Two Messiah?

Hoshiyya said:

The Jews when they "sent the goat into the wilderness" would throw it down a cliff, in other words it would tumble down into a (physical) abyss.

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Goats don't actually make atonement for anything, but removing the antichrist and what he represents is obviously a prerequisite for atonement. You repent of your sins, remove your sins, then you are forgiven.

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You might as well say "goats represent sinners (Matthew 25:33), so why isn't Yeshua symbolized by a lamb instead?"

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Because Azazel is already in the abyss, as described in revelation (where he is called the angel of the abyss). Of course, Satan and Azazel share a lot of symbology, but Satan is not the antichrist, whereas the angel of the abyss is. The parallel is between christ and antichrist.

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gadar perets said:

YHWH never commanded that practice in the written Torah. They were told to " let him go for a scapegoat (Hebrew - goat of departure) into the wilderness." It was a picture of the sins of Israel being take away.

"But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before YHWH, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness."​

Goats can represent sinners or they an represent Yeshua depending on the context. There is no doubt that the first goat that was killed represented Yeshua.


You are assuming Rev 9:11 refers to Azazel even though the text says it refers to Abaddon or Apollyon. It seems to me the antichrist does not come on the scene until Rev 13.

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Hoshiyya said:

The goat was thrown off a cliff into the depths below to make sure it died. The Jews discovered that the goat would always wander back to where it came from if they didn't. Eventually it became tradition to have a pair of gentiles go with the goat to push it off the cliff.

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gadar perets said:

I am aware of that. That pictures their committing the same sins over and over again year after year. Killing the goat was not the answer. True repentance and a true atonement by not merely covering over their sins, but a total removal of them along with a cleansing of the conscience was the answer. That could only happen when the ultimate atonement through Yeshua was made. The antichrist will not atone for anything. He will simply be thrown in the lake of fire as punishment for his own sins.

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yeshuaslavejeff said:

excerpts from online concerning Biblical "scapegoat"

Verse 8

for the scapegoat. Hebrew for "Azazel. This "for" looks like a personality answering to "for Jehovah". If it be the Evil one who is meant, then it is for his defiance. For in Leviticus 16:10 atonement is made for this goat, and he is to go free. Where there is atonement there must be forgiveness. See note on Leviticus 16:22 below.

Verse 10

to be the scapegoat. Hebrew "to be for "Azazel" (see Leviticus 16:8 and Leviticus 16:22).

presented = made to stand.

with him. Hebrew "for him". See verses: Leviticus 16:16, Leviticus 16:18. The scapegoat was not used to make atonement, but atonement was made for it. Hence he was to be "let go" free. See Leviticus 16:22.

wilderness: or desert, symbol of abode of all evil things (Isaiah 13:21; Isaiah 34:14. Matthew 12:43. Luke 8:27; Luke 11:24. Revelation 18:2). "Azazel probably the personification of all that is "great and terrible" there (Deuteronomy 1:19; Deuteronomy 8:15. Jeremiah 2:6).

Verse 21

both his hands. This for solemnity; and only here, on this occasion.

live goat. The two goats complete the one type of Christ. One could not, for He was "put to death as to the flesh", but made alive [again] as to the spirit", i.e. in resurrection (1 Peter 3:17. 1 Corinthians 15:45). He was "made sin" for us, that we might become divinely righteous in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

all. Note the four "alls" in verses: Leviticus 16:21, Leviticus 16:22. Figure of speech Repetitio (App-6) to emphasize the completeness of our deliverance from sins, and their entire removal.

iniquities. Hebrew. "avah. App-44. t

ransgressions. Hebrew. pash"a. App-44.

a fit man. The phrase occurs only here.

Verse 22

shall bear = shall bear away, as Isaiah 53:4.

land not inhabited. Hebrew "a land cut off".

let go. This is the point of the type. The live goat was sent away, not in judgment or atonement, but in peace and at liberty. "All" had already been atoned for in the death of the other goat (Leviticus 16:10). Now he was free to go into the land of forgetfulness, where their "sins and iniquities are remembered no more" (Isaiah 43:25. Jeremiah 31:34). The scapegoat goes forth to "Azazel, all enemies thus personified (Hebrews 2:14), proclaiming, "Who is he that condemneth? "(Romans 8:33, Romans 8:34). Not in fear of death, but saying, "Who dares to kill me? "It is the lesson, over again, of the "two birds" in Ch. Leviticus 14:51-53, applied to the whole nation. It is a type of those who are "risen with Christ" (Colossians 3:1), i.e. made alive again in His resurrection life. Tradition treats this second goat as loaded with sin and sent out to destruction; whereas "all" is "atoned" for and is therefore "forgiven" and liberty enjoyed before it was sent away.

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Tsvi Misinai claims that the majority of the Palestinian people—including those with Israeli citizenship or residency, known variously as Arab citizens of Israel, Arab Israelis, Israeli Arabs, including the Bedouin Arabs of Israel—are descendants of the ancient Hebrews, as most of the world's Jewish ethnic divisions are.[6]Furthermore, he claims that at least half of them are quietly aware of this fact.[7]

According to Misinai, unlike the ancestors of the modern day Jews who were city dwellers to a large extent, the Hebrew ancestors of the Palestinians were rural dwellers, and were allowed to remain in the land of Israel to work the land and supply Rome with grain and olive oil.

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DennisTate said:

Am I way off to think of Barabbas / Bar Abbas as an obvious "goat for Azazel" in that he was released......... and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus was crucified?

Did he come to repentance?

And... if the Tsvi Misinai research is accurate... the present President of Palestine could be his great, great, great......... grandson?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsvi_Misinai


Sid Roth wrote in one of his books that there are estimates that there could have been 400,000 Messianic Jews living in the Roman province of Judaea at the time of the Bar Kochba Revolt......... they did not join the revolt...... and thus.... were not expelled from the land after it was crushed.

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Heber Book List said:

I too noted Abbas name. In fact with his first name meaning '[Someone] to be praised' or a variation on that theme, means his whole name means 'Praise to the father'.

Bar Abba (son of the father), was how hasatan caused the people to reject Yeshua. They were asked whether they should free (bar Abba) the Son of the Father or Yeshua the Nazarite and King of Jews - they knew Yeshua called himself Son of the Father, but didn't openly call himself King of the Jews', so they went for bar Abba. The appearance of Yeshua was much like that of any other man, as we know from the authorities needing someone to point him out, so it was easy to confuse him and bar Abba.

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