When do the last days end?

claninja · Aug 27, 2018

oldrunner said:
John is using a historical reference that everyone will know about.

John is slipping in historical references into his visions from God?

oldrunner said:
Everyone will know of the great battle because they will be burring dead bodies for seven months and they have a name that speaks the name of "Gog". And of course, the DOTL only happens once. As Hebrews points out.

So, Gog and Magog is signifying all the enemies of God, from all over the Earth at that time.

ze 39:11　 "It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog.　

Eze 39:12　 For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land.　

Eze 39:13　 Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.　

Does this great battle occur before or after Christ's coming?

drjean · Aug 27, 2018

When you ask about Christ's 'coming' are you referring to the gathering together of believers which He does from the sky, or at His returning to blow away the enemies of God and puts his feet onto the Mount?

Oldmantook · Aug 27, 2018

DavidPT said:
I don't think it implies His kingdom has an end. I see it meaning certain things will no longer be needed at some point, such as judgment and death. That is the aspects of the kingdom that end, but not that the kingdom itself ends since that would contradict texts already telling us His kingdom is everlasting.

The Father and the Son - though the same God - have different roles to play. The millennial reign of Christ specifically last for 1,000 years. Revelation 20:7-10 specifically states that after the 1,000 years, Satan is released from his prison and gathers for the battle of Gog and Magog one last time. Satan's dominion, power and authority is finally defeated by Jesus and the devil is thrown into the lake of fire. This corresponds perfectly with 1 Cor 15:24 where the mission of Jesus is now completed as Satan's dominion, power & authority is defeated at Gog/Magog and he hands over the kingdom to the Father whose kingdom never ends.

keras · Aug 27, 2018

claninja said:
If the Gog-magog war is prior to the millennial (last days) according to Ezekiel 39, how come it occurs after the millennium in revelation?

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle.

They are separate attacks. This is made clear by the disposal of the bodies; firstly by carrion birds and their completed burial after seven months.
The attack by armies from every nation against Jesus; near the end of His Millennium reign, will be totally burned up by fire from heaven. Gog/ Magog is just used there as a metaphor for a huge army.

Regarding the attack described in Zechariah 14:1-2; this will be when the leader of the One World Govt, the Anti-Christ conquers the new nation that will occupy all of the holy Land. The Christian nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-15
The AC will take control of them for the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. Revelation 13:7, Daniel 7:25
THAT is the 42 month 'time of the Gentiles'. Revelation 11:2

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 27, 2018

claninja said:
You mean, he literally doesn't say "i am living in the last days"? I agree, there is no greek in acts 2:16-17 that literally states' i am living in the last days".

1.) According to Joel, when would God pour out his spirit? last days
2.) Was Peter living at the time God poured out his spirit? yes

Therefore, Peter was living in the last days. Peter is one that the states THIS IS THAT.

What about these time statements?

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-their-problems.8071615/page-49#post-72957987
The time is nigh

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things/pantwn <3956> yet the End Has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448>;
be sane! then and be sober! into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448>;

What "Day" is Paul talking about? And did he and the Apostles write their epistles before 70ad?

Romans 13:
11 And this knowing the time, that hour it-is already out of sleep to be roused, for now nearer/egguteron <1452> of us the Salvation than when we believed.
12 The Night progresses, the yet Day has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448>.
We should be putting off then the works of the Darkness, we should be putting on the implements of the Light.

Revelation 12:10
And I hear great voice saying in the Heaven "now! became the Salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him,
that was cast the Accuser of the brothers of us, the accusing them in sight of the God of us day and night.

BABerean2 · Aug 27, 2018

oldrunner said:
In Chapter 11, we have John measuring the Temple, altar, and those who worship there. And he is told not to measure the outer court cause it will be trampled down by the gentiles for 3.5 years. And to make sure we got the fact it was the real literal Temple, and a real literal future Jerusalem he was talking about, he says-where their Lord was crucified.

The location of the temple in Revelation chapter 11 is found at the end of the chapter.

Rev 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

Rev 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

.

DavidPT · Aug 27, 2018

Oldmantook said:
The Father and the Son - though the same God - have different roles to play. The millennial reign of Christ specifically last for 1,000 years. Revelation 20:7-10 specifically states that after the 1,000 years, Satan is released from his prison and gathers for the battle of Gog and Magog one last time. Satan's dominion, power and authority is finally defeated by Jesus and the devil is thrown into the lake of fire. This corresponds perfectly with 1 Cor 15:24 where the mission of Jesus is now completed as Satan's dominion, power & authority is defeated at Gog/Magog and he hands over the kingdom to the Father whose kingdom never ends.

I don't disagree with anything in your post except for what you said at the end---to the Father whose kingdom never ends. Clearly the Father's kingdom never ends, so not disagreeing with you about that part in general. My disagreement is the part about Jesus' kingdom ending and that it only leaves the Father's kingdom remaining.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The way these verses read to me is like such.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, Jesus came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Father, and they brought Jesus near before the Father.
And there was given Jesus dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Jesus: Jesus' dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and Jesus' kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

If this is correct, Jesus' kingdom can never end if it can never be destroyed. If you perhaps understand verse 13 and 14 differently, I'm willing to hear your understanding of those verses.

oldrunner · Aug 27, 2018

BABerean2 said:
The location of the temple in Revelation chapter 11 is found at the end of the chapter.

Rev 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

Rev 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

.

What???

So the outer court can be trampled underfoot in Heaven? John was on Earth, then the action moves to Heaven. Re-read it.

There is a Temple and Ark in Heaven, that is the pattern Moses and David copied from.

Exo 25:9　 According to all that I show you, the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all of its furniture, even so you shall make it.

1Ch 28:10　 Take heed now; for Yahweh has chosen you to build a house for the sanctuary. Be strong, and do it."　

1Ch 28:11　 Then David gave to Solomon his son the plans for the porch of the temple, for its houses, for its treasuries, for its upper rooms, for its inner rooms, for the place of the mercy seat;　

1Ch 28:12　 and the plans of all that he had by the Spirit, for the courts of Yahweh’s house, for all the surrounding rooms, for the treasuries of God’s house, and for the treasuries of the dedicated things;

1Ch 28:19　 "All this", said David, "I have been made to understand in writing from Yahweh’s hand, even all the works of this pattern."　

Heb 8:5　 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, even as Moses was warned by God when he was about to make the tabernacle, for he said, "See, you shall make everything according to the pattern that was shown to you on the mountain."　

　

parousia70 · Aug 27, 2018

oldrunner said:
Yep! Only one Day of The Lord talked about in the Bible, and when it's done, it's done!

Actually, There have been several "Day of the Lord" events documented for us in scripture.

This particular "Day of the Lord" event took place in 539 BC when the Medes Sacked Babylon:

Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9-13 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

Isaiah 13:17 "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it.

The desolation of Jerusalem by the Babylonians was another past "Day of the Lord." After it happened, the prophet Jeremiah tells us:

Lamentations 1:12
behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger.

Lamentations 2:1
How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger

Lamentations 2:21
The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied.

Lamentations 2:22
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained

Furthermore, Ezekiel had foretold of this same Day of the Lord against Jerusalem which took place in the 500s BC, saying:

Ezekiel 7:19
They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of Jehovah: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.

And again, Ezekiel says of this same past Day of the Lord...

Ezekiel 13:2-5
Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.

The prophet Zephaniah also calls the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians "the Day of the Lord."

Zephaniah 1:1 - 1:7

The word of Yahweh which came to Zephaniah, the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hezekiah, in the days of Josiah, the son of Amon, king of Judah. I will utterly sweep away everything off of the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will sweep away man and animal. I will sweep away the birds of the sky, the fish of the sea, and the heaps of rubble with the wicked. I will cut off man from the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place: the name of the idolatrous and pagan priests, those who worship the host of the sky on the housetops, those who worship and swear by Yahweh and also swear by Malcam, those who have turned back from following Yahweh, and those who haven't sought Yahweh nor inquired after him. Be silent at the presence of the Lord Yahweh, for the day of Yahweh is at hand. For Yahweh has prepared a sacrifice. He has consecrated his guests.

Folks, there we have the classic "Day of the Lord" in scripture. Not a single one time event, but a phrase the prophets used to describe any number of Judgments.

Micah 1:1-9 -- Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem
*Nahum 1:1-8 -- Nineveh's doom
*Zephaniah 1:1-10,14-18 -- Judgment against Judah
*2 Samuel 22:8-16 -- destruction of Saul's kingdom
*Ezekiel 32:1-12 -- Judgment against Egypt by Babylon

In each of these fulfilled passages, we read all of the common apocalyptic metaphors to describe Jehovah's comings:

*the destruction of earth
*the bowing of the heavens
*the melting of the mountains like wax
*the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
*the wiping away of every living thing
*blood as high as the mountains
*the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
*Etc. etc.

This is known as APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE, which is Hebraic prophetic idiom used by the prophets to foretell the downfall of nations and individuals by God in history. It is uniquely apocalyptic and hyperbolic in nature. So also Christ, being of this well-known prophetic tradition, used the same apocalyptic language to foretell the downfall of Israel at her greatest Day of the Lord judgment at AD 66-70 (e.g., compare Matt 24:29-30 to Isaiah 13:10-11 concerning Babylon and Ezekiel 32:7-8 concerning Nebuchadnezzar and Egypt.)

--COMPARE THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Ezekiel 32:7-8
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

--TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

--AND TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Isaiah 13:10
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

This is all apocalyptic language employed by the Hebrew prophets concerning things and events that have already taken place. They do not prophesy whatsoever about things in our future, for they were already fulfilled.

In AD 67-70, coincident with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple at the end of the Old Covenant age, Jesus "came" in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's old testament comings. The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

oldrunner · Aug 27, 2018

parousia70 said:
Actually, There have been several "Day of the Lord" events documented for us in scripture.

This particular "Day of the Lord" event took place in 539 BC when the Medes Sacked Babylon:

Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9-13 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

Isaiah 13:17 "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it.

The desolation of Jerusalem by the Babylonians was another past "Day of the Lord." After it happened, the prophet Jeremiah tells us:

Lamentations 1:12
behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger.

Lamentations 2:1
How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger

Lamentations 2:21
The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied.

Lamentations 2:22
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained

Furthermore, Ezekiel had foretold of this same Day of the Lord against Jerusalem which took place in the 500s BC, saying:

Ezekiel 7:19
They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of Jehovah: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.

And again, Ezekiel says of this same past Day of the Lord...

Ezekiel 13:2-5
Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.

The prophet Zephaniah also calls the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians "the Day of the Lord."

Zephaniah 1:1 - 1:7

The word of Yahweh which came to Zephaniah, the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hezekiah, in the days of Josiah, the son of Amon, king of Judah. I will utterly sweep away everything off of the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will sweep away man and animal. I will sweep away the birds of the sky, the fish of the sea, and the heaps of rubble with the wicked. I will cut off man from the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place: the name of the idolatrous and pagan priests, those who worship the host of the sky on the housetops, those who worship and swear by Yahweh and also swear by Malcam, those who have turned back from following Yahweh, and those who haven't sought Yahweh nor inquired after him. Be silent at the presence of the Lord Yahweh, for the day of Yahweh is at hand. For Yahweh has prepared a sacrifice. He has consecrated his guests.

Folks, there we have the classic "Day of the Lord" in scripture. Not a single one time event, but a phrase the prophets used to describe any number of Judgments.

Micah 1:1-9 -- Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem
*Nahum 1:1-8 -- Nineveh's doom
*Zephaniah 1:1-10,14-18 -- Judgment against Judah
*2 Samuel 22:8-16 -- destruction of Saul's kingdom
*Ezekiel 32:1-12 -- Judgment against Egypt by Babylon

In each of these fulfilled passages, we read all of the common apocalyptic metaphors to describe Jehovah's comings:

*the destruction of earth
*the bowing of the heavens
*the melting of the mountains like wax
*the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
*the wiping away of every living thing
*blood as high as the mountains
*the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
*Etc. etc.

This is known as APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE, which is Hebraic prophetic idiom used by the prophets to foretell the downfall of nations and individuals by God in history. It is uniquely apocalyptic and hyperbolic in nature. So also Christ, being of this well-known prophetic tradition, used the same apocalyptic language to foretell the downfall of Israel at her greatest Day of the Lord judgment at AD 66-70 (e.g., compare Matt 24:29-30 to Isaiah 13:10-11 concerning Babylon and Ezekiel 32:7-8 concerning Nebuchadnezzar and Egypt.)

--COMPARE THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Ezekiel 32:7-8
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

--TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

--AND TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Isaiah 13:10
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

This is all apocalyptic language employed by the Hebrew prophets concerning things and events that have already taken place. They do not prophesy whatsoever about things in our future, for they were already fulfilled.

In AD 67-70, coincident with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple at the end of the Old Covenant age, Jesus "came" in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's old testament comings. The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

Good luck with that defense during the Day of The Lord. :tutu:

parousia70 · Aug 27, 2018

DavidPT said:
Yet not everyone who might live to the age of 100 in this present age are Christians. Some might be be, some might not be. Don't know how you can also apply that to the latter then?

Isaiah points out the difference for us. I apply it the same way He does.:

for the child shall die a hundred years old,

but the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isaiah contrasts "Child" here with it's opposite, "sinner".

parousia70 · Aug 27, 2018

oldrunner said:
Good luck with that defense during the Day of The Lord.

The surety of Scripture is all the defense I need.
And my post most certainly obliterates your unfounded claim that:

"Only one Day of The Lord talked about in the Bible"

Good luck using "scripture is wrong" as YOUR defense.....

parousia70 · Aug 27, 2018

DavidPT said:
But that aside, anyone in this present age that sees 100, they are at the end of their lives, IOW are seen as very, very old, and certainly not youthful.

Seen by who?

AGAIN, The Christain with Eternal life is but a Child after his first 100 years.

parousia70 · Aug 27, 2018

oldrunner said:
The interesting thing is the Book of Revelation was written after the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

Another unfounded claim?

Show us your proof of this spurious assertion.

BABerean2 · Aug 27, 2018

oldrunner said:
What??? So the outer court can be trampled underfoot in Heaven? John was on Earth, then the action moves to Heaven. Re-read it.

Do you believe there are two different temples of God in Revelation chapter 11, when the earthly city of Jerusalem is described as being spiritually like Sodom and Egypt in the passage?
Does it sound like a city in a right relationship with God, which contains a temple where God is welcome?

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

.

joshua 1 9 · Aug 27, 2018

DamianWarS said:
So then the destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD was only a shadow...

Yes everything in the OT is a shadow and a type. A modern word they are using now is paradigm. We have all heard this many time. For example look at Ruth and Boaz. We see that Ruth is a type of the gentile bride. Boaz our kinsman redeemer is a type of Christ. The Temple in Jerusalam was a physical building but the Church is Spiritual and we are the Temple of God. I know lots of pastors with two year degrees that are very good at explaining this because the Holy Spirit of God is their teacher.

keras · Aug 27, 2018

parousia70 said:
Another unfounded claim?

Show us your proof of this spurious assertion.

This is a rude and nasty accusation.
The reality is that you can't prove that Revelation was written before 70 AD. So to demand someone to prove it was written after 70 AD, is quite unreasonable.

But from the evidence we do have, especially the fact that Revelation just does not relate to events of 70 to 135 AD and describes events that simple have not occurred yet, then the 90-95 AD date for John writing Revelation, is more probable.

DamianWarS · Aug 27, 2018

joshua 1 9 said:
Yes everything in the OT is a shadow and a type. A modern word they are using now is paradigm. We have all heard this many time. For example look at Ruth and Boaz. We see that Ruth is a type of the gentile bride. Boaz our kinsman redeemer is a type of Christ. The Temple in Jerusalam was a physical building but the Church is Spiritual and we are the Temple of God. I know lots of pastors with two year degrees that are very good at explaining this because the Holy Spirit of God is their teacher.

But I'm not talking about the OT I'm referencing the words of Christ.

DamianWarS · Aug 27, 2018

parousia70 said:
So when Jesus said:
"For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:20

He is there with them in His Glorified Flesh?

Or perhaps His glorified Flesh is being stored dormant, spiritless, in heaven, and His spirit departs from it and travels around to be in the midst of His gathering believers?

Remember, Jesus was not referencing the Holy Spirit in Matt 18:20, rather He was referencing His own Personhood. "There I AM"

Did Thomas not feel the scars and torn flesh of Christ?

joshua 1 9 · Aug 28, 2018

DamianWarS said:
But I'm not talking about the OT I'm referencing the words of Christ.

Yes we are talking about Matthew chapter 24. The disciples asked TWO (2) questions at the same time. The entire chapter, the entire teaching of Jesus answers BOTH of these questions at the SAME time. One question has to do with the Temple In Jersalam. The other question talks about the end of the Church age.

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus said: "37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". Now you try to tell me you are not talking about the words of Jesus but this is the word of Jesus and He is talking about the days of Noah and how that relates to the future and the coming of the Son of Man.

We know that in the days of Noah the world was baptized or cleansed by water. At the end of this age we know that the world will be cleansed with fire. Even this has already begun with the fires in the State of California and in the west. We are told that. One third of the earth will be burned with fire. Rev 8:7 " So a third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up"

All scriptures contain types, shadows, symbols, and similitudes of Jesus Christ. Jesus would teach us how to understand and interpret the words we read in our Bible. You can take classes at your Bible college. You can listen to teachings on YouTube or you can do a google search and learn the rules for Bible interpretation and how to understand the teachings of Jesus. Or you could even find some Ebooks that can help you with this. There use to be a lot of referance books written.

Each generation has to do all they can to help the next generation. Look at people like Ussher. He spent his whole life to study history. Then he wrote ONE book on the history of the world. A book we still use today. So his whole life work could be summed up into one book. Or someone like Strong. His whole lifes work is contained in one book that we still use on the internet today. So past generation has a responsibility to help this generation.

In Heaven the people who wrote the Bible for us wonder more about us then we do about them. Because they were talking to us before we were even born. So now that we are in the world and we are living out the words God give them to record they find this amazing and they praise God all the more for the wonderful work He did in and through them. Although they do not understand why more people do not listen to do the word of God. As we know there are many that hear but not as may that are doers of the word of God give to us. Perhaps a part of the reason is people do not understand the shadows and the types and how to apply the word of God to our life.

I read Cahn's book: "Paradigm". It took me three days to read this book. The reason is so I can help people to understand how the stories we read in the Bible applies to us today. Cahn does a real good job of explaining all of that but it takes a bit of effort to read his book and to understand how this all works.

When do the last days end?

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Active Member

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Follower of Isa Al Masih

Follower of Isa Al Masih

Well-Known Member

Similar threads