LDS LDS Temple Weddings are anti-family

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dzheremi

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I have, and since I can't read your mind as to how that's supposed to be an answer to my post, I have to wonder: do you have an actual reply to my post, or do you just want to post low-content nonsense that wastes this website's bandwidth?
 
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mmksparbud

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It is your opinion that Christ's suffering was greater on the cross than the agony He suffered in Gethsemane where He bled from every pore and He needed an angel to strengthen Him. However it is the only place that agony is mentioned in the Bible. I know He suffered great pain on the cross, but mental pain can be just as bitter if not worse.


His mental agony was far greater at the cross! for it was there that God had to withdraw His presence from Him. He still had the presence of God at Gethsemane. It was not withdrawn till He was at the cross for it was there that the sins of the world fell on Him who was sinless. He felt the burden of those sins which resulted in the removal of the presence of God causing the outcry--
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

There was no greater agony.
 
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Peter1000

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Yah---quite a difference. Not a one of us believes that God the father was ever human before becoming God and so can we, nor that we are the product of God the Father and a heavenly mother and existed before being born, not a one of us believes that God has an exclusive heaven for the "elite" and one for others, we all believe God will forgive all sins (except blasphemy against Holy Spirit) including murder or else Moses wouldn't be in heaven right now in the presence of God and Jesus, none of us believes that Satan made it possible for us to bear children and celebrate that, nothing we do is in deep, dark secret, not one of us have ever had to translate anything from God through rocks in a hat, He speaks directly to His people, not one of us has ever declared that no one can enter into God's Holy presence without their approval, not one of us has a prophet that was shot in the back trying to climb out a window shooting it out trying to protect themselves from someone trying to kill them--everyone of our martyrs died facing their oppressors and quietly submitting to their fate, none of us believe that Jesus paid the price at Gethsemane...…….long list, not one of which is in the bible. We all believe the same OT that Jesus read and taught and that the NT is the word of God also.
What you're doing hasn't helped anyone to learn the mind of God, just the mind of JS. The language of the original was Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, those who study those languages are to more accurately translate into English. There is no such thing as rocks that translate anything---not even the Thummim and Urim for they never ever translated but were a yes or no answer that lit up. Yup--quite a difference.
Not one of you on this forum believe, I understand that, but millions have believed JS and the church is growing every year from new converts directly from disappointed people that thought they knew the bible before they met the Mormons. Lots do not believe the missionaries, but millions do.

Your complete knowledge of how the Urim and Thummim operated is just about zero. These rocks gave information somehow, but information they did give, and as far as your knowledge is concerned about them, they could have acted just like the stone that JS received from Jesus Christ. So don't respond back that they didn't because no expert knows what they did, or could do.

Just 20 minutes with Jesus, face to face is worth all the writings of the religious doctors combined since the beginning of the world, even if they speak Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek.
 
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drstevej

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Peter 1000, Mormonism is a cult as much as is Warren Jeffs' crew. False gospel vs. False gospel. Counting noses doesn't make Joe $mith a prophet.

Now, please return to the OP topic.
LDS Temple Weddings are anti-family

I say yes. The Mormon Church sets the boundaries even when it divides families.
 
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Peter1000

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Mormons believe a false religion. I'm not condemning you. Your life isn't over but it will be.

Luke 16
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

After this life, it's too late to undo your consequence.
What this scripture does give us is that there are 2 places in the spirit world. 1 is a place of refuge or a place of rest or a "paradise". And the other is a place of torment, and place of despare,
or a "spirit prison".

Does this scripture tell us that the rich man had ever heard the name of Jesus Christ?
It does say that he knew of Moses. But what of Jesus? Do you think will send someone to hell before they have even learned about him, and his gospel?
 
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drstevej

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What this scripture does give us is that there are 2 places in the spirit world. 1 is a place of refuge or a place of rest or a "paradise". And the other is a place of torment, and place of despare,
or a "spirit prison".

Does this scripture tell us that the rich man had ever heard the name of Jesus Christ?
It does say that he knew of Moses. But what of Jesus? Do you think will send someone to hell before they have even learned about him, and his gospel?


How does this relate to the OP: LDS Temple Weddings are anti-family
 
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mmksparbud

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Not one of you on this forum believe, I understand that, but millions have believed JS and the church is growing every year from new converts directly from disappointed people that thought they knew the bible before they met the Mormons. Lots do not believe the missionaries, but millions do.

Your complete knowledge of how the Urim and Thummim operated is just about zero. These rocks gave information somehow, but information they did give, and as far as your knowledge is concerned about them, they could have acted just like the stone that JS received from Jesus Christ. So don't respond back that they didn't because no expert knows what they did, or could do.

Just 20 minutes with Jesus, face to face is worth all the writings of the religious doctors combined since the beginning of the world, even if they speak Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek.


What millions believe is not what matters---billions believe in Mohammed. What JS knew about the Thummim and Urim is just about zero that is why he could not describer accurately what they did. He should have done more research. I know JS is what you believe, and not truth, but for those who want to know truth:

"The Urim and Thummim (Heb. אוּרִים וְתֻמִּים) was a priestly device for obtaining oracles. On the high priest's ephod (an apron-like garment) lay a breastpiece (חֹשֶׁן) – a pouch inlaid with 12 precious stones engraved with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel – that held the Urim and Thummim (Ex. 28:15–30; Lev. 8:8). By means of the Urim, the priest inquired of YHWH on behalf of the ruler (Num. 27:21; cf. Yoma 7:5, "only for the king, the high court, or someone serving a need of the community"); they were one of the three legitimate means of obtaining oracles in early Israel (Urim, dreams, prophets; I Sam. 28:6). Owing to the oracular character of the Urim, the breastpiece is called "the breastpiece of decision" (חֹשֶׁן הַמִּשְׁפָּט). (The concept evokes "the Tablets of Destiny" in Babylonian mythology – the symbol of supreme authority that lay on the breast of the chief god; Pritchard, Texts, 63, 67, 111.) The right to work this oracle was reserved for the levitical priests (Deut. 33:8).

Occasionally the term ephod is used with reference to the Urim-oracle associated with it (I Sam. 14:3, 18 [according to LXX]; 23:6, 9; 30:7). The latest period for which there is evidence of use of the ephod-Urim is that of David (but cf. Hos. 3:4); subsequently, oracles are conveyed exclusively by prophets. In postexilic times, when the Urim oracle was extinct, difficult questions were reserved "until a priest would appear with Urim and Thummim" (Ezra 2:63; Neh. 7:65; cf. Sot. 9:12: "After the former (i.e., pre-exilic) prophets died, the Urim and Thummim became extinct"; and Josephus (Ant. 3:218), who avers that the oracle ceased 200 years before his time).

There is no biblical information on the appearance of the Urim, the material out of which they were made (the Samaritan text of Ex. 28:30; 39:21 adds a command to manufacture the Urim and tells of its execution), or the technique of their use. The most illuminating passage is the Greek of I Samuel 14:41, whose underlying Hebrew is mutilated in the received texts: הָבָה תָמִים, conventionally rendered "Give a perfect answer":

Saul said: "O YHWH God of Israel, why have you not answered your servant this day? If the guilt be in me or in my son Jonathan. O YHWH God of Israel, give Urim (הָבָה אוּרִים). But if this guilt is in your people Israel, give Thummim (הָבָה תֻמִּים)."

(For a defense of the received Hebrew, however, see M. Tsevat. in Sefer Segal (1955), 78–84.)

From the use of the verbs hippil and nilkad in connection with the Urim (verses 41–42), it appears that they were a kind of lot ((marked) stones or sticks?), since these verbs occur in connection with the casting of lots (Isa. 34:17; I Sam. 10:20). They were suitable for indicating which of two alternatives was right; hence inquiries to be decided by them were designed to elicit "yes" or "no" answers (I Sam. 23:10–12;30:8).

The etymology of the terms is obscure. From the Greek passage adduced above, it seems that the two terms are the names of two objects. Hence the conjecture that Urim derives from ʾ arar, "curse," and Thummim from tammam, "be whole," indicating negation and affirmation respectively. Tradition has connected the first term with light (ʾ or) or instruction (Aram. ʾ oraita). Thus both Greek δήλωσις καὶ ʾ αλήθεια, "declaration/revelation and truth," and Vulgate doctrina et veritas, "teaching and truth," treat the pair as a hendiadys meaning true instruction – with reference to the oracle. (An apparent derivative with this meaning is the novel coinage אורתום, found in the Qumran Thanksgiving Psalms Scroll with reference to divine illumination (4:6, 23; 18:29; see J. Licht's commentary to 4:6)). A talmudic interpretation finds an allusion to the unequivocalness of the oracle in two words: "They cause their message to be lucid [מאירין]… and carried out [משלימין]" (Yoma 73b).

The earliest speculation on the technique of the oracle is reflected in Josephus (Ant. 3:217), who states that victory was forecast by the shining of the stones in the breastpiece. The talmudists fancied that the oracle was spelled out by the miraculous protruding of letters out of the tribal names engraved on the stones (Yoma 73b; Maim. Yad, Kele ha-Mikdash, 10:11). Rashi takes account of the separate existence of the Urim by making them a document bearing the tetragrammaton, whose presence inside the breastpiece insured the clarity and perfection of the oracle (comment to Ex. 28:30 and Yoma 73a; cf. Samuel b. Meir, who calls the Urim a kind of conjuration by divine names). Naḥmanides (at Ex. 28:30) combines the various strands of interpretation: the Urim was a text bearing divine names placed inside the breastpiece, by virtue of which various letters out of the tribes' names lit up; the Thummim were other divine names by whose virtue the priest was able to combine the letters perfectly into the divine message.

To the names of the 12 tribes engraved on the breastpiece were added those of the three Patriarchs, together with the word shevet ("tribe") so as to encompass the whole alphabet (Yoma 73b). Interpreting Urim to mean "those whose words give light" and Thummim as "those whose words are fulfilled," the rabbis explain that the oracle was effected by rays of light shining on the letters, or protruding from them and forming themselves into groups (Yoma 73b), so that the high priest could read them. Only priests speaking by means of the holy spirit and upon whom the Shekhinah rested could invoke them. The inquirer had his face directed toward the high priest, who directed himself to the Shekhinah. One did not inquire either in a loud voice or silently in his heart, but like Hannah, who muttered her prayer (I Sam 1:13). Only one question was to be put at a time, and if two were asked, only the first was answered. However, if the occasion required two questions, both were answered. Unlike the decrees of a prophet, those of the Urim and Thummim could not be revoked. Only a king or a head of the Sanhedrin could inquire from the Urim and Thummim (Yoma 73a–b). The division of the land was effected by means of the Urim and Thummim (RB 122a). Saul and David consulted them (Mid. Ps. 27:2). The Urim and Thummim ceased to give oracular answers immediately after the death of the first prophets (Sot. 9:12), i.e., the destruction of the First Temple (Sot. 48b). However according to the Jerusalem Talmud (Sot. 9:14, 24b), the "first prophets" refers to Samuel and David and according to this view the Urim and Thummim did not function in the First Temple period either."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-urim-and-thummim
 
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Peter1000

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Well, you -- the Mormon -- would know, wouldn't you? We -- the non-Mormons -- wouldn't know.

Normal Mormon families have no problem with the children and adults that do not have recommends waiting in the garden area until the wedding is finished. This is the normal wedding for Mormons.
So if you want to know, if this is a bone rubbing bone irritation for you, then come and get a recommend and participate.
You can participate with illegally posted pictures by people who lied 3 times about their purpose for getting a recommend, which now puts them squarely in satans hands. As you know, God hates a liar. So these people who think they have done such a noble thing, have sold their souls to satan and will be his after this life, unless they repent and mend their ways.

As soon as Jesus tells us we can explain in detail what goes on in the temple, we will, but not until then.

Read the article. It talks about the differences in marriage requirements for Mormons inside of the United Sates and outside of it, as well as the development of Mormon marriage practices away from what had been the historical standard to something that is more restrictive.

The temple wedding requirements are the same whether you are in the US or not. What has been historical standard practices make little difference to us. We do what Jesus tells us to do regardless of historical standards. And yes the requirements are much more strict in temple marriages. That is why our divorce rate for practicing temple Mormons is quite a bit lower than your normal garden variety marriage.

I don't care about your organization's lies, Peter. This ridiculous narrative has nothing to do with the topic of how anti-family Mormon temple weddings are, as such occult ceremonies were not founded by Christ or the apostles at any point.

Your idea of accult ceremonies does come straight from the bible. A person married by one who holds the keys of the kingdom, which the 12 apostles held, was blessed in that heaven also recorded this binding and it is bound for eternity. Heaven being an eternal place. So one not married by one who holds the keys is not recognized in heaven, and so their marriage is only good until death do them part.
You need to know that after Peter died, his keys died with him and as the apostles were all horribly killed their keys too died with them. You need to study what the binding and loosing powers (keys of the kingdom) were all about. They have to do with the Melchizadec priesthood, which you know nothing of.

Millenialism is condemned by the ancient Church, down through to today. "Whose kingdom will have no end."

So you do not believe in the second coming or the 1,000 years of peace as Jesus reigns?
What do you think we will be doing in that 1,000 years?

Hahaha. Peter, did you read and think about the first sentence that you wrote before writing that second sentence in this passage?

The idea that there are Mormons that do not get a temple marriage is absolutely that they do not want to covenant with the Lord to live a higher life style. For instance: no drinking, no adultery, attend the temple and other regular church meeting, pay their tithing etc. This shouldn't be seen as a funny, but as unwilling to come to Christ.
 
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Peter1000

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The point for me is not in whether or not you continue to live or you die (I believe that there is some sense in which you continue to live, the martyrs mentioned in Revelation being one example, though we do not know exactly how), but about how time may be experienced after death. If you think that these 'spirit beings', as you call them, have concern about how long it will take for them to get baptized by proxy in the Mormon religion, then they must have some way of measuring time. How do they do that? Do they wear 'spirit watches' or keep 'spirit datebooks'?

From the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, what form do you think they were in as they lived after death?
If I were to say yes, there are 'spirit watches' or 'spirit datebooks', you could not dispute me, not knowing exactly how things are there.

No need. There's only one way. To borrow liberally from the Byzantine Troparion for the Resurrection, "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and offering life to those in the tombs."

You accept Christ's offer. The end. No Mormon missionaries needed.

I hope I die before you so I can usher you into the spirit world and show you the authority that Jesus Christ has given the missionaries to bring the gospel to the billions upon billions of his creation that did not know even his name, let alone the tenets of the gospel. There is a lot of work to be done before the millienium comes on both sides of the vail between life on earth and life in the spirit world. And that work will continue all the way to the end of the millenium. That work is the saving of souls for EL in the KOG. It cannot all be done here on earth. Think about how technilogically advanced we are today, but have no capacity to go to all the earth and proclaim the gospel. The Mormons and general Christian missionaries do a great job, but will not be able to teach 100% of God's created people. The rest will be done in the spirit world and the millenium. Then comes the final judgement when all can be judged according to their works and be resurrected unto life or unto damnation. This judgement cannot take place until all have the opportunity to hear about Jesus and learn his gospel.

No we don't. Joseph Smith never received any revelation. (At least not from God...)

This will be another surprise to you when you get to the other side, to see how close JS is to Jesus Christ.

So I guess both the OT (Psalm 90) and the NT (2 Peter 3) are wrong when they say that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day? I don't think they are, but apparently you and/or JS know better than the Holy Bible.

Like I say 1/2 hour with Jesus Christ personally is worth all the guess work of all the philosphers and doctors of religion since the world began. So yes, the Bible is important, but there are many, many more important concepts that are not clearly delineated in the Bible, that JS has learned directly from the mouth of Jesus Christ, and other heavenly messengers to help save souls in our generations.

Clearly. What do you think every single Christian has been trying to tell the Mormons in their lives when you guys blatantly contradict the scriptures in favor of your chosen false revelation? The difference being that we have 2,000 years of apostolic tradition and faith (including of course the scriptures themselves and all the works of the fathers who wrote them, preserved them, and canonized them) to fall back on, whereas for Mormonism, if Joseph Smith was a false prophet -- and I won't mince words here, few things have ever been so clear as Joseph Smith's false prophethood is -- the entire edifice of the religion crumbles to dust and is shown to be nothing more than the avarice and rebellion against God that one particularly persuasive 19th century conman displayed, codified into a false religion sold to those who are starved of anything resembling the Christian faith, all the while being told and repeating that they are the only true faith left on the earth.

We too have the same 2,000 years of apostolic tradition and faith, but we also have live oracles (prophets) that receive information that pertains to our time and our problems. What would you rather have, 2,000 years of tradition, or current revelation through a prophet of God speaking directly with Jesus? For instance, the Christian churches have continually moved away from the original church organization in the first century. Jesus told JS to restore the first century church with the same organization that existed then. So he did. If we are starving, it is not for the 2,000 inconsistent traditions that are all over the map, it is for a link directly to Jesus Christ and what he says we should do. That is what JS wanted, and he became the first prophet in this last dispensation before the millenium to be a living oracle of Jesus Christ and it is growing world wide and will continue to grow world wide until all nations know the name of Jesus Christ and his gospel.

Lord have mercy on all of us.
 
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Peter1000

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How does this relate to the OP: LDS Temple Weddings are anti-family
Why do you single me out to get back to the OP, everyone else is off OP. Let's see you be as dutiful to others too. I will now stay on OP unless someone, who is not on OP responds to something and I will respond to in kind.
 
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Peter1000

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What millions believe is not what matters---billions believe in Mohammed. What JS knew about the Thummim and Urim is just about zero that is why he could not describer accurately what they did. He should have done more research. I know JS is what you believe, and not truth, but for those who want to know truth:

"The Urim and Thummim (Heb. אוּרִים וְתֻמִּים) was a priestly device for obtaining oracles. On the high priest's ephod (an apron-like garment) lay a breastpiece (חֹשֶׁן) – a pouch inlaid with 12 precious stones engraved with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel – that held the Urim and Thummim (Ex. 28:15–30; Lev. 8:8). By means of the Urim, the priest inquired of YHWH on behalf of the ruler (Num. 27:21; cf. Yoma 7:5, "only for the king, the high court, or someone serving a need of the community"); they were one of the three legitimate means of obtaining oracles in early Israel (Urim, dreams, prophets; I Sam. 28:6). Owing to the oracular character of the Urim, the breastpiece is called "the breastpiece of decision" (חֹשֶׁן הַמִּשְׁפָּט). (The concept evokes "the Tablets of Destiny" in Babylonian mythology – the symbol of supreme authority that lay on the breast of the chief god; Pritchard, Texts, 63, 67, 111.) The right to work this oracle was reserved for the levitical priests (Deut. 33:8).

Occasionally the term ephod is used with reference to the Urim-oracle associated with it (I Sam. 14:3, 18 [according to LXX]; 23:6, 9; 30:7). The latest period for which there is evidence of use of the ephod-Urim is that of David (but cf. Hos. 3:4); subsequently, oracles are conveyed exclusively by prophets. In postexilic times, when the Urim oracle was extinct, difficult questions were reserved "until a priest would appear with Urim and Thummim" (Ezra 2:63; Neh. 7:65; cf. Sot. 9:12: "After the former (i.e., pre-exilic) prophets died, the Urim and Thummim became extinct"; and Josephus (Ant. 3:218), who avers that the oracle ceased 200 years before his time).

There is no biblical information on the appearance of the Urim, the material out of which they were made (the Samaritan text of Ex. 28:30; 39:21 adds a command to manufacture the Urim and tells of its execution), or the technique of their use. The most illuminating passage is the Greek of I Samuel 14:41, whose underlying Hebrew is mutilated in the received texts: הָבָה תָמִים, conventionally rendered "Give a perfect answer":

Saul said: "O YHWH God of Israel, why have you not answered your servant this day? If the guilt be in me or in my son Jonathan. O YHWH God of Israel, give Urim (הָבָה אוּרִים). But if this guilt is in your people Israel, give Thummim (הָבָה תֻמִּים)."

(For a defense of the received Hebrew, however, see M. Tsevat. in Sefer Segal (1955), 78–84.)

From the use of the verbs hippil and nilkad in connection with the Urim (verses 41–42), it appears that they were a kind of lot ((marked) stones or sticks?), since these verbs occur in connection with the casting of lots (Isa. 34:17; I Sam. 10:20). They were suitable for indicating which of two alternatives was right; hence inquiries to be decided by them were designed to elicit "yes" or "no" answers (I Sam. 23:10–12;30:8).

The etymology of the terms is obscure. From the Greek passage adduced above, it seems that the two terms are the names of two objects. Hence the conjecture that Urim derives from ʾ arar, "curse," and Thummim from tammam, "be whole," indicating negation and affirmation respectively. Tradition has connected the first term with light (ʾ or) or instruction (Aram. ʾ oraita). Thus both Greek δήλωσις καὶ ʾ αλήθεια, "declaration/revelation and truth," and Vulgate doctrina et veritas, "teaching and truth," treat the pair as a hendiadys meaning true instruction – with reference to the oracle. (An apparent derivative with this meaning is the novel coinage אורתום, found in the Qumran Thanksgiving Psalms Scroll with reference to divine illumination (4:6, 23; 18:29; see J. Licht's commentary to 4:6)). A talmudic interpretation finds an allusion to the unequivocalness of the oracle in two words: "They cause their message to be lucid [מאירין]… and carried out [משלימין]" (Yoma 73b).

The earliest speculation on the technique of the oracle is reflected in Josephus (Ant. 3:217), who states that victory was forecast by the shining of the stones in the breastpiece. The talmudists fancied that the oracle was spelled out by the miraculous protruding of letters out of the tribal names engraved on the stones (Yoma 73b; Maim. Yad, Kele ha-Mikdash, 10:11). Rashi takes account of the separate existence of the Urim by making them a document bearing the tetragrammaton, whose presence inside the breastpiece insured the clarity and perfection of the oracle (comment to Ex. 28:30 and Yoma 73a; cf. Samuel b.
Meir, who calls the Urim a kind of conjuration by divine names). Naḥmanides (at Ex. 28:30) combines the various strands of interpretation: the Urim was a text bearing divine names placed inside the breastpiece, by virtue of which various letters out of the tribes' names lit up; the Thummim were other divine names by whose virtue the priest was able to combine the letters perfectly into the divine message.

To the names of the 12 tribes engraved on the breastpiece were added those of the three Patriarchs, together with the word shevet ("tribe") so as to encompass the whole alphabet (Yoma 73b). Interpreting Urim to mean "those whose words give light" and Thummim as "those whose words are fulfilled," the rabbis explain that the oracle was effected by rays of light shining on the letters, or protruding from them and forming themselves into groups (Yoma 73b), so that the high priest could read them. Only priests speaking by means of the holy spirit and upon whom the Shekhinah rested could invoke them. The inquirer had his face directed toward the high priest, who directed himself to the Shekhinah. One did not inquire either in a loud voice or silently in his heart, but like Hannah, who muttered her prayer (I Sam 1:13). Only one question was to be put at a time, and if two were asked, only the first was answered. However, if the occasion required two questions, both were answered. Unlike the decrees of a prophet, those of the Urim and Thummim could not be revoked. Only a king or a head of the Sanhedrin could inquire from the Urim and Thummim (Yoma 73a–b). The division of the land was effected by means of the Urim and Thummim (RB 122a). Saul and David consulted them (Mid. Ps. 27:2). The Urim and Thummim ceased to give oracular answers immediately after the death of the first prophets (Sot. 9:12), i.e., the destruction of the First Temple (Sot. 48b). However according to the Jerusalem Talmud (Sot. 9:14, 24b), the "first prophets" refers to Samuel and David and according to this view the Urim and Thummim did not function in the First Temple period either."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-urim-and-thummim

Meir, who calls the Urim a kind of conjuration by divine names). Naḥmanides (at Ex. 28:30) combines the various strands of interpretation: the Urim was a text bearing divine names placed inside the breastpiece, by virtue of which various letters out of the tribes' names lit up; the Thummim were other divine names by whose virtue the priest was able to combine the letters perfectly into the divine message.

Notice the words here:
1) combines various strands of interpretation
2) text bearing, not just 'yes' or 'no'
3)the priest was able to combine the letters perfectly into a divine message. Again, not just 'yes' or 'no'.

This sounds a lot like what JS did with the Urim and Thummim that was given to him. So thank you for your reasearch on this matter. JS combined letters perfectly into a divine message for you to know what Jesus wanted you to know. The U&T allowed JS to interpret correctly the divine message and put it into text form. Good going.
 
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drstevej

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Normal Mormon families have no problem with the children and adults that do not have recommends waiting in the garden area until the wedding is finished. This is the normal wedding for Mormons.

the issue is not what is normal it is whether the "norm" is anti-family. Non-Mormons are barred from viewing the ceremony even if they are family members, right?
 
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ArmenianJohn

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The fact remains that mormonism as a religion continues to cause family strife and division by deeming certain people "worthy" of their temples and deeming those very people's own FAMILIES, including PARENTS as UNWORTHY to attend the wedding of their own family/children!

This is a fact mormons cannot get around. It's one thing if they want to have anti-family practices but they really need to stop portraying themselves as being "family oriented" or anything of the sort.

Mormonism is far more anti-family than any denomination in Christianity.
 
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dzheremi

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Normal Mormon families have no problem with the children and adults that do not have recommends waiting in the garden area until the wedding is finished. This is the normal wedding for Mormons.

Well then what you consider normal is really not healthy.

So if you want to know, if this is a bone rubbing bone irritation for you, then come and get a recommend and participate.

No. I don't want to be a Mormon. I don't believe in Mormonism. It is false.

You can participate with illegally posted pictures by people who lied 3 times about their purpose for getting a recommend, which now puts them squarely in satans hands.

Then the Mormon religion's policy put them there.

As you know, God hates a liar. So these people who think they have done such a noble thing, have sold their souls to satan and will be his after this life, unless they repent and mend their ways.

Why threaten people's souls in order to uphold your religion's shamefully anti-family policies? Does adding spiritual bullying to the list of things wrong with your religion's approach to this scenario do anything to justify the situation on the ground for so many Mormon families? I don't think it does.

As soon as Jesus tells us we can explain in detail what goes on in the temple, we will, but not until then.

I can't speak about the Mormon Jesus figure you follow, but the Christ of Christianity explicitly tells us in Gospel of St. Matthew "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." (Matthew 5:14-16)

The Mormon religion's unwillingness to let its light so shine before men tells us a great deal about what it is really about, and it is not what it says that it is about.

I'd like to imagine that if I were a Mormon, I'd be more concerned about following what Christ has already said than waiting for new instructions (just as I am as a Christian). Your religion is very big on its "milk before meat" philosophy, is it not? Perhaps it should follow it here.

What has been historical standard practices make little difference to us.

This is another deeply disturbing aspect of Mormonism.

We do what Jesus tells us to do regardless of historical standards.

Hmm. Did you consider the implications of this statement before you wrote it? I ask because it seems very obviously self-contradictory to me.

And yes the requirements are much more strict in temple marriages. That is why our divorce rate for practicing temple Mormons is quite a bit lower than your normal garden variety marriage.

By what evidence is such a correlation established? From everything I've read, the divorce rates among LDS are roughly equal to those of non-LDS, with the only difference being that "temple marriages" which end in divorce often do so secularly, i.e., without being registered as divorces within the temple system. Hence the figure that only 6% or whatever of temple marriages end in divorce is extremely misleading, as that only counts the percentage that go through the "cancellation of sealing" process (which I didn't even know was a thing, but apparently it is).

A quote from the link:

"Overall, the Mormon divorce rate appears to be no different from the average American divorce rate. A 1999 study by Barna Research of nearly 4,000 U.S. adults showed that 24% of Mormon marriages end in divorce -- a number statistically equal to the divorce rate among all Americans. Members of non-denominational churches (typically Fundamentalist in teaching) and born-again Christians experience a significantly higher divorce rate; Agnostics and Atheists have much a lower rate."

So apparently if you really want to brag about this statistic, you should be an agnostic or an atheist, not a Mormon. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Your idea of accult ceremonies does come straight from the bible.

Why are you attempting to tell me where my ideas come from? Please don't implicate me in your false reading of the scriptures.

A person married by one who holds the keys of the kingdom, which the 12 apostles held, was blessed in that heaven also recorded this binding and it is bound for eternity. Heaven being an eternal place. So one not married by one who holds the keys is not recognized in heaven, and so their marriage is only good until death do them part.

What is all this? See, I don't want anything to do with this bizarre nonsense. This is not in keeping with the scriptures at all, nor the fathers, nor any traditional source of the Christian faith.

You need to know that after Peter died, his keys died with him

With the caveat that the keys are not literal as you appear to be making them by having them be a 'thing' possessed of the man himself (a rather 'Roman Catholic' view of the matter, if I may say so; curious), rather than symbolic of the authority vested in the apostles, this understanding makes me wonder: How can keys 'die'?

and as the apostles were all horribly killed their keys too died with them.

St. John died a natural death on Patmos.

You need to study what the binding and loosing powers (keys of the kingdom) were all about. They have to do with the Melchizadec priesthood, which you know nothing of.

I don't think I need to do that, no.

So you do not believe in the second coming or the 1,000 years of peace as Jesus reigns?
What do you think we will be doing in that 1,000 years?

Chiliasm was condemned long enough ago to make it into the Nicene Creed, where it is refuted with the words "Whose kingdom shall have no end." This is what I believe.

The idea that there are Mormons that do not get a temple marriage is absolutely that they do not want to covenant with the Lord to live a higher life style. For instance: no drinking, no adultery, attend the temple and other regular church meeting, pay their tithing etc. This shouldn't be seen as a funny, but as unwilling to come to Christ.

I find your arrogance towards others not wanting to participate in your occult ceremonies to be rather funny, in a sad way. It certainly shouldn't be this way, but when it comes down to it, it's about how you feel superior to your fellow Mormons because you are willing to dress up like the Muffin Man and give special secret handshakes to a guy behind a curtain. I find that inherently funny.

If Christ were involved, I would certainly take it seriously. As it is, however, it seems right that those who would put themselves above others on account of such things should be reminded that in reality this is not how things are (you are not special or better than anyone because you participate in occult ceremonies), but just the same maybe a change of attitude at least towards your fellow Mormons could do wonders in making them want to come to the temple. Is that too crazy to suggest? I know I wouldn't want to go to liturgy if everyone there had a 'holier-than-thou' vibe about them. I'm going to guess that Mormons, on account of their also being people, would probably say the same about people who give off an air of superiority around them.
 
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dzheremi

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From the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, what form do you think they were in as they lived after death?

How should I know? I've only ever been alive so far, and by the time I get to know, I won't be in any kind of position to tell this website about it. There better not be internet in the afterlife...

If I were to say yes, there are 'spirit watches' or 'spirit datebooks', you could not dispute me, not knowing exactly how things are there.

Well that's pretty silly, Peter. Neither of us could likewise dispute that they're not making homemade ice cream, going to a luau, or taking hang-gliding lessons, but that doesn't make any of that any more likely to be the case. This is really a non-argument.

I hope I die before you so I can usher you into the spirit world and show you the authority that Jesus Christ has given the missionaries to bring the gospel to the billions upon billions of his creation that did not know even his name, let alone the tenets of the gospel.

Ooo...

Um...this is not a good thing to say, I don't think. I think you mean it in a nice way, but I am not with you on this, since I don't believe in the Mormon vision of the afterlife, so all of that is a lie. I don't want you to die in hopes of experiencing a lie. I would really rather that you and all Mormons leave Mormonism for Christianity, but I don't think it is wise to make the case for it by appealing to this or that vision of the afterlife when none of us can say with certainty how it is. I quite like the rousing speech given at the funeral of the Alexandrian martyrs of the Church of the Saints' bombing in 2011 by HG Bishop Moussa, which I think I've shared with you before. HG says something like "We will have joy in the resurrection, and that the saints who we have called upon while on earth will be with us. We called upon the Theotokos, and she is there with us! And upon St. George, and he is there with us! And upon St. Mina, and he is there with us! And if you ask these saints how long we will enjoy our lives together, they will say forever, as the Lord has told us and them 'As long as I live, you too shall live'. So it will never end."

So that is my conception of heaven (in so far as I have one; I really just like the speech, I think), but I wouldn't say to a Mormon or any other non-Christian "I hope I die before you so that I can show you what the afterlife will be like/how it will be like my Church says it is", because that's assuming I'll be going somewhere where I can show others around, and that how people on earth teach about the afterlife is actually how it is, and so on.

There is a lot of work to be done before the millienium comes on both sides of the vail between life on earth and life in the spirit world. And that work will continue all the way to the end of the millenium.

I don't get this millennium business. Again, chiliasm is wrong.

That work is the saving of souls for EL in the KOG. It cannot all be done here on earth. Think about how technilogically advanced we are today, but have no capacity to go to all the earth and proclaim the gospel.

How do you figure that? Anywhere you can go that has people living there is a place you can go to proclaim the gospel, if you're courageous and rich/well-connected enough. Some peoples and societies are very resistant to it, of course, but it's not a matter of technology. It's a matter of funding/connections and the will to do it.

The Mormons and general Christian missionaries do a great job, but will not be able to teach 100% of God's created people. The rest will be done in the spirit world and the millenium.

Am I wrong to think that if this is an a priori stance meant to justify Mormonism's afterlife missionary program, then it is going to become a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy? Meaning, if you didn't have this idea of "We'll get to them later", you'd be more inclined to be trying to get to them now. (That's not saying that Mormons don't do that, of course, because you guys do, but it seems a little strange if you're saying ahead of time "We're not going to get to reach everyone"...do you know something about the future of Mormonism that we don't?)

Then comes the final judgement when all can be judged according to their works and be resurrected unto life or unto damnation. This judgement cannot take place until all have the opportunity to hear about Jesus and learn his gospel.

No, I'm fairly certain that the final judgment can and will occur when God decides that it will, not according to what sort of job the Mormons are doing in reaching everyone. Remember that the scriptures tell us that it will come as a thief in the night. (1 Thessalonians 5:2)

This will be another surprise to you when you get to the other side, to see how close JS is to Jesus Christ.

Lord have mercy. I'm sorry my friend, but this is nothing but spiritual delusion.

Like I say 1/2 hour with Jesus Christ personally is worth all the guess work of all the philosphers and doctors of religion since the world began. So yes, the Bible is important, but there are many, many more important concepts that are not clearly delineated in the Bible

Even though I don't quite agree with this way of looking at things to begin with (if the standard is what is "clearly delineated in the Bible", who gets to decide what is 'clear'?), I would point out that this is essentially an argument in favor of the apostolic and early church fathers, who in other contexts have been widely abused by Mormons on this very website. So that's really curious to see.

that JS has learned directly from the mouth of Jesus Christ, and other heavenly messengers to help save souls in our generations.

Joseph Smith is not a person I would follow, regardless of what he said (in several different versions) about being given some kind instruction or revelation from Christ. Such things are not to be trusted, and anyway need not be listened to, as they amount to nothing in the face of the witness of those who actually walked with Christ, such as our beloved apostle and evangelist St. Mark.

We too have the same 2,000 years of apostolic tradition and faith

No you don't. How can you and still believe in the "great apostasy" idea that is the entire reason your religion exists? Did you just forget about that somehow?

but we also have live oracles (prophets) that receive information that pertains to our time and our problems. What would you rather have, 2,000 years of tradition, or current revelation through a prophet of God speaking directly with Jesus?

The true tradition of the Church, hands down. What the Bible calls the "Tradition of God" (Paradosis tou Theou). There's no question. 'Oracles' are more of a pagan thing.

For instance, the Christian churches have continually moved away from the original church organization in the first century.

Prove it.

Jesus told JS to restore the first century church with the same organization that existed then. So he did.

No he didn't. There was no "first presidency" in the early Church, no "prophet, seer, and revelator", no "stakes" or "wards", and no "temples" full of occult rituals.

If we are starving, it is not for the 2,000 inconsistent traditions that are all over the map

Not to be too on the nose about it, but maybe if your religion hadn't been invented in the 1820s and 1830s, you'd have more traditions.

it is for a link directly to Jesus Christ and what he says we should do.

You do not have such a link, so indeed you must be starving for it. (Re-read the syntax of your sentence: "If we are starving, it is not for 2,000 inconsistent traditions that are all over the map; it is for a link directly to Jesus Christ and what he says we should do" says the exact opposite of what I assume you were meaning to say. :doh::sorry:)

That is what JS wanted, and he became the first prophet in this last dispensation before the millenium to be a living oracle of Jesus Christ and it is growing world wide and will continue to grow world wide until all nations know the name of Jesus Christ and his gospel.

Well at least now you are admitting that your religion is built around the wants of Joseph Smith.

Lord have mercy on all of us.

Amen.
 
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Peter1000

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the issue is not what is normal it is whether the "norm" is anti-family. Non-Mormons are barred from viewing the ceremony even if they are family members, right?
Since it is normal it does not divide a family nor is it anti-family. The Mormon church is the most family and extended family oriented organization in the world. Our doctrine extends the family unit before earth life and after earth life. What you see on earth was a model found in heaven. The family unit will continue if you wish it to. For those that disbelieve, they will not be in a family unit for eternity.

Normal Christian doctrine says there was no such thing as pre earth families and there is no such thing as post earth families. But for some reason God set up the family organization just for earth only. That doctrine is anti-family.
 
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drstevej

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You are changing the subject again, which is Mormon Weddings excluding family members.

I repeat

Non-Mormons are barred from viewing the ceremony even if they are family members, right?
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Normal Christian doctrine says there was no such thing as pre earth families and there is no such thing as post earth families. But for some reason God set up the family organization just for earth only. That doctrine is anti-family.
The doctrine is not anti-family, it simply acknowledges that families only exist within our temporal earthly world.

Saying it's "anti-family" is like saying that it's "anti-rabbit" because rabbits didn't exist before the creation of the world and won't exist after the end of the world. It's really silly.

As for the mormon policy of excluding family members from their own family, that is an anti-family policy and doctrine.

Mormon religion claims that only "worthy" people can exist with their other "worthy" family members in the afterlife. However, the reality is that only about 10% of mormons can be even permitted to TRY to be "worthy". The other 90% aren't even in the running. So how can a family be together forever when only 10% of them are even allowed to attempt to be "worthy"?

The mormon religion pushes the concept of "forever families" to entice people to the organization. It then makes them jump through hoops just to have a chance at becoming part of a "forever family".

"Families can be together forever. To enjoy this blessing we must be married in the temple. When people are married outside the temple, the marriage ends when one of the partners dies.… If we keep our covenants with the Lord, our families will be united eternally as husband, wife and children. Death cannot separate us”(Gospel Principles, 2009 ed., p. 209)."

What are the chances of husband, wife, and children becoming a "forever family"? ALL of them must become part of the 10% of mormons who are allowed to enter the temple (which means they have to pay money, all of them, to enter). After that they must perform all their works. While performing all their works, they cannot break their covenants. As soon as they do, they are no longer going to Celestial Kingdom heaven. They are no longer part of the "forever family". As for the rest of the family, they will now be together forever WITHOUT that one (or more likely all those ones) who couldn't keep their covenants.

So, even if an individual makes it to Celestial Kingdom top heaven, if the other family members don't do their end, then guess what - NO FOREVER FAMILY!!!

So why do they use this bait? Because it sounds like such a comforting nice thought and people WANT to believe it!

But their sign is right there in the Temple Wedding - they will EXCLUDE any family members who are not "WORTHY".

Mormonism pretends to be about family but it's not about family - it's about working to earn salvation from a god who is nothing more than an ATM machine. Whatever you put into that god in works, he returns it to you in what mormons call "blessings" (and what anyone else would call payment or compensation).

Mormonism is anti-family both here on earth and in their own afterlife where "forever families" will exclude anyone who doesn't use the ATM god of mormonism correctly.
 
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