the Bible would be lying.

Paul says "once was i stoned" (2 Cor.11:25). Does that mean he could never be stoned again or stoned twice? Obviously not.

Scripture reveals there are those who will not die even once & implies there are those who will die at least a second time.
There are those who will never die, not even once:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says: “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the
coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

iwbswiaihl said:

It says what it says, and all of the conjectures will not change its meaning. V28 shows the context of v27 and example, Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. No hope for repentance after death.

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We can agree that "it says what it says". But your words do not equate to the "meaning" of the verse, nor have you provided any reason why it should be understood according to - your - opinion - that it establishes a doctrine of "no hope for repentance after death".

Let's be clear. The passage nowhere uses your words "no hope", "hope" or "repentance".

The passage does not rule out repentance "after...judgement".

Neither does it rule out the possibility of repentance after death & before judgement.

It simply doesn't address such issues.

Alithis said:

not quite sure what your saying here -but i Do note the father accepted back the prodigal with great joy .. but the prodigal had to humble himself and return . had he not -he perishes

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This is all true, but "had he not" returned would not mean the father did not still love him.

ClementofA said:

Really? "God doesn't care"?

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Is God a game that we must make Him sound politically correct and pleasing to the ears? "If I was still trying to please people I would no longer be a servant of Christ."

If He doesn't answer a prayer specifically your way does that make Him malicious? No. But it obviously means that isn't important to Him to make your request that way. Jesus didn't care what the Pharisees labeled him as. When he overturned the tables, do you think God was thinking: "I really am going to have to answer for how this makes me look." Or how about the ones He created full knowing He'd condemn them, or Satan, who He made the Lake of Fire specifically for? "Who are you to talk back to God?"

No. God doesn't care about certain things. "God is love." Yes. And that's why it isn't in Him to play to the egocentricity of mankind or the sentiments of a demonic culture. I think the word Jesus used for those that rejected him was "everlasting contempt." His judgement is righteous and without partiality. Our feelings are second on the list when it comes to Him. We are not the Holy One. We are not the Savior of the world, the Lord of lords or the bright and morning star. Job had to learn that even after all the obedience he had gone through. Even Jesus had to experience that in the garden and he was the bright and morning star.

I get what you're implying, but I hate where people go with it. God does not exist to please man. Man exists to please God.

John 12:32

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

All people?

ClementofA said:

John 12:32

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

All people?

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"Their voice has gone into all the world."

There are plenty verses that support the conviction of the whole world. What of it?