A question for flat earth people

JacksBratt said:

Again, it was written to all human kind and is relevant throughout the ages.

Click to expand...

Relevant, yes, not timebound in terms of when and by who it was written, no.

For example, in ancient times people variously believed that the heart, liver and entrails were the centres of thought in the body. We can now demonstrate that thinking takes place in the brain (although other parts of the body may have some related roles). So, passages that would have been taken literally by the original readers about thinking or reflection in the heart or guts, would now be seen as figurative. Or would you disagree?

Chinchilla said:

Throught like all the books of OT plus majority Genesis 1

Job 37:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

Click to expand...

That sounds pretty poetic ...

Tom Farebrother said:

What do you mean when you say that the Bible was written by God?

Click to expand...

What I mean is that "in the beginning was the word"... So, the scriptures are the word of God... written by men who were divinely inspired by God. It is God breathed... penned by men. Not simply recorded history as men wrote what they felt.

Tom Farebrother said:

Relevant, yes, not timebound in terms of when and by who it was written, no.

For example, in ancient times people variously believed that the heart, liver and entrails were the centres of thought in the body. We can now demonstrate that thinking takes place in the brain (although other parts of the body may have some related roles). So, passages that would have been taken literally by the original readers about thinking or reflection in the heart or guts, would now be seen as figurative. Or would you disagree?

Click to expand...

Can you show me where, in the scriptures, that this belief is relevant and affects the power of the truth of the canon?

A_Thinker said:

That sounds pretty poetic ...

Click to expand...

So does the song that children sing about the alphabet... but, still true and still teaches the truth. Being poetic does not mean absent of truth.

JacksBratt said:

I know, the egg heads could draw some elaborate equations on a chalk board, that only them and four others would understand, and conclude from the cryptic scribbles that it "must work". But, I'm not buying any of it.

Click to expand...

Right ... we'll just assume that the universe works like your vacuum cleaner.

If space is a vacuum then why doesn't it suck in all the air from Earth's atmosphere? Actually, the answer to this is interesting.

While gravity is most certainly a real thing, the answer to this question is not “because gravity is stronger”.

The actual answer is that the vacuum of space does not exert any force on the atmosphere at all. It does not “suck” the air. We associate the word “suck” with “vacuums” but it’s a misnomer. That’s not what vacuums do.

Consider an example where we’ve pumped all of the air out of some airtight container and created a vacuum inside of it. Let’s say we’re on Earth, at sea level, and we poke a hole in the container. What will happen?

Air will rush into the container and fill it. Okay. But why did it do that? Was it because the vacuum sucked the air into the container? No.

What’s actually happening there is that the air pressure around the container is forcing air into the space with no pressure. The air that fills the container is being pushed by air pressure into the empty space.

Vacuums never “suck” air. What they do is present an empty space and then air pressure forces the air into the vacuum.

Air pressure is not uniform throughout the atmosphere. The lower the altitude, the higher the air pressure; thus, as you move higher, the air pressure decreases. In fact, at the upper limits of the atmosphere, the air pressure reduces to basically nil.

And since there’s no real air pressure to speak of up there, then there is no force pushing the air into the empty space.

Now, this doesn’t mean gravity isn’t at work here. In fact, gravity is the reason we have air pressure in the first place. Gravity pulls on the atmosphere, compressing it, and creating pressure.

If we could magically turn off gravity then the atmosphere would be released from that compression and spring away from the Earth.

So, at the root of it, gravity keeps the most highly pressurized atmosphere near the surface. When our very thin outer atmosphere intercepts the vacuum of space, there is very little air pressure to push into that vacuum.

JacksBratt said:

What I mean is that "in the beginning was the word"... So, the scriptures are the word of God... written by men who were divinely inspired by God. It is God breathed... penned by men. Not simply recorded history as men wrote what they felt.

Click to expand...

Yes, in the beginning was the word, and the word became flesh, and made his dwelling among us. I.e, Jesus. Jesus is not the Bible, the Bible is not Jesus. I’m sure there’s a lot more to it but among other things what is meant is that Jesus in his words and actions is a direct expression of God, is God, and is also in some sense the means by which God exerted creative agency through expression of his Word ‘in the beginning’. I don’t claim to have anything like a full understanding of what that means, but thinking it means ‘Jesus is the bible’ or something like that is just getting terminology mixed up.

JacksBratt said:

Can you show me where, in the scriptures, that this belief is relevant and affects the power of the truth of the canon?

Click to expand...

It doesn’t , I mean it’s irrelevant to the actual meaning of the text. If someone says to you ‘meditate on this in your heart’ it’s not relevant to what the speaker means whether or not you take that to be a literal or figurative way of speaking, unless that person is asking you to test a hypothesis on where thinking takes place, which I don’t think is the purpose of passages of that sort in the bible, e.g Job 10:13

A_Thinker said:

That sounds pretty poetic ...

Click to expand...

JacksBratt said:

So does the song that children sing about the alphabet... but, still true and still teaches the truth. Being poetic does not mean absent of truth.

Click to expand...

No ... it doesn't.

But, it does mean that the language is rather metaphoric (and perhaps, not meant to be used as the basis for scientific knowledge).

Psalm 91:4

He will cover you with His pinions, And under His wings you may seek refuge; His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark.

JacksBratt said:

Again, if the air was thicker and had enough O2, there is no reason that a bird could not just fly out and away.

Click to expand...

For our planet orbital velocity is about 18,000 mph and escape velocity is about 25,000 mph. Makes for a very fast bird.

Tom Farebrother said:

Maybe I got different posts mixed up, apologies, I was thinking that the ideas you put forward go hand in hand with the FE belief.

Apart from that, this is some of the thinking I was getting at in my other post, that I don’t understand- I mean who do you think ‘they’ are, and what are they ‘grasping’ at? Based on what advanced knowledge or understanding do you think that gravity as a force balancing the gases that make up the atmosphere venting into space is ludicrous? What gives you the idea that, in general, scientists working in relevant areas are doing something other than developing testable ideas about how things work?

I don’t work in a scientific field, and I didn’t study physical sciences in higher education, but I can’t see any reason to ditch working scientific theories in favour of a lot of mumbo jumbo. Gravity for example is working on you, me, and everyone else on the earth right now and continuously. That it can’t yet be fully and comprehensively explained doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Click to expand...

I think that there is a reason that we are "grounded" and need air planes to fly.

What the FE crowd is saying is that "gravity" was invented out of necessity for having the oceans wrap around a spinning ball and keeping us from flying away.

Yes, we don't understand it.. it is like magnetism.... where does it's force come from, span distances, affect some things and not others... it exists.. but why, how,....

Without the globe.... if you look at the FE model.... then down is just down.... things that are lighter, like hot air balloons and He2 balloons rise due to buoyancy. You don't need a mysterious force.

Besides that... I am saying that it is puzzling that the atmosphere is not sucked into the perfect vacuum of space.

Just to reply about the firmanent issue. I was looking at the sky earlier and think that it includes the universe. I don't believe heaven is in the universe and I don't think any of us do. It is fairly obvious that when God created the Earth and the laws of physics to govern it that He created the universe too and set it to obey the laws that He created.

I was sent on a lovely journey this morning. I was lead to read Job 28 ( I paid especial attention to job 28:28) then psalms 104 and finally Hebrews 11:1-3 All speak of His creation in one way and another. Then on eating lunch I discovered that autoplay of Christian cartoons for my son, meant I watched a cartoon of the Garden of Eden. So blessed!

A_Thinker said:

No ... it doesn't.

But, it does mean that the language is rather metaphoric (and perhaps, not meant to be used as the basis for scientific knowledge).

Psalm 91:4

He will cover you with His pinions, And under His wings you may seek refuge; His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark.

Click to expand...

Understood. But... the bible states that:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

If some men and women in white lab coats come up with something that contradicts the Biblical truth... I'm going to go with the bible.

Why?.... because..... "let God be true and every man a liar".... and....God will make those who proclaim to be wise... to be fools"...

So, when you say "Perhaps not meant for scientific knowledge" I'll say...it is still the word of God and it is what I build my house on... not on the sand , read "words and wisdom of men".

The way the bible is written... it is pretty simple to know when it is waxing poetic and when it is telling the plain old truth.

Many want Genesis to be poetry or allegory... there is no indication or reason for it to be such.... other than the simple fact that atheistic, evolutionists have told us that it is not scientific.

JacksBratt said:

I think that there is a reason that we are "grounded" and need air planes to fly.

What the FE crowd is saying is that "gravity" was invented out of necessity for having the oceans wrap around a spinning ball and keeping us from flying away.

Yes, we don't understand it.. it is like magnetism.... where does it's force come from, span distances, affect some things and not others... it exists.. but why, how,....

Without the globe.... if you look at the FE model.... then down is just down.... things that are lighter, like hot air balloons and He2 balloons rise due to buoyancy. You don't need a mysterious force.

Besides that... I am saying that it is puzzling that the atmosphere is not sucked into the perfect vacuum of space.

Click to expand...

Everything I’ve read written by FE-ists on things like gravity being ‘invented’ by scientists basically says ‘I don’t understand this, and it doesn’t fit into what I do understand, therefore it must have been invented’. I don’t see any reason to take that seriously as a way of looking at the world.
Very little is known about anything much at all. Einstein’s analogy of standing on the beach looking out onto the sea of knowledge wasn’t just some quaint attempt at being modest, or as Jordan Peterson puts it human knowledge is a tiny island in the middle of a vast sea; the island grows incrementally, but the sea never gets any smaller. The kind of random speculation based on bits and pieces of poorly understood concepts found on FE blogs don’t really add anything to that knowledge.

JackRT said:

For our planet orbital velocity is about 18,000 mph and escape velocity is about 25,000 mph. Makes for a very fast bird.

Click to expand...

All smoke and mirrors and math equations that only mean something to a handful of people.

A bird.... can take off from the ground and fly so high that I can barely see it... What is keeping it from continuing to keep going. Only the lack of O2 and thinning air that won't allow them to fly... Nothing at all to do with velocity... nothing...

JacksBratt said:

What the FE crowd is saying is that "gravity" was invented out of necessity for having the oceans wrap around a spinning ball and keeping us from flying away.

Click to expand...

What about everything else on earth ?

NOTHING is escaping from the earth. Something (some force) is holding all things here ... close to the surface of the earth (in a sense ... holding all things together).

Science call this evident force gravity ...

Tom Farebrother said:

Everything I’ve read written by FE-ists on things like gravity being ‘invented’ by scientists basically says ‘I don’t understand this, and it doesn’t fit into what I do understand, therefore it must have been invented’. I don’t see any reason to take that seriously as a way of looking at the world.
Very little is known about anything much at all. Einstein’s analogy of standing on the beach looking out onto the sea of knowledge wasn’t just some quaint attempt at being modest, or as Jordan Peterson puts it human knowledge is a tiny island in the middle of a vast sea; the island grows incrementally, but the sea never gets any smaller. The kind of random speculation based on bits and pieces of poorly understood concepts found on FE blogs don’t really add anything to that knowledge.

Click to expand...

I get it...

However, from the FE ist point of view... gravity is not a necessary imaginary force and the Globe people needed to invent it in order to explain the problems that their world created.

Nobody understands it... the FE doesn't need it and the globe depends on it....
Is that better?

Tom Farebrother said:

Everything I’ve read written by FE-ists on things like gravity being ‘invented’ by scientists basically says ‘I don’t understand this, and it doesn’t fit into what I do understand, therefore it must have been invented’. I don’t see any reason to take that seriously as a way of looking at the world.
Very little is known about anything much at all. Einstein’s analogy of standing on the beach looking out onto the sea of knowledge wasn’t just some quaint attempt at being modest, or as Jordan Peterson puts it human knowledge is a tiny island in the middle of a vast sea; the island grows incrementally, but the sea never gets any smaller. The kind of random speculation based on bits and pieces of poorly understood concepts found on FE blogs don’t really add anything to that knowledge.

Click to expand...

Someone with an open mind sees something happening in the natural world and thinks deeply about it. After long thought she comes up with a "I think it might have happened like this." This is what is called an hypothesis --- it might also be called an "educated guess". This forms the basis for further observation and experiment. After time the hypothesis looks better and better and begins to be regarded as a theory but not quite. A good theory must be falsifiable. So after some further thought about her theory she uses it to make a prediction about something that has never been observed before. This will be the basis of a brand new experiment. If the prediction is falsified, the theory will either have to be modified or rejected outright. This has happened many times in science. If the prediction is confirmed by the experiment then we now have a solid theory. This does not mean that it is set in stone because this process of prediction, experiment and confirmation will continue. A theory can never be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt because in science it is impossible to know absolutely everything about anything. However a theory can be disproven because there always remains the possibility that at some point in time something will be observed that will negate the theory. So, in short, in science theory is as good as it gets.

A_Thinker said:

What about everything else on earth ?

NOTHING is escaping from the earth. Something (some force) is holding all things here ... close to the surface of the earth (in a sense ... holding all things together).

Science call this evident force gravity ...

Click to expand...

Being that I am not a FE'er... I can still understand their point of view...
Gravity is not understood... the FE doesn't need it and the globe depends on it.

If the earth is a ball... then why would gravity not just be GOD....

JacksBratt said:

I get it...

However, from the FE ist point of view... gravity is not a necessary imaginary force and the Globe people needed to invent it in order to explain the problems that their world created.

Nobody understands it... the FE doesn't need it and the globe depends on it....
Is that better?

Click to expand...

Maybe. It leads me to think that what people choose to believe is often based on personal experience. My grandad was trained as a scientist, then as a theologian. None of my science teachers at school were involved in some sort of conspiracy to prove that God doesn’t exist. Those things and others like them probably play some part in why I can’t take FE-ers and their notions about NASA conspiracies, faked moon landings etc ad infinitum seriously.