Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

mkgal1 · Aug 26, 2018

Dave L said:
The Old Covenant doesn't pass away in a fervent heat. Where the elements melt. It's already gone. Peter speaks of the New Heavens and earth.

Yes....the OC is gone.....but I believe that's what the "elements" are referring to - the practices of the OC.

The term "elements" (stoicheion) is referring to principles or rudiments under the OC law. It is used seven times in the New Testament and each time it is used it refers to those principles of the OC law:

http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=elements

Quoting Linked article ~
Peter tells his readers that he wants them to remember and be mindful of the words of the prophets. Do you know of any words of the prophets in the Old Testament regarding the passing away of heavens and earth IN A LITERAL SENSE? We have noted some instances in the Old Testament about the dissolving of the heavens (same word as used here in verse 13), and as we discuss this passage we shall notice some other places as well. But none of the places refer to a literal passing away of heaven and earth. And yet Peter is wanting to remind his readers of the words of the holy prophets. Keep this in mind.

Keep in mind also that Peter had previously written (I Peter 4:7), "But the end of all things is at hand.” Naturally he was not talking about the end of our present heavens and earth, for if he were, he was mistaken, for that has not happened and nineteen hundred years have gone by. He meant an end was at hand to the old heavens and earth of Judaism under the judgment of God - the end of the world (Jewish age) which Jesus has predicted would happen in that generation (Matt. 24:34). This occurred just a few years later after Peter had written it. So here he now reminds his readers not only of the words of the holy prophets, but also of "the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour" (vs. 2). The apostles had referred to the same things as spoken by the holy prophets in the Old Testament. ~ http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm

Dave L · Aug 27, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Yes....the OC is gone.....but I believe that's what the "elements" are referring to - the practices of the OC.

The term "elements" (stoicheion) is referring to principles or rudiments under the OC law. It is used seven times in the New Testament and each time it is used it refers to those principles of the OC law:

http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=elements

Quoting Linked article ~
Peter tells his readers that he wants them to remember and be mindful of the words of the prophets. Do you know of any words of the prophets in the Old Testament regarding the passing away of heavens and earth IN A LITERAL SENSE? We have noted some instances in the Old Testament about the dissolving of the heavens (same word as used here in verse 13), and as we discuss this passage we shall notice some other places as well. But none of the places refer to a literal passing away of heaven and earth. And yet Peter is wanting to remind his readers of the words of the holy prophets. Keep this in mind.

Keep in mind also that Peter had previously written (I Peter 4:7), "But the end of all things is at hand.” Naturally he was not talking about the end of our present heavens and earth, for if he were, he was mistaken, for that has not happened and nineteen hundred years have gone by. He meant an end was at hand to the old heavens and earth of Judaism under the judgment of God - the end of the world (Jewish age) which Jesus has predicted would happen in that generation (Matt. 24:34). This occurred just a few years later after Peter had written it. So here he now reminds his readers not only of the words of the holy prophets, but also of "the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour" (vs. 2). The apostles had referred to the same things as spoken by the holy prophets in the Old Testament. ~ http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm

But, the universe will end. Peter says with a big bang where the elements met in a fervent heat. And a New Heavens and earth replace it. Why spiritualize the obvious?

DennisTate · Aug 27, 2018

Dave L said:
The rapture happens on the last day after the resurrection. There is no other rapture mentioned in scripture. And Paul: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

That was what I always thought too.....
now I am not quite so sure anymore.......

One thing I do know....... Christians who obsess over being taken out of here...... and don't reach out to the lost....... Even if they understand the doctrine of the rapture perfectly........... might not be doing what needs to be done to be in the rapture.......

1Corinthians 8:1

Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.

BABerean2 · Aug 27, 2018

DennisTate said:
That was what I always thought too.....
now I am not quite so sure anymore.......

One thing I do know....... Christians who obsess over being taken out of here...... and don't reach out to the lost....... Even if they understand the doctrine of the rapture perfectly........... might not be doing what needs to be done to be in the rapture.......

1Corinthians 8:1

Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled word-for-word by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and its pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

mkgal1 · Aug 28, 2018

Dave L said:
But, the universe will end. Peter says with a big bang where the elements met in a fervent heat. And a New Heavens and earth replace it. Why spiritualize the obvious?

Why make apocalyptic/prophetic passages (meant to be symbolic) literal?

"Heaven and earth" refers to prophecies that Jesus -in that one generation- fulfilled.

Quoting an excerpt from David B. Curtis:

Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but fulfill" -The use of the terms "the law" and "the prophets" indicates that what the Lord is speaking of in these verses is the whole of the Old Testament. If you trace these terms through your Bible, you will find that wherever this expression is used it includes the entire Old Testament:

Luke 24:44 (NKJV) Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

The "law of Moses", "the prophets", and "the psalms" speak of the entirety of the Old Testament.

The phrase "till heaven and earth pass away" refers to the duration of the whole Old Testament's authority. So, Jesus is saying that not a single item of the Law - the Old Testament - will ever be changed until heaven and earth pass away. Is that what Jesus said? I think it is!

Let's look at verse 18 in several other translations to make sure that we understand what is being said:

Matthew 5:18 (NIV) I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus says here that until heaven and earth disappear, not one bit of the law will disappear until it is all accomplished. Is that what it says?

Matthew 5:18 (DNT) For verily I say unto you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, one iota or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all come to pass.

Matthew 5:18 (GWT) I can guarantee this truth: Until the earth and the heavens disappear, neither a period nor a comma will disappear from Moses' Teachings before everything has come true.

Matthew 5:18 (NCV) I tell you the truth, nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. Not even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will be lost until everything has happened.

Jesus said that he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. What does it mean to fulfill the law? The word "fulfill" is from the Greek word pleroo. Matthew uses this word seventeen times, and in fifteen of them it clearly refers to prophecy being fulfilled or coming to pass. The law, which we read in the Old Testament and everything that has been said by the prophets, was going to "come to pass" down to the minutest detail. And until it was all fulfilled, it was binding on the people of God.

Matthew 5:18 (NASB) "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.

None of the law was to pass away until it was ALL accomplished. All of the law being accomplished would include all of the Old Testament prophecies being fulfilled. Would it not? All of the prophetic scriptures had to be fulfilled. This included the prophecies of the New Heaven and Earth. The New Covenant is always associated with a New Age. This new age would not come about until all that the prophets had spoken was fulfilled.

Isaiah 65:17 (NKJV) "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

This prophecy had to be fulfilled before the law could pass away. Until God created a new heaven and earth, the old covenant remained in tack, every bit of it. So, if we are not living in the New Heaven and Earth today, then we are under the law, every bit of it. ~ http://apostolicpreterist.com/Heaven___Earth.html

Dave L · Aug 28, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Why make apocalyptic/prophetic passages (meant to be symbolic) literal?

"Heaven and earth" refers to prophecies that Jesus -in that one generation- fulfilled.

Quoting an excerpt from David B. Curtis:

Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but fulfill" -The use of the terms "the law" and "the prophets" indicates that what the Lord is speaking of in these verses is the whole of the Old Testament. If you trace these terms through your Bible, you will find that wherever this expression is used it includes the entire Old Testament:

Luke 24:44 (NKJV) Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

The "law of Moses", "the prophets", and "the psalms" speak of the entirety of the Old Testament.

The phrase "till heaven and earth pass away" refers to the duration of the whole Old Testament's authority. So, Jesus is saying that not a single item of the Law - the Old Testament - will ever be changed until heaven and earth pass away. Is that what Jesus said? I think it is!

Let's look at verse 18 in several other translations to make sure that we understand what is being said:

Matthew 5:18 (NIV) I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus says here that until heaven and earth disappear, not one bit of the law will disappear until it is all accomplished. Is that what it says?

Matthew 5:18 (DNT) For verily I say unto you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, one iota or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all come to pass.

Matthew 5:18 (GWT) I can guarantee this truth: Until the earth and the heavens disappear, neither a period nor a comma will disappear from Moses' Teachings before everything has come true.

Matthew 5:18 (NCV) I tell you the truth, nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. Not even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will be lost until everything has happened.

Jesus said that he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. What does it mean to fulfill the law? The word "fulfill" is from the Greek word pleroo. Matthew uses this word seventeen times, and in fifteen of them it clearly refers to prophecy being fulfilled or coming to pass. The law, which we read in the Old Testament and everything that has been said by the prophets, was going to "come to pass" down to the minutest detail. And until it was all fulfilled, it was binding on the people of God.

Matthew 5:18 (NASB) "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.

None of the law was to pass away until it was ALL accomplished. All of the law being accomplished would include all of the Old Testament prophecies being fulfilled. Would it not? All of the prophetic scriptures had to be fulfilled. This included the prophecies of the New Heaven and Earth. The New Covenant is always associated with a New Age. This new age would not come about until all that the prophets had spoken was fulfilled.

Isaiah 65:17 (NKJV) "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

This prophecy had to be fulfilled before the law could pass away. Until God created a new heaven and earth, the old covenant remained in tack, every bit of it. So, if we are not living in the New Heaven and Earth today, then we are under the law, every bit of it. ~ http://apostolicpreterist.com/Heaven___Earth.html

And the heavens will wax old like a garment. Peter only says how, by fire. Science says the same too.

mkgal1 · Aug 28, 2018

Dave L said:
And the heavens will wax old like a garment. Peter only says how, by fire. Science says the same too.

Apocalyptic language. It has nothing to do with our actual soil we are stepping on.

Dave L · Aug 28, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Apocalyptic language. It has nothing to do with our actual soil we are stepping on.

You still err trying to make Peter say what he does not say.

mkgal1 · Aug 28, 2018

Dave L said:
You still err trying to make Peter say what he does not say.

I can bounce those words right back at you.

Do you believe the old covenant has truly "passed away"? If heaven and earth had to pass before the Old Law could pass; and if heaven and earth refers to literal, physical heaven and earth, then, since literal, physical heaven and earth still exist, [have not passed], it must be true that the Old Law has not passed (if a person wishes to believe in all this being literal).

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18).

Dave L · Aug 28, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I can bounce those words right back at you.

Do you believe the old covenant has truly "passed away"?

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18).

Absolutely. But the universe is temporal. Not eternal. Only God is eternal.

mkgal1 · Aug 28, 2018

Dave L said:
Absolutely. But the universe is temporal. Not eternal. Only God is eternal.

That's not revealed to us in Scripture.

I'd added this to my last post:

If heaven and earth had to pass before the Old Law could pass; and if heaven and earth refers to literal, physical heaven and earth, then, since literal, physical heaven and earth still exist, [have not passed], it must be true that the Old Law has not passed (if a person wishes to believe in all this being literal).

Dave L · Aug 28, 2018

mkgal1 said:
That's not revealed to us in Scripture.

I'd added this to my last post:

If heaven and earth had to pass before the Old Law could pass; and if heaven and earth refers to literal, physical heaven and earth, then, since literal, physical heaven and earth still exist, [have not passed], it must be true that the Old Law has not passed (if a person wishes to believe in all this being literal).

It's all there, you just refuse to accept it.

mkgal1 · Aug 28, 2018

People can see all sorts of things in the biblical text.....that doesn't make it truth.

More quoting of David Curtis:

In Leviticus 26:14-20, God warns Israel that she must listen and obey Him in the commandments that He has given them. God uses various terms and expressions in describing what it will be like if they despise His statutes, but notice particularly verse 19: "and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass." Compare Genesis 1:1 with Leviticus 26:19, are the terms "heaven and earth" to be understood in the same way? They clearly do not mean the same thing in each verse. Notice how the character of Israel's disposition in God's view is personalized, "your heaven" and "your earth." So the terms "heaven" and "earth" belong or relate to Israel, they evidently constitute a "heaven" and "earth."

Who is God speaking to in Isaiah 1:1-2, "…Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth." The physical creation? No, he is speaking to Israel. And who is the witness in Deuteronomy 4:26, "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day"? Physical creation or Old Covenant Israel?

Another example of "heaven and earth" being referred to the Covenant World of Israel, and not literal creation, is Isaiah 51:16, "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people." Notice that God is speaking to Israel. He says he gave them his law, the Old Covenant, the same law Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 5:17-18, to establish heaven and lay the foundation of the earth! Clearly God is not saying he gave the Old Covenant to Israel to create literal heaven and earth! Material creation existed long before Israel was ever given the Old Covenant.

The meaning of this verse is that God gave his covenant with Israel to create their world--a covenant world with God! God created Israel's "heaven and earth" by giving them his Covenant. Now if he destroyed that Old Covenant heaven and earth and gave a New Covenant, would he not thereby be creating a New heaven and earth? This is precisely the thought in the New Covenant Scriptures! ~ https://www.ecclesia.org/truth/heaven-earth.html

Dave L · Aug 28, 2018

mkgal1 said:
People can see all sorts of things in the biblical text.....that doesn't make it truth.

But, literal interpretation in Peter's literal surroundings makes sense. To spiritualize in his literal context is arbitrary.

mkgal1 · Aug 28, 2018

Dave L said:
But, literal interpretation in literal surroundings makes sense. To spiritualize in a literal context is arbitrary.

That's not a "literal surrounding" though. Prophecies are written in symbolic language. Peter was using a Jewish idiom ("heaven and earth"). Jesus also used symbolic language when He was referring to prophecies. When He said,

Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.” ~ John 2:19

....was He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem...or "this temple" as His body? Symbolism. Prophetic symbolism.

Dave L · Aug 28, 2018

mkgal1 said:
That's not a "literal surrounding" though. Prophecies are written in symbolic language (and Daniel and Revelation are prophetic books). Jesus also used symbolic language when He was referring to prophecies. When He said,

Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.” ~ John 2:19

....was He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem...or "this temple" as His body? Symbolism. Prophetic symbolism.

There is zero reason to think Peter is speaking metaphorically. Go ahead and believe what you must. But count me out.

mkgal1 · Aug 28, 2018

Dave L said:
There is zero reason to think Peter is speaking metaphorically. Go ahead and believe what you must. But count me out.

I'm unsure of why a person would grasp so tightly to this. With this belief....you'd have to believe the Old Covenant has not passed away (since the earth hasn't passed away). But you also go ahead......I'll stick with my belief that Jesus did what He said He'd do (fulfill ALL that was prophesied about Him).

mkgal1 · Aug 28, 2018

Still from David Curtis:

In 2 Peter 3:1-2, Peter is reminding us of what has already been said. The New Testament does not contain brand new prophecies that just dropped out of the sky containing new information. 2 Peter 3 is just a reiteration of what has already been written by the prophets that spoke before. Peter gives us a key to interpretation. That key is that what he is saying has been written by the Old Testament prophets. Keep that in mind.

In 2 Peter 3:3-4, Peter said that these scoffers would come in the last days, when are the last days? Micah 4:1 says that God's kingdom will be established in the last days. According to Peter in Acts 2:14-20, the last days began at Pentecost and these last days included and ended with the great and awesome day of the Lord.

In Hebrews 1:1-2, the "last days" refers to the last days of the house of Israel, the last days of the Old Covenant. The last days are the period from 30 AD to 70 AD. Isn't it interesting that during that time the scoffers were already asking, "where is the promise of His coming?" If they were questioning His coming then, about 35 years after his death, what would they be saying today, two thousand years later? They knew that his coming was to be soon, sometime within the first century.

Now, some use the argument from 2 Peter 3:5-7 that the world was destroyed in Noah's day and the world will be destroyed again. Lets consider that argument.

Peter says that the world consisted of heaven and earth, and that they were destroyed by water and perished. We know that the substance of neither heaven or earth was destroyed, but it was the evil men that were destroyed, God brought "the flood upon the world of the ungodly" (2 Peter 2:5). Peter makes a distinction between the heaven and earth of Noah's day which were destroyed, and the heaven and earth that existed then which were to be destroyed by fire. The literal visible fabric of heaven and earth were the same after the flood as they were before the flood. Lets remember what we saw in the Old Testament as to the apocalyptic use of heaven and earth. The destruction of heaven and earth refers to the civil and religious state, and the men of them. What was it that really perished in the flood? Look at verse 6 – "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished." It was the world that perished, right? Now what does the word "world" mean? It is the orderly arrangement of society, it wasn't the dirt. Now how do you go from an ungodly society that was destroyed to the destruction of the entire universe? The literal earth was not destroyed. What is to be destroyed is the ungodly nation of Israel. Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that the physical creation will be destroyed. Notice what God said after the flood of Noah's day in Genesis 8:21.

Genesis 8:21, "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."
Now, folks will say that the Lord destroyed the earth by water one time and He'll destroy it by fire the next time. Is God's promise here to just change his method of destroying everything? Is there comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water? Or is he promising not to destroy the earth again?

God said the literal heaven (Psalm 148:4-6) and the literal earth (Psalm 104:5) will never pass away. Psalms 78:69, "...the earth which he hath established for ever." In Genesis 8:21, God said he would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word. "…the earth abideth for ever" (Ecclesiastes 1:4). And remember Isaiah 9:7, "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end." If the earth is to be destroyed, then that would be the end of the increase of Christ's government.

2 Peter 3:8-9 is simply saying that God keeps his promises. ~ https://www.ecclesia.org/truth/heaven-earth.html

Copperhead · Aug 28, 2018

DennisTate said:
That was what I always thought too.....
now I am not quite so sure anymore.......

One thing I do know....... Christians who obsess over being taken out of here...... and don't reach out to the lost....... Even if they understand the doctrine of the rapture perfectly........... might not be doing what needs to be done to be in the rapture.......

1Corinthians 8:1

Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.

I am not so certain of that. But I might have read what you wrote wrong. Those that generally hold to a pre-trib position are keenly aware that time is short and the even could happen at any moment. So the need to reach the lost is more critical than ever. Many of us actually feel remorse that we did not do more up to this point regarding reaching the lost.

I would contend that those who do not see any pre-trib removal also tend to be lethargic in their pursuit to reach the lost. Sure, they might be concerned with social issues and such, as is befitting the so-called "emergent" church movement, but as for focusing on the cross and the gospel, maybe not so much. After all, those that hold to other views feel that they have time. When the events start to occur, then they will step up to the plate. Instead of putting efforts into reaching the lost, they seem more intent on attacking the brethren who don't hold to the same eschatology they do.

But it is taking the entire picture in view of what is coming down at the tribulation period that causes some like myself to see the removal as not so much a escapism thing, but a rescue from the most horrendous time that will ever befall mankind, that was never intended for the righteous. An in-depth study of "as it was in the days of Noah" will really chill you to your bones. I am not sure that many really have even a basic grasp of what was going on at the time of Noah to cause the Lord to wipe out all of mankind. Yeshua said is clearly that men's hearts would fail them for what is coming upon the earth. I take that literally to mean some will go into cardiac arrest when they see what is coming upon them. It is going to be stuff that mankind has not ever seen on any kind of a scale before. It is sure going to make ISIS type stuff seem like child's play. I believe many have a very myopic view of what is coming.

It is not so much an escapism thing as for trusting in the pre-trib removal as it is literally a rescue from a sinking ship. Just as Yeshua stated, if those days were not shortened, no flesh would remain. It will be a time that has never been before, nor will ever be matched again. Death, especially early during that time, might just be a blessing. All of the horror films that Hollywood has produced will never come close to what is going to go down during that time.

BABerean2 · Aug 28, 2018

Copperhead said:
It is not so much an escapism thing as for trusting in the pre-trib removal as it is literally a rescue from a sinking ship. Just as Yeshua stated, if those days were not shortened, no flesh would remain. It will be a time that has never been before, nor will ever be matched again. Death, especially early during that time, might just be a blessing. All of the horror films that Hollywood has produced will never come close to what is going to go down during that time.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled word-for-word by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and its pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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