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Hi expos4ever, nice to see you again, welcome to another thread. Some comments for your consideration below.
What in your view, do you think is out of control?
Sounds like a strawman argument to me. No one is saying that God's 10 commandments are good and they are Abolished as there is no scripture for this. Some people teach this that do not know the laws and their purpose under the OLD COVENANT and misunderstand the purpose of God's LAW (10 Commandments) in the NEW.
Sorry brother God's WORD does not teach the 10 Commandments are abolished. See all the connecting scriptures in the OP with JESUS, PAUL, PETER, JOHN and JAMES all teaching the same thing.
Another strawman, argument or misunderstanding. No one is teaching that the NEW COVENANT promise of HEBREWS 8:10-12 is about memorizing the 10 Commandments. God's WORD teaches we are saved by FAITH that workd by LOVE and that it is LOVE that fulfills God's LAW in those who BELIEVE his WORD. We are promised a NEW HEART to LOVE and LOVE is the fulfilling [doing] of God's LAW in those who BELIEVE. This is what Paul is teaching in ROMANS 13:8-10 and Jesus is teaching in MATTHEW 22:36-40 and James in JAMES 2:8-11. We need t be Born again to LOVE with a NEW HEART. LOVE is the fulfilling God's LAW. If you LOVE your neighbor you will not KILL him right? This is why JESUS says to his followers, IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS because on the two great commandments of LOVE, hang all the law and the prophets. The NEW COVENANT is LOVE written on the heart to walk as God walked and to LOVE as Jesus first LOVED us.
I do not think anyone has said that the LAW is good and remains in force as a prescriptive code. The purpose of Gods LAW is to give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN and RINGTEOUSNESS, it is the teacher that leads all to Christ that we might be justified by Faith.
No my friend, God's LAW does not only give JEWS a KNOWLEDGE of SIN. Maybe it is best to let God's WORD to the talking for this section...
ROMANS 3:9-20
[9], What then? are we better than they? No, in no way: FOR WE HAVE PROVED BOTH JEW AND GREEK, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN;
[10], As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTOUESS NO NOT ONE:
[11], There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
[12], They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.
[13[, Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14], Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15], Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16], Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17], And the way of peace have they not known:
[18], There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHATSOEVER THINGS THE LAW SAYS, IT SAYS TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW; that EVERY mouth may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.
[20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.
ROMANS 2:12-13
[12], FOR AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED WITHOUT THE LAW SHALL PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Why?
ROMANS 6:23 [23], FOR THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yep this is the role of God's LAW in the NEW COVENANT. To give us a KNOWLEDGE of sin and rightouesness. (Romans 3:20; Romans 2:13; Psalms 119:172)
God's LAW (10 Commandments is the standard of the judgment for God's people. Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without the law shall perish without the law; WHY? Romans 6:23 because the wages of sin is death because they have not excepted the gift of God's dear son. As many as have sinned in the LAW (God's professed people) shall be judged by the LAW.
...............
So NO my friend, God's LAW does not only give JEWS a KNOWLEDGE of SIN. It is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS for the whole world and determines our salvation if broken weather your a JEW (God's Church) or GENTILE.
................
ROMANS 2:6-13
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[7], To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
[8], But to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[9], Tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[10], But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
[11], For there is no respect of persons with God.
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Hope this helps.
To keep things under control, I will address bits and pieces at a time.
What in your view, do you think is out of control?
First, as a general principle, it must be agreed (how could right-thinking people not agree) that to affirm that the Law is a good thing is not necessarily to affirm that it remains in force. This is simple logic, and no reasonable person could argue this point. Training wheels "are a good thing", but once I have learned to ride my bike, they come off.
Sounds like a strawman argument to me. No one is saying that God's 10 commandments are good and they are Abolished as there is no scripture for this. Some people teach this that do not know the laws and their purpose under the OLD COVENANT and misunderstand the purpose of God's LAW (10 Commandments) in the NEW.
3. Of course Paul says that the doers of the Law will be justified. But, again, we need to think carefully and rigorously. Remember the context: Paul is scolding the disobedient Jew of His day. He can, of course, chide such a Jew for not obeying the Law while also believing that, as of the cross, the Law comes to an end. Which is, in my opinion, the clear teaching of Paul (and Jesus, as well, but in a more subtle way).
Sorry brother God's WORD does not teach the 10 Commandments are abolished. See all the connecting scriptures in the OP with JESUS, PAUL, PETER, JOHN and JAMES all teaching the same thing.
6. This business of the law being written on the heart and mind is a little misleading; it beggars credulity to imagine that Paul is saying the written code is somehow "memorized" and still obeyed as a prescriptive code. This would be a really silly argument - anyone, at any time, could "write the law on their heart" in this simple "commit it to memory" sense. Remember what cannot be denied: Paul rejects "serving according to the Letter of the Law" in Romans 7. So it would be silly of him to also believe that we are to simply commit the Law to memory and still treat it as a prescriptive code. Paul, I claim, is talking about we now get the Spirit who guides us, according to the general principles of the Law of course, but not by its letter.
Another strawman, argument or misunderstanding. No one is teaching that the NEW COVENANT promise of HEBREWS 8:10-12 is about memorizing the 10 Commandments. God's WORD teaches we are saved by FAITH that workd by LOVE and that it is LOVE that fulfills God's LAW in those who BELIEVE his WORD. We are promised a NEW HEART to LOVE and LOVE is the fulfilling [doing] of God's LAW in those who BELIEVE. This is what Paul is teaching in ROMANS 13:8-10 and Jesus is teaching in MATTHEW 22:36-40 and James in JAMES 2:8-11. We need t be Born again to LOVE with a NEW HEART. LOVE is the fulfilling God's LAW. If you LOVE your neighbor you will not KILL him right? This is why JESUS says to his followers, IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS because on the two great commandments of LOVE, hang all the law and the prophets. The NEW COVENANT is LOVE written on the heart to walk as God walked and to LOVE as Jesus first LOVED us.
9. This is what I am referring to in my general claim at the very beginning - just because the Law is "good" does not mean it remain eternally in force as a prescriptive code.
I do not think anyone has said that the LAW is good and remains in force as a prescriptive code. The purpose of Gods LAW is to give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN and RINGTEOUSNESS, it is the teacher that leads all to Christ that we might be justified by Faith.
10. God's law does indeed give the Jew the knowledge of sin. But, again, this is not a warrant to conclude it remains in force since this fact about the Law does not preclude the possibility that something else might come along to give us all knowledge of sin. And Paul puts the Spirit in that role.
No my friend, God's LAW does not only give JEWS a KNOWLEDGE of SIN. Maybe it is best to let God's WORD to the talking for this section...
ROMANS 3:9-20
[9], What then? are we better than they? No, in no way: FOR WE HAVE PROVED BOTH JEW AND GREEK, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN;
[10], As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTOUESS NO NOT ONE:
[11], There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
[12], They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.
[13[, Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14], Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15], Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16], Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17], And the way of peace have they not known:
[18], There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHATSOEVER THINGS THE LAW SAYS, IT SAYS TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW; that EVERY mouth may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.
[20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.
ROMANS 2:12-13
[12], FOR AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED WITHOUT THE LAW SHALL PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Why?
ROMANS 6:23 [23], FOR THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yep this is the role of God's LAW in the NEW COVENANT. To give us a KNOWLEDGE of sin and rightouesness. (Romans 3:20; Romans 2:13; Psalms 119:172)
God's LAW (10 Commandments is the standard of the judgment for God's people. Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without the law shall perish without the law; WHY? Romans 6:23 because the wages of sin is death because they have not excepted the gift of God's dear son. As many as have sinned in the LAW (God's professed people) shall be judged by the LAW.
...............
So NO my friend, God's LAW does not only give JEWS a KNOWLEDGE of SIN. It is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS for the whole world and determines our salvation if broken weather your a JEW (God's Church) or GENTILE.
................
ROMANS 2:6-13
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[7], To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
[8], But to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[9], Tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[10], But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
[11], For there is no respect of persons with God.
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Hope this helps.
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