dreadnought

Lip service isn't really service.
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Just close your eyes and insist sin hurts the sinner most. One asks why people do it at all if this is true. You know, the Bible writers knew sin was pleasurable and says so. Even profits a man. Only you seem to think it unpleasant and hurts. This is probably a part of the self first theology I suspect. Everything revolves around the self.
You need to learn this: When you sin against someone, you will suffer more than the victim of your sin.
 
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justbyfaith

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You know, the Bible writers knew sin was pleasurable and says so. Even profits a man. Only you seem to think it unpleasant and hurts. This is probably a part of the self first theology I suspect. Everything revolves around the self.

The idea that sin profits a man seems to me to be the idea that revolves around self. In answer to that idea, see Job 33:27-28.

The saved cannot resist the pull of the flesh either. Just look at all the fat people at church not to mention those who left their spouse for a new one.

I said, that resisting the pull of the flesh does not define one as saved. To which you responded with the above. If you look closer, they are the same statements. But I would say that those people in church who are fat aren't fat because they can's resist the pull of the flesh but because they have a different metabolism than skinnier people. And those who leave their spouses for a new one, that isn't Christian behaviour; if they do that they are either backsliding or else they are not genuinely saved.

I think a Christian is one who follows Jesus, not one who has experienced at some point in their lives forgiveness of past sins. Future sins are never forgiven. There is at least one sin that cannot be forgiven at all no matter when it is done. So "all sins are forgiven" is not true even if past.

Future sins are indeed forgiven. If all sins are not forgiven, then all have the destination of hell (then the lake of fire). If all future sins are not forgiven as well as sins of the past, then I have to walk in sinless perfection for the rest of my life in order to keep my salvation. I refuse to believe that; ever since I came to a revelation because of Psalms 51:3 and Luke 18:9-14.

No, I did not say that. I challenged you to be open. Just consider what I say, that is all.
It is better that others say your life has improved than you. I mean you have a real interest that this is so. Others are likely to be more truthful. "Let another praise you."

It doesn't matter to you what others say because my restoration is so recent. If I said to you that a bunch of people are noticing the difference in my life, you would just say, "Give it time; you will fall eventually: salvation cannot last." At least, this is what I perceive of your opinions based on what you have said to me so far.

You have made a change in what is written. A woman expressing her view, who might actually be a prophetess, is not teaching nor usurping authority over a male. The male who refuses to listen to the prophetess of God, is not responding according to scripture.

Notice Paul said that he personally does not allow this. This might be because females were unlearned in those days and could not read or write. If he had said, I do not permit illiterate to teach nor exercise authority over those who can (the men) it would represent the situation of the day.

In 1 Timothy 2:12-14, Paul cites the order of creation as the reason why he doesn't let a woman teach or usurp authority over a man; and the fact that Adam wasn't deceived but Eve was. Men by nature are more analytical and less likely to be deceived for emotional reasons. There may be exceptions to this rule; but it is a part of the God-made differences between men and women. Men are to be the doctrinal protectors over the women.

Justbyfaith,

I can only implore you to stop listening to the teaching that has gotten a hold of you. The verses you quote do not say what your teacher says they do. Not at all.

Which verses?

Your comments on not trusting in obedience must come from someone who has not obeyed the living God on a matter that was difficult. It comes from someone who does not understand obedience as Jesus knew it. I say this because no one who has obeyed God trusts in their obedience. It is a foreign concept. Same as the man or woman who says "I do" does not trust in that vow to keep their marriage alive , as real as that vow was. The single person might think they trust in the vow. But the marriage person knows different.

I am married and I believe there is a certain extent to which the vow has held us together at times when things were not going very well.

The relationship that comes from obeying God is so different than merely trusting a scripture, it is beyond description. When a believer has heard "well done" from the living God, the reason for devotion changes. But it cannot be explained to one who trusts in a theology or a feeling they have.

I don't have any arguments with this.

Do those around you all testify that you are completely loving and now don’t sin? That is actually the only test that matters.

Do you believe that the only salvation lies in us being sinlessly perfect? Because it seems that that idea is inherent in your statement.

The Bible says we will be judged for the deeds done in the body not the faith we had that our deeds were good. No one is judged by their faith. If The new creature behaves such that no one sees any difference, they are not new, no matter what they claim. So if you are selfish or thoughtless towards your wife at times, do you still have eternal life abiding in you? What if a murderer was a believer? You think all future sins are forgiven. Do you see the problem?

So my salvation lies in my being perfect towards my wife? I must have an exemplary performance in order to be saved? This appears to me to be salvation by works.

Now I think well of you and have never thought that you want a license to sin. But can you see if one gets tempted this theology helps them?

When Paul wrote Romans 5, his theology would have helped them too if he had never gotten around to writing Romans 6. The logical conclusion of what he wrote was that we should continue in sin that grace may abound. He had to write a whole chapter to refute that line of reasoning which would have resulted from what he had said so far. My point being that sometimes in the preaching of the gospel, a major aspect of what we speak has to do with extravagant grace that is scandalous to say the least. "Where sin abounded, grace superabounded (much more)."

No one says anyone is destined to backslide same as no one is destined to live a consistent walk. No one is predestined. We can all walk away and be lost.

I beg to differ, see Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 1:11, and 1 Peter 1:2 (there may be more scripture that also says this).

Don't blame the audience if wasn’t close to being funny.

I think it was hilarious (probably because I am a man).

And you in fact claim by faith that your behavior bears the mark of the HS and don’t want to ask those who actually see you if it does. Your wife’s statement was only recently were you unselfish. So this is very new. That does not prove your point that you don’t sin anymore.

My point isn't that I don't sin anymore; my point is that my new disposition as a new creature in Christ is against sinning. God knows whether I still sin; but I am unaware of it if I do, even as Paul also said in 1 Corinthians 4:4. A major point to my prayer of salvation was to understand that my sin is ever before me (Psalms 51:3) and therefore my only salvation rests in forgiveness of sins through the blood of Jesus. Now if that is dependent on my not sinning in the future, then I am not forgiven and neither is anyone else, because our sin is ever before all of us. And therefore if I am not forgiven also of future sins, I am not forgiven and will go to hell because my sin is ever before me.

No one said the above. I assure you that Moses did not rise from the dead and write about his own burial.
Does it comfort you when you praise your own character to think Moses did? Is this a motive? I can’t see why it matters otherwise.

The statement is in Numbers 12:3, and Numbers does not end for another 23 chapters. Moses does not even die in the book of Numbers. Did Jesus not praise His own character in Matthew 11:28-30? It doesn't matter to me very much except for the fact that I am a stickler for the concise truth of any matter.

I assure you that He does not speak all the time through every believer. Some are very proud and selfish at times. Think of Peter who was rebuked by both Jesus and Paul for his behaviour. And few of us even come close to his level of gifts and power of the Holy Spirit. Does not mean every utterance has the power of God behind it.

I find this whole thing really lacking any love for God or man, just a love of power and being able to tell the guy in the mirror how perfect/good/sinless he/she is. Not saying that’s you, btw.
Him yes. You no.
God? yes. You? no. You are not Him. This is more a love of power than a love of God, isn’t it? I mean we can make many bold statements if He so directs. But we can’t decide to stand in front of the bank and speak 1000s into our account.

The point that was made was that He dwells in me, so if He declares something through me as the result of a spiritual gift (such as prophecy), then what I say will come to pass because in all reality it is not me declaring it but Him, although the words are coming out of my mouth.

Jesus’ task was finished. Doesn’t mean every task we can think of was finished. Paul also said he was finished too.
It applies to no one at all. Sins repented of can be forgiven.
You seem to claim you do. Please ask
those who work with you and don’t particularly like you if that is what you actually do.

I know that there were sins that were in my life that no one else knew about that are now gone; and that is noticeable only to me. People at my work (if I were working a regular job) would have no knowledge of them because they were done in secret. It does not make a difference to you that my wife sees a difference in me, why would it make a difference to you if my coworkers saw a difference? You would simply say, "It's too soon to know whether the change is genuine; wait another five years and then come back to me and tell me your life is changed." By that time I will have settled into my new holiness and will very likely have forgotten what it was like before I was restored. I can see where it is important to you that a change be something that has been going on for some time before one testifies to it; so if the Lord hasn't come back in five years why don't you ask me then if the change is still genuine? Because it took a long time to get the victory again in such a way that I know that it will last because it is based on sound doctrine in my heart and not just an emotional experience; and therefore I believe it would take a long time of onslaught from the enemy to destroy that, if such a thing could succeed at all.

None of those scriptures promise no judgement for the one who refuses to submit to the law of loving God and man. We are under the law to love God and man and that has not changed. And that whether we feel like it or not at the moment.

If we are still under the law, then sin will have dominion over us (Romans 6:14). Also, if we are under the law (of the works of the law) then we are required to keep everything written in the law, and we are cursed because we do not and cannot do that. See Galatians 3:10-13, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48. The law is an institution of condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:6-16). It shows us that we are sinners in need of a Saviour (Galatians 3:24-25, Romans 3:19-20, Psalms 19:7). It is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

I haven’t noticed any love of God, frankly speaking. What I notice is a love of how this doctrine makes you feel. There is a love of being to tell the self that it is now good. There is a love of telling the self it is sinless. There is a love of what God gave to the self. When one matures, one becomes a true son or daughter of God.

It is somewhat difficult to show the love of God in deed and in truth over the internet, except in that we attempt to minister sound doctrine in the hopes that those who hear will be saved and edified. And those situations outside the internet where I have shown the love of God in deed and in truth are not things that I will talk about because I believe it is a sin to boast in anything except the fact that I know and understand the Lord.

If one wants to, your theology comforts them IN their sin. They can do wrong to others and be at peace knowing it’s all forgiven already. This is allowing any kind of sin for any believer as it is already forgiven. I can see why this makes a person happy. Does not make those who live and work with them happy though. Again I don’t think you want to do this.

No; because my theology proclaims forgiveness only for the one who is born again (a new creature in Christ...2 Corinthians 5:17). And the point of it is that we are all human and we are bound to sin in the future; therefore if we are not forgiven of future sins as born again believers we are not forgiven at all: as we lay dying we may be compelled to go through a list of everything we think we've done wrong so that we can confess it before God; and even then we could miss something. And since in your theology the behaviour of being saved cannot last, how is it that you expect us to be forgiven? It seems to me that in your theology there is no forgiveness; because according to Psalms 51:3 our sin is ever before us and yet in your eyes there is not forgiveness of future sins; only what is past. So then, the good news would be that I can be forgiven of past sin and then I must be sinlessly perfect from that point forward or at least be sure to know what my sins are every time I commit one so that I can confess and repent (and when I do that, I just got saved all over again; and also lost my salvation the moment I sinned). In your theology repentance is also necessary for salvation; and yet from what you have already said to me repentance cannot last in your opinion because we will sin; for you have expressed displeasure at the concept of entire sanctification. And yet it seems to me from what you have said that to be entirely sanctified is the only way to truly be saved, because we are not forgiven of future sin in your view; and therefore in being forgiven of past sins we would have to from then on not sin anymore in order to stay saved. If we did sin again it seems to me that we would have to get saved all over again so we can be forgiven of those sins that are now past. And that isn't right if you have an accurate view of Hebrews 6:1-8.

So time to move on from forgiveness of sin to doing something.
Bet you did not think that one up. The problem is it focuses, again, on the self. There is no love of God in this at all.

I disagree. Yes, love isn't mentioned in what I spoke there, but that is because that wasn't the subject. When someone has a genuine faith in Jesus and knows that he is forgiven much, he will love Jesus (and others) much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5). So then, in the train, love trails behind faith because it is the result of faith. And obedience trails behind love because it is the result of love.

In the teaching at hand, yes, I didn't think it up; it was a part of a new believer's handbook that we were studying at our church (when I lived in Moreno Valley); and in the handbook it didn't include love or obedience in the train; which doesn't mean that love and obedience are not integral cars on the train in a more concise teaching on the matter.

No one who lives to obey God does.

Actually, there are cults out there that teach that salvation is by works, contrary to Ephesians 2:9 and context, as well as Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6, and Titus 3:4-7.

People who teach and believe this do put their trust in their own obedience to save themselves; and in doing so they are not putting their faith and trust in Christ.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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The idea that sin profits a man seems to me to be the idea that revolves around self. In answer to that idea, see Job 33:27-28.
Sin profits a man in this life. It’s not just an idea.
I said, that resisting the pull of the flesh does not define one as saved. To which you responded with the above. If you look closer, they are the same statements. But I would say that those people in church who are fat aren't fat because they can's resist the pull of the flesh but because they have a different metabolism than skinnier people. And those who leave their spouses for a new one, that isn't Christian behaviour; if they do that they are either backsliding or else they are not genuinely saved.
The temptation to excuse sin is not good. People are way too fat because they eat too much. It would be better to say the truth. Those who break their marriage do not say they are not saved nor backsliding. They say God understands.
Future sins are indeed forgiven. If all sins are not forgiven, then all have the destination of hell (then the lake of fire). If all future sins are not forgiven as well as sins of the past, then I have to walk in sinless perfection for the rest of my life in order to keep my salvation. I refuse to believe that; ever since I came to a revelation because of Psalms 51:3 and Luke 18:9-14.
Future sins are not forgiven. Would you tell your wife any future adultery she does is forgiven? What you don’t see is this.

1. If we sin, we need to confess and repent and he is faithful and just and will forgive us.
2. The whole point is relationship with God, not assurance of Heaven. John 17:3
3. Salvation is so that we become like Jesus.
4. Your theology is self focused. That is, it’s main point is to assure the self that Heaven is locked in no matter how you behave and that God pleasing behavior can be obtained by faith no matter how you actually treat others.
It doesn't matter to you what others say because my restoration is so recent. If I said to you that a bunch of people are noticing the difference in my life, you would just say, "Give it time; you will fall eventually: salvation cannot last." At least, this is what I perceive of your opinions based on what you have said to me so far.
I never said that. I said your state of selflessness and euphoria over this won’t last. It will be tested and I would not have you expect perfection out of you. The christian life is not carried by joy.
In 1 Timothy 2:12-14, Paul cites the order of creation as the reason why he doesn't let a woman teach or usurp authority over a man; and the fact that Adam wasn't deceived but Eve was. Men by nature are more analytical and less likely to be deceived for emotional reasons. There may be exceptions to this rule; but it is a part of the God-made differences between men and women. Men are to be the doctrinal protectors over the women.
Does your wife agree that she is more easily deceived for emotional reasons?
I am married and I believe there is a certain extent to which the vow has held us together at times when things were not going very well.
Good but it’s really not the glue.
Do you believe that the only salvation lies in us being sinlessly perfect? Because it seems that that idea is inherent in your statement.
I believe eternal life is in knowing Him, the one true God. When i fail I ask forgiveness. I don’t comfort myself with “it’s already forgiven so no need to humble myself.”
So my salvation lies in my being perfect towards my wife? I must have an exemplary performance in order to be saved? This appears to me to be salvation by works.
No, salvation is by relationship. When Jesus tells the ones who felt deeply assured of their salvation based on their theology, go away, he says it’s because he doesn’t know them. No relationship. They called on the name of the Lord but we’re not saved.
When Paul wrote Romans 5, his theology would have helped them too if he had never gotten around to writing Romans 6. The logical conclusion of what he wrote was that we should continue in sin that grace may abound. He had to write a whole chapter to refute that line of reasoning which would have resulted from what he had said so far. My point being that sometimes in the preaching of the gospel, a major aspect of what we speak has to do with extravagant grace that is scandalous to say the least. "Where sin abounded, grace superabounded (much more)."
Then there are the grace changers who theologically take the extravagant grace and turn it into a license to sin.
I beg to differ, see Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 1:11, and 1 Peter 1:2 (there may be more scripture that also says this).
None of those verses say we cannot fall away. Jesus said that at a certain point MANY will fall away from the faith. None of those verses you quote contradict Jesus’ words. I know it’s scary but it true. There are those who fall away from the faith and are lost. Jesus warned us to take care it doesn’t happen to us.
I think it was hilarious (probably because I am a man).
Too close to the “name that virtue, claim that virtue” doctrine you possess to be funny.
My point isn't that I don't sin anymore; my point is that my new disposition as a new creature in Christ is against sinning. God knows whether I still sin; but I am unaware of it if I do, even as Paul also said in 1 Corinthians 4:4. A major point to my prayer of salvation was to understand that my sin is ever before me (Psalms 51:3) and therefore my only salvation rests in forgiveness of sins through the blood of Jesus. Now if that is dependent on my not sinning in the future, then I am not forgiven and neither is anyone else, because our sin is ever before all of us. And therefore if I am not forgiven also of future sins, I am not forgiven and will go to hell because my sin is ever before me.
Why don’t you just confess and repent of your future sins before God and man as necessary?? That’s the Biblical way.
Did Jesus not praise His own character in Matthew 11:28-30? It doesn't matter to me very much except for the fact that I am a stickler for the concise truth of any matter.
When YOU are like JESUS, you can praise yourself. The test is asking your ENEMIES if they see any sin in you. Jesus did. Have you? Until you do and they have no wrong doing on your part to report, you cannot.
The point that was made was that He dwells in me, so if He declares something through me as the result of a spiritual gift (such as prophecy), then what I say will come to pass because in all reality it is not me declaring it but Him, although the words are coming out of my mouth.
I assure you, not every word you say is from Him or He even agrees with. The doctrine of future sins being forgiven He hates, for example. It is a very prideful doctrine assuring forgive without any confession or repentance at all.
I know that there were sins that were in my life that no one else knew about that are now gone; and that is noticeable only to me. People at my work (if I were working a regular job) would have no knowledge of them because they were done in secret. It does not make a difference to you that my wife sees a difference in me, why would it make a difference to you if my coworkers saw a difference? You would simply say, "It's too soon to know whether the change is genuine; wait another five years and then come back to me and tell me your life is changed." By that time I will have settled into my new holiness and will very likely have forgotten what it was like before I was restored. I can see where it is important to you that a change be something that has been going on for some time before one testifies to it; so if the Lord hasn't come back in five years why don't you ask me then if the change is still genuine? Because it took a long time to get the victory again in such a way that I know that it will last because it is based on sound doctrine in my heart and not just an emotional experience; and therefore I believe it would take a long time of onslaught from the enemy to destroy that, if such a thing could succeed at all.
The secret sins don’t bother any person. We’re talking about the sins that hurt God AND man. Are you completely free from all of these? The desire for all future sins to be already forgiven appeals totally to selfishness, for example. Means the person cares nothing about how their future sins wound others. They only care that God forgives them. How selfish!!
If we are still under the law, then sin will have dominion over us (Romans 6:14). Also, if we are under the law (of the works of the law) then we are required to keep everything written in the law, and we are cursed because we do not and cannot do that. See Galatians 3:10-13, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48. The law is an institution of condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:6-16). It shows us that we are sinners in need of a Saviour (Galatians 3:24-25, Romans 3:19-20, Psalms 19:7). It is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.
So are you free from the law to love God and man? You have to do either?
It is somewhat difficult to show the love of God in deed and in truth over the internet, except in that we attempt to minister sound doctrine in the hopes that those who hear will be saved and edified. And those situations outside the internet where I have shown the love of God in deed and in truth are not things that I will talk about because I believe it is a sin to boast in anything except the fact that I know and understand the Lord.
Very wise. But it’s actually easier to see if a person loves God or not in what they say. Atheists do good deeds too and look the same as believers at that point.
No; because my theology proclaims forgiveness only for the one who is born again (a new creature in Christ...2 Corinthians 5:17).
How do you measure this? They say so? They are different (works) ?
And the point of it is that we are all human and we are bound to sin in the future; therefore if we are not forgiven of future sins as born again believers we are not forgiven at all:
No, you just need to do as John wrote and humble yourself asking forgiveness. Your theology saves the pride leaving it fully in tact
It seems to me that in your theology there is no forgiveness; because according to Psalms 51:3 our sin is ever before us and yet in your eyes there is not forgiveness of future sins; only what is past.
In my theology, there’s a living walk with God whereby I ask forgiveness as needed. I no more need assurance it’s already done than i need my husband to already forgive all future wrongs. I talk with God. I don’t extract assurances out of Him for ways I know he acts because of his character. I do not need a promise He has already forgiven me. I know He will if I repent and ask. You avoid the repent and ask part. It is not good for you not those around you outside of the fact that he no where promises forgiveness of future sins before committed. All that you quote is man theology designed to appeal to the pride. Not good.
So then, the good news would be that I can be forgiven of past sin and then I must be sinlessly perfect from that point forward or at least be sure to know what my sins are every time I commit one so that I can confess and repent (and when I do that, I just got saved all over again; and also lost my salvation the moment I sinned).
In my theology I talk to God and he talks to me. Conviction of sin He does really well. I have no fear. I trust Him, not theology.
In your theology repentance is also necessary for salvation; and yet from what you have already said to me repentance cannot last in your opinion because we will sin;
Forgiveness for past sin lasts.
for you have expressed displeasure at the concept of entire sanctification.
Only claiming by faith one is fully sanctified no matter how one actually behaves.
And yet it seems to me from what you have said that to be entirely sanctified is the only way to truly be saved, because we are not forgiven of future sin in your view; and therefore in being forgiven of past sins we would have to from then on not sin anymore in order to stay saved. If we did sin again it seems to me that we would have to get saved all over again so we can be forgiven of those sins that are now past. And that isn't right if you have an accurate view of Hebrews 6:1-8.
What you are missing is a living relationship with God. This is absent in your theology.
People who teach and believe this do put their trust in their own obedience to save themselves; and in doing so they are not putting their faith and trust in Christ.
I’m talking obeying the living God, not man theology or man rules. No one who obeys the living Gods instructions to them comes close to this. The experience prevents it. Read the times the men in the Bible obeyed God. I doubt even Noah said he saved himself although he built the boat by hand.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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You need to learn this: When you sin against someone, you will suffer more than the victim of your sin.
I will never ever adopt such a self-interest world view. Never. I have too much of the love of God and man to think solely how my actions affect me. I’m more concerned about my sin hurts others then how it hurts me. The reader can decide which world view reflects Christ.
 
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justbyfaith

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Sin profits a man in this life. It’s not just an idea.

Your response indicates to me that you didn't even look up the passage. Interesting.

The temptation to excuse sin is not good. People are way too fat because they eat too much. It would be better to say the truth. Those who break their marriage do not say they are not saved nor backsliding. They say God understands.
Future sins are not forgiven. Would you tell your wife any future adultery she does is forgiven? What you don’t see is this.

1. If we sin, we need to confess and repent and he is faithful and just and will forgive us.
2. The whole point is relationship with God, not assurance of Heaven. John 17:3
3. Salvation is so that we become like Jesus.
4. Your theology is self focused. That is, it’s main point is to assure the self that Heaven is locked in no matter how you behave and that God pleasing behavior can be obtained by faith no matter how you actually treat others.

1 John 1:9 has to do with fellowship, not position. Becoming like Jesus is one of the benefits of salvation; but what salvation is, is that it is forgiveness of sins through faith in the blood of Christ. And you seem to me to be opposing yourself here; because you are rejecting this truth.

I never said that. I said your state of selflessness and euphoria over this won’t last. It will be tested and I would not have you expect perfection out of you. The christian life is not carried by joy.

My restoration has nothing to do with euphoria or joy. It has to do with repentance. Before, I was truly self-focused. I was focused on my own behaviour and how I somehow needed to measure up to God's perfection in order to be pleasing to Him (to have righteousness). But the Lord showed me that being pleasing to Him doesn't have to do with my performance, but with faith in Him (Romans 4:3-5, Romans 4:11).

Does your wife agree that she is more easily deceived for emotional reasons?

I don't see how she has to in order for that scripture to be true.

Good but it’s really not the glue.
I believe eternal life is in knowing Him, the one true God. When i fail I ask forgiveness. I don’t comfort myself with “it’s already forgiven so no need to humble myself.”

And of course that is not what I am saying either. For in order to have fellowship with the Lord, we do need to humble ourselves and seek His face. But what if there is some sin that you have committed that you are unaware of? Are you forgiven even though you haven't confessed it? Or do you need to wrack your brain until you have discovered every sin that you have ever committed? What if you come down with memory problems before all your sin is confessed? In such a case, there might be sins that you haven't confessed that you are unable to remember. Is forgiveness impossible because you can't remember them? In my view, our position is secure in Christ, and we shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24). That word "shall" indicates it is an absolute promise.

No, salvation is by relationship. When Jesus tells the ones who felt deeply assured of their salvation based on their theology, go away, he says it’s because he doesn’t know them. No relationship. They called on the name of the Lord but were not saved.

That is impossible scripturally, because Romans 10:13 promises that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Then there are the grace changers who theologically take the extravagant grace and turn it into a license to sin.

The point being that grace is extravagant and indeed also scandalous. It would be a license to sin if being born again were not in the equation. Because being born again changes the heart so that the person doesn't want to sin: therefore if I don't want to sin, why would I use grace as a license to do so? I am dead to sin; how can I live any longer therein?

None of those verses say we cannot fall away. Jesus said that at a certain point MANY will fall away from the faith. None of those verses you quote contradict Jesus’ words. I know it’s scary but it true. There are those who fall away from the faith and are lost. Jesus warned us to take care it doesn’t happen to us.

Which was not in the course of our original discussion. Those verses say that certain people are predestinated to salvation. And I conclude that the elect cannot fall away; if they backslide they will return like the prodigal.

I'm unaware of any place where Jesus said that many shall fall away from the faith. Do you have a scripture reference?


Too close to the “name that virtue, claim that virtue” doctrine you possess to be funny.

The scripture in question certainly wasn't naming a virtue. In fact, it was naming a sin.

Why don’t you just confess and repent of your future sins before God and man as necessary?? That’s the Biblical way.

I don't disregard 1 John 1:9 as regards my fellowship with the Lord. However, positionally, I am secure in Him. John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5.

When YOU are like JESUS, you can praise yourself.

Or, when I am like Moses (to bring it back to the original topic on this point of the discussion). The point being that it was not a sin for Moses to commend himself, since Jesus, who was without sin, also later commended Himself.

The test is asking your ENEMIES if they see any sin in you. Jesus did. Have you? Until you do and they have no wrong doing on your part to report, you cannot.

I don't need to ask my enemies if they see any sin in me; I'm sure they would be the quickest ones to point it out.

I assure you, not every word you say is from Him or He even agrees with.

I didn't say it was; I said that when it is, it will surely come to pass.

The doctrine of future sins being forgiven He hates, for example. It is a very prideful doctrine assuring forgive without any confession or repentance at all.

He certainly does not hate this doctrine because He has given it to us in His word. And there is a confession involved: a full-on confession that I am a sinner period, that covers all of my sin. In your way, you have to be constantly searching your heart for more sin and there is never any assurance that you are saved because there may be some sin that you have missed. But when the apostles ministered to the Thessalonicans, it was with much assurance (1 Thessalonians 1:5 (kjv)). And also, in the way that I am speaking of, there is a confession of the Lord Jesus (Romans 10:9-10). And as He reveals my sin to me, I simply make course corrections but I do not need to confess my sin all over again (to be saved); because I have confessed my sin once and for all in that I have confessed that I am a sinner period.

The secret sins don’t bother any person. We’re talking about the sins that hurt God AND man. Are you completely free from all of these? The desire for all future sins to be already forgiven appeals totally to selfishness, for example.

It's not something I have ever necessarily desired; it is something that I have. And secret sins are usually the last to go, because people are usually more concerned about what other people think than what God thinks.

Means the person cares nothing about how their future sins wound others. They only care that God forgives them. How selfish!!

How judgmental! (see Matthew 7:1-6, Luke 6:37, Romans 2:1-2, James 4:11-12). But really, the understanding that one is forgiven of future sins only belongs to the one who has been trained by the schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25). And also, it only belongs to those who have faith in Christ, who have been transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 12:1-2).

So are you free from the law to love God and man? You have to do either?

I already spoke of this (and also gave scriptural backup). There is no longer any condemnation from the outside, as coming from stone tablets; but there is a governing from the inside, as the law is written on the heart.

Very wise. But it’s actually easier to see if a person loves God or not in what they say. Atheists do good deeds too and look the same as believers at that point.

Not really.

How do you measure this? They say so? They are different (works) ?

God measures it by looking at the faith that is invisible and in the heart. Man measures it by what he sees a person do. Man can be wrong; but God can't be wrong.

No, you just need to do as John wrote and humble yourself asking forgiveness.

As though I haven't done this.

Your theology saves the pride leaving it fully in tact.

My only pride comes from knowing that I am completely humble. :wave:

In my theology, there’s a living walk with God whereby I ask forgiveness as needed. I no more need assurance it’s already done than I need my husband to already forgive all future wrongs. I talk with God. I don’t extract assurances out of Him for ways I know he acts because of his character. I do not need a promise He has already forgiven me. I know He will if I repent and ask. You avoid the repent and ask part. It is not good for you not those around you outside of the fact that he no where promises forgiveness of future sins before committed. All that you quote is man theology designed to appeal to the pride. Not good.

In my marriage, most sins are already forgiven that my wife may commit in the future (in the case of adultery, I would forgive her but not the male perpetrator). The fact that I love her and that it is a relationship means that positionally, she is my wife and that there is nothing she can do that is not already forgiven from the perspective of my love for her. When it comes to fellowship or relationship, there may be a rift in the relationship because of some sins. But she would still be my wife; and the relationship means that we would work through it.

In my theology I talk to God and he talks to me. Conviction of sin He does really well. I have no fear. I trust Him, not theology.
Forgiveness for past sin lasts.

What about those sins that you are unaware of that you haven't yet confessed? Are you saying that you are absolutely sure that you have confessed every sin that you have ever committed?

Only claiming by faith one is fully sanctified no matter how one actually behaves.
What you are missing is a living relationship with God. This is absent in your theology.

Again, judgmental. I know that I do have a living relationship with God. It is better than it has ever been. By the which will we are sanctified by the offering of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. It is based on the one offering; otherwise, we would have to keep looking at ourselves to determine whether this verse is true in our lives or not. You talk about being self-focused. I see much of that in your theology, not in mine.

I’m talking obeying the living God, not man theology or man rules. No one who obeys the living Gods instructions to them comes close to this. The experience prevents it. Read the times the men in the Bible obeyed God. I doubt even Noah said he saved himself although he built the boat by hand.

And I'm talking about certain cults (like the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons) who teach their parishioners that the doing of good works is what will ultimately save them. These people do obey God's instructions, but for the wrong reasons.

If your heart is right, then the good works that you do are not in order to obtain ultimate salvation; rather they stem from the salvation that is already in you. Because you are thankful for your salvation and love the Lord as the result. Those who are forgiven much, also love much; but to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little (Luke 7:36-50).

I obey the Lord because I am forgiven much and therefore I love Him much. And while there is joy in my heart, my obedience is not based on that joy; it is based on the love that produces that joy (see Galatians 5:22-23). Since being delivered of secret sin, my joy level has not increased very greatly; but I know that God has done a work in me through the understanding that I am not under the law, am dead to the law, and am delivered from the law (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, Romans 7:6); through the understanding that I am forgiven and the Lord will not impute sin to me (Romans 4:6-8, Romans 4:15, 1 John 3:4, Romans 5:13).

This does not mean that I am not at all motivated to do what is righteous. My motivation towards righteousness comes from my new nature, not the attempt to earn salvation before God, nor a fear of being rejected by God because of sinning.

And I find that I have more victory now than I did when I obeyed God out of fear. Now I know that you will not be able to take my word for that; but that rather, you require that I go and find one of my enemies so that they can come to this website and tell everyone how they see a difference in my life. I say to you that even though they may see the difference in my life, they would never testify to it for my sake; and if you don't understand why, then you don't understand the nature of enmity.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Your response indicates to me that you didn't even look up the passage. Interesting.
Did you read what I wrote? Do you think the Bible is the only source of knowledge in the world? Do you not see that if a man say, steals millions he will have an easy and comfortable life? He will likely be popular as the rich are. Do you think those who wrote the Bible don't know this? It is obvious. Steal a lot and you will have more money than if you do not. Why is this something you do not believe? Might not make a better life but certainly profitable. The man might lose his soul but that does not mean stealing does not bring material profit.
1 John 1:9 has to do with fellowship, not position. Becoming like Jesus is one of the benefits of salvation; but what salvation is, is that it is forgiveness of sins through faith in the blood of Christ. And you seem to me to be opposing yourself here; because you are rejecting this truth.
If there is no fellowship with Jesus, there is no salvation. You seem to think that all Jesus died for was that people get to go to Heaven.
My restoration has nothing to do with euphoria or joy. It has to do with repentance. Before, I was truly self-focused. I was focused on my own behaviour and how I somehow needed to measure up to God's perfection in order to be pleasing to Him (to have righteousness). But the Lord showed me that being pleasing to Him doesn't have to do with my performance, but with faith in Him (Romans 4:3-5, Romans 4:11).
This is correct. I am very glad you see it. One day that faith in Him will be called upon as you are asked to obey Him in something where it is difficult.
I don't see how she has to in order for that scripture to be true.
Because your interretation of scripture is not the same as scripture itself. If what you think is what the writer thought, it will be true in real life. If it is just you thinking this and no one else in the world sees this to be true in real life, it is just your thinking.
And of course that is not what I am saying either. For in order to have fellowship with the Lord, we do need to humble ourselves and seek His face. But what if there is some sin that you have committed that you are unaware of?
I trust He will reveal it to me. That is his job, conviction of sin. So far he is really good at it. I have no fear.
Are you forgiven even though you haven't confessed it?
I walk in a living relationship with him. When he points it out, I confess and ask forgiveness. I do not try to do his job nor worry that he is not doing his job.
Or do you need to wrack your brain until you have discovered every sin that you have ever committed?
See above.
What if you come down with memory problems before all your sin is confessed?
He does his job really well. My job is to repent. I do not worry about him not being able to convict me of sin.
In such a case, there might be sins that you haven't confessed that you are unable to remember. Is forgiveness impossible because you can't remember them?
Again, you need to have faith in God that He will do his job in your walk with Him. I know a number of Christians where God pointed out something in their life that needed to change way down the line. He is in charge of what I need to repent of.
In my view, our position is secure in Christ, and we shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24). That word "shall" indicates it is an absolute promise.
Based solely on a man theology that does not require a man to have any relationship with God at all. Not saying that is you, but if a believer never wanted to talk to God again the rest of his life, your theology is very useful. No relationship needed. No dependency on God at all. There is simply a dependency on theology that promises something God never did.
That is impossible scripturally, because Romans 10:13 promises that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
They called "Lord lord" but were condemned. Why? Because saying the words "lord lord" are not what the author had in mind. The author himself did not merely say "lord lord" nor preach to others that they just needed to say "lord, lord." The interpretation is wrong, not the scripture.
The point being that grace is extravagant and indeed also scandalous. It would be a license to sin if being born again were not in the equation. Because being born again changes the heart so that the person doesn't want to sin: therefore if I don't want to sin, why would I use grace as a license to do so? I am dead to sin; how can I live any longer therein?
You position defines a born again person as one who never sins again cause they do not want to. Remember this next time sin. I know born again people who have committed sin and big time. Some even did what is a crime. Born again. But the temptation to sin was strong at the moment. What happened? They repented and were forgiven exactly as my view says. In your view they never were born agian which means they do not repent and be forgiven but need to be saved. They claimed they were. YOur theology is very works based. If one is born again, one is changed so one does not want to sin. If one sins, one is not born again. Works based.
Which was not in the course of our original discussion. Those verses say that certain people are predestinated to salvation. And I conclude that the elect cannot fall away; if they backslide they will return like the prodigal.
Quote the part that says this please becasue I read them all and none of them say that. Your theology has twisted it to say that. By "your" I mean the false theology that has come with the truth that you do not need to work to gain his love. No one is predestined for heave or hell or salvation.
I'm unaware of any place where Jesus said that many shall fall away from the faith. Do you have a scripture reference?
Gladly. Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other.
The scripture in question certainly wasn't naming a virtue. In fact, it was naming a sin.
YOu said you loved your wife because the Bible tells a husband to love his wife. That is naming a virtue by saying it is so.
I don't disregard 1 John 1:9 as regards my fellowship with the Lord. However, positionally, I am secure in Him. John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5.
I am sorry for you. Your theology teaches to you tell yourself that this is so along with other virtues. It is much better to be so close to God in relationship that it is so and one never need convince oneself it is so.
Or, when I am like Moses (to bring it back to the original topic on this point of the discussion). The point being that it was not a sin for Moses to commend himself, since Jesus, who was without sin, also later commended Himself.
Moses did not write that about himself. You have no evidence that he did. One can read about what Moses said and did and praising himself at that point in his life was gone.
I don't need to ask my enemies if they see any sin in me; I'm sure they would be the quickest ones to point it out.
THen you are not like Jesus or Moses and it is probably really there.
I didn't say it was; I said that when it is, it will surely come to pass.
When you experience God speaking through you, we can talk. It is not like you think it is.
He certainly does not hate this doctrine because He has given it to us in His word.
NO He did not. There is no scripture that all future sins are already forgiven.
And there is a confession involved: a full-on confession that I am a sinner period, that covers all of my sin. In your way, you have to be constantly searching your heart for more sin and there is never any assurance that you are saved because there may be some sin that you have missed. But when the apostles ministered to the Thessalonicans, it was with much assurance (1 Thessalonians 1:5 (kjv)). And also, in the way that I am speaking of, there is a confession of the Lord Jesus (Romans 10:9-10). And as He reveals my sin to me, I simply make course corrections but I do not need to confess my sin all over again (to be saved); because I have confessed my sin once and for all in that I have confessed that I am a sinner period.
Good way to be ignorant of your sin all your life and never have to humble yourself before GOd and man. Do you want grace, extravagrant grace in your life? Know how to get some? YOu have to humble yourself. This theology leaves human pride fully in tact and prevents the believer from receiving that grace in abundance. PRide is still in charge. You can believe what men have told you or you can ask God to speak. HE does not assure forgiveness for future wounding of his children. Grace and forgiveness for today...not for a lifetime so you never need come to him again.
It's not something I have ever necessarily desired; it is something that I have. And secret sins are usually the last to go, because people are usually more concerned about what other people think than what God thinks.
Nah, secrets sins are the first to go. Sins of pride are the last to go.
How judgmental! (see Matthew 7:1-6, Luke 6:37, Romans 2:1-2, James 4:11-12). But really, the understanding that one is forgiven of future sins only belongs to the one who has been trained by the schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25). And also, it only belongs to those who have faith in Christ, who have been transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 12:1-2).
Please give me the scripture that says "future" sins are forgiven. NOne of these do. And the "schoolmaster" is not Jesus or the Holy Spirit but men. MEn theology designed to make you feel really good and keep your pirde and sin fully functional.
I already spoke of this (and also gave scriptural backup). There is no longer any condemnation from the outside, as coming from stone tablets; but there is a governing from the inside, as the law is written on the heart.

Matthew 18:15If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

HOw can this be if there is no sin cause of a heart change and no condemnation from the outside? Your position is this never happens to believers. JEsus disagrees.
God measures it by looking at the faith that is invisible and in the heart. Man measures it by what he sees a person do. Man can be wrong; but God can't be wrong.
Please show me the scripture that says God measures it by looking at the faith that invisible and never the works and words that comes out of the heart.
My only pride comes from knowing that I am completely humble. :wave:
Name it claim it virtures again. Just say you are .....name that virture and you are.
What about those sins that you are unaware of that you haven't yet confessed? Are you saying that you are absolutely sure that you have confessed every sin that you have ever committed?
He is in charge of that area in my life. My job is to ask and listen and respond correctly. It is a lot better than convincing yourself of some promise God never made.
Again, judgmental. I know that I do have a living relationship with God. It is better than it has ever been. By the which will we are sanctified by the offering of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. It is based on the one offering; otherwise, we would have to keep looking at ourselves to determine whether this verse is true in our lives or not. You talk about being self-focused. I see much of that in your theology, not in mine.
You rarely talk about HIm. I talk about HIm a lot. YOu talk about how sinless or humble or other virtures you are. You talk about scriptures that promise you how (insert positive adjective) you are. YOu talk about what you get from HIm.

But to be fair, can you tell me somerthing about GOd that is disconnected from what you benefit from?
If your heart is right, then the good works that you do are not in order to obtain ultimate salvation; rather they stem from the salvation that is already in you. Because you are thankful for your salvation and love the Lord as the result. Those who are forgiven much, also love much; but to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little (Luke 7:36-50).
I think the better reason is because you love.
I obey the Lord because I am forgiven much and therefore I love Him much. And while there is joy in my heart, my obedience is not based on that joy; it is based on the love that produces that joy (see Galatians 5:22-23). Since being delivered of secret sin, my joy level has not increased very greatly; but I know that God has done a work in me through the understanding that I am not under the law, am dead to the law, and am delivered from the law (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, Romans 7:6); through the understanding that I am forgiven and the Lord will not impute sin to me (Romans 4:6-8, Romans 4:15, 1 John 3:4, Romans 5:13).

This does not mean that I am not at all motivated to do what is righteous. My motivation towards righteousness comes from my new nature, not the attempt to earn salvation before God, nor a fear of being rejected by God because of sinning.

And I find that I have more victory now than I did when I obeyed God out of fear. Now I know that you will not be able to take my word for that; but that rather, you require that I go and find one of my enemies so that they can come to this website and tell everyone how they see a difference in my life. I say to you that even though they may see the difference in my life, they would never testify to it for my sake; and if you don't understand why, then you don't understand the nature of enmity.
I understand the nature of self-deception based on false teaching.
 
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RDKirk

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Don’t you read what you write? You said that 30 years ago you used to spend time going through your day and the HS showing you where you were not what God wants but you gave it up. It was too depressing.

It was depressing as I realized how far I stand from being as perfect as Jesus was in doing precisely what I see my Father doing in all my daily activities..or even consistently even making sure what that is. I once thought I was pretty righteous; when I realized in painful detail how far off the mark I am compared to Jesus, it was depressing.

Now you just pray a “once covers all” prayer for forgiveness.

That's your lie. I never said that.

Maybe you don’t realize that asking God to search you and see if there be any wrong way in you is what you gave up.

What I strive to now is to inquire of the Lord the night before or the day before what God wants me to do the next day.

I know there is the problem that if I'd known to do this half a century ago, I would be in a very different position now--I'd be a very different person who would have had a very different life that would have been in step with the Lord long ago.

But the Holy Spirit is kind of like GPS in a certain regard. No matter how far you are off course, He knows the route to your destination from wherever you are.

A lot of people want to be more like Christ, but I'm discovering that it isn't "being" that makes a person more like Christ, it's "doing" that makes a person more like Christ. And what Christ wants each of us to be doing is our fragment of His mission: To make disciples and to love one another.

People natter on about "God's plan for my life," without realizing that God's plan for our lives begins with our roles in His Body to carry out His mission.

We first need to know what Jesus wants us to be doing for His mission, today, right now. Everything else of "God's plan for my life" stems from that.
 
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RDKirk

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No, it is the sinner, not the victim of the sin, who suffers the longest.

It is the sinner, if he remains unrepentant, who will ultimately suffer longest.

But while unrepentant, he doesn't suffer at all. Even if he runs into consequences of his sin, the unrepentant sinner is like a dog that eats something foul, vomits it, and then eats it again because the dog doesn't connect vomiting with what he'd just eaten.

As a dog returns to its vomit,
so fools repeat their folly.
 
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Oldmantook

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Simply that there is power in the name of Jesus whether it is invoked by a believer or an unbeliever.
Scripture please?? There is no such verse that an unbeliever can use Jesus' name to do the miraculous. You are making things up out of thin air just to support your belief. In fact, Scripture points to those who were not believers/followers of Jesus who tried to invoke his name to cast out demons. They were spectacularly unsuccessful and were humiliated. I suggest you reference the Sons of Sceva. Again, there is no scripture whatsoever to support your claim.

As I said before, the people in 1 Timothy 4:1 were not true believers. They are a part of the visible church and therefore are considered to be in the faith because of church attendance and certain outward behaviours; but an inward faith is absent; they were not of the true church (see 1 John 2:19).
You are certainly free to believe whatever you wish but faith in the Bible is never connected to "church attendance." Faith is always defined as genuine belief and not mere attendance. You are constructing you own definitions to suit your belief. Furthermore, the unsaved who are in the church assembly are already following deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons so how can such people depart from what they are already following?? Your explanation fails the logic test. Lastly, your reference to 1 Jn 2:19 is an example of a logical fallacy otherwise known as an overgeneralization. While it is true that SOME in the church who departed were never believers to begin with, it is not logical to conclude that ALL in the church who departed were never believers. That would be like saying since SOME chickens lay brown eggs, ALL chickens lay brown eggs. Thus your conclusion is unsupported by your premise.

Then salvation is of works, contrary to Ephesians 2:9 and context. Also: in context, Hebrews 5:9 is speaking of obedience to Melchizedec. But even if it is speaking of obedience to Jesus, as does Acts of the Apostles 5:32, the wording of these scriptures allows for the interpretation that those who have a living faith in Jesus will continue to obey God, and not that they must continue to obey God in order to maintain their salvation. And this is more consistent with the rest of what the scripture teaches.
Why do you ignore Eph 2:10? Our good works are the evidence that we are saved. Obedience demonstrates we are saved. Disobedience demonstrates that we are not saved. You believe that all who disobey were never believers but that goes against Scripture. Lastly, you state that obedience is to to Melchizedek. That is heretical but if you believe that then go at it.

And the principle in Mark 3:27 is that in order to invade a home, one must be stronger than the one dwelling in it already. If Jesus, even the Holy Spirit, is dwelling in the house of my body, He is a Strongman that must be overcome of the demons or satan if they want to enter and dwell there. And of course if demons or satan are dwelling there, then Jesus is stringer and when He comes to invade that person's life, the demons or satan have to get out.
Your interpretation of Mk 3:27 is quite novel, but unscriptural. The context of this passage is about the Jewish scribes accusing Jesus of casting out demons by Satan. Jesus corrects them by stating that if that were so, the Satan would be rising up against himself and dividing up his own house. Based on this, Jesus accuses them of blasphemy against the Spirit since they denied the power of Jesus in casting out Satan. It has nothing at all to do with a believer who departs from the faith.

The Holy Spirit was not yet given when Jesus said, "get thee bhind me, satan!" to Peter (John 7:37-39). And Judas was a devil; he was not a true believer from the beginning (John 6:70-71).
Doesn't matter if the Spirit was not yet given. It shows that Peter who already publically confessed Jesus as Messiah/Son of God was capable of heeding Satan instead of Jesus. Once again, you ignore what the text states when you cite Jn 6:70-71. I guess Jesus made a mistake when he chose Judas according to your view? Jesus said one of you is a devil because "Judas was GOING TO BETRAY Him." This contradicts your claim that Judas was not a true believer from the beginning. Judas was a true believer who IN THE FUTURE was going to betray Jesus.

I'm saying that because Satan filled their hearts, Ananias and Saphira could not have been true believers. Believers can't be demon-possessed, neither can they be possessed by satan himself.
If they were not true believers then why would God invoke the death penalty for those who weren't supposed to be obedient to God anyway?? And if they weren't true believers, why would that instill fear in the church in Acts 5:11? Fear was instilled because it taught the church a deadly lesson about the importance of obedience.

Ananias and saphira claimed to believers; and they were claiming to be highly virtuous by their actions in the story. Have you forgotten the story in question? God was saying that He was not going to tolerate hypocrisy like that in the visible church.
Your explanation is highly imaginative. Why would an unbeliever sell their own property which would have been a costly sacrifice for something they really didn't believe in? It is you who have forgotten the story - hypocrisy is God's judgement for the believer - not the unbeliever.

Okay, if you want to go there, then the literal interpretation says that those who are born again cannot sin. I would ask you, do you sin? if you do, then you are not born again according to the literal interpretation (since you seem to be adamant about taking that scripture more literally).

In answer to your questioning that of my, I believe that the answer of "I don't know is valid (see 1 Corinthians 4:4). But I know that in my own prayer of salvation, I said to God, "My sin is ever before me." (Psalms 51:3).
Of course I sin. According to John 1:8-10 we all sin (except yourself who doesn't know if you sin). Do you angry at times? Do you tell little white lies on occasion? Jealousy? Bitterness? Unforgiveness? Pride? If you claim your sin is ever before you is it just hypothetical in your mind or actual?

I suggest you open the Bible and study the difference between occasional sin which is forgiveable and the practice of sin which is not forgiveable if the believer does not turn around and repent. Get back to me when you find the answer.

It appears to me that this scripture says that some people have put away a good conscience and have made shipwreck concerning faith. Now Paul handed them over to the devil as a disciplinary action, which had the purpose of hopefully saving their spirit on the day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 5:5). Therefore I consider that anyone who has true faith but makes shipwreck concerning the faith, if they are of the elect of the Lord, when they suffer shipwreck, they become as the prodigal son and as soon as they see the conditions of what it is like in the pigpen, they will say, "I will return and come back to my Father." They may be unbelieving while in the pigpen, but this does not change their position as being children of the Most High.
If they are unbelieving while they are in the pigpen, is that the very definition of being an unbeliever? How can a believer who no longer believes still be a believer. Can a believer who then believes in Buddhism still be a believer? You of course would say he was never a believer in the first place. The story of the prodigal which you have brought up proves you wrong. In this story the father exclaims twice in the parable that the prodigal was "dead but is alive AGAIN." You have already admitted that the prodigal represents a believer who no longer believes but is still a believer." How can a believer be made ALIVE AGAIN (Lk 15:24,32)? The only was is for an unsaved person to become saved and made alive in Christ (first time). This true believer then like prodigal practices sin and become spiritually DEAD. But if like the prodigal, he repents from his sin and returns back to the father seeking forgiveness, God is gracious to forgive and welcome him back. He is then made spiritually ALIVE AGAIN. While he was in sin - he was spiritually dead - and by definition no longer a believer. Jesus' own teaching contradicts your belief.

and because what they have is not relationship but religion, when they depart from it they are not departing from salvation but from an outward form of godliness.
Logically your explanation does not make any sense as apostatize means to depart from genuine faith - not fake faith or "outward form." It is impossible for an unsaved person to apostatize. Secondly, my citation of Jesus' teaching regarding the prodigal son proves you wrong.

Yes, I believe that.
So one can initially believe but then no longer believe? Or is it impossible for someone who genuinely believes to stop believing?

Yes, I believe that also.
So sheep who disobey are still saved or no longer saved?

Yes it is conditional; but the only condition is that we have faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross. When we truly have that, we are new creatures in Christ, and everything concerning sanctification will fall into place.
Sanctification does not just "fall into place." It requires ongoing belief, repentance, obedience. Not all believers choose to continue to follow the narrow road that leads to life.

I'm afraid you're going to have to give me more specific scripture on the first question.
You claim that a believer's works are irrelevant but Jesus judges all the churches in Revelation by their works so how can our works be irrelevant?

If we are in Christ, we are a new creature; old things are passed away: behold, all things are become new (2 Corinthians 5:17). Therefore, as new creatures in Christ, it is our nature to forgive. The word of God will not return void. Therefore true believers are obedient to Jesus' commandment to forgive.
You did not answer my question. If a believer knowingly refuses to forgive someone else who has offended/hurt him, is he still forgiven by God? Yes or no?

We are justified by works before man (see Romans 4:2); not before God. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart (1 Samuel 16:7). Romans 4:1-8 shows clearly that from God's perspective, it is not works that justifies us but faith alone in Jesus Christ.
Rom 4:2 refers back to Rom 4:1. Works done in the flesh have no standing with God. Your fail to distinguish the difference between works done out of obedience to the Word and Spirit which does JUSTIFY us according to Js 2:24.

and even if he has no works, his faith in Jesus alone will save him if it is a genuine faith (of which God is the judge because He can see what is in the heart).
No, not according to James 2:17,20.
 
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dreadnought

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I will never ever adopt such a self-interest world view. Never. I have too much of the love of God and man to think solely how my actions affect me. I’m more concerned about my sin hurts others then how it hurts me. The reader can decide which world view reflects Christ.
That is the nature of the Lord's creation. You will recover if I sin against you. If you sin against me, you will suffer a good long time.
 
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To @Dorothy Mae and @Oldmantook,

I feel that it would not be a good thing for me to continue in this discussion as we will all be reduced to arguing and striving against each other's opinions, which the word of the Lord says not to do.

So I leave this discussion at his point and I leave you with this thought: Please continue to study the scriptures and be open to everything that the Holy Spirit has to say.

It took me winning the argument when I was on the side of false doctrine for me to understand the error of my ways. I once was a heavy proponent of the idea that one must be sinlessly perfect in order to be saved, in spite of scriptures that told me otherwise. Finally I realized that I was a habitual sinner even though the sin I was committing used to grab a hold of me only about once every two weeks. After twenty-eight years of sinning, falling, getting back up; sinning, falling, getting back up: I finally realized that I am a sinner! Admitting this in the general sense is the farthest thing from pride (and btw, my quip about being proud of my humility was another attempt to lighten things up, to no avail).

One day I read Psalms 51:3 and around the same time I read Luke 18:9-14. It changed my perspective completely. All of a sudden I knew that I am a sinner saved by grace and that I do not have to measure up in order to be accepted by the Lord; all of a sudden my burden was lifted and I was able to take on His burden and His yoke; which is much, much lighter. Suddenly my salvation was no longer dependent on me but I suddenly understood that the shed blood of Christ on the Cross was the sufficient payment for the penalty of my sins; and what He did on the Cross provided for His perfect life to be applied to my account, while all of my sins and imperfections were applied to His account as He took the penalty for my sin/sins.

I stand forgiven before God because of what He did for me. It is not dependent on my performance; and because of my realization of this, my performance has become much better. Because the pressure's off. Suddenly the things I do are graceful because I am a recipient of grace and they are not done under pressure.

But you can believe against these things if you would like. I know what has worked for me, so I will abide in the doctrine that has set me free.

And since the Bible teaches that the servant of the Lord must not argue or strive, I think I should discontinue talking with you guys because there is a certain hostility that I sense coming from both of you; and to continue in this discussion would only be unfruitful. It would only lead to more argument and an attempt by both sides to "get the better of my opponent". And since such an exchange might only entrench you further in what you believe (because you are fighting to convince yourselves that what you believe is true; while I know that what I believe is true), I make the decision now to make an attempt to break off the exchange and encourage you to go to the scriptures. And I will do the same. Because I may be wrong, and you may be wrong; and especially if we are all three of us wrong, our best bet is to go to the word of the Lord and seek to be open to what the Holy Spirit has to say to us, and also allow Him to change our point of view where our point of view is not in alignment with His. Because while I know that what I believe is true, my knowledge could be faulty; and therefore it is important that I stay open to what the word of the Lord has to say concerning any area of doctrine wherein He wants to change my opinion.

However, because what I have come to believe has set me free, I believe it is the truth because that is the nature of truth, that it sets people free. And I certainly don't want to be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Therefore I expect one or both of you to attempt to goad me to continue with the conversation unless this sentence dissuades you from doing so. If the goading is strong enough, I may reply. However I sincerely hope that I can be obedient to the Lord's exhortation in 2 Timothy 2:24. I would teach you if either one of you had teachable spirits; because I am apt to teach (for one of my primary spiritual gifts is the word of wisdom). However the Bible says that it is not a good idea to sow among thorns, so I will refrain from continuing in this conversation.

Sincerely yours,

justbyfaith.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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It was depressing as I realized how far I stand from being as perfect as Jesus was in doing precisely what I see my Father doing in all my daily activities..or even consistently even making sure what that is. I once thought I was pretty righteous; when I realized in painful detail how far off the mark I am compared to Jesus, it was depressing.
The only thing that comes to mind is you were searching yourself condemning yourself and raising a standard of living that He is not requiring of you that day. I have asked the Holy Spirit to search me and my ways many many times and never left depressed but cleansed and humbled. If you consider doing this again, do not search yourself, but ask God to search you and wait patiently while things come to mind. Now we are never condemned by him so rebuke condemnation. But we are convicted and there is a big difference. Condemnation, in a nutshell, is vague. Conviction is very specific.
That's your lie. I never said that.
I never said you said those words. But instead of asking God to forgive the individual sins, you blind yourself to these and ask for a blanket "one prayer covers all" confession. IT is not really any repentance there as no one can repentent of merely being a generic sinner. One repents of inidividual sins. These have to be seen, confess and repented of individually.
What I strive to now is to inquire of the Lord the night before or the day before what God wants me to do the next day.
Does he ever give you specific answers. Can you share a testimony of some?
I know there is the problem that if I'd known to do this half a century ago, I would be in a very different position now--I'd be a very different person who would have had a very different life that would have been in step with the Lord long ago.
Well, your life is not over and He can definately restore to you what was lost.
But the Holy Spirit is kind of like GPS in a certain regard. No matter how far you are off course, He knows the route to your destination from wherever you are.
Sometimes you must turn around because the present course will never take you to that destination. This is true of a GPS as well.
A lot of people want to be more like Christ, but I'm discovering that it isn't "being" that makes a person more like Christ, it's "doing" that makes a person more like Christ. And what Christ wants each of us to be doing is our fragment of His mission: To make disciples and to love one another.
You are a wise person. You have hit the nail on the head with the first part. What Christ wants each of us to do is love God with all our being and love our neighbor as ourselves. Bring his love to the world. Yes, this does involve sharing the gospel but not only. Giving a cup of water to a thirsty man is also pleasing to Him.
People natter on about "God's plan for my life," without realizing that God's plan for our lives begins with our roles in His Body to carry out His mission.
Well, a lot seem to think God's plan happens no matter what they choose to do. My experience is you find God's plan for your life when you start doing each day what God wants you to do, talking to him and getting GPS direction. I like that analogy, btw. I am going to use it. GPS speak to you as well. Very nice.
We first need to know what Jesus wants us to be doing for His mission, today, right now. Everything else of "God's plan for my life" stems from that.
Again, spot on. If we focus on doing each day the tasks set before us asking for His guidance and correction and then actually DO what we think God is asking (sometimes is not pleasant and takes what I call raw obedience) we will not fail to miss the plan. I am over 50 and look back on my life knowing I found God's plan although, when I think about it, it really it is not a matter of finding God's plan but following Jesus and one looks back and sees where He led and how he wove so much so beautifully together. Even the pains before wellsprings of life.
 
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To @Dorothy Mae and @Oldmantook,

I feel that it would not be a good thing for me to continue in this discussion as we will all be reduced to arguing and striving against each other's opinions, which the word of the Lord says not to do.

So I leave this discussion at his point and I leave you with this thought: Please continue to study the scriptures and be open to everything that the Holy Spirit has to say.

It took me winning the argument when I was on the side of false doctrine for me to understand the error of my ways. I once was a heavy proponent of the idea that one must be sinlessly perfect in order to be saved, in spite of scriptures that told me otherwise. Finally I realized that I was a habitual sinner even though the sin I was committing used to grab a hold of me only about once every two weeks. After twenty-eight years of sinning, falling, getting back up; sinning, falling, getting back up: I finally realized that I am a sinner! Admitting this in the general sense is the farthest thing from pride (and btw, my quip about being proud of my humility was another attempt to lighten things up, to no avail).

One day I read Psalms 51:3 and around the same time I read Luke 18:9-14. It changed my perspective completely. All of a sudden I knew that I am a sinner saved by grace and that I do not have to measure up in order to be accepted by the Lord; all of a sudden my burden was lifted and I was able to take on His burden and His yoke; which is much, much lighter. Suddenly my salvation was no longer dependent on me but I suddenly understood that the shed blood of Christ on the Cross was the sufficient payment for the penalty of my sins; and what He did on the Cross provided for His perfect life to be applied to my account, while all of my sins and imperfections were applied to His account as He took the penalty for my sin/sins.

I stand forgiven before God because of what He did for me. It is not dependent on my performance; and because of my realization of this, my performance has become much better. Because the pressure's off. Suddenly the things I do are graceful because I am a recipient of grace and they are not done under pressure.

But you can believe against these things if you would like. I know what has worked for me, so I will abide in the doctrine that has set me free.

And since the Bible teaches that the servant of the Lord must not argue or strive, I think I should discontinue talking with you guys because there is a certain hostility that I sense coming from both of you; and to continue in this discussion would only be unfruitful. It would only lead to more argument and an attempt by both sides to "get the better of my opponent". And since such an exchange might only entrench you further in what you believe (because you are fighting to convince yourselves that what you believe is true; while I know that what I believe is true), I make the decision now to make an attempt to break off the exchange and encourage you to go to the scriptures. And I will do the same. Because I may be wrong, and you may be wrong; and especially if we are all three of us wrong, our best bet is to go to the word of the Lord and seek to be open to what the Holy Spirit has to say to us, and also allow Him to change our point of view where our point of view is not in alignment with His. Because while I know that what I believe is true, my knowledge could be faulty; and therefore it is important that I stay open to what the word of the Lord has to say concerning any area of doctrine wherein He wants to change my opinion.

However, because what I have come to believe has set me free, I believe it is the truth because that is the nature of truth, that it sets people free. And I certainly don't want to be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Therefore I expect one or both of you to attempt to goad me to continue with the conversation unless this sentence dissuades you from doing so. If the goading is strong enough, I may reply. However I sincerely hope that I can be obedient to the Lord's exhortation in 2 Timothy 2:24. I would teach you if either one of you had teachable spirits; because I am apt to teach (for one of my primary spiritual gifts is the word of wisdom). However the Bible says that it is not a good idea to sow among thorns, so I will refrain from continuing in this conversation.

Sincerely yours,

justbyfaith.
Why would you expect one or both of us from goading you to continue the discussion? One must be able to defend one's belief, but if you choose not to that is certainly your prerogative. At worse we agree to disagree. You said you once believed in sinless perfection which is not what I believe. I advised you to study what it means to sin occasionally versus sinning habitually and the consequences thereof which is the key to understanding this issue. You many choose to do so, or ignore my advice which is again your prerogative.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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To @Dorothy Mae and @Oldmantook,

I feel that it would not be a good thing for me to continue in this discussion as we will all be reduced to arguing and striving against each other's opinions, which the word of the Lord says not to do.

So I leave this discussion at his point and I leave you with this thought: Please continue to study the scriptures and be open to everything that the Holy Spirit has to say.

It took me winning the argument when I was on the side of false doctrine for me to understand the error of my ways. I once was a heavy proponent of the idea that one must be sinlessly perfect in order to be saved, in spite of scriptures that told me otherwise. Finally I realized that I was a habitual sinner even though the sin I was committing used to grab a hold of me only about once every two weeks. After twenty-eight years of sinning, falling, getting back up; sinning, falling, getting back up: I finally realized that I am a sinner! Admitting this in the general sense is the farthest thing from pride (and btw, my quip about being proud of my humility was another attempt to lighten things up, to no avail).

One day I read Psalms 51:3 and around the same time I read Luke 18:9-14. It changed my perspective completely. All of a sudden I knew that I am a sinner saved by grace and that I do not have to measure up in order to be accepted by the Lord; all of a sudden my burden was lifted and I was able to take on His burden and His yoke; which is much, much lighter. Suddenly my salvation was no longer dependent on me but I suddenly understood that the shed blood of Christ on the Cross was the sufficient payment for the penalty of my sins; and what He did on the Cross provided for His perfect life to be applied to my account, while all of my sins and imperfections were applied to His account as He took the penalty for my sin/sins.

I stand forgiven before God because of what He did for me. It is not dependent on my performance; and because of my realization of this, my performance has become much better. Because the pressure's off. Suddenly the things I do are graceful because I am a recipient of grace and they are not done under pressure.

But you can believe against these things if you would like. I know what has worked for me, so I will abide in the doctrine that has set me free.

And since the Bible teaches that the servant of the Lord must not argue or strive, I think I should discontinue talking with you guys because there is a certain hostility that I sense coming from both of you; and to continue in this discussion would only be unfruitful. It would only lead to more argument and an attempt by both sides to "get the better of my opponent". And since such an exchange might only entrench you further in what you believe (because you are fighting to convince yourselves that what you believe is true; while I know that what I believe is true), I make the decision now to make an attempt to break off the exchange and encourage you to go to the scriptures. And I will do the same. Because I may be wrong, and you may be wrong; and especially if we are all three of us wrong, our best bet is to go to the word of the Lord and seek to be open to what the Holy Spirit has to say to us, and also allow Him to change our point of view where our point of view is not in alignment with His. Because while I know that what I believe is true, my knowledge could be faulty; and therefore it is important that I stay open to what the word of the Lord has to say concerning any area of doctrine wherein He wants to change my opinion.

However, because what I have come to believe has set me free, I believe it is the truth because that is the nature of truth, that it sets people free. And I certainly don't want to be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Therefore I expect one or both of you to attempt to goad me to continue with the conversation unless this sentence dissuades you from doing so. If the goading is strong enough, I may reply. However I sincerely hope that I can be obedient to the Lord's exhortation in 2 Timothy 2:24. I would teach you if either one of you had teachable spirits; because I am apt to teach (for one of my primary spiritual gifts is the word of wisdom). However the Bible says that it is not a good idea to sow among thorns, so I will refrain from continuing in this conversation.

Sincerely yours,

justbyfaith.
Dear Jbf,

You completely misunderstand my position. I disagree with none of the above. SOunds like you had the exact same experience Martin Luther had that led eventually to the Reformation. He describes it the same way as you do. The disagreement we or I have is not with any of the above. That is a very real and powerful experience and I rejoice that you stopped striving.

I cannot relate personally to that experience as I cannot recall ever striving to be sinless or perfect or anything of the sort. I have heard the voice of God since childhood andconfe ssed and repented of my sin in childhood. I cannot recall ever feeling unacceptable to Him or any need to do anything to get his love or acceptance in that sense. So while I know that experience is real and vital to many, it does not describe my walk with Jesus.

The problem we have is where you have taken it from there. You experienced forgiveness and acceptance without doing anything. That is truth. You are. But then you got ahold of some false doctrine that goes beyond your experience, the scripture and what Christians believed down through the centuries that we take issue with.

We can leave the discussion but since you put in your position, please allow me to express mine. I have long ago left the elementary matters of forgiveness of sin and moved into obedience to God in real decisions in my life, large ones and small one. In my early 20s I experienced God being pleased with my life. I had done something that could never be undone solely because I believed He wanted me to do so. It was expensive and not easy. But I did it. And when it was done, I felt the pleasure of God on my life for days. It was so awesome that it gave me a taste of what I want Him to feel about my life in general.

This is now my heart throb. I have felt this twice since and it was always after doing something very difficult. It was done by raw obedience at times born out of a passion to please Him. Now I have known since teenage years that God loves and accepts me. That is not an issue. But I want Him to be pleased with me and that is not the same thing. When I stand before Him, I want to hear, "well done good and faithful servant."

Again to repeat. I have known for decades now love and acceptance from God. I do not strive to be either loved or accepted. That is firmly established and I never doubt it anymore than I doubt the love of my parents or husband or children. But I want to please those still with me, God being the most important. Out of experience I can say He is fairly easy to please but hard to satisfy. But for some periods in my life, I gather I satisfied Him. This is all I want.

Bless you in your walk.

Dorothy Mae
 
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Dorothy Mae

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That is the nature of the Lord's creation. You will recover if I sin against you. If you sin against me, you will suffer a good long time.
No, only those who embrace it. I know this is impossbile for you to see as you want everyone to be as selfish as you allow yourself to be. It is simply not true. I an give lots of examples. There are those who were murdered by others and they, the victim, never recoverd. The perpetrator went onto repent and will live eternally in bliss. Who suffered?
 
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@Dorothy Mae, I have singled out things in your post that I deem will not produce an argument; and answer them below:

Did you read what I wrote? Do you think the Bible is the only source of knowledge in the world? Do you not see that if a man say, steals millions he will have an easy and comfortable life? He will likely be popular as the rich are. Do you think those who wrote the Bible don't know this? It is obvious. Steal a lot and you will have more money than if you do not. Why is this something you do not believe? Might not make a better life but certainly profitable. The man might lose his soul but that does not mean stealing does not bring material profit.

Job 33:27-29, He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which is right, and it profited me not: He will deliver his soul from going unto the pit, and his life shall see the light. Lo, all these things God worketh oftentimes with man.

I know a number of Christians where God pointed out something in their life that needed to change way down the line.

What would have happened to them if they had died for some odd reason before God revealed it to them?

Ecclesiastes 9:11, I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Proverbs 27:1, Boast not thyself of tomorrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.

They called "Lord lord" but were condemned. Why? Because saying the words "lord lord" are not what the author had in mind. The author himself did not merely say "lord lord" nor preach to others that they just needed to say "lord, lord." The interpretation is wrong, not the scripture.

Calling on the name of the Lord does not mean to say to Jesus, Lord, Lord. His name is Jesus Christ of Nazareth (Acts 4:10-12). To call on His name means to call on the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for salvation. Romans 10:13 promises absolutely that those who do this shall be saved.

In your view they never were born again which means they do not repent and be forgiven but need to be saved.

To be saved is to be forgiven; and to be forgiven is to be saved.

Your theology is very works based. If one is born again, one is changed so one does not want to sin. If one sins, one is not born again. Works based.

If a person is saved by grace (and not through works...Romans 11:5-6) they will labour more than they all (1 Corinthians 15:10). Because thay are a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and therefore they are now inclined in their hearts towards doing works of righteousness (Ephesians 2:10). Which does not nullify the fact that they are saved by grace through faith; and that not of themselves: it is the gift of God: and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Quote the part that says this please becasue I read them all and none of them say that. Your theology has twisted it to say that. By "your" I mean the false theology that has come with the truth that you do not need to work to gain his love. No one is predestined for heave or hell or salvation.

The very word "predestined" or "predestinated" is in the verses that I referenced. In one of them, it speaks of the elect.

Gladly. Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other.

Matthew 24:10 (kjv): And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

It says nothing of falling away from the faith there.

You said you loved your wife because the Bible tells a husband to love his wife. That is naming a virtue by saying it is so.

I was also naming a sin, since it is a sin to love one's self (see 2 Timothy 3:1-2); and it says that the one who loves his wife loves himself. Conclusion: we simply can't get away from the element of sin during this life, especially if we are married men and want to obey the Lord concerning how to be a good husband in Ephesians 5.

I am sorry for you. Your theology teaches to you tell yourself that this is so along with other virtues. It is much better to be so close to God in relationship that it is so and one never need convince oneself it is so.

I'm not telling myself anything, and have not tried to convince myself of anything. Rather, I am convinced by the Lord that His salvation is eternal. Before I came to this understanding I opposed myself trying to convince others that it was possible for one to lose one's salvation.

NO He did not. There is no scripture that all future sins are already forgiven.

There is (Romans 4:7-8, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 10:14-17, John 5:24)

And the "schoolmaster" is not Jesus or the Holy Spirit but men.

Actually, the schoolmaster, according to the scripture referenced (Galatians 3:24-25) is the law.

Please show me the scripture that says God measures it by looking at the faith that invisible and never the works and words that comes out of the heart.

1 Samuel 16:7, Romans 4:1-8 say that He measures it primarily by our faith that He sees in our hearts. Of course, there are times when God also measures it by our works (see Jonah 3:10).
 
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No, only those who embrace it. I know this is impossbile for you to see as you want everyone to be as selfish as you allow yourself to be. It is simply not true. I an give lots of examples. There are those who were murdered by others and they, the victim, never recoverd. The perpetrator went onto repent and will live eternally in bliss. Who suffered?
It is built into the Lord's creation that the sinner suffers more than the victim of sin.
 
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justbyfaith

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Scripture please?? There is no such verse that an unbeliever can use Jesus' name to do the miraculous. You are making things up out of thin air just to support your belief.

Judas was an unbeliever and yet he cast out demons (for he was one of the twelve who were sent out to do so). That is evidence enough for me that the name of Jesus is powerful enough for even an unbeliever to invoke His name and have success at casting out a demon. Pedophilic priests in the Catholic church have success at it using their methods, for crying out loud.

You believe that all who disobey were never believers but that goes against Scripture.

What scripture?

Doesn't matter if the Spirit was not yet given. It shows that Peter who already publically confessed Jesus as Messiah/Son of God was capable of heeding Satan instead of Jesus.

It does matter. Because if the Holy Spirit had been indwelling Peter, the devil would never have been able to possess him.

If they were not true believers then why would God invoke the death penalty for those who weren't supposed to be obedient to God anyway??

Everyone is supposed to be obedient to the Lord. We were created for that purpose.

And if they weren't true believers, why would that instill fear in the church in Acts 5:11?

Because they claimed to be believers and for all practical purposes appeared to the church to be genuine believers.

Your explanation is highly imaginative. Why would an unbeliever sell their own property which would have been a costly sacrifice for something they really didn't believe in? It is you who have forgotten the story - hypocrisy is God's judgement for the believer - not the unbeliever.

Ananias kept back part of the proceeds and lied saying that they were giving it all to the church. This indicates their hypocrisy in that their motivation was to be accepted as big shots in the church as Barnabas was who preceeded them in doing the actual deed of selling property and actually laying all of it at the apostles' feet. Also, those who are truly born again, impaho, cannot be hypocrites; for hypocrites will face the judgment of hell. And those who are truly born again shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24).

According to John 1:8-10 we all sin (except yourself who doesn't know if you sin).

1 John 1:8 does not say, "If we say that we don't sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." it says, "if we say that we have no sin..." This is talking about indwelling sin and refers back to Romans 7:18. Indwelling sin can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6-7, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it has no authority over your behaviour (1 John 3:5-9, Hebrews 10:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24). Now if anyone has been made perfect, his attitude will be that he still has holiness to apprehend (Philippians 3:15 and context). But he may be unaware of anything against himself, and yet also consider that there may be something that the Holy Spirit has not revealed to him as sin (1 Corinthians 4:4).

1 John 1:10 teaches that all of us have committed sins as concerning our past. It does not teach that we necessarily have to sin in our present or future.

How can a believer who no longer believes still be a believer.

A person can have a large degree of unbelief and still have a certain measure of faith (see Mark 9:24). And hypothetically, if someone is truly a child of God, they could cease to believe completely, and while they would be spiritually dead, they would not in that cease to be one of God's children. Jesus does indeed leave the ninety-nine to go and search for the one lost sheep who is gone astray.

Logically your explanation does not make any sense as apostatize means to depart from genuine faith - not fake faith or "outward form." It is impossible for an unsaved person to apostatize.

You have obviously never heard people talk about "the faith of Christianity" referring it to as one of many world religions. People stop being Christians outwardly all of the time: it does not mean that they were genuinely saved; in fact, biblically, the opposite would be true.

So one can initially believe but then no longer believe? Or is it impossible for someone who genuinely believes to stop believing?

Someone who has a genuine saving faith (who is one of the elect) cannot stop believing; but they can backslide: and for all practical purposes appear to be an unbeliever.

So sheep who disobey are still saved or no longer saved?

Still saved; because they continue to be sheep; they are not transformed into dogs or pigs. Satan is a created being, not God, so he cannot reverse the transformation that takes place when God makes a person a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Sanctification does not just "fall into place." It requires ongoing belief, repentance, obedience. Not all believers choose to continue to follow the narrow road that leads to life.

Sanctification does fall into place when a living faith is in the heart (James 2:17). Titus 3:4-7, 2 Corinthians 5:17 show that faith regenerates and renews the soul and spirit of the genuine believer in the Holy Ghost. What this means is that the love of God is shed abroad in the heart (Romans 5:5); which love cannot be in word or in tongue only; but must always be in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18). Such a love as this is the fulfilling of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

You claim that a believer's works are irrelevant but Jesus judges all the churches in Revelation by their works so how can our works be irrelevant?

Please be more specific as to which scriptures state that Jesus judged the churches according to their works.

You did not answer my question. If a believer knowingly refuses to forgive someone else who has offended/hurt him, is he still forgiven by God? Yes or no?

Forgiving other people is one of the basics of being a true believer according to the Sermon on the Mount. A true believer therefore will not refuse to forgive; since obedience to the Sermon on the Mount is foundational to our faith in Christ (Matthew 7:24-27).

No, not according to James 2:17,20.

You have just condemned to hell a bunch of people who converted on their deathbeds, and judged them. Only Jesus has the right to do that; we are not to condemn or judge anyone else's salvation (see Matthew 7:1-6, Luke 6:37, Romans 2:1-2, James 4:11-12).
 
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dreadnought

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No, only those who embrace it. I know this is impossbile for you to see as you want everyone to be as selfish as you allow yourself to be. It is simply not true. I an give lots of examples. There are those who were murdered by others and they, the victim, never recoverd. The perpetrator went onto repent and will live eternally in bliss. Who suffered?

It is built into the Lord's creation that the sinner suffers more than the victim of sin.
The Lord can relieve anyone from their suffering.
 
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Oldmantook

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Judas was an unbeliever and yet he cast out demons (for he was one of the twelve who were sent out to do so). That is evidence enough for me that the name of Jesus is powerful enough for even an unbeliever to invoke His name and have success at casting out a demon. Pedophilic priests in the Catholic church have success at it using their methods, for crying out loud.



What scripture?



It does matter. Because if the Holy Spirit had been indwelling Peter, the devil would never have been able to possess him.



Everyone is supposed to be obedient to the Lord. We were created for that purpose.



Because they claimed to be believers and for all practical purposes appeared to the church to be genuine believers.



Ananias kept back part of the proceeds and lied saying that they were giving it all to the church. This indicates their hypocrisy in that their motivation was to be accepted as big shots in the church as Barnabas was who preceeded them in doing the actual deed of selling property and actually laying all of it at the apostles' feet. Also, those who are truly born again, impaho, cannot be hypocrites; for hypocrites will face the judgment of hell. And those who are truly born again shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24).



1 John 1:8 does not say, "If we say that we don't sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." it says, "if we say that we have no sin..." This is talking about indwelling sin and refers back to Romans 7:18. Indwelling sin can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6-7, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it has no authority over your behaviour (1 John 3:5-9, Hebrews 10:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24). Now if anyone has been made perfect, his attitude will be that he still has holiness to apprehend (Philippians 3:15 and context). But he may be unaware of anything against himself, and yet also consider that there may be something that the Holy Spirit has not revealed to him as sin (1 Corinthians 4:4).



A person can have a large degree of unbelief and still have a certain measure of faith (see Mark 9:24). And hypothetically, if someone is truly a child of God, they could cease to believe completely, and while they would be spiritually dead, they would not in that cease to be one of God's children. Jesus does indeed leave the ninety-nine to go and search for the one lost sheep who is gone astray.



You have obviously never heard people talk about "the faith of Christianity" referring it to as one of many world religions. People stop being Christians outwardly all of the time: it does not mean that they were genuinely saved; in fact, biblically, the opposite would be true.



Someone who has a genuine saving faith (who is of the elect) cannot stop believing; but they can backslide: and for all practical purposes appear to be an unbeliever.



Still saved; because they continue to be sheep; they are not transformed into dogs or pigs. satan is a created being, not God, so he cannot reverse the transformation that takes place when God makes a person a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).



Sanctification does fall into place when a living faith is in the heart. Titus 3:4-7, 2 Corinthians 5:17 show that faith regenerates and renews the soul and spirit of the genuine believer in the Holy Ghost. What this means is that the love of God is shed abroad in the heart (Romans 5:5); which love cannot be in word or in tongue only; but must always be in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18). Such a love as this is the fulfilling of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).



Please be more specific as to which scriptures state that Jesus judged the churches according to their works.



Forgiving other people is one of the basics of being a true believer according to the Sermon on the Mount. A true believer therefore will not refuse to forgive; since obedience to the Sermon on the Mount is foundational to our faith in Christ (Matthew 7:24-27).



You have just condemned to hell a bunch of people who converted on their deathbeds, and judged them. Only Jesus has the right to do that; we are not to condemn or judge anyone else's salvation (see Matthew 7:1-6, Luke 6:37, Romans 2:1-2, James 4:11-12).
I thought you wrote that you were finished responding. I did not goad you to respond yet you still reply? I advised you to study the difference in what the scriptures state between occasional sin which is forgiveable and habitual sin or the practice of sin which is not forgiveable. Any answer??
 
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