Do the Ten Commandments define sin? (nope)

Saint Steven said:

You seems to be confused about the commandments. The Ten Commandments are a subset of the law. (the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses) And you are quoting NT commands as if they are part of the Ten Commandments. Better figure this out before you start passing judgment by calling my OP a falsehood.

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You made a statement saying this list that you created were sins that the 10 commandments didn't cover or didn't take into account and render illegal.

I disagreed as each and every sin that you listed was in fact covered under the 10 commandments of Moses and rendered illegal - contrary to your assertion.

Now your saying I'm talking about new testament law - which I never once did - I simply showed under what commandment a few of your examples fel.

So in general your making no sense with your claims against me. I don't even know how a conversation can be had under such circumstances...

Saint Steven said:

What part of the law "was engraved on stones"? That would be the Ten Commandments, right?

You get the award for finding the Ten Commandments in the NT. But what does it say about them? The transitory ministry that brought death. It is being contrasted to the new covenant of the Spirit.

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The NT is deeper, it is spiritual and applied at the heart by the Holy Spirit. It is actually a higher standard.

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Soyeong said:

All of the 613 commands in the OT and 1,050 commands of the NT can be put into one or both of the categories as being instructions for how to love God or for how to love our neighbor, so the other commandments hand on the greatest two because they are examples of what it looks like to correctly obey them. For example, when we help the poor we are also correctly obeying the command to love our neighbor, so the command to love does not replace the other commands, but rather it is the essence of them. It would say we just need to obey God's command to love so we can disregard all of His instructions for how He wants us to love.



You are still inconsistently translating "fulfill the Law of Christ". Love fulfill the Law because that it essentially what it is about how to do. "To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3), not to abolish it.

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Jeremiah & Hebrews say the New Covenant replaced the Old (Ten Commandments and peripheral doctrines).

Dave L said:

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. Please consider:

“And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Exodus 34:28

“And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.” Deuteronomy 4:13:

“When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.” Deuteronomy 9:9:

“So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.” Deuteronomy 9:15:

“There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,” I Kings 8:9

“And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.” I Kings 8:21

The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.

Consider “The ark of the covenant” that held the Ten Commandments (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)

Now, consider what Jeremiah says:

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33)

Now consider Christ introduced the New Covenant:

“In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”” (1 Corinthians 11:25)

“who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” (2 Corinthians 3:6)

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Sin was in the world before the Law was given, so sin is specific to God, not to a particular covenant. It was sinful to commit murder before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and after it has become obsolete, so the Mosaic Law did not change what was sin, but revealed what has always been and will always be sin. So the fact that we are under a New Covenant does not mean that we don't need to obey God's Law, especially because the New Covenant involves God writing His Law on our hearts.

Soyeong said:

Sin was in the world before the Law was given, so sin is specific to God, not to a particular covenant. It was sinful to commit murder before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and after it has become obsolete, so the Mosaic Law did not change what was sin, but revealed what has always been and will always be sin. So the fact that we are under a New Covenant does not mean that we don't need to obey God's Law, especially because the New Covenant involves God writing His Law on our hearts.

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If you love God and people, you will do what is right and shun sin.

Hank77 said:

Maybe you can recognize that I am speaking of Covenants, not individual laws.

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The fact that the covenant came later does not mean that it has different laws. A covenant with a different set of instructions for how to act in accordance with God's character traits would have to be made with a different god with different character traits.

Dave L said:

If you love God and people, you will do what is right and shun sin.

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Indeed, sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law, so if we love God and people, then we will obey His Law. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments. In John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he taught the same commands that the Father taught to Moses.

Soyeong said:

Indeed, sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law, so if we love God and people, then we will obey His Law. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments. In John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he taught the same commands that the Father taught to Moses.

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But, we are not under law. Love fulfills the law (as Jesus did) even if we never heard mention of it.

Saint Steven said:

If you believe the Ten Commandments define sin, you have left yourself lots of wiggle room.

These sins are not covered under the TCs.
- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, inappropriate behavior with animals
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.
....

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I think they are. Person who obeys Ten Commandments, can’t do those things.

Dave L said:

But, we are not under law. Love fulfills the law (as Jesus did) even if we never heard mention of it.

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But God is God, so the whole world is under God's Law and obligated to obey it, otherwise God would not have been just to judge the world with the Flood for the sins or to judge the world in Revelation. Likewise, in 2 Peter 2:6-8, Sodom and Gomorrah were judged for their Lawless deeds, so they were under God's Law and were obligated to obey it even though they weren't in a covenant relationship with Him. They didn't get the choice of whether they wanted to be under God's Law and neither do you. Through God's Law He has given you knowledge of what sin is, so the choice you get to make is whether or not you will repent and obey by faith. If you love God, then you will obey His commandments. Love fulfills the Law because obedience to the Law is what love looks like. Jesus expressed His love through His actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, and that is how we are to love as he loved.

Saint Steven said:

So you believe that we are under the law?

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No we are under the new convenient, those who are in Jesus. However, the inward working of the Holy Spirit brings the Ten Commandments to a much deeper conviction within our hearts. Have you not experienced this? It is like Jesus when he said if you hate your brother you have committed murder in your heart and therefore are guilty of it. It is deeper, the Holy Spirit then works on our heart to show we are wretched and bring this hate to the forefront in our minds and heart so he can then correct it.

Saint Steven said:

@2Timothy2:15
Nice try, but this is a FAIL.

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Back that fail up with some doctrine and scripture then please.

Saint Steven said:

- Pride is not addressed in the Ten Commandments, nor is it making yourself equal to God.
- Greed is not addressed in the Ten Commandments, nor is it a violation the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. Which is actually in the NT.
- Envy does not violate the commandment not to covet. Covet is in reference to things. Envy is in relation to people. (you almost had the right)
- Wrath is not addressed in the Ten Commandments. The love commandment is in the NT.

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When you have pride, you put yourself above everything else and thus worship self. In doing so, you are having other gods before God...

If you are given a commandment thou shalt not steal, but decide you'll break into someone's house in the night to take some goods they refused to let you borrow, deciding to yourself you'll just give those goods back someday, have you followed the commandment to not steal?

Pride raises the self up to God status to be worshipped, and is thus against the commandments. It's simple.

Envy means you see something your envious of; things, money, status, looks, whatever, you cant have envy without some thing your envious of, and hence its covered under thou shalt not covet.

your right it was my bad to bring up love, love of God is what is mentioned in the 10 but it still doesn't eliminate wrath - especially if we knew the cause of wrath.

The 10 commandments wasn't the problem in the end, the problem was legalism. Like you, the difficulty showed up when people began saying 'well I can do this or that because it's not specifically listed,' regardless of whether or not it would be a violation...

2Timothy2:15 said:

No we are under the new convenient, those who are in Jesus. However, the inward working of the Holy Spirit brings the Ten Commandments to a much deeper conviction within our hearts. Have you not experienced this? It is like Jesus when he said if you hate your brother you have committed murder in your heart and therefore are guilty of it. It is deeper, the Holy Spirit then works on our heart to show we are wretched and bring this hate to the forefront in our minds and heart so he can then correct it.

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Jesus was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which means that he would have still taught full obedience to it even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). Furthermore, in 1 John 2:3-6, we are told that those who are in Christ ought to walk in the same way he walked. Everything that Jesus taught both by word and by example was to obey the Mosaic Law, such as with Leviticus 19:17 that instructs us not to hate our brother. The Holy Spirit also has the role of leading us to obey the Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Saint Steven said:

I agree. But this specific sin is not addressed, thus outside the Bible. That's the point.

Would sex in a virtual reality environment be a sin? (not an actual person)

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Compare your questions with those of the Pharisees.

Is it alright for a man to divorce his wife?

Is paying taxes to Caesar a sin?

Aren't you not suppose to work on the Sabbath?

The Pharisees were concerned with following rules. If anything, they wanted a leader who would come up with more rules. Jesus's reply near his end pointed out that there were more important aspects of law, including justice, mercy, and faith.

Many people misinterpret the major crime of David as being lust. But any full reading of the Bible shows that the real crimes were David's injustice, cruelty, and unfaithfulness to God. Nathan's original rebuke in 2 Samuel 12:1-4 mentions nothing about sex. In fact, continuing in 2 Samuel 12:8 God says he would have actually enabled David to have sex with more women. Continuing in 2 Samuel 12:9-10, God reiterates his hatred of injustice, cruelty, and unfaithfulness to God. Yes, David also committed adultery, but that was a minor offense in comparison.

Does making more laws make society better? Do more rules = a better society? More laws won't make better Christians.

The Mormon's think more laws are better. They love to say that their religion is the one to recognize the evils of caffeine. Muslim's tout their refraining from alcohol and five-times-a-day prayer. The add-on religions all like to add laws.

Is VR-inappropriate content wrong? I would say that it probably falls under the "sexual immorality" clause but there is a more important aspect to this. The VR-inappropriate content is more likely a symptom of a bigger problem. Do you actually care and want to help the person? Or are you just throwing on an additional burden without lifting a finger to help?

Marty

Soyeong said:

Jesus was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which means that he would have still taught full obedience to it even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). Furthermore, in 1 John 2:3-6, we are told that those who are in Christ ought to walk in the same way he walked. Everything that Jesus taught both by word and by example was to obey the Mosaic Law, such as with Leviticus 19:17 that instructs us not to hate our brother. The Holy Spirit also has the role of leading us to obey the Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

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Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law not the same, which is why he calls them the commandments.




One
The major point of difference between these two laws is the way they were recorded:



Exodus 31:18, "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God."
No one can confuse the Ten Commandments writing with the way the Mosaic law was produced:



Deuteronomy 31:9, "And Moses wrote this law."




Two
Another major point of difference between these two laws is the way they were given to God's People.



Deuteronomy 4:36; 5:22, "Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: ...These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."
It's important to notice that after God wrote the Ten Commandments, he "added no more" to this Law, yet God gave Moses statutes, precepts, judgments, and ordinances afterwards. If the Mosaic law was part of the Ten Commandments, there would be a contradiction here, because God did add more to this law! But there was no contradiction, because God considered the Ten Commandments to be a separate Law. The Ten Commandments were spoken by God himself to the people, so that God would instruct them. There was no mediator involved! Moses was not the mediator of the Ten Commandments. But he was the mediator of the sacrificial laws:



Exodus 33:9, "And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses."
2 Chronicles 34:14, "...Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD given by Moses."

Unlike the Ten Commandments, in which God talked directly to the people, the sacrificial and ceremonial laws were spoken to Moses only. Moses was the mediator of these temporary laws, but not the Ten Commandments.



Three
God made known this distinction to Moses, and Moses explained it to the people at Mt. Horeb:



Deuteronomy 4:13-14, "And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it."
Please notice how Moses clearly separated the Ten Commandments which "he commanded you", from the statutes which "he commanded me" to give the people. The big question now is whether those statutes and judgments were designated as separate and distinct "law".

[See also Exodus 19:7; 39:1,5,7,21,26,29,31,32,42,43; 40:19,21,23,25,27,29,32 and Leviticus 7:38; 8:9,13,17,21,29: 9:10; 27:34]



Four


2 Kings 21:8, "Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them."
Here we are assured that the statutes which Moses gave the people were called a "law". Two different laws are being described now. God speaks of the law "I commanded" (The Ten Commandments) and also of the law "Moses commanded" (the law of Moses).

[See also Leviticus 9:5 and Deuteronomy 33:4 for the commandments of Moses. Deuteronomy 6:2; 8:11; 11:22,27,28; 13:18; 15:5; 19:9; 27:10; 28:1,13,15 and Joshua 22:5 for two different laws. And Revelation 12:17 and 14:12 for the commandments of God]



Five
Daniel was inspired to make the same careful distinction:



Daniel 9:11, "Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him."
Once more we see "thy law" (God's law, the Ten Commandments) and "the law of Moses" (the commandments of Moses), and are different in content. There are no curses recorded in the Ten Commandments that God wrote. Only the book of Moses has curses (Deuteronomy.29:20,21,27, 2 Chron.34:24).

[See also Exodus 20:6 for a passage on how the Ten Commandments were considered God's commandments, and not Moses' commandments]



Six
The following verses show that the "Ten Commandments" and the "law of Moses" are 2 separate laws, because they were separated physically:



Deuteronomy 31:24-26, "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee."
The book of statutes and judgments which Moses wrote in a book was placed in a pocket on the side of the ark. In contrast, the Law written by God on tables of stone was placed inside the ark of the covenant.



Exodus 25:16, "And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee."
The spiritual lesson of this physical separation is that we are to spiritually separate the Ten Commandments from the laws of Moses.



Seven
And, finally, the most important point. Did you know God himself wrote the Ten Commandments a second time? Moses broke the first Ten Commandments.

Exodus 34:1, "Hew thee two tablets of stone like unto first; and I will write upon the tablets the words that were on the first tables, which thou didst break."
Deuteronomy 10:1 "...Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount; and make thee an ark of wood."

Now, first of all, if the Ten Commandments were part of the Law of Moses, there would be no need for God to write the Ten Commandments a second time after Moses broke the original Ten Commandments. Why? Because the Ten Commandments would already exist inside, and be included in, and be a part of, the book of Moses. The book of Moses still existed at that time, and was still being observed. But God decided to write the ten commandments a second time, which would have been meaningless if it was considered a part of the law of Moses, or the book of Moses. So obviously, God considered His Law (His Ten Commandments), to be separate from the Law of Moses (the commandments of Moses). This shows that the two laws are to be considered separate and distinct laws from each other.



An Illustration
You and I can enter into a Covenant with each other. Our covenant can be an agreement for you to do one thing and I another. Our covenant can also be based upon the Ten Commandments. We will agree to not steal, murder, or commit adultery. Now, does this mean the Ten Commandments did not exist before we entered into our covenant with each other? No, it does not. Here's another question. When our covenant passes away because we fulfilled our agreement with each other, does that mean the Ten Commandments, which this covenant was based upon, are also passed away? No, it does not.

This illustrates how I see the Ten Commandments. Before Moses confirmed the covenant, it was a sin to steal, murder, commit adultery, etc. These laws existed before the covenant at Sinai happened. And after this covenant waxed old, and was replaced with a new covenant, the laws that say do not steal, murder, and commit adultery did not pass away with the old covenant. God still expects us to obey those laws, which reflect His Will.



Conclusion


To summarize, we can note several distinctions in the two laws. They had different authors, were originally written on different materials, were spoken by different law-givers, were placed in different locations in the ark, and they had totally different content. This shows, by example, how they are to be considered and treated as separate laws. In addition, the Ten Commandments were spoken from God's mouth (Exodus 19:19; 20:1, Deuteronomy.4:10,12; 5:22-26; 18:16, Nehemiah 9:13), and God said he would not "alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." (Psalm 89:34). The Ten Commandments went out of God's lips, so the Ten Commandments could not have been altered!

To give you a hypothetical situation, if the Ten Commandments were a part of the book of Moses, then whatever happens to the book of Moses must also, by definition, happen to the Ten Commandments. Don't you agree?

Well, if the Ark caught on fire, and the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7), the law of Moses, suddenly burned to a crisp, would the Ten Commandments be burned up as well? No! But will the law of ordinances be burned up? Yes! The priesthood laws? Yes! The sacrificing laws? Yes! The Ten Commandments on Stone? No! Why? Because they were recorded on different materials. The tables of stone symbolize the imperishable nature of the Ten Commandments!

Now, here's a real example that will prove that they are two separate laws. Does God still expect us to sacrifice lamps, heifers, and other animals today, to atone for our sins? No, these sacrificial laws were changed. Does God still expect us to not steal, murder, lie, and commit adultery? Yes! Therefore, this simple fact that God does not expect us to obey the sacrificial laws of the Old Covenant, but does expect us to keep the laws of the Ten Commandments, prove that they are not part of the same law!

Moses' law was the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, etc., all of which foreshadowed Christ Jesus. This law was added "till the seed should come," and that seed was Christ (Galatians 3:16,19). The ritual and ceremony of Moses' law pointed forward to Christ, and this law came to an end, but the Ten Commandments (God's law) "stand fast for ever and ever." (Psalm 111:8).