Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

ClementofA · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
I have already addressed kampto but will address it again since the error is being repeated.

κάμπτω fut. κάμψω; 1 aor. ἔκαμψα; aor. pass. 3 pl. ἐκάμφθησαν Job 9:13, inf. καμφθῆναι 4 Macc 3:4. (Hom. et al.; pap, LXX, Philo).
① trans. to bend or incline some part of the body, bend, bow freq. [NOT always DA] as gesture of respect or devotion: τὸν τράχηλον the neck (Aesop, Fab. 452 p. 501, 12f P. ἔκαμψα τὸν ἐμαυτοῦ τράχηλον) B 3:2 (Is 58:5). γόνυ (also pl.) bend the knee as a sign of (religious) devotion (LXX) τινί before someone (SibOr 3, 616f) τῇ Βάαλ Ro 11:4 (3 Km 19:18). Also πρός τινα Eph 3:14. Fig. κ. τὰ γόνατα τῆς καρδίας (s. γόνυ) 1 Cl 57:1.
② intr. (Polyaenus 3, 4, 3 ἔκαμψεν=he bent inward) to assume a bending posture, bend (itself) ἐμοὶ κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ every knee shall bend before me Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23). ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ when the name of Jesus is proclaimed Phil 2:10 (also infl. by Is 45:23).—B. 542. Renehan ’75, 115f. DELG. M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 507). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Note the definition does not include "in religious veneration."

"bend the knee in worship, LXX Is.45.23, etc.":

https://translate.academic.ru/κάμπτω/el/xx/

"In the NT κάμπτω is found only in combination with γόνυ (γόνατα), and in this connection it is used trans. with γόνυ (γόνατα) as obj. (R. 11:4; Eph. 3:14) and instrans. with γόνυ as subj. (R. 14:11; Phil.2:10)."

"κάμπτειν γόνυ (γόνατα) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship before the one whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgement scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 11:4 κάμπτειν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14...is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer" (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.3, p.594-595, Heinrich Schlier, ed. Kittel., Eerdmans, 1978).

Thayer's Lexicon:
"b. reflexively, to bow oneself: κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ ἐμοί, shall bow to me (in honor), i. e. everyone shall worship me, Romans 14:11 (from Isaiah 45:23); ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ, in devout recognition of the name (of κύριος) which Jesus received from God, Philippians 2:10 (cf. Winers Grammar, 390 (365); Lightfoot, Meyer, in the place cited; also ὄνομα, especially sub at the end. Compare: ἀνακάμπτω, συγκάμπτω)." https://biblehub.com/greek/2578.htm

"STRONGS NT 2578: κάμπτω
κάμπτω; future καμψω; 1 aorist ἐκαμψα;
a. to bend, bow: τό γόνυ (and τά γούνατα), the knee (the knees), used by Homer of those taking a seat or sitting down to rest (Iliad 7, 118; 19, 72); in Biblical Greek with the dative of person to one i. e. in honor of one, in religious veneration; used of worshippers: Romans 11:4 and 1 Kings 19:18 (where for כָּרַע followed by לְ); πρός τινα, toward (unto) one, Ephesians 3:14.

"b. reflexively, to bow oneself: κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ ἐμοί, shall bow to me (in honor), i. e. everyone shall worship me, Romans 14:11 (from Isaiah 45:23); ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ, in devout recognition of the name (of κύριος) which Jesus received from God, Philippians 2:10 (cf. Winers Grammar, 390 (365); Lightfoot, Meyer, in the place cited; also ὄνομα, especially sub at the end. Compare: ἀνακάμπτω, συγκάμπτω)."https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2578&t=KJV

"Vincent's Word Studies
At the name of Jesus (ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι)
Rev., better, in the name. The name means here the personal name; but as including all that is involved in the name. See on Matthew 28:19. Hence the salutation is not at the name of Jesus, as by bowing when the name is uttered, but, as Ellicott rightly says: "the spiritual sphere, the holy element as it were, in which every prayer is to be offered and every knee to bow." Compare Ephesians 5:20." https://biblehub.com/commentaries/philippians/2-10.htm

"kampo...2578..."to bend", is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration, Rom. 11:4; 14:11; Eph.3:14; Phil.2:10..." (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, 1996, p.75)

"2578...To bend, such as the knees, to which it is applied in the NT (Rom 11:4, "bent the knee in homage" [a.t.] or worship; Rom 11:4 quoted from Isa 45:23; Eph.3:14, followed by pros [4314], toward with the acc,: Phil 2:10)" (The Complete WordStudy Dictionary: New Testament, ed. Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D, 1993, p.817).

"2:10-11 These final verses of the christologial hymn describe the universal homage and acclamation that will be accorded the one whose name ranks above all others...the adoration is in honour of the exalted Christ...the parallel words of v.11b describe explicitly the act of reverence as paid directly to the Son and 'to the glory of God the Father'. It is clear that Jesus is the one being worshipped."

"...'Every knee shall bow'. The universal scope of the adoration offered to Jesus as Lord is described by the words 'every knee shall bow' and 'every tongue confess'. (v.11)...The bending of the knee was an expression denoting great reverence and submission in the OT, especially marking the humble approach of the worshipper who felt his need so keenly that he could not stand upright before God. While the usual position in prayer was that of standing (e.g., Je. 18:20; 1 Ki. 18:15; 17:1, etc), in times of special need or extremity the worshipper fell on his knees (so Ez. 9:5, 15). Likewise in the Gospels people stand to pray (Lk.18:11, 13) and Jesus assumes His disciples will stand (cf. Mt.6:5); but when there is an acute sense of need or urgent entreaty, the supplicant falls down before God. So Jesus in Gethsemane bows down in lowly submission and distress (Mt.26:9; Mk.14:35; Lk.22:41). The bowing of the knee here at Phil. 2:10, as Martin puts it, is 'a mark of extreme abasement and submission (as in Eph. iii.14) and denotes that the universal homage marks the subjection of those who kneel to the lordship of Christ'.47"

"...Is. 45:22-25...The Lord...swears solemnly by his own life that 'every knee will bow before me; by me every tongue will swear'...the words of v.23, which are reiterated in Phil. 2:10-11, express the notion of the universal and final homage to Yahweh.

"...By invoking Is.45:23 as its proof-text the author of the hymn and the...community in which the hymn originated live 'in confident expectation that this salvation will soon be universally visible'.55"

(The New International Greek Testament Commentary (NIGTC): The Epistle to the Phillipians, Peter T. Obrien, 1991, p.238, 240-243)

https://www.amazon.com/Epistle-Philippians-International-Testament-Commentary/dp/0802872131

"Peter T. O'Brien - The Epistle to the Philippians (New International Greek Testament Commentary)...The experts’ consensus is that O’Brien’s commentary is the best available."
http://m.blogs.christianpost.com/overflow/best-commentaries-on-philippians-17202/

Pneuma3 · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
I'm glad you posted this

"eternal | Origin and meaning of eternal by Online Etymology Dictionary
eternal (adj.)
late 14c., from Old French eternel "eternal," or directly from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus "of an age, lasting, enduring, permanent, everlasting, endless," contraction of aeviternus "of great age," from aevum "age" (from PIE root *aiw- "vital force, life; long life, eternity").
Used since Middle English both of things or conditions without beginning or end and things with a beginning only but no end. A parallel form, Middle English eterne, is from Old French eterne (cognate with Spanish eterno), directly from Latin aeternus. Related: Eternally. The Eternal (n.) for "God" is attested from 1580s."
You claim not to play with words and that is exactly what you have done. That is known as the lexical fallacy "the • "Root fallacy: assigning the (supposed) original meaning of a word to its usages throughout history;" Even what you quoted includes "permanent, everlasting, endless, things with beginning only but no end." Contrary to your claim your source does not say that eternal means always, only "without beginning and without end." Here is the definition of the word "eternal" from the Merriam-Webster dictionary. This is what the word means in modern times not what it could have meant in the 14th-16th century.

Definition of eternal
1a : having infinite duration : everlasting eternal damnation
b : of or relating to eternity
c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God
good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? —Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)
2a : continued without intermission : perpetual an eternal flame
b : seemingly endless eternal delays
3archaic : infernal
some eternal villain … devised this slander
—William Shakespeare
4: valid or existing at all times: timeless
eternal verities

As I have shown your source does not support your claim that "eternal always,only means without beginning and without end."

Wrong as usual, playing with words is exactly what you have done and are doing. That a word can mean "X" does not mean that word always, only means "X." Once again even your own source "online etymology" supports me. You ready for round 2?

I never said eternal could not mean without end, I said aionios cannot as scripture tells us aion and its adjective END, and the reason I posted the etymology was to CORRECT you, showing that it does mean without beginning and without end which you had said it did not.

So now that you have been corrected we can move on.

Pneuma3 · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
I have already addressed kampto but will address it again since the error is being repeated.

κάμπτω fut. κάμψω; 1 aor. ἔκαμψα; aor. pass. 3 pl. ἐκάμφθησαν Job 9:13, inf. καμφθῆναι 4 Macc 3:4. (Hom. et al.; pap, LXX, Philo).
① trans. to bend or incline some part of the body, bend, bow freq. [NOT always DA] as gesture of respect or devotion: τὸν τράχηλον the neck (Aesop, Fab. 452 p. 501, 12f P. ἔκαμψα τὸν ἐμαυτοῦ τράχηλον) B 3:2 (Is 58:5). γόνυ (also pl.) bend the knee as a sign of (religious) devotion (LXX) τινί before someone (SibOr 3, 616f) τῇ Βάαλ Ro 11:4 (3 Km 19:18). Also πρός τινα Eph 3:14. Fig. κ. τὰ γόνατα τῆς καρδίας (s. γόνυ) 1 Cl 57:1.
② intr. (Polyaenus 3, 4, 3 ἔκαμψεν=he bent inward) to assume a bending posture, bend (itself) ἐμοὶ κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ every knee shall bend before me Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23). ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ when the name of Jesus is proclaimed Phil 2:10 (also infl. by Is 45:23).—B. 542. Renehan ’75, 115f. DELG. M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 507). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Note the definition does not include "in religious veneration."

(s. next entry and ὁμολογέω) 1 aor. ἐξωμολόγησα; fut. mid. ἐξομολογήσομαι; aor. mid. ἐξωμολογησάμην LXX (quotable since III B.C.—Mitt-Wilck. II/2, 20, 18; 37, 17—PHib 30, 18 [300–271 B.C.]; also LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph.).
① to indicate acceptance of an offer or proposal, promise, consent, act., abs. Lk 22:6 (the act. is found as rarely [perh. Alex. Aphr., An. Mant. II 1 p. 168, 15] as the pass. [perh. SIG 685, 95]).
② to make an admission of wrong-doing/sin, confess, admit, mid. (Plut., Eum. 594 [17, 7], Anton. 943 [59, 3] τ. ἀλήθειαν, Stoic. Repugn. 17 p. 1042a; Sus 14; Jos., Bell. 1, 625, Ant. 8, 256) τὶ someth. (POslo 17, 14 [136 A.D.] τὸ ἀληθές; Cyranides p. 100, 18 πάντα ὅσα ἔπραξεν; Orig., C. Cels. 2, 11, 30 τὸ ἡμαρτημένον) τὰς ἁμαρτίας (Jos., Ant. 8, 129; s. the ins in Steinleitner, nos. 13, 5; 23, 2; 24, 11; 25, 10) Mt 3:6; Mk 1:5 (cp. 1QS 1:24–26); Js 5:16 (s. PAlthaus, Zahn Festgabe 1928, 1ff); Hv 1, 1, 3; Hs 9, 23, 4. τὰς ἁ. τῷ κυρίῳ confess sins to the Lord Hv 3, 1, 5, cp. 6. τὰ παραπτώματα ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ confess transgressions in the congregation D 4:14. περὶ τῶν παραπτωμάτων make a confession of transgressions 1 Cl 51:3. ἐπὶ τ. ἁμαρτίαις for sins B 19:12. Abs. make a confession of sins Ac 19:18; 2 Cl 8:3. W. dat. of the one to whom sins are confessed 1 Cl 52:1, 2 (w. similarity in form to Ps 7:18; 117:19 and sim. Ps passages, but not=praise because of 1 Cl 51:3 [s. 4 below]).—JSchnitzer, D. Beichte im Lichte d. Religionsgesch.: Ztschr. f. Völkerpsychol. 6, 1930, 94–105; RPettazzoni, La confessione dei
③ to declare openly in acknowledgment, profess, acknowledge, mid. (PHib 30, s. above; POxy 1473, 9; Lucian, Herm. 75) w. ὅτι foll. Phil 2:11 (Is 45:23; s. 4 below).—Nägeli 67.
④ fr. the mngs. ‘confess’ and ‘profess’ there arose, as Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 252 shows, the more general sense to praise, in acknowledgment of divine beneficence and majesty (so mostly LXX; TestJob 40:2 πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ) w. dat. of the one praised (oft. LXX; TestSol 1:5; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 80) σοί (2 Km 22:50; 1 Ch 29:13; Ps 85:12; 117:28 al.; Did., Gen. 60, 20) Mt 11:25=Lk 10:21 (s. Norden, Agn. Th. 277–308; JWeiss, GHeinrici Festschr. 1914, 120ff; TArvedson, D. Mysterium Chr. [Mt 11:25–30] ’37; NWilliams, ET 51, ’40, 182–86; 215–20; AHunter, NTS 8, ’62, 241–49); Ro 15:9 (Ps 17:50); 1 Cl 26:2; 61:3; B 6:16 (cp. Ps 34:18). τῷ θεῷ (Tob 14:7; Philo, Leg. All. 2, 95) Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23); τῷ κυρίῳ (fr. Gen 29:35 on, oft. in LXX) 1 Cl 48:2 (Ps 117:19); Hm 10, 3, 2.—DELG s.v. ὁμός. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 351). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Note the definition does not include "acknowledge openly and joyfully to celebrate in praise of ones honour..."

I'm still looking for the words "acknowledge openly and joyfully to celebrate in praise of ones honour..." That is what you claimed BDAG and those specific words are not there. And did you happen to read what BDAG specifically said about Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:1. Or do you only read what fits your assumptions/presuppositions?

Kampto ② he bent inward) to assume a bending posture, bend (itself) ἐμοὶ κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ every knee shall bend before me Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23). ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ when the name of Jesus is proclaimed Phil 2:1
Exomoloyeo ③ to declare openly in acknowledgment, profess, acknowledge, .... Phil 2:11

Rom 14:11 It is written, "'You can be sure that I live,' says the Lord. "And you can be just as sure that every knee will bow down in front of me. Every tongue will tell the truth to God.'" (Isaiah 45:23)
Php 2:10 When the name of Jesus is spoken, everyone's knee will bow to worship him. Every knee in heaven and on earth and under the earth will bow to worship him.
Php 2:11 Everyone's mouth will say that Jesus Christ is Lord. And God the Father will receive the glory.

You have got to be kidding me right? You really don't see those words in there then you are indeed using selective reading.

Pneuma3 · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
As usual, wrong, wrong, wrong. I did not say anything like that. I suggest you refrain from deliberately misquoting me.
...

You really do have selective reading don't you, did I say I was quoting you? NO, I said according to your doctrine...... that is what it leads to

Pneuma3 · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
1 John 2:17
(17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Where does John say that the unrighteous will also definitely abide forever?

LOL that is YOUR belief that says the unrighteous will definitely abide forever, not mine. I believe all the unrighteous will be changed via the cross and become righteous. For when Gods judgments are in the earth the world will learn righteousness.

Pneuma3 · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
(22) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
(23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
I still don't see John saying that those who deny the Son and do not have the Father will definitely be saved.

Well you are right about one thing, you don't see.

Pneuma3 · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
1 John 3:8
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Where does John say those who sin and are of the devil will dedfinitely be saved?

What do you think happens when the works of the devil are destroyed?
According to your doctrine the works of the devil, sin etc are eternal.

Der Alte · Aug 22, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
You really do have selective reading don't you, did I say I was quoting you? NO, I said according to your doctrine...... that is what it leads to

That only way you can know what my doctrine is, I had to have said it. I know I never said anything which is even close to what you claimed. In the future I think you should stick to what I actually say.

Der Alte · Aug 22, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
LOL that is YOUR belief that says the unrighteous will definitely abide forever, not mine. I believe all the unrighteous will be changed via the cross and become righteous. For when Gods judgments are in the earth the world will learn righteousness.

What you believe is irrelevant This just saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" and does not reply to the scripture I posted.

1 John 2:17
(17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Where does John say that the unrighteous will also definitely abide forever?
.....If John believed everyone will be saved regardless he would not specify only a certain group "he that does the will of God abides for ever." And his audience who had not been subjected to years of UR indoctrination, would not have understood that "he that does the will of God abides for ever." meant all mankind will be saved.

Der Alte · Aug 22, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
What do you think happens when the works of the devil are destroyed?
According to your doctrine the works of the devil, sin etc are eternal.

I am talking about what John actually said, not speculation about what might or might not happen when the works of the devil are destroyed.

1 John 3:8
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Where does John say those who sin and are of the devil will definitely be saved?

ClementofA · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
It does until you or some other uni can show me where Paul told the Christians in Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus that all those
groups Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God would inherit the kingdom after death.

Wrong. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-12). He didn't say any of the unrighteous will never become righteous. So 1 Cor.6:9-12 fails as
a "proof text" against universalism. Ditto for the other passages you quoted - Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5.

ClementofA · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
Your argument fails because it is a logical fallacy, argument from silence, "something must/will happen because the Bible
doesn't say it will not.

Wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong! My comment made no such argument. Neither did it state anything "must/will happen". Instead it was an argument against your position stating:

Der Alter said:
It does until you or some other uni can show me where Paul told the Christians in Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus that all those
groups Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God would inherit the kingdom after death.

Wrong. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-12). He didn't say any of the unrighteous will never become righteous. So 1 Cor.6:9-12 fails as a
"proof text" against universalism. Ditto for the other passages you quoted - Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5.

Der Alter said:
" So please tell me where all those groups of sinners are going to spend eternity after they are made righteous, according to you, because they can't inherit the kingdom of God?.

Irrelevant to my point that your 1 Cor.6:9-11, etc, texts do not disprove universalism. I've shown you are wrong in implying they are "proof texts" against universalism.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
And what did Paul say?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Der Alte · Aug 22, 2018

ClementofA said:
"bend the knee in worship, LXX Is.45.23, etc.":
https://translate.academic.ru/κάμπτω/el/xx/

One specific reference, i.e. Is 45.23, from a Russian site, out of multiple paragraphs does not a rule make for the entire NT.

"In the NT κάμπτω is found only in combination with γόνυ (γόνατα), and in this connection it is used trans. with γόνυ (γόνατα) as obj. (R. 11:4; Eph. 3:14) and instrans. with γόνυ as subj. (R. 14:11; Phil.2:10)."
"κάμπτειν γόνυ (γόνατα) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship before the one whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgement scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 11:4 κάμπτειν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14...is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer" (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.3, p.594-595, Heinrich Schlier, ed. Kittel., Eerdmans, 1978).
Thayer's Lexicon:
"b. reflexively, to bow oneself: κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ ἐμοί, shall bow to me (in honor), i. e. everyone shall worship me, Romans 14:11 (from Isaiah 45:23); ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ, in devout recognition of the name (of κύριος) which Jesus received from God, Philippians 2:10 (cf. Winers Grammar, 390 (365); Lightfoot, Meyer, in the place cited; also ὄνομα, especially sub at the end. Compare: ἀνακάμπτω, συγκάμπτω)." https://biblehub.com/greek/2578.htm
"STRONGS NT 2578: κάμπτω
κάμπτω; future καμψω; 1 aorist ἐκαμψα;
a. to bend, bow: τό γόνυ (and τά γούνατα), the knee (the knees), used by Homer of those taking a seat or sitting down to rest (Iliad 7, 118; 19, 72); in Biblical Greek with the dative of person to one i. e. in honor of one, in religious veneration; used of worshippers: Romans 11:4 and 1 Kings 19:18 (where for כָּרַע followed by לְ); πρός τινα, toward (unto) one, Ephesians 3:14.
"b. reflexively, to bow oneself: κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ ἐμοί, shall bow to me (in honor), i. e. everyone shall worship me, Romans 14:11 (from Isaiah 45:23); ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ, in devout recognition of the name (of κύριος) which Jesus received from God, Philippians 2:10 (cf. Winers Grammar, 390 (365); Lightfoot, Meyer, in the place cited; also ὄνομα, especially sub at the end. Compare: ἀνακάμπτω, συγκάμπτω)."https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2578&t=KJV
"Vincent's Word Studies
At the name of Jesus (ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι)
Rev., better, in the name. The name means here the personal name; but as including all that is involved in the name. See on Matthew 28:19. Hence the salutation is not at the name of Jesus, as by bowing when the name is uttered, but, as Ellicott rightly says: "the spiritual sphere, the holy element as it were, in which every prayer is to be offered and every knee to bow." Compare Ephesians 5:20." https://biblehub.com/commentaries/philippians/2-10.htm
"kampo...2578..."to bend", is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration, Rom. 11:4; 14:11; Eph.3:14; Phil.2:10..." (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, 1996, p.75)
"2578...To bend, such as the knees, to which it is applied in the NT (Rom 11:4, "bent the knee in homage" [a.t.] or worship; Rom 11:4 quoted from Isa 45:23; Eph.3:14, followed by pros [4314], toward with the acc,: Phil 2:10)" (The Complete WordStudy Dictionary: New Testament, ed. Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D, 1993, p.817).
"2:10-11 These final verses of the christologial hymn describe the universal homage and acclamation that will be accorded the one whose name ranks above all others...the adoration is in honour of the exalted Christ...the parallel words of v.11b describe explicitly the act of reverence as paid directly to the Son and 'to the glory of God the Father'. It is clear that Jesus is the one being worshipped."
"...'Every knee shall bow'. The universal scope of the adoration offered to Jesus as Lord is described by the words 'every knee shall bow' and 'every tongue confess'. (v.11)...The bending of the knee was an expression denoting great reverence and submission in the OT, especially marking the humble approach of the worshipper who felt his need so keenly that he could not stand upright before God. While the usual position in prayer was that of standing (e.g., Je. 18:20; 1 Ki. 18:15; 17:1, etc), in times of special need or extremity the worshipper fell on his knees (so Ez. 9:5, 15). Likewise in the Gospels people stand to pray (Lk.18:11, 13) and Jesus assumes His disciples will stand (cf. Mt.6:5); but when there is an acute sense of need or urgent entreaty, the supplicant falls down before God. So Jesus in Gethsemane bows down in lowly submission and distress (Mt.26:9; Mk.14:35; Lk.22:41). The bowing of the knee here at Phil. 2:10, as Martin puts it, is 'a mark of extreme abasement and submission (as in Eph. iii.14) and denotes that the universal homage marks the subjection of those who kneel to the lordship of Christ'.47"
"...Is. 45:22-25...The Lord...swears solemnly by his own life that 'every knee will bow before me; by me every tongue will swear'...the words of v.23, which are reiterated in Phil. 2:10-11, express the notion of the universal and final homage to Yahweh.
"...By invoking Is.45:23 as its proof-text the author of the hymn and the...community in which the hymn originated live 'in confident expectation that this salvation will soon be universally visible'.55"
(The New International Greek Testament Commentary (NIGTC): The Epistle to the Phillipians, Peter T. Obrien, 1991, p.238, 240-243)
https://www.amazon.com/Epistle-Philippians-International-Testament-Commentary/dp/0802872131

A humongous data dump from multiple sites, most with no historical sources as in BDAG, mostly second hand because you have not seen the primary sources. But none of them disprove anything I quoted from BDAG which references more than 100 historical sources.

"Peter T. O'Brien - The Epistle to the Philippians (New International Greek Testament Commentary)...The experts’ consensus is that O’Brien’s commentary is the best available."

http://m.blogs.christianpost.com/overflow/best-commentaries-on-philippians-17202/

Individual blogs are unreliable and irrelevant.
And your selective quotes from Bible Hub ignored these references.

Gill’s Commentary
But inasmuch as this action is a token of reverence, worship; and subjection, it is used for those things themselves; and the sense is, that Christ is exalted as before described, that every creature may give him reverence, worship, and adoration, submit and be subject to him, as all do, and shall, either freely or forcedly. Some really and heartily trust in his name, are baptized in his name, and ascribe honour, and glory, and blessing to him from their whole hearts; and others feignedly, and whether they will or not, are subject to him, and sooner or later shall acknowledge his authority over them:
Matthew Poole
Then shall his equality with his Father, and his superlative glory as Mediator, be manifested to all, good and bad, angels as well as men, who shall be subjected to his sovereign Majesty, as the Lord God omnipotent; the good willingly, and the bad by constraint, Isaiah 45:23 Acts 17:31 Romans 2:16 14:10,11 2 Corinthians 5:10.
Upon Christ’s exaltation, all things above, and in the world, are subjected to his dominion. If it be said: On the earth, and under it, they rebel; I answer: They are bound to obey, Matthew 4:9,10, and will be forced to submit to the penalty for disobedience.
Jamieson, Fossett, Brown
under the earth—the dead; among whom He was numbered once (Ro 14:9, 11; Eph 4:9, 10; Re 5:13). The demons and the lost may be included indirectly, as even they give homage, though one of fear, not love, to Jesus (Mr 3:11; Lu 8:31; Jas 2:19, see on [2385]Php 2:11).
Barnes
But this does not mean that they will all be saved, for the guilty and the lost may be compelled to acknowledge his power, and submit to his decree as the sovereign of the universe. There is the free and cheerful homage of the heart which they who worship him in heaven will render; and there is the constrained homage which they must yield who are compelled to acknowledge his authority.
https://biblehub.com/greek/2578.htm

Der Alte · Aug 22, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
I never said eternal could not mean without end, I said aionios cannot as scripture tells us aion and its adjective END, and the reason I posted the etymology was to CORRECT you, showing that it does mean without beginning and without end which you had said it did not.
So now that you have been corrected we can move on.

You have not corrected me on anything, amigo. I don't think I said aionios does not mean "without beginning and without end" You OTOH have insisted that is the only meaning and you have not provided anything which proves that true.
.....Take a look at the lexical fallacy, Root fallacy. Your argument that aionios can only mean without beginning and without end is patently false and you have not provided any credible evidence to the contrary. However I have provided 23 passages which prove beyond any doubt that aionios means eternal. I don't care how many times you repeat "aion and its adjective END."
.....Endlessly repeating that over and over does NOT prove me wrong. For example this verse.

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]

In this verse the βασιλευσει, the verb form of the word, is aionas and the βασιλειας, the noun form of the same word "shall have no end." Therefore by definition αιωνας/aionas means eternal, i.e "shall have no end." No matter how many proof texts you quote, no matter what verbal gymnastics you try there is absolutely nothing you can say to disprove that.

Der Alte · Aug 22, 2018

ClementofA said:
It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:
1 Cor 6:9-11
"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
As a commentator says:
"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"
"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."
So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

I don't respond to copy/pastes from tents-r-us or any of your other pet UR websites. If you cannot express it in your own words it is not worth my time.

ClementofA · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
One specific reference, i.e. Is 45.23, from a Russian site, out of multiple paragraphs does not a rule make for the entire NT.

Evidently you didn't realize that Russian edu site quote i gave was from LSJ lexicon:

"...bend the knee in worship, LXXIs.45.23, etc"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=ka/mptw

Which gives the meaning of the word in the LXX and in the passage quoted in the NT which is being discussed.

Der Alter said:
A humongous data dump from multiple sites,

Actually several quotes were from books on my bookshelves.

Der Alter said:
most with no historical sources as in BDAG,

Who cares. Any 6 year old or demon could compile bigger lists of historical sources than those in BDAG. Does that mean the demons have the truth? They are quite capable of mixing 99% truth with 1% poison. It doesn't take much poison in food to kill. Just a tiny percentage. The number of historical sources listed is irrelevant to the truth. More relevant to the matter of the truth is what - spirit - motivates, inspires or possesses - the author. And is he capable of being unbiased in analyzing all the data in context. Not bits & pieces of selected sources BDAG lists, while ignoring & or omitting those that refute its views. And what motivates the author, filthy lucre?

Der Alter said:
mostly second hand because you have not seen the primary sources.

Have you seen the primary sources? No, you just blindly follow BDAG like God had died & made BDAG your Pope. Except of course on the rare occasion when you oppose BDAG with your private opinions which no scholar in the past 5000 years support & many oppose.

Der Alter said:
But none of them disprove anything I quoted from BDAG

Scholars often disagree with scholars. How are you going to prove or disprove them?

Der Alter said:
which references more than 100 historical sources.

Who cares. Any 6 year old or demon could compile bigger lists of historical sources than those in BDAG. Does that mean the demons have the truth? They are quite capable of mixing 99% truth with 1% poison. It doesn't take much poison in food to kill. Just a tiny percentage. The number of historical sources listed is irrelevant to the truth. More relevant to the matter of the truth is what - spirit - motivates, inspires or possesses - the author. And is he capable of being unbiased in analyzing all the data in context. Not bits & pieces of selected sources BDAG lists, while ignoring & or omitting those that refute its views. And what motivates the author, filthy lucre?

Der Alter said:
And your selective quotes from Bible Hub ignored these references.

That's because i was not quoting mere commentators & their opinions, but so-called language authorities which you often refer to. Such as this Greek scholar:

"Vincent's Word Studies
At the name of Jesus (ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι)
Rev., better, in the name. The name means here the personal name; but as including all that is involved in the name. See on Matthew 28:19. Hence the salutation is not at the name of Jesus, as by bowing when the name is uttered, but, as Ellicott rightly says: "the spiritual sphere, the holy element as it were, in which every prayer is to be offered and every knee to bow." Compare Ephesians 5:20." https://biblehub.com/commentaries/philippians/2-10.htm

ClementofA · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
I don't respond to copy/pastes from tents-r-us or any of your other pet UR websites. If you cannot express it in your own words it is not worth my time.

Except sometimes you do respond to such. You are inconsistent. And you ignored the Scripture that was posted:

Der Alter said:
And what did Paul say?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Pneuma3 · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
What you believe is irrelevant This just saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" and does not reply to the scripture I posted.

1 John 2:17
(17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Where does John say that the unrighteous will also definitely abide forever?
.....If John believed everyone will be saved regardless he would not specify only a certain group "he that does the will of God abides for ever." And his audience who had not been subjected to years of UR indoctrination, would not have understood that "he that does the will of God abides for ever." meant all mankind will be saved.

No no no I am not going to let you get away with that. You posted this scripture...

1 John 2:17
(17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

And then asked this question.....

Where does John say that the unrighteous will also definitely abide forever?

To which I replied....

LOL that is YOUR belief that says the unrighteous will definitely abide forever, not mine. I believe all the unrighteous will be changed via the cross and become righteous. For when Gods judgments are in the earth the world will learn righteousness.

I am not the one who is stating the unrighteous will definitely abide forever, YOU ARE.

You believe that verse is stating the unrighteous will abide forever in a state of torment, but nothing in that scripture states any such thing. However as a matter of fact my belief has history behind it and many reading, probably even yourself, at one time did not believe or do the will of God. Are you or they in eternal torment? NO, Why? because you now believe in Him and endeavor to do His will. Which backs up exactly what I had said if you have eyes to see it.

So go ahead and show us all where in that scripture John is saying those who do not believe in God are eternally tormented? As a matter of fact show us anywhere in scripture that plainly says God will eternally torment anyone. After all I have given you 7 scriptures that plainly tell us Jesus Christ IS the saviour of the world.

The only way you can get eternal torment out of any scripture is by reading eternal torment into the scripture.

Pneuma3 · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
I am talking about what John actually said, not speculation about what might or might not happen when the works of the devil are destroyed.

1 John 3:8
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Where does John say those who sin and are of the devil will definitely be saved?

No you are NOT talking about what John actually said, like the scripture before you are using this scripture as some kind of proof of eternal torment, yet John says nothing in that scripture that would lead anyone into believing in eternal torment unless one reads eternal torment into that scripture, which is what you are doing.

Tell me DA are you without sin? if not then when you sin you are doing the works of the devil. Jesus came so that he could destroy the works of the devil (sin) in mankind, behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. I simply believe Jesus does take away the sin/works of the devil from the world, you on the other hand believe Jesus will not destroy the works of the devil/sin and that God will abide sin/the works of the devil for all eternity.

Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

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