On idols, icons, and idolatry

Al Masihi said:

Worshipping an image, which is not what orthodox do with icons or Catholics with statues.

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Define worshipping...?

As I reviewed responses (and understanding the political church's iconoclasitic controversy and resolution), I cannot help to reflect on how much time we spent on defining words. We argued about misuse of the word "idol" and then "what constitutes worshipping an idol?" when the 10 commandments don't even include that word or limit it to worship of the graven image. It simply says:

"And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." (Exodus 20:1-4)

Maybe God knew we would try to justify that graven images weren't idols and therefore tried to eliminate the whole controversy by just eliminating graven images, period.

Then, there was discussion about "covetousness." But, according to God, that would be a violation of a different type:

10th commandment: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." (Exodus 20:17) This affects our ability to love our neighbor as ourselves. When David coveted and then committed adultery with Bathsheba and then set up her husband for death (2 Sam 11-12), and God confronted David through Nathan, God said: "Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight....giving great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme...." God recognized that David coveted, committed adultery with, and killed the husband of Bathsheba. God didn't accuse him of worshipping something (Bathsheba) above Him or having a graven image. But the result was still that God imposed consequences on David's house, because he broke the commandment of the LORD.

Neogaia777 said:

Define worshipping...?

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The Glorification and adoration usually given to a god.

The images do not need to be 'worshipped' to be a violation of scripture or blasphemy.
The problem within Catholicism/Orthodoxy is not specifically with 'The Second Commandment' because:
I agree that it is highly unlikely that there are any 'christians', Catholic or otherwise, who actually believe their 'images/icons' are God (Mariolatry, Santeria and folk religions aside). As it is also true that - very few pagan worshippers actually believe their idols and images are the gods themselves, they knew their icons were 'representatives' of their pagan deities (Hindus and Buddhists for example).

The icons within Catholicism/Orthodoxy are mainly a violation of the Levitical laws regarding mediums, the priesthood, and a gross misunderstanding New Covenant.

Jesus replaced all 'mediums' : The Temple, The Priesthood, The Law, even Moses with Himself. Jesus is 'the' image of God - for He is God Himself. I am tolerant of artwork depicting scripture, even ok with art depicting Jesus - but none of this art/images/icons should be used/or deemed 'necessary' in any kind of 'religious ritual or worship' of Christ and God. Because to do so would put them in the category of mediums (and 'any' medium is a violation of the New Covenant).

'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God' (Leviticus 19:31)
'Moreover, Josiah removed the mediums and the spiritists and the necromancers and the idols and all the abominations that were seen in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, that he might confirm the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD' (2 Kings 23:24)
'When men tell you to consult the spirits of the dead and the spiritists who whisper and mutter, shouldn't a people consult their God instead? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? (Isaiah 8:19)
'The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever' (Hebrews chap.7)

There is no longer need of any other thing: ark, temple, priesthood, priests, representatives, images, icons, sacrifices... NOTHING is NECESSARY as a medium - other than Jesus Himself - to speak to or have a relationship with God The Father.

As Neogala said its interesting that 'media' means 'medium', and art is a medium.

A medium is something that is between you and the actual object. A medium is an image - an icon - a representative of something else.

zelosravioli said:

As said above media means medium, and art is a medium. A medium is something that is between you and the actual object. A medium is an image - an icon - a representative of something else.

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Icons are not treated as mediators to reach out to God.

zelosravioli said:

The images do not need to be 'worshipped' to be a violation of scripture or blasphemy.
The problem within Catholicism/Orthodoxy is not specifically with 'The Second Commandment' because:
It is unlikely that there are any 'christians', Catholic or otherwise, who worship or believe their 'images' are a god or God (Mariolatry, Santeria and folk religions aside). As it is also true that - very few pagan worshippers actually believed their idols and images were the gods themselves, they knew their icons were 'representatives' of their pagan deities (Hindus and Buddhists for example).

This problem within Catholicism/Orthodoxy is mainly a violation of the Levitical laws regarding mediums, the priesthood, and a gross misunderstanding New Covenant.

Jesus replaced all 'mediums' : The Temple, The Priesthood, The Law, even Moses with Himself. Jesus is 'the' image of God - for He is God Himself - and icons of Jesus are not God, nor should any 'images/icons be used/or deemed 'necessary' in any kind of 'religious ritual or worship' because that would puts them in the category of mediums (and 'any' medium is a violation of the New Covenant).

'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God' (Leviticus 19:31)
'Moreover, Josiah removed the mediums and the spiritists and the necromancers and the idols and all the abominations that were seen in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, that he might confirm the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD' (2 Kings 23:24)
'When men tell you to consult the spirits of the dead and the spiritists who whisper and mutter, shouldn't a people consult their God instead? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? (Isaiah 8:19)
'The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever' (Hebrews chap.7)

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Pagans do not commit Idolatry for simply having images o their gods, it’s because they worship another god instead of the one true God.

'Christians' commit idolatry by venerating icons and images.
"The seventh and last Ecumenical Council upheld the iconodules' postion in AD 787. They proclaimed: Icons... are to be kept in churches and honored with the same relative veneration as is shown to other material symbols..."

As I said above: ".. icons of Jesus are not God, nor should any 'images/icons be used/or deemed 'necessary' in any kind of 'religious ritual or worship' because that would put them in the category of mediums (and 'any' medium is a violation of the New Covenant).

Do you not see the violation of this principle?:
'For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus' (1Timothy 2:5)
In other words 'there is one medium between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus'. Nothing else is necessary nor required, because nothing is needed - that is the point of scripture. You add 'nothing' to scripture nor should you let 'anything' get between you and Christ. You can't add anything, and anything added has a high probability of 'becoming' needed (and such an addiction to icons is akin to idolatry).

Yet, the Catholic/Orthodox churchs sanction the use of icons, and quite often use icons as 'necessary' means to reach out to/petition God... (from #40)
"...The part I bolded is incorrect when referring to the Orthodox church...' (Lessthanperfect20 #46)

Incorrect?? Lessthanperfect, your own Orthodox references verify what I stated!!? (below)
Concerning the doctrinal significance of icons
Icons are necessary and essential because they protect the full and proper doctrine of the Incarnation….and so if flesh can be a medium for the Spirit, so can wood or paint, although in a different fashion….The seventh and last Ecumenical Council upheld the iconodules' postion in AD 787. They proclaimed: Icons... are to be kept in churches and honored with the same relative veneration as is shown to other material symbols... Concerning the teaching of icons. Venerating icons, having them in churches and homes, is what the Church teaches...

If something is 'necessary' and 'essential' it is no different than a 'medium'.

If I said, for example, that having a bouquet of flowers is 'necessary or essential' to pray or petition Christ, then it becomes a medium between me and Christ (if not simply superstitious, as in rosary beads and rabbits feet, and crystal balls...).

PaulCyp1 said:

"Icons" are not "idolatry". Statues are not "idolatry". Images are not "idolatry". WORSHIP of icons or statues or images or anything else other than God is idolatry. The definition of "idolatry" is "WORSHIP of anything or anyone other than God". In such a case, the worshipped items become idols. But if they are not WORSHIPPED, they are not idols, and no idolatry is taking place. Surely you cannot believe that members of such churches WORSHIP these inanimate objects instead of, or in addition to God?

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look at the sly way the issue is diverted totally ignoring the truth that GOD command ..dont MAKE THEM ..but lets just ignore god and justify it instead . unbelievable

Al Masihi said:

If that interpretation is to be taken all forms of pictures would be banned. It also doesn’t say image it says graven image, big difference. An image or statue of Mary used in Church is not a graven image because it is not worshipped above God.

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but it is given "worth " as an image - and you well know it and you well know the word veneration means "worship" - the thing that appalls about all these topics of discussion is the blatant embarrassing dishonesty -and God is watching, he will hold every person to account for EVERY idle word they speak

Alithis said:

but it is given "worth " as an image - and you well know it and you well know the word veneration means "worship" - the thing that appalls about all these topics of discussion is the blatant embarrassing dishonesty -and God is watching, he will hold every person to account for EVERY idle word they speak

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Veneration:

great respect; reverence.

Worship:

the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

Alithis said:

look at the sly way the issue is diverted totally ignoring the truth that GOD command ..dont MAKE THEM ..but lets just ignore god and justify it instead . unbelievable

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So then throw away your camera if that’s how you interpret the commandment and it also means your accusing Moses of Idolatry for making image on the Ark.

zelosravioli said:

(Zelosravioli wrote in #40).. Yet, the Catholic/Orthodox churchs sanction the use of icons, and quite often use icons as 'necessary' means to reach out to/petition God...

"...The part I bolded is incorrect when referring to the Orthodox church...' (Lessthanperfect20 #46)

Incorrect?? Your (Lessthanperfects) own Orthodox references (below) verify what I stated!!

Concerning the doctrinal significance of icons
Icons are necessary and essential because they protect the full and proper doctrine of the Incarnation….and so if flesh can be a medium for the Spirit, so can wood or paint, although in a different fashion….The seventh and last Ecumenical Council upheld the iconodules' postion in AD 787. They proclaimed: Icons... are to be kept in churches and honored with the same relative veneration as is shown to other material symbols...
Concerning the teaching of icons
Venerating icons, having them in churches and homes, is what the Church teaches...

If something is 'necessary' and 'essential' it is no different than a 'medium'.

If I simply say that having a chair, or wearing shoes is 'necessary or essential' to pray or petition Christ, then it becomes a medium between me and Christ (if not simply superstitious, as in rosary beads and rabbits feet, and crystal balls...).

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There’s a difference between a medium between God and man and something necessary.

Chris V++ said:

When I couldn't sell my house for several years it was recommended by some family that I plant a statue of St. Joseph upside down in my yard. Not that it should matter anyway but -upside down? You can buy these yard statutes on Ebay, Amazon, and Catholiccompany.com. Any idolatry here?? Or is this just garden-variety voodoo? (pun intended)

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I mentioned this earlier but it was quickly buried. Is using a statue of St. Joseph in this manner a form of idolatry? What purpose would the statue serve but to summon the presence of St. Joseph and secure the sale? What about the venerated crying statues of Mary in various churches around the world? Any idolatry in even wanting these to be anything but marketing hoaxes.

Al Masihi said:

The Glorification and adoration usually given to a god.

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Or admiration, or somehow elevate that thing in your heart...

Are you saying that having Idols in your heart is not important, and how objects and or images, especially involved in worship, can easily lead to that...

God Bless!

Al Masihi said:

So then throw away your camera if that’s how you interpret the commandment and it also means your accusing Moses of Idolatry for making image on the Ark.

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Look, the point of this should be that were all Idolaters, in some way shape or form or another...

The point of the ten commandments was not to keep them necessarily, but was to show the difference between us and God, in knowing how we miss the mark (by a long shot), to show our need for him (God) and his grace and mercy, and to point to Christ and the NC... And cause us to seek and cling to him (God)...

Were all Idolaters...

God Bless!

zelosravioli said:

If something is 'necessary' and 'essential' it is no different than a 'medium'.

If I simply say that having a chair, or wearing shoes is 'necessary or essential' to pray or petition Christ, then it becomes a medium between me and Christ (if not simply superstitious, as in rosary beads and rabbits feet, and crystal balls...).

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me·di·um
ˈmēdēəm/
noun
noun: medium; plural noun: media; plural noun: mediums

1. 1.
   an agency or means of doing something.
   "using the latest technology as a medium for job creation"
   synonyms: means, method, way, form, agency, avenue, channel, vehicle, organ, instrument, mechanism
   "using technology as a medium for job creation"
   • a means by which something is communicated or expressed.
     "here the Welsh language is the medium of instruction"
     synonyms: means, method, way, form, agency, avenue, channel, vehicle, organ, instrument, mechanism
     "using technology as a medium for job creation"
2. 2.

And other definitions that have zero bearing on the discussion.

Icons are not used as a way (means, method, way, form, agency, avenue, channel, vehicle, organ, instrument, mechanism) to pray to Christ. They are used to remind us of Him, heaven, saints, and angels. Reminders don't constitute a necessity. One can pray to Christ, or conduct a Divine Liturgy without icons.

The 7th Ecumenical Council stated that they were essential and necessary to assist in fulfilling our salvation (process of theosis - process of become more Christ-like as we attempt our best to live a Christian life).

This begs another question to you though. Do you pick and choose which Ecumenical Councils, and parts of each that you ascribe to? All of the Bishops of Christendom came together to make that ruling in a conciliar manner in 787 AD. I would have a close look at the history involved here to truly become objective. The vast majority of Protestant denominations have broken away from a Catholic church which had already changed significantly by the time Luther started the reformation. Please have a look at the history, it tells so much.

zelosravioli said:

(if not simply superstitious, as in rosary beads and rabbits feet, and crystal balls...).

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Also, the Orthodox church uses a prayer rope. It's symbolic, and started with St. Anthony of Egypt - one of the first monks in Christendom. He is quoted by St. Athanasius (who helped to preserve the Christianity we know today from heretics) as saying that the prayer rope beads were knotted 7 times to prevent the demons from untying the knots, and the knots themselves were used as a physical means to pray to Christ unceasingly as instructed by St. Paul. The rope prevented the demons from distracting him from prayer.

Again, an item that assists us in prayer to Christ.

Al Masihi said:

Icons are not treated as mediators to reach out to God.

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So your simply superstitious?
If the icons and ropes are getting between you and Christ - then they are mediums.
A priest was simply a medium. God could hear their prayers regardless without a temple or a priesthood, but the priesthood, like the Law and sacrifices were an image of something else - Jesus.

Orthodoxy deems these icons necessary - I suppose if they didn't they wouldn't have them. You could 'say' you don't need a hat and a coat every time you go outside, but if every time you go outside you wear a coat and hat, then you believe you need a coat and hat, and that they are necessary.