Do the Ten Commandments define sin? (nope)

Dave L said:

Jesus fulfilled the Law (Ten Commandments = Old Covenant) on the cross and then abolished it replacing it with the New Covenant.

Click to expand...

In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so do you think that we are abolishing the Law of Christ when we do that?

YES!!! The Ten Commandments define sin. Every sin a person commits has at it's root a violation of one the Ten Commandments as it's base motivation of that sin.

After God gave Moses the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20, He goes on to show several examples of how they are violated as He sets the rules as to how He expects Israel to behave among themselves in Exodus 21-23.

Indeed the Law does define sin!

Soyeong said:

In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so do you think that we are abolishing the Law of Christ when we do that?

Click to expand...

The Two Great Commandments = the Law of Christ. He abolished the Ten Commandments.

Dave L said:

The Two Great Commandments = the Law of Christ. He abolished the Ten Commandments.

Click to expand...

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was not asked about which commandments should be followed to the exclusion of others, but about what the greatest commandment was. The greatest two commandments are the greatest because they summarize all of the other commands and all of the other commands hang on them because they are all examples of what it looks like to correctly love God and our neighbor. For example, obedience to the command to help the poor looks exactly like obedience to the command to love our neighbor, so the command to love does not replace the other commands, but rather it has always been the essence of the other commands. In other words, Christ's obedience to the greatest two commands looked exactly like his complete obedience to all of the Mosaic Law.

Hillsage said:

Are you saying that these verses prove that transgression is sin, because that is not what I think these scriptures are teaching. It is just confirming you don't get to step three 'sin' without passing step two 'transgression'.

Click to expand...

I just see it differently is all.

Romans 7:7 - 7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul says he had not known what sin was, but that the law told him. He didn't even know what lust was, except that the law told him it was something he wasn't to do.

Then in the 1 John 3:4 verse, it clearly says that "sin is transgression of the law.

1 John 3:4 - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Dave L said:

The Two Great Commandments = the Law of Christ. He abolished the Ten Commandments.

Click to expand...

Furthermore, you didn't answer my question. You interpret "fulfilling the Law of Christ" in a completely different way that you interpret "fulfilling the Law and the Prophets". In Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did to abolish God's eternal Law inspire of the fact that he directly said that he came not to abolish the Law in contrast with fulfilling it.

Hillsage said:

Are you saying that these verses prove that transgression is sin, because that is not what I think these scriptures are teaching. It is just confirming you don't get to step three 'sin' without passing step two 'transgression'.

Click to expand...

The only way that we can sin, is if we break the law. Jesus Himself said that the law was not done away with, not until the heavens and the earth passes. He also tells us to sin no more. He wasn't saying be lawless and ignore God's law, He was saying do your best to uphold it, despite that you'll fail at times, get back up, place your faith in Me for your justification, but try your best to uphold it as best as you can.

James 1:22-25 - 22Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves. 23For anyone who hears the word but does not carry it out is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror,24and after observing himself goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom, and continues to do so—not being a forgetful hearer, but an effective doer—he will be blessed in what he does.

The law of freedom, is the Torah, the law of God. We can know this because of the many times it calls God's law freedom.

So shall I keep your Torah continually forever and ever,
And I will walk in freedom: for I seek your precepts.
(Psalm 119:44-45)

Soyeong said:

Do you agree that the Israelites were given knowledge of what sin is and that the source of that knowledge was God's Law?

Click to expand...

I don't think I do agree with that. As Ken said all the 10 commandments were known to be sins before Sinai.

In Romans 3:20, God's Law was given in order to give us knowledge of sin, in Romans 7:7, Paul wouldn't have even known what sin is if it weren't for the Law, and in 1 John 3:4,

Click to expand...

That word for "knowledge" takes on a definition above and beyond what sin is defined as. I think ginosis is more about 'knowledge ABOUT' whereas epiginosis touches a deeper level of 'knowledge OF'. I know that's vague, but I'm not elaborating more than to say Romans 3:20 is epiginosis and 7:7 is ginosis.

sin is defined as the transgression of the Law, so I don't see how you can deny that it was given to define sin.

Click to expand...

Hopefully my last post helped.

In Romans 7, Paul said that Law of God is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), that he wanted to do good (7:13-20), that he delighted in obeying it (7:22), and that he served it with his mind (7:25), but contrasted that with the law of sin, which was working within him to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20), which held him captive (7:23), and which he served with his mind (7:25). In other words, the Law of God is not sinful, but was given to reveal was sin is (7:7), and when our sins are revealed that should lead us to repent and cause sin to decrease, but there is a law of sin that is sinful and stirs up sinful passions to bear fruit unto death (7:5), which causes sin to increase.

What "life" and "death" is Paul talking about in verses 9-11 to put all your opinion into 'context'?

There is a sense that all sin is the same in that it all separates us from God, but there is a sense that all sin is not the same in that they have different penalties. For example penalty for eating an unclean animals is not the same as the penalty for committing murder. Some sins instructed for someone to be expelled from the community while others did not. Furthermore, the same is true with the rewards for obedience not all being the same.

Click to expand...

You are not rightly dividing the difference between the 'temporal consequence'/penalties of SINS with the 'eternal consequence'/penatly of SIN. I make that division to understand differently than you.

Iniquity is intentional sin.

Click to expand...

You have your opinion, I have mine. Man is spirit, soul, flesh. Iniquity applies to the spirit, transgression applies to the soul and sin applies to the flesh.

Saint Steven said:

If you believe the Ten Commandments define sin, you have left yourself lots of wiggle room.

These sins are not covered under the TCs.
- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, inappropriate behavior with animals
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.

The definition of sin is not limited to the Ten Commandments.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Books of the Law.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Old Testament.
The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

Okay, back to your wiggling.

Click to expand...

The Ten Commandments were not the basis of rightiousness, they were the foundational requirements of the covenant. Righteous comes by grace through faith in Christ. The Law bore witness to the righteousness that was revealed in the gospel. The 3rd chapter of Romans expounds on this at length, a discussion that continues through chapter 8.

Dave L said:

Jesus fulfilled the Law (Ten Commandments = Old Covenant) on the cross and then abolished it replacing it with the New Covenant.

Click to expand...

Can you give me scripture please

Soyeong said:

Do you really think that those verses are saying that after the see has come we are free to go back to committing transgressions?

Click to expand...

Does the New Covenant say that? If not, neither do I.

Was Abraham free to commit transgressions? Christ preached the Gospel to Abraham.

Hank77 said:

Does the New Covenant say that? If not, neither do I.

Click to expand...

The issue is how to correctly interpret what the New Covenant says.

Was Abraham free to commit transgressions? Christ preached the Gospel to Abraham.

Click to expand...

Abraham heard God's voice, kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws (Genesis 26:5).

Devin P said:

The only way that we can sin, is if we break the law.

Click to expand...

Your opinion and my verse in response.
Romans 5:13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

Jesus Himself said that the law was not done away with, not until the heavens and the earth passes. He also tells us to sin no more. He wasn't saying be lawless and ignore God's law, He was saying do your best to uphold it, despite that you'll fail at times, get back up, place your faith in Me for your justification, but try your best to uphold it as best as you can.

Click to expand...

You're making Jesus say 'the law of Moses' which He did not. 'The law of sin and death' is still in effect and that's why everyone still dies, because they still sin.

James 1:22-25 - 22Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves. 23For anyone who hears the word but does not carry it out is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror,24and after observing himself goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom, and continues to do so—not being a forgetful hearer, but an effective doer—he will be blessed in what he does.

The law of freedom, is the Torah, the law of God. We can know this because of the many times it calls God's law freedom.

Click to expand...

And above, you appear to be hearing that we are to be a "doers of the Torah", but that's not what it says. For we are dealing here with the "law of freedom"....freedom FROM SIN, if we be "doers of the word".

So shall I keep your Torah continually forever and ever,
And I will walk in freedom: for I seek your precepts.
(Psalm 119:44-45)

Click to expand...

I'm not a messianic Christian personally and I am not physical Israel bound to the "letter of the law" in the OT either. I do understand the spirit of the law in Psalms. Something Jesus also understood, and it caused him as much trouble with the pharisees as I have with nominal Christianity today. Not trying to sound haughty with that, just feel it is an honest appraisal IMO.

ROM 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

I do admit, I'm assuming the Torah law above.

Cheylynn said:

Can you give me scripture please

Click to expand...

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. Please consider:

“And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Exodus 34:28

“And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.” Deuteronomy 4:13:

“When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.” Deuteronomy 9:9:

“So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.” Deuteronomy 9:15:

“There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,” I Kings 8:9

“And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.” I Kings 8:21

The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.

Consider “The ark of the covenant” that held the Ten Commandments (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)

Now, consider what Jeremiah says:

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33)

Now consider Christ introduced the New Covenant:

“In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”” (1 Corinthians 11:25)

“who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” (2 Corinthians 3:6)

Soyeong said:

Furthermore, you didn't answer my question. You interpret "fulfilling the Law of Christ" in a completely different way that you interpret "fulfilling the Law and the Prophets". In Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did to abolish God's eternal Law inspire of the fact that he directly said that he came not to abolish the Law in contrast with fulfilling it.

Click to expand...

Jesus fulfilled the Ten Commandments by fulfilling the Two Great Commandments in his life and on the cross. The Two remain, the Ten are forever gone as a covenant.

Soyeong said:

In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so do you think that we are abolishing the Law of Christ when we do that?

Click to expand...

Not the Two Great Commandments. Even though the Ten no longer remain as a covenant, we fulfill them by keeping the Two Great Commandments of love for God and people.

Saint Steven said:

Where does the title "the Ten Commandments" or any solid reference to the set of Ten appear in the NT?

Click to expand...

The rich young ruler I think.

~The Rich Young Man
MAR 10:17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
19 You know the commandments: 'Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'"
20 And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth."
21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

My question here is; Where in 'the commandments/torah' does it say anything about having too much in worldly goods, therefore give it all away?