Was 1948 the Regathering of Israel in Bible Prophecy?

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Biblewriter

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What part of Matthew 1:1, and Matthew 3:9, and Galatians 3:16, and Matthew 21:42-43, and Titus 3:9 do you not understand?

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I understand and wholly believe EVERY ONE of these scriptures. But you deny the end time restoration of the ancient nation of Israel, which is explicitly promised in too many scriptures to count.
 
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BABerean2

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But you deny the end time restoration of the ancient nation of Israel, which is explicitly promised in too many scriptures to count.

Like the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8...

.
 
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jgr

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A will and testament is a document subject to revision, up to the time of death. But a promisary note continues to be in effect, even after the promisor has died. Just try to take possession of a mortgaged home after the "owner" has died. You will quickly find that the REAL owner is the mortgage holder, and you cannot actually inherit the home until you have paid off the mortgage.

So, a change in a will and testament is not a lie. But an attempt to change a promise to which no conditions were attached is a breach of contract, and is punishable by law.

You are falsely pretending that everything in the Old Testament is part of the "Old will and testament," and therefore no longer applies. But this is completely false, as is clearly pointed out in numerous [laces in the New Testament. For it repeatedly insists that the old unconditional promises still apply, and even bases our own hope on the unconditional nature of the promises of God.

Still waiting.

Is Hebrews 8:6 referring to a will and testament, or to a promissory note?

Is Galatians 3:16 referring to a will and testament, or to a promissory note?
 
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Biblewriter

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Still waiting.

Is Hebrews 8:6 referring to a will and testament, or to a promissory note?

Is Galatians 3:16 referring to a will and testament, or to a promissory note?
I already agreed that in some places, this Greek word could be properly translated as a will or a testament. I am not going to get into a point-by-point debate. For you have already clearly demonstrated that your intent is to use this as an excuse to deny that the unconditional promises God made will be kept. No matter how you twist this, you cannot get around two undeniable facts.

1 MANY of the promises made in the Old Testament were stated in unconditional terms.
2 Since God knew at the time He made these promises, what He would do in the future, then He knew beforehand if He were going to change these promises.

These two facts are UNDENIABLE, then if God is not going to actually keep every one of these unconditional promises, He lied when He made them.

There is simply no way to twist your way out of this NECESSARY conclusion. Your doctrine makes God out to be a liar.
 
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BABerean2

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ebedmelech

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I already agreed that in some places, this Greek word could be properly translated as a will or a testament. I am not going to get into a point-by-point debate. For you have already clearly demonstrated that your intent is to use this as an excuse to deny that the unconditional promises God made will be kept. No matter how you twist this, you cannot get around two undeniable facts.

1 MANY of the promises made in the Old Testament were stated in unconditional terms.
2 Since God knew at the time He made these promises, what He would do in the future, then He knew beforehand if He were going to change these promises.

These two facts are UNDENIABLE, then if God is not going to actually keep every one of these unconditional promises, He lied when He made them.

There is simply no way to twist your way out of this NECESSARY conclusion. Your doctrine makes God out to be a liar.
There's nothing to get around Biblewriter! Have you ever read Ephesians 2:11-22? It simply refutes your thinking because it clearly says Gentile believers are no longer strangers and aliens...but FELLOW CITIZENS!

The Israel of God...which Paul is perpetuating here is made up of Jews and Gentiles. Just as Paul reapetedly says THERE IS NO DIFERENCE..you go the other way and say there is. Your reasoning just flatly unscriptural.
 
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jgr

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I already agreed that in some places, this Greek word could be properly translated as a will or a testament. I am not going to get into a point-by-point debate. For you have already clearly demonstrated that your intent is to use this as an excuse to deny that the unconditional promises God made will be kept. No matter how you twist this, you cannot get around two undeniable facts.

1 MANY of the promises made in the Old Testament were stated in unconditional terms.
2 Since God knew at the time He made these promises, what He would do in the future, then He knew beforehand if He were going to change these promises.

These two facts are UNDENIABLE, then if God is not going to actually keep every one of these unconditional promises, He lied when He made them.

There is simply no way to twist your way out of this NECESSARY conclusion. Your doctrine makes God out to be a liar.

It is abundantly evident what doctrine it is that labels God a liar. Any doctrine that argues in defiance and denial of God's explicit declarations under His New Testament, the only Testament in force and effect, that He has appointed His Son as the complete and exclusive Fulfillment and Heir of His promises and bequests (Galatians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Hebrews 1:1,2; Hebrews 9:15-17); qualifies as a doctrine that labels God a liar.

The root issue is not difficult to recognize. Since its beginnings, dispensationalism has incessantly and loudly proclaimed that it is Israel that is the fulfillment and heir of a vast array of God's promises and bequests. One need only read and hear a small fraction of dispensationalism's prodigious prophetic output to recognize that Israel is the chief cornerstone in the foundation of the dispensational prophetic edifice.

No one, not even Christ Himself, is permitted to displace Israel as the anointed recipient of that which dispensationalism believes it is entitled to. In any and every instance whenever it appears that Israel's entitlements are being questioned, charges such as “calling God a liar”, “anti-Semitic”, and a variety of other epithets are directed at the perceived offender. It is the equivalent of identity politics within the church of God. Thus Christ is denied His own entire, rightful, and exclusive entitlements as Fulfillment and Heir of all of God's promises and bequests.

The reason is self-evident. Israel's removal as the anointed recipient is the equivalent of the removal of dispensationalism's chief cornerstone, and the consequent and unavoidable collapse of the edifice which it supports. The result is effectively dispensational detonation, and the disappearance of a pervasive, not to mention lucrative, presence and influence within the Church.

But Scripture is unequivocal in its declarations, notwithstanding the denials directed at it.

Revelation 19:10
“...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”

Israel does not substitute for Jesus.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

There is no substitute for “all”.

In summation of which, Scripture declares:
Colossians 3:11
“...Christ is all, and in all


It's all about Him.
 
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Biblewriter

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It is abundantly evident what doctrine it is that labels God a liar. Any doctrine that argues in defiance and denial of God's explicit declarations under His New Testament, the only Testament in force and effect, that He has appointed His Son as the complete and exclusive Fulfillment and Heir of His promises and bequests (Galatians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Hebrews 1:1,2; Hebrews 9:15-17); qualifies as a doctrine that labels God a liar.

The root issue is not difficult to recognize. Since its beginnings, dispensationalism has incessantly and loudly proclaimed that it is Israel that is the fulfillment and heir of a vast array of God's promises and bequests. One need only read and hear a small fraction of dispensationalism's prodigious prophetic output to recognize that Israel is the chief cornerstone in the foundation of the dispensational prophetic edifice.

No one, not even Christ Himself, is permitted to displace Israel as the anointed recipient of that which dispensationalism believes it is entitled to. In any and every instance whenever it appears that Israel's entitlements are being questioned, charges such as “calling God a liar”, “anti-Semitic”, and a variety of other epithets are directed at the perceived offender. It is the equivalent of identity politics within the church of God. Thus Christ is denied His own entire, rightful, and exclusive entitlements as Fulfillment and Heir of all of God's promises and bequests.

The reason is self-evident. Israel's removal as the anointed recipient is the equivalent of the removal of dispensationalism's chief cornerstone, and the consequent and unavoidable collapse of the edifice which it supports. The result is effectively dispensational detonation, and the disappearance of a pervasive, not to mention lucrative, presence and influence within the Church.

But Scripture is unequivocal in its declarations, notwithstanding the denials directed at it.

Revelation 19:10
“...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”

Israel does not substitute for Jesus.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

There is no substitute for “all”.

In summation of which, Scripture declares:
Colossians 3:11
“...Christ is all, and in all


It's all about Him.

Attacking a doctrine is not an ad hominem attack. As to personal attacks, I do not remember you ever making even one anti-semitic comment. But many people who hold your doctrine do indeed project it into a full blown anti-semiticism.

Jesus is indeed the heir of all things. But his own are explicitly declared to be co-heirs with Him. And even the New Testament repeatedly states that Israel will again be restored. This is what you keep denying, but it is clearly taught in the scriptures. And your claim that the promises of the New Testament have replaced the promises in the Old Testament is never stated. WE have better promises. But nowhere in scripture were THEIR promises EVER abrogated. Not even once.

I say, and maintain, that your doctrine makes God a liar because, and simply because, your doctrine uses interpretations of the results of a relatively few statements in scripture as an excuse to deny the explicit statements of a far larger number of other scriptures that proceed from the same Holy Spirit.

You cannot point to even one New Testament passage that even hints that the very numerous ancient promises to various Old Testament individuals and nations will not actually be kept. Instead, several New Testament passages very explicitly teach the unconditional and unchangeable nature of the promises of God. And uses the unconditional nature of Old Testament promises as proof that we can absolutely rely on the promises contained in the New Testament.

There is not even one doctrine in all of classical dispensationalism that contradicts even one direct statement of the New Testament. The only contradiction in dispensationalism is to the interpretations people like you place upon the meanings of these New Testament statements.

But many of your doctrines directly contradict many explicit statements of both the Old and the New Testaments.

As this is degenerating into a childish argument, I do not wish to continue it.
 
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Biblewriter

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All the prophecies about a scattering AND REGATHERING of National Israel were fulfilled at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

There is not one single prophesy, in the Old Testament or New, written AFTER the Babylonian captivity, that mentions any subsequent scattering AND REGATHERING of Temporal, National Israel.

Not even one.

"In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places desolate . . . ye shall be scattered among the countries . . . among the nations whither they shall be carried captives . . . all the house of Israel shall remove and go into captivity . . . I will scatter them among the nations" (Ezekiel ch. 6).

This was the Diaspora. . . . And now the re-gathering of the Jews to their own land 70 years later:

"For thus saith the Lord, that after 70 years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you . . . and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations . . . and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive" (Jeremiah. 29: 10-14).

Again, Not one single verse in the Old Testament, or New, written after the Babylonian Captivity mentions any other dispersion and re-gathering of the Jews. NOT EVEN ONE.

The Bible says they WOULD be dispersed into all nations,
The Bible then confirms they DID get dispersed into all nations.
The Bible says they would be gathered back FROM all nations.
The Bible then confirms they WERE gathered back from All nations.

Prophetic fulfillment has been realized. No further fulfillment of this prophecy is necessary or biblically warranted.

I notice that you include the word "scattering" in your argument about these prophecies not being repeated after the Babylonian captivity. This makes your statements technically true, for a second scattering was never so prophesied. But a second regathering was indeed prophesied.

But that is actually beside the point. For it is utter nonsense to even pretend that many of the prophecies about the return have ever been fulfilled.

There has never been a time, any time after that of Ezekiel, when "all the house of Israel, all of it," inhabited "the Mountains of Israel with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, as is explicitly stated in Ezekiel 36:1-10.

There has never been a time when Israel has been brought "out from the peoples" and gathered "out of the countries" where they were scattered, and met in the wilderness as they returned, with God purging the rebels from among them, bringing them "out of the country where they dwell," but not allowing them to "enter the land of Israel," as is explicitly stated in Ezekiel 20:33-38.

Since the time of Ezekiel, there has never been a time when Israel had the boundries so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47:13-20. Nor has the land ever been divided among the twelve tribes in the way so precisely defined in Ezekiel 48.

I could go on and on, for there are many other such prophecies that have unquestionably never been fulfilled. It is simply nonsense to even try to pretend otherwise.
 
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BABerean2

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You cannot point to even one New Testament passage that even hints that the very numerous ancient promises to various Old Testament individuals and nations will not actually be kept.

How about the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8?

Is an understanding of the New Covenant the sword that kills modern Dispensational Theology?


.
 
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Biblewriter

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How about the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8?

Is an understanding of the New Covenant the sword that kills modern Dispensational Theology?


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Not a single one of these passages even hints at the idea that the ancient promises will not be kept. But Romans 11:28-28 says concerning unbelieving Israel, "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:28-29
 
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BABerean2

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But Romans 11:28-28 says concerning unbelieving Israel, "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:28-29

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Paul begins Romans 11 with two different groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah. One group was made up of Baal worshipers and the other group were the 7,000 who remained faithful to God. Paul said there was also an elect remnant during his time. (Romans 11:1-5)

Paul ends the passage in the same way.
There are two different groups in Romans 11:28.
The branches broken off of the tree rejected the Gospel and are the enemies of God.
Those Israelites like Paul in Romans 11:1, accepted Christ and are the election.

Your doctrine attempts to turn the election into the enemies of God, and therefore is shown to be in error.

.
 
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Biblewriter

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Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Paul begins Romans 11 with two different groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah. One group was made up of Baal worshipers and the other group were the 7,000 who remained faithful to God. Paul said there was also an elect remnant during his time. (Romans 11:1-5)

Paul ends the passage in the same way.
There are two different groups in Romans 11:28.
The branches broken off of the tree rejected the Gospel and are the enemies of God.
Those Israelites like Paul in Romans 11:1, accepted Christ and are the election.

Your doctrine attempts to turn the election into the enemies of God, and therefore is shown to be in error.

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You are completely ignoring the fact that verse 28 explicitly defines the group under discussion at that point as those that "are enemies for the gospel's sake." Yet, even these enemies, it explicitly says are "beloved for the father's sake." it is only then that it gives the reason, that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." Do you realize what "irrevocable" means? It means that the ancient promises cannot be revoked. Period. no exceptions.

This is what the Holy Spirit explicitly says.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You are completely ignoring the fact that verse 28 explicitly defines the group under discussion at that point as those that "are enemies for the gospel's sake." Yet, even these enemies, it explicitly says are "beloved for the father's sake." it is only then that it gives the reason, that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." Do you realize what "irrevocable" means? It means that the ancient promises cannot be revoked. Period. no exceptions.

This is what the Holy Spirit explicitly says.
Do you believe this was fulfilled?

Ezekiel 37:22

and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel;
and one King shall be king over them all;
they shall no longer be two Nations,

nor shall they ever be divided into two Kingdoms again".
 
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Biblewriter

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Do you believe this was fulfilled?

Ezekiel 37:22

and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel;
and one King shall be king over them all;
they shall no longer be two Nations,

nor shall they ever be divided into two Kingdoms again".
Actually, Ephraim has still not returned to the land. Only Judah, and in fact, only a very small fraction of that kingdom, returned. Later, a few individuals from the other tribes drifted back, but nothing even remotely resembling the "all the house of Israel, all of it" promised in Ezekiel 36:1-10.
 
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This division of opinion would be solved when the proper understanding of the 70th week of the 70 weeks are determined upon my people prophecy is acknowledged.

It is all about JESUS not satan

Matthew 21
Israel after the stoning of Stephen is not a literal Israel it is a Spiritual Israel of GODS people hence "70 weeks are determined upon my people"

33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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.........
It is all about JESUS not satan
Matthew 21
Israel after the stoning of Stephen is not a literal Israel it is a Spiritual Israel of GODS people hence "70 weeks are determined upon my people"

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Gotta bind that strong one............

Matthew 12:29
“Or how can one enter a strong-one's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong-one?
And then he will plunder his house.

#2480 used 1 time in Revelation:


2480. ischuo is-khoo'-o from 2479; to have (or exercise) force (literally or figuratively):--be able, avail, can do(-not), could, be good, might, prevail, be of strength, be whole, + much work.

Acts 6:10
And not they were strong/iscuon<2480> to withstand to the Wisdom

and to the Spirit to which he talked.

Revelation 12:8
And not he is strong/iscuon<2480>,

neither place was found of them still in the Heaven.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/stoning-of-stephen-against-the-law.6719420/
Stoning of Stephen against the Law
 
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BABerean2

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You are completely ignoring the fact that verse 28 explicitly defines the group under discussion at that point as those that "are enemies for the gospel's sake." Yet, even these enemies, it explicitly says are "beloved for the father's sake." it is only then that it gives the reason, that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." Do you realize what "irrevocable" means? It means that the ancient promises cannot be revoked. Period. no exceptions.

This is what the Holy Spirit explicitly says.

The only way to make your interpretation of Romans 11:28 work is by ripping the verse out of its context found in the rest of the passage.

Your claim that the election are the enemies of God comes apart at the seams, when it is compared to the rest of the passage.
Irrevocable applies to the elect remnant found in Romans 11:5, and elsewhere in the passage which refers to those who have placed their faith in Christ.

You are attempting to turn the Baal worshipers into the election, and then you claim this is what the Holy Spirit "explicitly" says.


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Actually, Ephraim has still not returned to the land. Only Judah, and in fact, only a very small fraction of that kingdom, returned. Later, a few individuals from the other tribes drifted back, but nothing even remotely resembling the "all the house of Israel, all of it" promised in Ezekiel 36:1-10.
How do you know none of Ephraim has returned?

And yes, I am aware that Dan and the half tribe of Ephraim are left out of Revelation........Manasseh, 1st born of Joseph, is in the place Dan should be.

Genesis 49:

1 And Jacob called his sons and said, “Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:
2 “Gather together and hear, you sons of Jacob,
And listen to Israel your father.


16 “Dan shall judge his people
As one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, A viper by the path,
That bites the horse's heels So that its rider shall fall backward



Revelation 7:4-8
1. Judah = "I will praise the Lord" 2. Reuben = "He has looked on me" 3. Gad = "Granted good fortune" 4. Asher = "Happy am I" 5. Naphtali = "My wrestling" 6. Manasseh = "Making me to forget" 7. Simeon = "God hears me" 8. Levi = "Joined to me" 9. Issachar = "Purchased Me" 10. Zebulun = "Dwelling" 11. Joseph = "God will add to me" 12. Benjamin = "Son of His right hand"
 
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jgr

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You are completely ignoring the fact that verse 28 explicitly defines the group under discussion at that point as those that "are enemies for the gospel's sake." Yet, even these enemies, it explicitly says are "beloved for the father's sake." it is only then that it gives the reason, that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." Do you realize what "irrevocable" means? It means that the ancient promises cannot be revoked. Period. no exceptions.

This is what the Holy Spirit explicitly says.
It has no reference to ancient promises, for the gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts were, and are, not bestowed upon Paul's countrymen according to the flesh, enemies of the gospel.
They are bestowed exclusively upon God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People -- His Church.
To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable.


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

God's calling was, and is, not directed to Paul's countrymen according to the flesh, enemies of the gospel.
It is directed exclusively to God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People -- His Church.
To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable.


This is an unequivocal repudiation of any claim that unbelievers within the nation of Israel, enemies of the gospel, can be the recipients of God's gifts and calling.
 
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