Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

jgr · Aug 25, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
very interesting

no year zero, 454 BC + 454 years = 1 AD + 29 more years = 30 AD = Crucifixion at the end of the (7+62)'nd week

Somehow, Jesus said "this generation shall not pass away" until the 70th week was fulfilled = 66-73 AD = Jewish-Roman War, wherein the physical temple was raised in the middle of the week in 70 AD

The Crucifixion, leaving the Messiah with "nothing" (Dan 7) and "this generation shall not pass away" somehow indicate a "pause" in the "Daniel chronology clock" for about 5 weeks of years from ~31 to 66 AD...

this seems to link to St. Paul's statement about a "restrainer" (2 Thess 2:6-7)

The Daniel clock does (did) not resume until the "restrainer" is (was) removed...

almost all agree that the "restrainer" has something to with the Gospel of Christ as preached by the Church (especially in 1st century AD Jerusalem... when High Priest Ananias martyred St. James, brother of the Lord, too, and the Christians fled the city, almost immediately God's Wrath, manifested through the Roman armies, raised Jerusalem)

Thanks for the alert of my oversight in not adding 1 to the AD dates in recognizing that AD starts at 1 and not 0.

That places the highest estimate of the crucifixion at 33.5 AD, or approximately somewhere within 33 AD, which is at the high end of, but still within, the generally accepted date range of 30 - 33 AD.

jgr · Aug 25, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
The Greek G2722 is "kata-echo" = "hold down" (lit. "down hold")

Mostly used in the NT in reference to Christians "holding down" the Gospel they had already received

However, the 1st century Judaeans drove out the Roman authorities (66 AD) about the same time as the Christians felt compelled to flea Jerusalem (70 AD)

Conversely, "iniquity" = G458 = "anomia" = not+law, "lawless"... mostly used in the NT in reference to sinners who reject Jesus and the sins which only belief in Jesus can forgive.

Still think it's possible to support a "Christian Church" restraining vs. lawless "Christ rejecting Jerusalem establishment" explanation

Please note also that the Greeks says "until he comes out of the middle" (G3319 "mesos")… i.e. the restraining power resides "in the midst" of the sin, so holding it down... when the restrainer comes out from amidst the sinners, their lawlessness is "loosed" like an arrow from a previously-taught bow string

That fits the Christians fleeing out from amidst apostate Jerusalem in 70 AD, immediately after which Titus and the Roman armies sacked the city

Not implausible, but the question would then arise as to why Paul was unwilling to identify the restrainer, if it was in fact the Church? Chrysostom's explanation does answer that question.

Tertullian had also surmised similar to Chrysostom, a couple of centuries earlier.

And papal Rome did emerge upon the dissolution of pagan Rome.

BABerean2 · Aug 25, 2018

DaDad said:
Perhaps you can explain your "theology" to the Nation of Israel. And possibly to the FIFTH "Divided Kingdom" which is comprised of the THREE Superpowers and the United Nations

The modern State of Israel is a creation of the Rothschild family, based on their own words.
How many times does Lord Rothschild give credit to God in the video below?

The Two Peoples of God doctrine is a form of Dual Covenant Theology.

.

A71 · Aug 25, 2018

jgr said:
Thanks for the alert of my oversight in not adding 1 to the AD dates in recognizing that AD starts at 1 and not 0.

That places the highest estimate of the crucifixion at 33.5 AD, or approximately somewhere within 33 AD, which is at the high end of, but still within, the generally accepted date range of 30 - 33 AD.

Two dates are the most credible, according to those who've studied it.
Passover 30, or 33AD, April on modern calendar.
33 AD seems intuitively right to me

A71 · Aug 25, 2018

Woefully ignorant I am afraid on both points.
What you have implied here is the fundamentally anti-semitic notion that the state of Israel represents all Jewry.

They would have you believe this, but the contrary is true.
The majority of Jews wholly reject the legitimacy of the state cynically so named, and also refuse to live there.
You need to digest that and consider its ramifications.

In fact this state is at heart a non-Jewish enterprise, when you study prophecy.

BABerean2 said:
The modern State of Israel is a creation of the Rothschild family, based on their own words.
How many times does Lord Rothschild give credit to God in the video below?

The Two Peoples of God doctrine is a form of Dual Covenant Theology.

.

BABerean2 · Aug 25, 2018

A71 said:
What you have implied here is the fundamentally anti-semitic notion that the state of Israel represents all Jewry.

Both Jews and Arabs are Semitic people.
I do not hate either group.

The most "antisemitic" thing we can do is to not share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with any person, no matter their bloodline.
Both Orthodox Jews and Muslims are lost and in need of Christ.

My wife and I give financially to ministries which share the Gospel with modern Jews, so keep the "antisemitic" label to yourself, unless you do likewise.

I understand that all Orthodox Jews do not promoted the modern state.
However, I would like to see where you get the claim that the majority are against the modern State.
Is this just your claim or can you back it up with numbers?
.

JLB777 · Aug 25, 2018

DaDad said:
Please explain why the angel specifies that the prophecies in the Book of Daniel are "shut up and sealed until the time of the end", and the commentators don't even wait until the ink is dry before they tell us the "interpretations".

500 BC, 200 BC, 0 AD, 33 AD, -- AREN'T THE TIME OF THE END. 1948 is approximate to the time of the end. Please interpret the prophecies in the correct era.

Thanks,
DaDad

They are being understood now, because we are in the time of the end.

Starting with the Olivet Discourse, Jesus taught us that -

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Has the great tribulation happened yet?

JLB

A71 · Aug 25, 2018

We need to be careful here. I never said you were an anti-semite. I said the notion of the state called Israel being
In any way representative of Jewry is an anti-semitic notion.

This is the problem with false doctrine. Any false doctrine can be very damaging, and the false doctrines you are pushing are ultimately dangerous and wrong.
A friend used to say: "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
Our intentions and our actions can be in conflict.

BABerean2 said:
Both Jews and Arabs are Semitic people.
I do not hate either group.

The most "antisemitic" thing we can do is to not share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with any person, no matter their bloodline.
Both Orthodox Jews and Muslims are lost and in need of Christ.

My wife and I give financially to ministries which share the Gospel with modern Jews, so keep the "antisemitic" label to yourself, unless you do likewise.

I understand that all Orthodox Jews do not promoted the modern state.
However, I would like to see where you get the claim that the majority are against the modern State.
Is this just your claim or can you back it up with numbers?
.

BABerean2 · Aug 25, 2018

JLB777 said:
Has the great tribulation happened yet?

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Church has been in tribulation since the first century, based on John's words found above.

Luke describes a time period known as the times of the Gentiles (Luke 21:24-28), which will occur until the Second Coming of Christ.
Paul refers to the same time period in Romans 11:25.

Matthew's Gospel describes this time period as a time of "tribulation".

This time period began when Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles, as revealed by Galatians 1:14-18.
Before that was a period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews, found in Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16.

.

BABerean2 · Aug 25, 2018

A71 said:
Any false doctrine can be very damaging, and the false doctrines you are pushing are ultimately dangerous and wrong.

Speaking of being "careful here"...

If you are going to bring the charge above against me, it would be best if you used scripture to do so, since this is a Bible based forum.

Luk_6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

We are still waiting on you to show some numbers on your claims about the number of Orthodox Jews who support the modern state.

.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 25, 2018

A71 said: ↑
What you have implied here is the fundamentally anti-semitic notion that the state of Israel represents all Jewry.

BABerean2 said:
Both Jews and Arabs are Semitic people.
I do not hate either group.

The most "antisemitic" thing we can do is to not share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with any person, no matter their bloodline.
Both Orthodox Jews and Muslims are lost and in need of Christ.
.

I have often been labeled antisemitic because of my Preterist view of the Daniel, Olivet Discourse and Revelation, and one reason I am against Dispensationalism[aka Christian Zionism], as they appear to throw that label at those who believe Jesus did fulfill all things for the OC Jews.

Act 11:2
And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those of the circumcision contended with him,

Philippians 3:2
Beware of-the dogs, beware of-the evil workers, beware of-the circumcision!
3 For we-are the circumcision, ones to Spirit of God worship
boasting in Christ Jesus, and not in flesh having confidence.
[Psalms 22:16
For dogs have surrounded me, assembly of ones doing evil have encompass me as a lion, hands of me and feet of me.]

2 Corinthians 6:17
wherefore come-forth out of midst of them! and be being separated!' is saying Lord
and an unclean-thing no ye be touching! and I shall be accepting ye'

Revelation 18:4
And I hear another voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her My People......................

A71 · Aug 25, 2018

The fact that you are dodging the issues does not look good.

Those figures are readily available. There are around 17 million Jews worldwide eligible to live in Israel who choose not to.

I have already told you that you are pushing false doctrines. You haven't answered. The ball is in your court.

You did not state your case using scripture, but used videos, so you need to be consistent. Once you have stated your case, it can be refuted.

At present you have conflated the state of Israel with the Jewish people. Israel is a people, not a strip of land. You seem confused.

BABerean2 said:
Speaking of being "careful here"...

If you are going to bring the charge above against me, it would be best if you used scripture to do so, since this is a Bible based forum.

Luk_6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

We are still waiting on you to show some numbers on your claims about the number of Orthodox Jews who support the modern state.

.

A71 · Aug 25, 2018

You are not consistent, the left hand is out of synch with the right. You say:

If you are going to bring the charge above against me, it would be best if you used scripture to do so, since this is a Bible based forum.

But you yourself use videos to make your case, not the Bible. This is called "rank hypocrisy".

BABerean2 said:
The modern State of Israel is a creation of the Rothschild family, based on their own words.
How many times does Lord Rothschild give credit to God in the video below?

The Two Peoples of God doctrine is a form of Dual Covenant Theology.

.

BABerean2 · Aug 25, 2018

A71 said:
The fact that you are dodging the issues does not look good.

Those figures are readily available. There are around 17 million Jews worldwide eligible to live in Israel who chose not to.

I have already told you that you are pushing false doctrines. You haven't answered. The ball is in your court.

You did not state your case using scripture, but used videos, so you need to be consistent. Once you have stated your case, it can be refuted.

At present you have conflated the state of Israel with the Jewish people. Israel is a people, not a strip of land. You seem confused.

Are you claiming that every Orthodox Jew who does not live in the modern State of Israel cannot be a Zionist?

You are making the broad statement that I am promoting false doctrine, but have not spelled them out.

You claim "Israel" is a people. How much of Jacob's DNA does a person need to be a part of "Israel"?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

.

A71 · Aug 25, 2018

Probably better for everyone if you define how you understand Jew. Your taglines indicate that you view Jews as a tribal group, "The descendants of Jacob need to hear the Gospel, now.", defined by DNA. You confirmed this when you said:

BABerean2 said:
Both Jews and Arabs are Semitic people.
I do not hate either group.

In your video thread, you imply that a Jew is someone who lives in Israel. If that was not your intention, please explain.

Below you quote Paul saying that a Jew is an inward state.
Do you have the foggiest idea of what he meant, or are you just sticking the quote in for props?

You then ask me what DNA percentage makes a Jew, but you have already stated that Jews are a DNA group, a tribal entity like Arabs. Do you have any idea what you mean to say, or what you are actually trying to say?

BABerean2 said:
Are you claiming that every Orthodox Jew who does not live in the modern State of Israel cannot be a Zionist?

You are making the broad statement that I am promoting false doctrine, but have not spelled them out.

You claim "Israel" is a people. How much of Jacob's DNA does a person need to be a part of "Israel"?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 25, 2018

A71 said:
You are not consistent, the left hand is out of synch with the right. You say:

If you are going to bring the charge above against me, it would be best if you used scripture to do so, since this is a Bible based forum.
But you yourself use videos to make your case, not the Bible. This is called "rank hypocrisy".

I see a lot of that happening on this board.
Yahweh said the same thing to Jonah about the Ninevites...

Jonah 4:11
So should I not care about the great city of Nineveh, which has more than 120,000 people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well?”

Matthew 12:41
"Men of Nineveh shall be resurrecting/standing-up/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this-one
and they shall be condemning it.
That they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah, and behold! more of Jonah here.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-about-jonah.8067726/
What about Jonah

Jonah 3:1
And is becoming word of Yahweh unto Jonah a second-time to say of "Rise! go! to Nineveh, the great City, and call to her! the call that I am speaking to thee'

Act 9:15
Said yet the Lord toward him, "be thou going! that a vessel of-choice/ekloghV <1589> is to Me this-one, of the to bear the Name of Me before nations and kings--sons besides of Israel".

DavidPT · Aug 25, 2018

mkgal1 said:
That doesn't really answer my question, though.
Since you and I have different understandings of this passage....then obviously there is a disconnect partially in the language - and I am presuming the word "desolate" has a lot to do with it. That's why I asked about that word specifically.

What happened in the temple? What was Jesus' death on the cross called? Weren't they BOTH called "sacrifices"? Which one is considered superior? Take a look at Hebrews:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

May we just focus on "desolate" for a while, please?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here.....but Scripture does, indeed, help us to interpret Scripture.

You realize the ancient Jews understood that God's presence went with them in the Ark of the Covenant....and later filled the temple in Jerusalem.....right? They didn't have the understanding we have now.....that God's presence isn't restricted.

That Strong's definition of "shamem" says "desolate". The definition of that is:

Dictionary = (of a place) deserted of people and in a state of bleak and dismal emptiness.

It can then be said that the temple was empty of God's presence (which is what I believe is the meaning in this passage).

Jesus is recorded as saying:

Matthew 23:38 ~ "See, your house is left to you, desolate."

From Bible Study Tools:

As with the Tabernacle, the Temple service included elaborate procedures by which man could approach God’s presence in a limited way. When the Temple was dedicated, God’s presence came to the Temple (1K. 1K. 8:10-11; 2Chr. 2Chr. 5:13-14). In the days of Ezekiel, after the civil war and after the Northern Kingdom had fallen into apostasy and been judged by Assyria, the sin of the Southern Kingdom, where Jerusalem and the Temple were located, was so severe as to drive God from His sanctuary. God no longer met with Israel in the Temple because it was no longer His House(Eze. Eze. 8:6; Eze. 9:3; Eze. 10:4, Eze. 10:18-19; Eze. 11:22-23 cf. Mtt. Mat. 23:38-39; Mtt. Mat. 24:3; Luke Luke 13:35). Soon thereafter, the Temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and the Jews that remained were exiled to Babylon. Thus, an important historic principle was established concerning the Temple: when God leaves His House, it becomes subject to destruction.

I got sidetracked yesterday with other things. I will try and concentrate on some of this today. Again though, not easy to answer some of these questions in writing. It can get pretty tedious trying to explain how one might be understanding certain things. Meaning tedious for me. Most of the time I like to keep things somewhat simple.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
I got sidetracked yesterday with other things. I will try and concentrate on some of this today. Again though, not easy to answer some of these questions in writing. It can get pretty tedious trying to explain how one might be understanding certain things. Meaning tedious for me. Most of the time I like to keep things somewhat simple.

Yeah, simple would be nice.
Unfortunately tho, there is nothing simple about Daniel and Revelation.......
Even the Jews haven't figured it out, so what does that tell us.....

Daniel 11:
5 and I lift up mine eyes, and look, and behold! a certain one clothed in linen, and his loins girt with pure gold of Uphaz,
6 and his body as a beryl,
and his face as the appearance of lightning,
and his eyes as lamps of fire,
and his arms and his feet as the aspect of bright brass,
and the voice of his words as the voice of a multitude.

Revelation 2:18
“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write!
‘These things says the Son of God,
who has eyes like a flame of fire,
and His feet like fine brass:

DaDad · Aug 25, 2018

jgr said:
The KJV/NASB/YLT have demonstrably better answers than the RSV.

Once again, the Masoretic has NO CAPITALIZATION or PUNCTUATION. Thus if the ORIGINAL has limitations, then the Versions are ALSO FAILED.

jgr said:
Daniel's prophecies are ancient.

Please explain that to the angel in 12:4 & 9.

Thanks,
DaDad

DaDad · Aug 25, 2018

JLB777 said:
They are being understood now, because we are in the time of the end.

Please have all the commentator "ancient fulfillment" explanations rescinded, because they're all lies. The Prophecies of Daniel are approximate to 1948, and precisely align with History.

JLB777 said:
Has the great tribulation happened yet?

I would propose that we crossed the threshold into the 42 month tribulation when Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. This appears to agree with the Prophetic Psalms.

Thanks,
DaDad

Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

Is there a "gap" in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9"

No

Yes

I don't know

Other

Fully fulfilled

Half complete Half Future

All Future

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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