Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

Dan the deacon · Aug 29, 2018

Dave L said:
Yes. But it took years to sort through the tangles.

Do you have biblical proof? I hold to the amill view but have no absolute proof.

Dave L · Aug 29, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
Do you have biblical proof? I hold to the a mill view but have no absolute proof.

I'm Amillennial but reject the church being a visible institution. It is the spiritual body of Christ that remains invisible until two or more meet in Christ's name. And then we return to invisibility.

I have several ways to prove this position. Earlier I posted a thread called "Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their Problems" which even pointed out problems in Amillennialism.
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...llennial-theories-and-their-problems.8071615/

Dan the deacon · Aug 29, 2018

Dave L said:
I'm Amillennial but reject the church being a visible institution. It is the spiritual body of Christ that remains invisible until two or more meet in Christ's name. And then we return to invisibility.

I have several ways to prove this position. Earlier I posted a thread called "Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their Problems" which even pointed out problems in Amillennialism.
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...llennial-theories-and-their-problems.8071615/

I disagree with your view that amill see it as phyisical. I am amill and see it as spiritual.

Dan the deacon · Aug 29, 2018

Copperhead said:
Some seem to forget that for 1000 years, the corporate "Church" was not really under the authority of scripture. That is why it was called the "dark ages".

Just where do you come up with this 1000 year idea? We had the bible long before that.
Try the year 367AD.

Dave L · Aug 29, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
I disagree with your view that amill see it as phyisical. I am amill and see it as spiritual.

Traditionally the Lutherans, Reformed and Catholic are Amillennial and see themselves as the visible institutional Church.

Dan the deacon · Aug 29, 2018

Dave L said:
Traditionally the Lutherans, Reformed and Catholic are Amillennial and see themselves as the visible institutional Church.

Well being Eastern Orthodox I guess I don't fit that mold.

Dan the deacon · Aug 29, 2018

Copperhead said:
Some seem to forget that for 1000 years, the corporate "Church" was not really under the authority of scripture. That is why it was called the "dark ages".

Really? Just when do you suppose the dark ages were?

BABerean2 · Aug 29, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
I hold to the amill view but have no absolute proof.

Based on 2 Timothy 4:1, Christ judges both the living and the dead at His return.

The "time of the judgment of the dead", with reward for some and destruction for others is found in Revelation 11:18.
Therefore, the judgment in Revelation chapter 20 must be another vision of the same event.

Christ returns "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

Based on the judgment of the sheep and goats from Matthew 25:31-46, there will be no mortals left on the planet after that event.

.

mkgal1 · Aug 29, 2018

Dave L said:
Let's look at it this way for a refreshing change. The New Covenant began officially at Calvary. Peter, already in the New Covenant, wrote about a future explosion of the universe and the emergence of a new heavens and earth. Why would he predict another New Covenant in place of the literal demise of the universe, if your allegorical method is true?

The entering in of the "New heavens and new earth" -I believe- came in with several events.....not just one. When Peter wrote his words, there was still an event pending -the total destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

------->Peter had previously written (I Peter 4:7), "But the end of all things is at hand.” Naturally he was not talking about the end of our present heavens and earth, for if he were, he was mistaken, for that has not happened and nineteen hundred years have gone by. He meant an end was at hand to the old heavens and earth of Judaism under the judgment of God - the end of the world (Jewish age) which Jesus has predicted would happen in that generation (Matt. 24:34). This occurred just a few years later after Peter had written it. So here he now reminds his readers not only of the words of the holy prophets, but also of "the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour" (vs. 2). The apostles had referred to the same things as spoken by the holy prophets in the Old Testament. ~ http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm

jgr · Aug 29, 2018

Copperhead said:
Some seem to forget that for 1000 years, the corporate "Church" was not really under the authority of scripture. That is why it was called the "dark ages".

The "corporate" church ceased to be the true Church as it descended into apostasy.

God preserved His true Church, who did not bow to the apostate Baal, as He always has and will.

He then used the Reformation to light the candle dispelling the dark ages.

Dave L · Aug 29, 2018

mkgal1 said:
The entering in of the "New heavens and new earth" -I believe- came in with several events.....not just one. When Peter wrote his words, there was still an event pending -the total destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

------->Peter had previously written (I Peter 4:7), "But the end of all things is at hand.” Naturally he was not talking about the end of our present heavens and earth, for if he were, he was mistaken, for that has not happened and nineteen hundred years have gone by. He meant an end was at hand to the old heavens and earth of Judaism under the judgment of God - the end of the world (Jewish age) which Jesus has predicted would happen in that generation (Matt. 24:34). This occurred just a few years later after Peter had written it. So here he now reminds his readers not only of the words of the holy prophets, but also of "the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour" (vs. 2). The apostles had referred to the same things as spoken by the holy prophets in the Old Testament. ~ http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm

The New Covenant already came into being before Peter forecast the end of the world. They are not the same events.

Dave L · Aug 29, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
Well being Eastern Orthodox I guess I don't fit that mold.

Faith comes by hearing the word. So I encourage you to know what the word says. Many people believe with the head. But when you hit the truth, you'll know, and will believe with the heart.

mkgal1 · Aug 29, 2018

Dave L said:
The New Covenant already came into being before Peter forecast the end of the world. They are not the same events.

What was the world like at the time of Peter's writing?

From Wiki -
"The author of these epistles writes of his addressees undergoing “various trials” (1 Peter 1:6), being “tested by fire” (1:7), maligned “as evildoers” (2:12) and suffering “for doing good” (3:17)"

...so the "New Heaven/New Earth" (which is the umbrella that the New Covenant is under - IOW....it's only a part of the "New Heaven/New Earth" ) had not been entirely fulfilled at that time...as I'm understanding (not until the destruction of Jerusalem/The temple). The destruction of Jerusalem/the temple has major significance.....that's what marked the "end of the world". It was the end of the Jewish temple world.....not the end of our soil....our universe.

That's how Kingdom theology.....or "already not yet" theology works - there's a gradual progression in change. It's believed God's kingdom has been "inaugurated" but not yet "consummated".

Article on "Kingdom theology" (if interested) ~ https://www.samstorms.com/all-articles/post/the-kingdom-of-god:-already-but-not-yet---part-i

From that article linked above:

N.B. - In his response to John's disciples, Jesus was claiming that the fulfillment of the OT hope with its attendant blessings was in fact present in his person and ministry. The fulfillment, however, was not taking place along expected lines, hence John’s perplexity. The unexpected element was that fulfillment was taking place in Jesus, but without the eschatological consummation. The OT prophetic hope of the coming Messianic kingdom of God as promised to Israel is being fulfilled in the person and ministry of Jesus, but not consummated. The Jews of our Lord’s day, in keeping with what they saw in the OT, expected the consummation of the kingdom, the complete and final overthrow of Israel’s political enemies and the ushering in of the age of blessed peace and prosperity in the land. Our Lord, however, came with the message that before the kingdom would come in its eschatological consummation it has come in his own person and work in spirit and power. The kingdom, therefore, is both the present spiritual reign of God and the future realm over which He will rule in power and glory.

BABerean2 · Aug 29, 2018

mkgal1 said:
What was the world like at the time of Peter's writing?

From Wiki -
"The author of these epistles writes of his addressees undergoing “various trials” (1 Peter 1:6), being “tested by fire” (1:7), maligned “as evildoers” (2:12) and suffering “for doing good” (3:17)"

...so the "New Heaven/New Earth" (which is the umbrella that the New Covenant is under - IOW....it's only a part of the "New Heaven/New Earth" ) had not been entirely fulfilled at that time...as I'm understanding (not until the destruction of Jerusalem/The temple). The destruction of Jerusalem/the temple has major significance.....that's what marked the "end of the world". It was the end of the Jewish temple world.....not the end of our soil....our universe.

That's how Kingdom theology.....or "already not yet" theology works - there's a gradual progression in change. It's believed God's kingdom has been "inaugurated" but not yet "consummated".

Article on "Kingdom theology" (if interested) ~ https://www.samstorms.com/all-articles/post/the-kingdom-of-god:-already-but-not-yet---part-i

From that article linked above:

N.B. - In his response to John's disciples, Jesus was claiming that the fulfillment of the OT hope with its attendant blessings was in fact present in his person and ministry. The fulfillment, however, was not taking place along expected lines, hence John’s perplexity. The unexpected element was that fulfillment was taking place in Jesus, but without the eschatological consummation. The OT prophetic hope of the coming Messianic kingdom of God as promised to Israel is being fulfilled in the person and ministry of Jesus, but not consummated. The Jews of our Lord’s day, in keeping with what they saw in the OT, expected the consummation of the kingdom, the complete and final overthrow of Israel’s political enemies and the ushering in of the age of blessed peace and prosperity in the land. Our Lord, however, came with the message that before the kingdom would come in its eschatological consummation it has come in his own person and work in spirit and power. The kingdom, therefore, is both the present spiritual reign of God and the future realm over which He will rule in power and glory.

You are headed toward Full-Preterism, if you are not already there.

Do you believe we are now living in the New Heavens and the New Earth?

.

Dave L · Aug 29, 2018

mkgal1 said:
What was the world like at the time of Peter's writing?

From Wiki -
"The author of these epistles writes of his addressees undergoing “various trials” (1 Peter 1:6), being “tested by fire” (1:7), maligned “as evildoers” (2:12) and suffering “for doing good” (3:17)"

...so the "New Heaven/New Earth" (which is the umbrella that the New Covenant is under - IOW....it's only a part of the "New Heaven/New Earth" ) had not been entirely fulfilled at that time...as I'm understanding (not until the destruction of Jerusalem/The temple). The destruction of Jerusalem/the temple has major significance.....that's what marked the "end of the world". It was the end of the Jewish temple world.....not the end of our soil....our universe.

That's how Kingdom theology.....or "already not yet" theology works - there's a gradual progression in change. It's believed God's kingdom has been "inaugurated" but not yet "consummated".

Article on "Kingdom theology" (if interested) ~ https://www.samstorms.com/all-articles/post/the-kingdom-of-god:-already-but-not-yet---part-i

From that article linked above:

N.B. - In his response to John's disciples, Jesus was claiming that the fulfillment of the OT hope with its attendant blessings was in fact present in his person and ministry. The fulfillment, however, was not taking place along expected lines, hence John’s perplexity. The unexpected element was that fulfillment was taking place in Jesus, but without the eschatological consummation. The OT prophetic hope of the coming Messianic kingdom of God as promised to Israel is being fulfilled in the person and ministry of Jesus, but not consummated. The Jews of our Lord’s day, in keeping with what they saw in the OT, expected the consummation of the kingdom, the complete and final overthrow of Israel’s political enemies and the ushering in of the age of blessed peace and prosperity in the land. Our Lord, however, came with the message that before the kingdom would come in its eschatological consummation it has come in his own person and work in spirit and power. The kingdom, therefore, is both the present spiritual reign of God and the future realm over which He will rule in power and glory.

It still remains, The New Covenant had already replaced the Old at the time of Peter's writing. So what he spoke of regarding the explosion of the universe and the emergence of the New Heavens and Earth only make sense if literal.

mkgal1 · Aug 29, 2018

BABerean2 said:
You are headed toward Full-Preterism, if you are not already there.

Do you believe we are now living in the New Heavens and the New Earth?

.

Nope......there's I line where I won't go past (so there's no need for concern about full-preterism).

His kingdom has not been consummated yet....but it has been (in my belief) inaugurated .....just as was prophesied.

Yes...I DO believe we are living in the New Heavens and New Earth. Hasn't the [old covenant] law passed away?

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Luke 24:44 ~ Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.”

mkgal1 · Aug 29, 2018

Dave L said:
It still remains, The New Covenant had already replaced the Old at the time of Peter's writing. So what he spoke of regarding the explosion of the universe and the emergence of the New Heavens and Earth only make sense if literal.

What still remains?

What Peter wrote of....was the end of the Jewish/temple age (Hebrew idiom = "heaven and earth") - and we know that doesn't still remain.

Quoting Ray Vander Laan ~ Jewish people of Jesus' day had a passionate desire for freedom from the domination of the pagan Romans and the oppressive Herod dynasty that had ruled them for many years. Revolt seethed continuously, mostly underground, for more than 100 years from the time Herod became king (37 BC) until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple (AD 70).It is helpful to realize that this underlying struggle is the backdrop for Jesus' ministry, and why so many hoped he would be a conquering king. This helps us understand why the adulation of the crowds during the triumphal entry reduced Jesus to tears, and probably why many rejected his message.

THE RISING STORM Ever since the Romans arrived on the scene in 64 BC, the Jewish people were divided over how to respond to the rule of their often corrupt governors or the Herod family who served them. The religious community, particularly the Pharisees, believed the Jewish people were to be God's instruments on earth, from whom the Messiah would come to institute that glorious age when Israel would be a great and free nation. Many others, especially the secular community and apparently some of the Sadducees, noted the present reality of the rule of Rome and determined that cooperation was the best policy. The tyrannical rule of Rome and the paganism of its religious and Hellenistic culture heightened the contrast between the situation at hand and the messianic hopes. This difference produced increasing fragmentation of the people, and several movements developed in response.

The Zealots, an ultra-nationalistic group, proclaimed revolution to be God's solution (Acts 5:37). The Essenes withdrew, waiting anxiously for the Messiah to lead a violent overthrow of the Romans and their Jewish supporters. The Sadducees apparently practiced a form of cooperation since it was Rome who kept them securely in their position over the Temple and therefore over the people (John 11:49-50). The Herodions appeared satisfied with the Herod dynasty (Matt. 22:16). The Pharisees, condemning Rome's pagan excesses, were removed from politics and viewed the foreign oppressors as God's hand punishing his people for their unfaithfulness to the Torah. The country was in turmoil, each faction longing in a different way for the freedom they desired. To this climate of confusion, hatred, and division, many so-called messiahs came, each preaching his own brand of salvation (Acts 21:38). Jesus presented his unique message of redemption. Some followed his lead, but many did not. During feast days, especially Passover, tensions reached fever pitch and the Romans increased their military presence to prevent open revolt. The climate existed, however, for revolution to begin. ~ https://www.thattheworldmayknow.com/the-jewish-revolts

BABerean2 · Aug 29, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Yes...I DO believe we are living in the New Heavens and New Earth. Hasn't the [old covenant] law passed away?

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The focus of Matthew 5:18 is the word "until", based on the words of Paul in Galatians 3:16-29.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Paul used that same word to reveal the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant.
Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed could come to whom the promise was made.

The Old Covenant was fulfilled and became "obsolete" when the temple veil was ripped in half on the day Christ fulfilled the New Covenant in His blood at Calvary.

He has built us a New House out of two pieces of wood and a handful of nails.
Once a new house is completed, the contract to build that house becomes "obsolete".

Did the New Jerusalem that Paul spoke about in Galatians 4:26 come down to earth and nobody noticed the difference?

.

mkgal1 · Aug 29, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Paul used that same word to reveal the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant.
Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed could come to whom the promise was made.

I agree. I'm grateful you made the distinction between the Abrahamic covenant and the Sinai Covenant...otherwise "old covenant" can be confused. This clarifies that.

BABerean2 said:
The Old Covenant was fulfilled and became "obsolete" when the temple veil was ripped in half on the day Christ fulfilled the New Covenant in His blood at Calvary.

I'm still with you. The *Sinai Covenant* was obsolete (for me it's difficult to put a pin exactly where it became obsolete....because it also makes sense to me that it was obsolete once Jesus was born.....or when He was anointed at His baptism......or even when He read from the Law and rolled up the scroll saying, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing" - recorded in Luke 4:21).

But the old "heaven and earth" hadn't passed away. The Jewish religious leaders were still in power. Their judgement hadn't occurred as of that time.

BABerean2 said:
He has built us a New House out of two pieces of wood and a handful of nails.
Once a new house is completed, the contract to build that house becomes "obsolete".

Here you lost me.

BABerean2 said:
Did the New Jerusalem that Paul spoke about in Galatians 4:26 come down to earth and nobody noticed the difference?

Yes.....in Christ came the New Jerusalem (when the temple was destroyed -that was the end of the "old Jerusalem").

It's not to be taken literally (in my belief). There's significance to the term "coming of the Son of Man".

http://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/farewell-to-the-rapture/

mkgal1 · Aug 29, 2018

Take a look at Isaiah 65:

Isaiah 65:13-17 (NKJV) Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, My servants shall eat, But you shall be hungry; Behold, My servants shall drink, But you shall be thirsty; Behold, My servants shall rejoice, But you shall be ashamed; 14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, But you shall cry for sorrow of heart, And wail for grief of spirit. 15 You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; For the Lord GOD will slay you, And call His servants by another name; 16 So that he who blesses himself in the earth Shall bless himself in the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth Shall swear by the God of truth; Because the former troubles are forgotten, And because they are hidden from My eyes. 17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

If the new heavens and a new earth is future, then who will God be slaying? Isn't this written to the Israelites/Ancient Hebrews? If not.....who is being addressed when it's written "For the Lord God will slay you"?

ETA: From David Curtis ~
Daniel 2:44 (NKJV) "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

The people that God was going to destroy could not be the church, it had to be Israel. That would make sense, wouldn't it? The law, the Old Covenant, would pass away along with physical Israel and the heaven and earth, because physical Israel was heaven and earth!

Luke 21:20-24 (NKJV) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke tells us here that ALL things which are written will be fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. What does he mean by that? "All things which are written," refers to the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was to be fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem which was heaven and earth passing away. Daniel tells us this very same thing in:

Daniel 9:24 (NKJV) "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy."

Daniel was told that 70 weeks had been determined on his people Israel, and city Jerusalem. By the end of this prophetic time period, God promised that six things would be accomplished. One of the things that Daniel was told would happen by the end of that period was that God would "seal up vision and prophecy". The Hebrew commentaries are in agreement on the meaning of to "seal up vision and prophecy" -- they say it means the end and complete fulfillment of all prophecy.

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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