When do the last days end?

DamianWarS said:

Yet the end has not come.

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We are told that: “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled”.

claninja said:

Gog is the chief prince. So only 1 being is attacking israel?

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Who are Gog and Magog supposed to be attacking, in the future, and why?

Ostensibly, Gog and Magog are attacking Israel due their "chosen by God" status of being God's people and as a direct attack against God, correct? As Jesus said, if they hate me they will hate you..

It's either that or Gog and Magog are attacking Israel and being allowed to attack Israel, in the future, due to their unbelieving status and as a punishment to them for being unbelievers and rejecting God's plan for them.

Has absolutely no one noticed neither of those scenarios can possibly be applied to a bunch of atheists living in the middle east in 2020?

We, followers of the Messiah, are Israel, we are following the Jewish faith. We who have circumcised hearts, are Jews. It doesn't matter what nationality we are, faith is not based in nationality now.

The physical nation brought forth Jesus and then made the choice of continuing in the faith (by choosing to follow the Messiah) or walk away from God. The faith was opened up to the nations, to every one, just as prophesied in the Old Testament. An entire generation was given to physical Jews/physical Israel to continue in the faith by following Messiah, and then God put an end to temple worship and punished the unbelieving Jews for their refusal.

Then God moved out.

Israel today is a nation which, while living in this world transcends this world, and as such has its residency covering the entirety of the earth...

exactly how is Gog and Magog going to attack that? It can't be attacked.

Everyone in Jerusalem celebrate and shout! Your king has won a victory, and he is coming to you. He is humble and rides on a donkey; he comes on the colt of a donkey. I, the Lord, will take away war chariots and horses from Israel and Jerusalem. Bows that were made for battle will be broken. I will bring peace to nations, and your king will rule from sea to sea. His kingdom will reach from the Euphrates River across the earth.

This is today, so how exactly is this Kingdom supposed to be attacked? Clearly it can't be, so this isn't what or why Gog and Magog is attacking - in the future. It can't be because of hatred toward God's chosen people.

So that leaves punishment of physical Israel for not accepting the Messiah or God's plan for them.

However, that can't be why God is allowing Gog and Magog to be attacking physical Israel either because God already punished them as a nation once, and punishment went to the nation who saw the blood of Jesus on their hands, in real time.

To punish them as a nation again, 2,000 or more years later is to punish people arbitrarily really, and wouldn't be any different than God allowing Turkey, for instance, to be attacked for not accepting the Christ. It just wouldn't happen because it makes no sense.

If you say it's different for physical Israel because they were once God's people, then why isn't God attacking them every generation?

No, at this point the Judgement is all that is necessary, and for them it will be like for everyone else - based on their decision for Christ. God isn't just mean as to punish them time after time after time for doing nothing worse than what the majority of people on earth do.

So it's not punishment for their rejection...

Therefore, there is no reasonable reason for physical "Israel" to be attacked now.. and no reasonable way to attack "Israel", the Israel of God.

So why hammer on the idea of some future attack? If it makes no sense and we've seen an historical fulfillment why just expect it to happen again, arbitrarily, because the first one didn't seem to be the fulfillment based on our ideas...

joshua 1 9 said:

We are told that: “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled”.

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So where is the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory?

claninja said:

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Peter states he was living the in the last days. It appears the last days started during Peter's generation.

When do these last days end? Before the millenium, during the millenium, or after the millenium?

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There is no millennium. The time line is: Christ can return any day now. Followed by the resurrection of the Just. Followed by the rapture into heaven. Followed by the resurrection of the wicked into judgement and hell. The universe explodes with a great noise and fervent heat. God creates the new heavens and earth where we live forever enjoying his glory.

claninja said:

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Peter states he was living the in the last days. It appears the last days started during Peter's generation.

When do these last days end? Before the millenium, during the millenium, or after the millenium?

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I've taken it to mean that the spirit poured out on all flesh is a bit more grandiose in terms of extent. Whereas the spirit being poured out during Pentecost was the indwelling spirit specific to each believer. The spirit can be seen being poured out prophesied in God's word in Genesis during the Flood narrative. Noah sends out the dove three times. In like manner, we have seen the first as the Flood, where the spirit was poured out (water), at Pentecost where the spirit indwells in the believer (the indwelling Holy Ghost), then in the future where the spirit poured out will be fire. At least that's how I've understood it.

(Water)Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

(Indwelling)John 7:37-39 37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

(Fire)Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

It wasn't a secret that people of the time thought that they were in the last days. To what extent, that varies, as it is relative to the person and the events. After all why would Jesus come, take away the sins of the world and establish a church that wouldn't be around but one generation? Compound that with the ideology that the letters to the churches are symbolic "eras" of the church, one could apply the last days theme to each era that the church has gone through.
We would currently be in the era of Laodicea. This is easily seen with many evangelistic programs about empowering your life and being a good person rather than honoring and glorifying God. Too much "lukewarm" behavior where no one fully commits to the ideals and full gravity of a mighty, majestic, worthy of all praise and honor KING who sits upon the throne, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Seriously. Ask yourself, do I talk about Jesus at work, or do I not for fear of losing my job? Are you a weekend warrior Christian?

The last days will end when the Father has appointed them to. No one knows but him. We may guess and be in the general ballpark, but it is best to just be ready at all season of the day. You never know what hour the Lord cometh.

DamianWarS said:

So where is the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory?

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If the world was created over the course of billions of years, these may be the last days. If God will learn how to create a better universe, it is likely he will show it. We have seen technological advances on earth, diseases are cured, there is greater access to information, farmers can grow more food per acre, the Holy Spirit teaches many and God is glorified.

DamianWarS said:

So where is the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory?

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Don't they usually use a Sept date for the coming of the Lord? Could be in the year 2029. I think that is the 2,000 year anniversary of the church. The dates for the degrasse comet are very interesting. First on Friday before the Passover begins. And the second time on Resurrection Sunday. Very exact and precise to the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Luke 21:26 "Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.…"

Dave L said:

There is no millennium. The time line is: Christ can return any day now. Followed by the resurrection of the Just. Followed by the rapture into heaven. Followed by the resurrection of the wicked into judgement and hell. The universe explodes with a great noise and fervent heat. God creates the new heavens and earth where we live forever enjoying his glory.

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think that's a very plausible description of Revelation 20:9 onwards

Think you could still accept a "Millennium" as "One Biblical Day" (per 2 Peter 3) in the life of the Church. One phase or stage of the existence of the same.

Chinchilla said:

It's future , people will live longer than Adam in the Kingdom , child is be considered to be 100 year old . Isaiah 65:20

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I agree with you, yet my point was that not all of the same people satan deceived before being bound, are all of the same people he deceives once he is loosed. Obviously anyone still dead once he is bound, none of these are the people he deceives when he is loosed. Yet these would be some of the people he deceived before being cast into the pit and bound.

Adam almost lived an entire thousand years as a mortal in this age. If that was already possible earlier on in this age, it's not unreasonable to conclude mortals can live an entire thousand years and then some, in the beginning of the next age.

MyGivenNameIsKeith said:

I've taken it to mean that the spirit poured out on all flesh is a bit more grandiose in terms of extent. Whereas the spirit being poured out during Pentecost was the indwelling spirit specific to each believer. The spirit can be seen being poured out prophesied in God's word in Genesis during the Flood narrative. Noah sends out the dove three times. In like manner, we have seen the first as the Flood, where the spirit was poured out (water), at Pentecost where the spirit indwells in the believer (the indwelling Holy Ghost), then in the future where the spirit poured out will be fire. At least that's how I've understood it.

(Water)Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

(Indwelling)John 7:37-39 37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

(Fire)Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

It wasn't a secret that people of the time thought that they were in the last days. To what extent, that varies, as it is relative to the person and the events. After all why would Jesus come, take away the sins of the world and establish a church that wouldn't be around but one generation? Compound that with the ideology that the letters to the churches are symbolic "eras" of the church, one could apply the last days theme to each era that the church has gone through.
We would currently be in the era of Laodicea. This is easily seen with many evangelistic programs about empowering your life and being a good person rather than honoring and glorifying God. Too much "lukewarm" behavior where no one fully commits to the ideals and full gravity of a mighty, majestic, worthy of all praise and honor KING who sits upon the throne, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Seriously. Ask yourself, do I talk about Jesus at work, or do I not for fear of losing my job? Are you a weekend warrior Christian?

The last days will end when the Father has appointed them to. No one knows but him. We may guess and be in the general ballpark, but it is best to just be ready at all season of the day. You never know what hour the Lord cometh.

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I believe the refiners fire is the same as the indwelling...

What does the fire do but to purify us in order we stand before him on that Day.. In short, its the process of sanctification in the believer...

How do you see it referring to something else?

Chinchilla said:

It's future , people will live longer than Adam in the Kingdom , child is be considered to be 100 year old . Isaiah 65:20

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Adam lived 930 years. Right now there are people that live to be 90. So even in the next 20 years people could live to be 100 as the Bible says.

https://www.sciencealert.com/researchers-calculate-life-expectancy-set-to-pass-90-for-the-first-time

HTacianas said:

Yes. It was. There is a lengthy article describing the history of it at newadvent.org. Search "chiliasm".

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You are not required to combine & con-flate and con-fuse the "Kingdom" with the "Millennium"

The latter (Millennium) is just one stage or phase or age of the former (Kingdom of God & Christ = Church) which has existed continuously since John the Baptist identified Jesus as the Messiah to all the Jews present on the banks of the Jordan in about 28 AD.

The Kingdom = Church was "born" and expanded considerably as it "grew up" until, in its heyday after Constantine, it was the socially dominant belief system throughout Europe & North Africa and on into the Middle East and even beyond.

The Millennium ends (Rev 20:7), but obviously the Kingdom = Church does not, or else Gog & Magog would have no holy saintly opponents to antagonize during the "little time" (Greek mikros chronos) after the Millennium until Final Judgement (Rev 20:7-9).

Presumably you were a teenager once. You've grown out of that phase of your life. Yet you're still alive, and it's the very same you. Your teenage years came to end, but you have yet endured alive. Ultimately, you & yours will be amongst those bullied by Gog & Magog. But some faithful remnant will survive all the way until fire comes from the sky on Final Judgement Day.

Millennium = "one Biblical day" in the life of the Church as Kingdom of God & Christ on earth

claninja said:

Another possible option: Ezekiel 39:1-20 is about Gog and magog attacking an Israel that is already in the land of Israel, making it future to Ezekiel 39:21-39.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29 notice " I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob"

Psalm 85:1 was written after Israel returned from exile
You showed favor to Your land, O LORD; You restored the fortunes of Jacob

Ending with the holy spirit being poured out.
Ezekiel 39:29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

Acts 2:17
“ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.


In summary Ezekiel 39:1-20 future to Ezekiel 39:21-29

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After thinking on this some more I see no reason to change my initial position, that verse 29 can't be fulfilled until Gog and his multitude are dealt with by God first.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

The heathen meant in verse 23 are obviously the same heathen meant in verse 21.The judgment the heathen sees in verse 21 is the judgment dealing with Gog and his multitude. Chronologically then, verse 29 is meaning after verse 23. I don't see how your interpretation can possibly work. Your interpretation has events chronologically out of order as far as I can tell.


Look at verse 24, clearly chronologically meaning after verse 21.


Ezekiel 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

This shows He hid His face from them all the way up until He deals with Gog and his multitude.

claninja said:

So when do the last days occur, before or after the millennium?

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well, surely you'd agree, that St. Peter was speaking in Acts 2 before the onset of the glorious Millennium of Rev 20?

So, then, the "last days" of which he spoke were his own (as many other NT verses attest also), up until the Millennium = defeat of the Beast (= pagan empire, converted in the 4th century AD) in Rev 19…

and/or at least until the defeat of Babylon (= apostate Jerusalem, successfully besieged in 70 AD) in Rev 18...

Moreover, if you consider the whole entire 1000 year Millennium as "one Biblical Day" (per 2 Pet 3), then St. Peter's "last day_S" remark could carry human history all the way on through the Millennium, through the "little time" afterwards, until Final Judgement Day...

so, maybe, all views are correct?

If so, "Last Day_S" (plural) covers the couple of thousand years then still remaining in human history on earth, from the days of Jesus & the Apostles in the 1st century AD, through the fall of Jerusalem, conversion of the pagan empire, medieval heyday of Christianity during the thousand year Byzantine empire, through the increasingly secular society afterwards from 1453 AD through today and for a "Biblically fleeting" time yet remaining from now until Final Judgement (= "ETA Biblically immanently") ???

Erik Nelson said:

You are not required to combine & con-flate and con-fuse the "Kingdom" with the "Millennium"

The latter (Millennium) is just one stage or phase or age of the former (Kingdom of God & Christ = Church) which has existed continuously since John the Baptist identified Jesus as the Messiah to all the Jews present on the banks of the Jordan in about 28 AD.

The Kingdom = Church was "born" and expanded considerably as it "grew up" until, in its heyday after Constantine, it was the socially dominant belief system throughout Europe & North Africa and on into the Middle East and even beyond.

The Millennium ends (Rev 20:7), but obviously the Kingdom = Church does not, or else Gog & Magog would have no holy saintly opponents to antagonize during the "little time" (Greek mikros chronos) after the Millennium until Final Judgement (Rev 20:7-9).

Presumably you were a teenager once. You've grown out of that phase of your life. Yet you're still alive, and it's the very same you. Your teenage years came to end, but you have yet endured alive. Ultimately, you & yours will be amongst those bullied by Gog & Magog. But some faithful remnant will survive all the way until fire comes from the sky on Final Judgement Day.

Millennium = "one Biblical day" in the life of the Church as Kingdom of God & Christ on earth

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From your post it's difficult to determine where exactly you are placing the millennium then. At least it's difficult for me anyway. Are you placing it before or after the 2nd coming?

Dave L said:

There is no millennium. The time line is: Christ can return any day now. Followed by the resurrection of the Just. Followed by the rapture into heaven. Followed by the resurrection of the wicked into judgement and hell. The universe explodes with a great noise and fervent heat. God creates the new heavens and earth where we live forever enjoying his glory.

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In that case I guess that means we need to tear numerous Scriptures from our Bibles and toss them into the trash. Even though these numerous Scriptures say otherwise. But I guess you know better than these Scriptures do. You are obviously basing your conclusions on one testament alone in this case, rather than both testaments together. IOW you have both testaments contradicting one another.

joshua 1 9 said:

Adam lived 930 years. Right now there are people that live to be 90. So even in the next 20 years people could live to be 100 as the Bible says.

https://www.sciencealert.com/researchers-calculate-life-expectancy-set-to-pass-90-for-the-first-time

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Yes, but would anyone consider them to be mere children at that age? Obviously, even though people could live as long as a hundred in the next 20 years, they would still be at the end of their lives, and not that they were at the beginning of their lives instead, as in still youthful. And besides, numerous people have already lived to be a hundred. They didn't live very long past that though. When they died they would have been thought of as rather old and not rather youthful instead.

DavidPT said:

After thinking on this some more I see no reason to change my initial position, that verse 29 can't be fulfilled until Gog and his multitude are dealt with by God first.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

The heathen meant in verse 23 are obviously the same heathen meant in verse 21.The judgment the heathen sees in verse 21 is the judgment dealing with Gog and his multitude. Chronologically then, verse 29 is meaning after verse 23. I don't see how your interpretation can possibly work. Your interpretation has events chronologically out of order as far as I can tell.


Look at verse 24, clearly chronologically meaning after verse 21.


Ezekiel 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

This shows He hid His face from them all the way up until He deals with Gog and his multitude.

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Ezekiel 39:21-24 looks back on the earlier, prior exile & captivity of "Israel"

Apparently, God's wondrous defeat of "Gog" (Ezekiel 39:1-20) will somehow finally at long last convince "Israel" and the "nations" that, given God's miraculous Power, the fact that "Israel" was ever defeated must imply that God had stopped supporting them.

Then, the main story of Gog's downfall picks back up, continuing from 39:25-29, through to the end of the chapter.

Think it's fairly clear that vv. 21-24 are just an interjection, relating how the amazing defeat of God will convince everybody, "Israel" and "nations / gentiles", of God's supra-natural, supra-human power.

But otherwise the story is clear & flows smoothly, Gog invades, God defeats Gog, God's power amazes all, God restores "Israel".

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From a Christian perspective, "Gog & Magog" = Rev 20:7-9...

"Israel" = true spiritual Israel = Church & Christendom
"nations" = everybody outside "Israel" = everyone outside the Church & Christendom

Offer that, if the Church = true spiritual "temple"...

and if the "temple" resides in "Jerusalem" surrounding the "temple"...

that true spiritual "Jerusalem" = Christian society surrounding the Church ???

If so, then "Gog & Magog" invading and attacking "Jerusalem" the "beloved city" = organized onslaught vs. Christian society surrounding the Church = spiritual temple inside of spiritual Jerusalem ???

DavidPT said:

From your post it's difficult to determine where exactly you are placing the millennium then. At least it's difficult for me anyway. Are you placing it before or after the 2nd coming?

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Well, IDK how to identify the 2C.

Currently, I understand that there are kinda sorta three 2Cs:

• defeat of Babylon (Rev 18) = 70 AD fall of Jerusalem = some sort of advent of a Day of Wrath (Josephus reports wondrous Angelic hosts seen in the clouds over the city)
• defeat of Beast (Rev 19) = 4th century AD conversion of pagan empire = another sort of advent (Constantine reported a wondrous astral sign of the cross in the sky over Italy)
• defeat of Gog & Magog (Rev 20) = future event precipitating Final Judgement (all humans will notice the "Star Wars - Force Awakens > blasting of Hosnian Prime" fire from the skies all over earth worldwide)

if I had to choose one to be "the" full final actual factual physical corporeal true totally genuine hard tangible 2C...

then I'd obviously have to identify the Great White Throne (Rev 20) as that of God, to which God elevated Christ, to arrive back on earth in glory.

If so, then the others are some sort of prefigurations of the "real deal" on Final Judgement Day