CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY

Choir Loft · Aug 11, 2018

ClementofA said:
If God is NOT going to save all mankind no matter what, why is there not one single verse where God, Himself or Jesus Himself clearly states that all mankind will NOT be saved?

[Note: I may have misunderstood the quote above or the question applied. Be that as it may, to the best of my understanding here is my reply.]

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 7:13

Jesus is using an allusion to make His point here. Every major city of Jesus' time had walls and gates. Gates were open during daylight hours and closed at night. In the evening, one small gate was left open. This narrow gate was only wide enough to allow one person at a time to enter.

The verse quoted by Christ above is most commonly used to illustrate the smaller number of saved persons and the large number of unsaved. It illustrates Jesus' point that most people would actively refuse to enter.

A common misunderstanding of the gospel casts evil aspersions upon God by implying HE is denying access to the Holy City. In contrast to this mistaken idea, Jesus claims God is offering an opportunity to anyone who WANTS to enter. It is apparent to this day in the attitude of the majority of folks that they do NOT want to make use of God's most generous offer of immortality. They prefer their sins and to die in them. (John 3:19)

That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins." - Jesus as quoted by John 8:24

ClementofA said:
In fact, why aren't there dozens of verses - CLEARLY - stating, in unambiguous terms, that some will NEVER be saved?

Such verses in the frequency you require are indeed available. Use a chain reference Bible to begin your search using the quotations of Jesus above. You will find more than you need to satisfy any doubts.

ClementofA said:
If such a monstrous, horrific thing were true, you'ld think Love Omnipotent Crucified would have warned us - clearly - not only once, but dozens of times. What else would be more important in all the Scriptures. Yet - nowhere - NOT ONCE - can such be found. Therefore, the teaching of endless tortures is clearly false.

The conclusion of the above quote is correct, but its supporting argument is not.

Warning has been given numerous times as I've stated earlier.

Adonai is indeed Omnipotent and is Love incarnate in Jesus, but has chosen to grant choice to gentile nations. If man refuses to love God and rejects God's most generous offer of immortal life, then God reserves the right to reject the gift of immortal life to them. After all, it is His to give or withhold as He chooses.

If man is given the right of choice, then man cannot justly deny God HIS right of choice.

I agree with you about the fallacy of eternal torture of sinners.
The Bible says man is mortal.
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;" - Genesis 6:3a
The Bible says ONLY GOD is immortal.
“who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light” - 1 Tim 6:16

The doctrine of hell or eternal torture is based upon the <false> pagan idea <derived from Plato> that the spirit of man consists of an indestructible consciousness that continues after death. The Bible never agrees with this. It is the nature of man to die; body, mind & spirit.

The glory of the gospel is that God offers immortal life to those who accept His gift during their physical existence.

It has been said that a merciful end to wasting disease is a quick death. A dear friend of mine suffered many months with an aggressive cancer. With no hope of rehabilitation, our congregation prayed for God's mercy to intervene and shorten his pain. One week later, Virgil went to be with Jesus. His passing was many weeks short of his doctor's estimate of life remaining.

Lingering pain is not considered humane treatment even for our animals. If humans know how to mercifully end suffering, how much more does God?

If humans find torture disgusting, why should a loving God feel differently?

If humans believe terrible disease can only be ended by death, then how much more would God shorten the disease of sin in the spirit of the wicked - of those who have rejected Him and would only suffer eternally in His presence?

God allows the wicked to die the Second Death, not because He is vindictive, but because He is merciful even to the wicked who've rejected Him.

ClementofA said:
"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

My research on the matter agrees with your points, which I have reproduced above.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

Der Alte · Aug 11, 2018

Choir Loft said:
begin

<CL>The doctrine of hell or eternal torture is based upon the <false> pagan idea <derived from Plato> that the spirit of man consists of an indestructible consciousness that continues after death. The Bible never agrees with this. It is the nature of man to die; body, mind & spirit.
The glory of the gospel is that God offers immortal life to those who accept His gift during their physical existence.<end>

end

Wrong! The Biblical doctrine of "eternal punishment" is from the Bible NOT pagan ideas and NOT Plato.
.....Long before Plato or the first Christian according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Jesus and His disciples were Jews and would have been exposed to the doctrine of eternal punishment.
….. I acknowledge there were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not negate anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught about e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them. Concerning “eternal punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs?

ClementofA · Aug 11, 2018

Every argument against universalism has been addressed on these forums & none have shown Scriptural Universalism is not true. For example:

Choir Loft said:
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 7:13

Jesus is using an allusion to make His point here. Every major city of Jesus' time had walls and gates. Gates were open during daylight hours and closed at night. In the evening, one small gate was left open. This narrow gate was only wide enough to allow one person at a time to enter.

The verse quoted by Christ above is most commonly used to illustrate the smaller number of saved persons and the large number of unsaved. It illustrates Jesus' point that most people would actively refuse to enter.

1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it (Mt.7:13-14)
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Note the word "many", not "few":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All. Those will He "justify" (Isa.53:11).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

sdowney717 · Aug 12, 2018

People who say there is a total annihilation in hell of death, are saying there is no resurrection of the unjust, of the wicked. Yet Jesus and Paul and Daniel all say that there is a resurrection of the wicked and unjust, meaning they are not annihilated in hell or as some others say are like totally dead as in cease to exist at all after physical death.
Resurrection that word had a definition and it means to be bodily raised from death.

Acts 24:14-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. 16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Daniel 12 New King James Version (NKJV)
Prophecy of the End Time
1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

“The sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works” (Rev. 20:13).

Choir Loft · Aug 15, 2018

The entire doctrine of everlasting torment rests upon three erroneous suppositions.

First, that God is a merciless hateful torturer who enjoys lashing the wicked for eternity.

Second, the false doctrine of eternal life of mankind.
ONLY GOD is immortal.
who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light” - 1 Tim 6:16

Which part of "who alone" is not understood here?

The error of hell is belief of the false Greek idea that some part of the human survives death and is itself indestructible and eternal. Greek pagan myth states that these eternal spirits must suffer eternal torture beyond the river Styx. This is not in the Bible. The Word of God states clearly that only God is immortal. Therefore there IS NO eternal torture chamber in the afterlife.

Please refer me to ANY Bible verse that says man is immortal. Apart from the Second Birth, which is derived immortality given by God, man is mortal.

The glory of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the hope of eternal life in Him. Jesus said He is life. (John 14:6) If a human rejects God's generous offer of eternal life all the days of his physical existence, then at the Final Judgment God rejects that man from His life (Matt 7:23). Where then does life come from to suffer hell? The answer is that there is none. The destiny of the wicked is destruction.

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;" - Genesis 6:3a

Which part of "they are mortal" is not understood here?

The context of the entire Bible is thus appropriate to deny the doctrine of hell. The wicked are rejected and are totally destroyed - totally annihilated. There are no second chances. The Second Death is as permanent as any physical grave.

Thirdly, the logic of hellish doctrine depends upon everlasting life. The Bible says eternal life is only given to the just. In order for hell to last indefinitely, the wicked must also possess eternal life, which the Bible denies they possess.

Finally, in order for God to dismiss the wicked to eternal punishment instead of permanent incineration God would have to be the most vindictive vile entity in the universe. Hell is not a place created by a loving God. The Bible says God destroys the wicked. He takes no pleasure in torture. Please show me passages in the Bible, chapter and verse, which says God is pleased by torture and pain.

The reader should note at this point that NO ONE has been able to disprove the Biblical assertion that man is mortal and that only God is immortal.

Logic must be abandoned in order to accept the false dogma of hell. If there is no immortal life in man, then everlasting punishment is impossible.

The great good news of the gospel is that God shares HIS eternal life with those who have surrendered to Him and received His son Jesus Christ into their lives. Jesus said that few people would do so. (*)

Which part of "only a few" is not understood here?

Must we constantly twist words and meanings to arrive at doctrine that pleases us or shall we accept what Jesus says and what the Bible corroborates entirely?

Those who insist many will be saved have denied the words of Christ and the context of the Bible. Apparently these experts have greater insight into the matter than the Son of God.

As for me and my house, we will follow Christ. Our hope is eternal life in Jesus.

Jesus saves those who trust Him. He doesn't save those who continually and constantly reject HIM. Their destiny is the Lake of Fire - the Second Death.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(*) But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 7:14

Der Alte · Aug 15, 2018

Choir Loft said:
The entire doctrine of everlasting torment rests upon three erroneous suppositions.
First, that God is a merciless hateful torturer who enjoys lashing the wicked for eternity.
Second, the false doctrine of eternal life of mankind.
ONLY GOD is immortal.
who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light” - 1 Tim 6:16
Which part of "who alone" is not understood here?
The error of hell is belief of the false Greek idea that some part of the human survives death and is itself indestructible and eternal. Greek pagan myth states that these eternal spirits must suffer eternal torture beyond the river Styx. This is not in the Bible. The Word of God states clearly that only God is immortal. Therefore there IS NO eternal torture chamber in the afterlife.
Please refer me to ANY Bible verse that says man is immortal. Apart from the Second Birth, which is derived immortality given by God, man is mortal.
The glory of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the hope of eternal life in Him. Jesus said He is life. (John 14:6) If a human rejects God's generous offer of eternal life all the days of his physical existence, then at the Final Judgment God rejects that man from His life (Matt 7:23). Where then does life come from to suffer hell? The answer is that there is none. The destiny of the wicked is destruction.
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;" - Genesis 6:3a
Which part of "they are mortal" is not understood here?
The context of the entire Bible is thus appropriate to deny the doctrine of hell. The wicked are rejected and are totally destroyed - totally annihilated. There are no second chances. The Second Death is as permanent as any physical grave.
Thirdly, the logic of hellish doctrine depends upon everlasting life. The Bible says eternal life is only given to the just. In order for hell to last indefinitely, the wicked must also possess eternal life, which the Bible denies they possess.
Finally, in order for God to dismiss the wicked to eternal punishment instead of permanent incineration God would have to be the most vindictive vile entity in the universe. Hell is not a place created by a loving God. The Bible says God destroys the wicked. He takes no pleasure in torture. Please show me passages in the Bible, chapter and verse, which says God is pleased by torture and pain.
The reader should note at this point that NO ONE has been able to disprove the Biblical assertion that man is mortal and that only God is immortal.
Logic must be abandoned in order to accept the false dogma of hell. If there is no immortal life in man, then everlasting punishment is impossible.
The great good news of the gospel is that God shares HIS eternal life with those who have surrendered to Him and received His son Jesus Christ into their lives. Jesus said that few people would do so. (*)
Which part of "only a few" is not understood here?
Must we constantly twist words and meanings to arrive at doctrine that pleases us or shall we accept what Jesus says and what the Bible corroborates entirely?
Those who insist many will be saved have denied the words of Christ and the context of the Bible. Apparently these experts have greater insight into the matter than the Son of God.
As for me and my house, we will follow Christ. Our hope is eternal life in Jesus.
Jesus saves those who trust Him. He doesn't save those who continually and constantly reject HIM. Their destiny is the Lake of Fire - the Second Death.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(*) But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 7:14

You are correct just you hollering from someplace. Your modus operandi quite evidently is to ignore anything and everything posted in response to your "hollering" and posting the same arguments over and over. Almost everything in this post I refuted in my [post #22] above.

Choir Loft · Aug 18, 2018

Der Alter said:
You are correct just you hollering from someplace. Your modus operandi quite evidently is to ignore anything and everything posted in response to your "hollering" and posting the same arguments over and over. Almost everything in this post I refuted in my [post #22] above.

I post over and over again because you aren't paying attention to my words. Neither do you address their importance to the discussion. You also post over and over - ignoring my primary assertion each time.

My assertion once again is that MAN IS MORTAL. ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL.

You have failed to disprove these simple statements. Instead your argument goes to hell, literally, each time. Your logic is circular and proves or disproves nothing.

The Biblical assertion that man is mortal is the basis for the statement of total destruction instead of torturous hell. The Bible teaches annihilation or Second Death, not torture.

God does not torture. God kills.

The context of Holy Writ says this over and over again. God kills and God destroys. When He does so He makes a complete end of it. The thing or person is completely deleted - only smoke and ashes remain. There is no undelete, no recovery and no second chance. (Hebrews 9:27)

You cannot make one single statement about divine torture without falsely assuming man has an immortal component.

To the best of my knowledge the idea of human immortality was initially chronicled by Herodotus who asserted some part of man survives death in a conscious immortal indestructible condition. The Greeks adopted Herodotus' idea of hell and the Roman Church popularized it. Protestants, not having any real tradition of their own, bought the idea from the Catholics - along with most everything else the Catholics believed except for apostolic succession (because Protestants wanted their own control mechanism).

The Bible does NOT make any assertion or implication of human immortality at all. The Bible says man dies and only God is immortal.

SHOW ME OTHERWISE.

You have not done so because you cannot provide Biblical documentation. You always ignore this challenge and go back to hell. One wonders at your fascination with torture and sad attempts to justify it.

The absolute generosity of God is to give his immortal life to those of mankind who accept His Son Jesus Christ. This is the glory of the gospel. Considering we all deserve destruction, God is more than generous.

The word 'generous' fails to comprehend the depth of God's gift.

So do some Christians, apparently.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Der Alte · Aug 18, 2018

Choir Loft said:
begin

I post over and over again because you aren't paying attention to my words. Neither do you address their importance to the discussion. You also post over and over - ignoring my primary assertion each time.
My assertion once again is that MAN IS MORTAL. ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL.
You have failed to disprove these simple statements. Instead your argument goes to hell, literally, each time.

end

I think I see the problem you are not even reading my posts, including the numerous scripture I have quoted. I have never mentioned "hell."

Your logic is circular and proves or disproves nothing.

Meaningless assertion you evidently do not know the meaning of "circular logic" or "reasoning."

The Biblical assertion that man is mortal is the basis for the statement of total destruction instead of torturous hell. The Bible teaches annihilation or Second Death, not torture.
God does not torture. God kills.

Irrelevant, God can make anyone He wants immortal. Please show me one verse which states that anyone/anything thrown into the lake of fire, which is called the second death, actually dies? That verse is not there.

The context of Holy Writ says this over and over again. God kills and God destroys. When He does so He makes a complete end of it. The thing or person is completely deleted - only smoke and ashes remain. There is no undelete, no recovery and no second chance. (Hebrews 9:27)
You cannot make one single statement about divine torture without falsely assuming man has an immortal component.
To the best of my knowledge the idea of human immortality was initially chronicled by Herodotus who asserted some part of man survives death in a conscious immortal indestructible condition. The Greeks adopted Herodotus' idea of hell and the Roman Church popularized it. Protestants, not having any real tradition of their own, bought the idea from the Catholics - along with most everything else the Catholics believed except for apostolic succession (because Protestants wanted their own control mechanism).
The Bible does NOT make any assertion or implication of human immortality at all. The Bible says man dies and only God is immortal.
SHOW ME OTHERWISE.
You have not done so because you cannot provide Biblical documentation. You always ignore this challenge and go back to hell. One wonders at your fascination with torture and sad attempts to justify it.
The absolute generosity of God is to give his immortal life to those of mankind who accept His Son Jesus Christ. This is the glory of the gospel. Considering we all deserve destruction, God is more than generous.
The word 'generous' fails to comprehend the depth of God's gift.
So do some Christians, apparently.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft

. . .

Still meaningless hollering while ignoring everything, repeating the same empty objections. Instead of ignoring why don't you try to refute anything in my previous post, posted here.
The Biblical doctrine of "eternal punishment" is from the Bible NOT pagan ideas and NOT Plato.
.....Long before Herodotus, Plato or the first Christian according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Jesus and His disciples were Jews and would have been exposed to the doctrine of eternal punishment.
….. I acknowledge there were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not negate anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught about e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them. Concerning “eternal punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs?

Der Alte · Aug 18, 2018

Choir Loft said:
The Biblical assertion that man is mortal is the basis for the statement of total destruction instead of torturous hell. The Bible teaches annihilation or Second Death, not torture.
God does not torture. God kills.

…..Is that so? In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

ClementofA · Aug 18, 2018

Der Alter said:
.....Long before Herodotus, Plato or the first Christian according to the Jewish Encyclopedia,

Der Alter said:
You keep waffling on many things here DA. Everyone reading can see it.
If scripture is the word of God and those scriptures tell us Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world who else but God is telling you Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world? Thus every verse I quoted is a quote from God.
So again I will ask you what greater testimony do you need before you will believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world? <end>
No waffles I prefer pancakes. Do you believe that,

“the whole world is under the control of the evil one” 1 John 5:19
“Satan, who leads the whole world astray” Revelation 12:9
“The whole world … followed the beast” Revelation 13:3
“Diana …, whom all Asia and the world worships.” Acts of the apostles 19:27
Satan is “the god of this world.” 2 Corinthians 4:4

Are you now a Calvinist & you believe Jesus being the Savior of the world means only the lucky ones God determined to be the elect? Does Jn.1:29 mean by "world" only some? Do you believe in the limited atonement theory?

Der Alter said:
What we still do not have is any Bible writer directly quoting God or Jesus saying that all mankind good and bad, will be saved.

God or Jesus? God is Jesus. And His inspired Scriptures have made it clear all will be saved (Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).

Der Alter said:
But here is what Jesus Himself says,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these [on the left] shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

Compare:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Clearly the Greek/Hebrew words mistranslated "everlasting", "eternal" & "forever" in pro endless hell biased translations do not always mean what they seem to mean, e.g.:

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo.21:6)

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/l
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...in-duration-with-aionion-in-mt-25-46.8069208/

Der Alter said:
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50

Lame. Nothing there says anyone will suffer endless tortures. Jesus could have easily expressed such a thought, if that was His belief. Since He never does, He doesn't believe such a thing. See also:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sition-to-endless-hell.8042016/#post-72141156

Der Alter said:
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna

Der Alter said:
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

"never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

Der Alter said:
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.

Der Alter said:
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

None of those verses refer to a "fate worse than...nonexistence". And a "fate worse than death" need not be endless tortures & is nowhere near being similar to endless tortures. Compare:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Der Alter said:
.....Unlike the UR crowd I consider Jesus to be the standard not Paul or John or other NT writers. I interpret the writings of Paul et al. to agree with what Jesus said. On the other hand UR-ites reinterpret the words of Jesus so that they do not mean what they literally say in order to make them agree with the UR interpretation of Paul et al.

All Scripture is inspired of God. Paul is in harmony with what the 4 Gospels & Jesus say about the Lord being the Savior of the world, of all mankind. For Paul's inspired words of truth are from the risen Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

Choir Loft · Aug 19, 2018

Post #28 mistakenly asserts I do not read the circular logic in his posts. Yet here is another hula hoop attempt to circumvent my challenge........

"The Biblical doctrine of "eternal punishment" is from the Bible NOT pagan ideas and NOT Plato." - post #28

Once again, I assert the Bible says MAN IS MORTAL and ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL.

Answer the challenge directly. You do not because you can not.

You cannot use hell to prove the doctrine of hell. <-- this is circular logic and you do it all the time.....

You cannot use scripture to justify hell either. Why?

Because man is mortal there is no eternal punishment.
There is only physical and spiritual death.

It's not rocket science, brother. It's simple logic upheld by Biblical reference. We all know physical death is a certainty, or at least most of us do. The Bible says the Second Death is the termination/destruction of the human spirit.

DEATH TO SINNERS !!!! (Romans 6:23)

To date, there has been no effective or convincing argument that man is anything other than mortal - as per the Bible.

My challenge once again is:

prove the Bible WRONG when it says man is mortal and only God is immortal.

Born once, die twice. Born twice, die once.

The above phrases don't appear in the Bible, but they are truthful extensions of its context. PROVE THIS WRONG by using scripture to prove man is other than mortal.

You prove your inability to successfully answer the challenge when you continually assert the existence of some sort of divine dungeon.

God does not torture. God kills.

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed" - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 25:41a

The Bible says Jesus is the source of life.
Ejection from the presence of God means the loss of life - ergo death.

How simple does it have to get?

Have you watched a wicked person die? They have no confidence in eternal life at all. Sometimes there is abject fear in their eyes and sometimes they just don't want to talk about an end to their existence.

It ends though. They are certain of that and nobody needs to quote scripture to prove it to them.

MAN IS MORTAL.

Dust we are and unto dust shall we return.

ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL.

The humanistic attitude that man is some sort of little angel is laughable if not gross heresy in observable truth as well as in spirit.

Death is a complete end. Sometimes (not always, but sometimes) the wicked understand this when they feel Abaddon(*) close to them. I met a man once who actually saw this creature. He survived the experience by three months.

For the sinner death is the total end of everything. Since they rejected God's generous offer of life all the days they walked the earth, the judge of all mankind will not force immortality in any form upon them. (John 3:19)

God therefore justly and mercifully gives them what they want - the Second Death.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Abaddon is the Hebrew name of the angel of death. It is also called Apollyon in the Greek text of Revelation. (Revelation 9:11) Apollyon/Abaddon is also the king of locusts - which critter is famous for devouring living matter. Devour also means total consumption....like a fire consumes.....like worms totally consume a dead body.

Is it not also a strange thing that the chapter and verse reference for Abaddon is 911?

Death is a creepy thing and cannot be made softer by telling lies to people who want to believe in an everlasting existence despite their sins. Death for some is a joke. They think they'll party with their friends in hell. The false doctrine of hell convinces them they can delay making peace with God. They believe they'll have a second chance to 'make it up to God' there. (Hebrews 9:27)

I've been out witnessing the gospel to the unsaved and I've heard these excuses many times. Have you not heard this dark humor all your life? Hell is a joke to them. Do you not understand how the doctrine of hell corrupts the gospel warning in their hearing? Even greeting cards and newspaper cartoons express this disdain for divine judgment.

Nothing about total annihilation is funny. It's not supposed to be funny. Death isn't funny. Even you must agree with that. Think about it. Please.

BNR32FAN · Aug 19, 2018

nonaeroterraqueous said:
Not quite. Most seem to take that one passage (three words) that God is love, and make it into a universal truth. A significant minority of us don't think that God can be boiled down to love syrup, like some manner of maple sap, as though he were nothing more. The Calvinistic among us don't even think he loves everyone. Anyone who reads the Old Testament with the love-muffin mindset is going to be tempted to think that it describes an entirely different god.

Hell is death. Adam and Eve were told that they would die on the day that they ate that fruit, and they were cast from paradise to here. That was their death. The next death is Hell. You might think of it as eternal torture, but people in Heaven might think the same of where we are.

It follows that if there's a positive infinite Heaven, and there's this finite world we know, then there's probably a negatively infinite Hell. It's that place where their worm dies not, and the flames are never quenched. The worms are not being burned forever on the sinner's behalf, so let's not kid ourselves. Hell is not a place where the flames never die for no reason, with nothing in it.

Why would a loving God torture people forever? You might conclude that he won't really torture people forever, but I go the other way and doubt your characterization of God. It matters, because you're going to have to face him some day, and we need you not to reject him if we expect him not to reject you.

How is the OT evidence that God is not love?

Der Alte · Aug 19, 2018

Choir Loft said:
Post #28 mistakenly asserts I do not read the circular logic in his posts. Yet here is another hula hoop attempt to circumvent my challenge........
"The Biblical doctrine of "eternal punishment" is from the Bible NOT pagan ideas and NOT Plato." - post #28
Once again, I assert the Bible says MAN IS MORTAL and ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL.
Answer the challenge directly. You do not because you can not.
You cannot use hell to prove the doctrine of hell. <-- this is circular logic and you do it all the time.....
You cannot use scripture to justify hell either. Why?
Because man is mortal there is no eternal punishment.
There is only physical and spiritual death.
It's not rocket science, brother. It's simple logic upheld by Biblical reference. We all know physical death is a certainty, or at least most of us do. The Bible says the Second Death is the termination/destruction of the human spirit.
DEATH TO SINNERS !!!! (Romans 6:23)
To date, there has been no effective or convincing argument that man is anything other than mortal - as per the Bible.
My challenge once again is:
prove the Bible WRONG when it says man is mortal and only God is immortal.
Born once, die twice. Born twice, die once.
The above phrases don't appear in the Bible, but they are truthful extensions of its context. PROVE THIS WRONG by using scripture to prove man is other than mortal.
You prove your inability to successfully answer the challenge when you continually assert the existence of some sort of divine dungeon.

God does not torture. God kills.

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed" - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 25:41a

The Bible says Jesus is the source of life.
Ejection from the presence of God means the loss of life - ergo death.

How simple does it have to get?

Have you watched a wicked person die? They have no confidence in eternal life at all. Sometimes there is abject fear in their eyes and sometimes they just don't want to talk about an end to their existence.

It ends though. They are certain of that and nobody needs to quote scripture to prove it to them.

MAN IS MORTAL.

Dust we are and unto dust shall we return.

ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL.

The humanistic attitude that man is some sort of little angel is laughable if not gross heresy in observable truth as well as in spirit.

Death is a complete end. Sometimes (not always, but sometimes) the wicked understand this when they feel Abaddon(*) close to them. I met a man once who actually saw this creature. He survived the experience by three months.

For the sinner death is the total end of everything. Since they rejected God's generous offer of life all the days they walked the earth, the judge of all mankind will not force immortality in any form upon them. (John 3:19)

God therefore justly and mercifully gives them what they want - the Second Death.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Abaddon is the Hebrew name of the angel of death. It is also called Apollyon in the Greek text of Revelation. (Revelation 9:11) Apollyon/Abaddon is also the king of locusts - which critter is famous for devouring living matter. Devour also means total consumption....like a fire consumes.....like worms totally consume a dead body.

Is it not also a strange thing that the chapter and verse reference for Abaddon is 911?

Death is a creepy thing and cannot be made softer by telling lies to people who want to believe in an everlasting existence despite their sins. Death for some is a joke. They think they'll party with their friends in hell. The false doctrine of hell convinces them they can delay making peace with God. They believe they'll have a second chance to 'make it up to God' there. (Hebrews 9:27)

I've been out witnessing the gospel to the unsaved and I've heard these excuses many times. Have you not heard this dark humor all your life? Hell is a joke to them. Do you not understand how the doctrine of hell corrupts the gospel warning in their hearing? Even greeting cards and newspaper cartoons express this disdain for divine judgment.

Nothing about total annihilation is funny. It's not supposed to be funny. Death isn't funny. Even you must agree with that. Think about it. Please.

If you wish to address me quote my posts and address specifics about my posts, as I have done, that you have a problem with. Don't just throw a bunch of hollering your opinion at the thread and demanding of me what you will not or cannot do yourself. I think I quoted three passages of scripture which show the unrighteous dead in sheol and hades speaking, moving, acting, having emotions, feeling pain etc.
.....And once again you do not know the meaning of circular reasoning because I have not used a circular argument for anything. I did not try to use hell to prove hell. I used scripture which you ignored because it does not fit your agenda.

Choir Loft · Aug 20, 2018

sdowney717 said:
People who say there is a total annihilation in hell of death, are saying there is no resurrection of the unjust, of the wicked. Yet Jesus and Paul and Daniel all say that there is a resurrection of the wicked and unjust, meaning they are not annihilated in hell or as some others say are like totally dead as in cease to exist at all after physical death.
Resurrection that word had a definition and it means to be bodily raised from death.

* * * *

“The sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works” (Rev. 20:13).

People say......?

What people?

Me?

Since you quoted me in your post I assume you are accusing me. Your accusation is false. What does the 10 commandments say about falsely accusing someone? It says it's a sin.

Please read the quote above. Carefully. Here is an excellent example of deliberate obfuscation and misrepresentation to support a false accusation.

I never denied the resurrection of the wicked.

If I did why wasn't it quoted here?

It wasn't quoted because I never wrote it and because sdowney wishes to legitimize a false premise - immortality of the wicked. The wicked are never given immortality. I didn't write it and the Bible doesn't say it.

I DID WRITE THAT GOD GRANTS IMMORTALITY TO THE JUST - THE SAVED IN CHRIST.

Show me one place in the Bible where the wicked are granted immortal life. You cannot because it isn't there.

Consider Jairus' daughter. (Mark 5:21-43)
Consider Lazarus. (John 11:38-44)
Consider the widow's son. (Luke 7:11-17)

All these people were raised from the dead by Jesus as chronicled in the gospel accounts. The issue at that time wasn't judgment, but that Jesus had the power to grant life. These acts legitimized Christ as the Son of God before the nation. It also demonstrated Jesus' love for them in granting them the privilege of participating in the gospel message.

Consider also that all of these people eventually suffered a natural permanent death.

The temporary raising described in the gospels was NOT a resurrection of the just unto immortality - otherwise they'd still be alive for an interview today. It wasn't a resurrection of condemnation either. None of them were found to be toasty with hellish burns thereafter. Find one passage in the Bible that says they survived as immortals. You can't because they didn't.

In no sense does the Bible suggest or imply the wicked are raised for judgment and granted immortal life so as to suffer everlasting torture. That's a stretch too far for scripture to cover. The wicked are raised temporarily for judgment and then dispatched to destruction - beyond the presence of God, beyond life, unto the Second Death.

What does 'Second Death' mean except the end of whatever remains of earthly man? There is no everlasting memory of the wicked. No record of their deeds after Final Judgment. No supposition whatsoever of their continuing existence at all. God says He's done with them, finished. He evicts them from all benefit of life and knowledge of anything.

The Bible says God rejects the wicked from His presence.

Does God give them a going-away present? No. The wicked are extinguished - permanently.

[The last time I read the dictionary it said death was the cessation of all life functions. I visited a local cemetery and sure enough, everybody there was dead. What a shocking revelation !!!!!]

The Bible NEVER says man is anything but mortal. The three individuals mentioned in the gospel references above all died. That's called mortality. Mortal people die. Immortal ones don't.

It's not that difficult a concept to grasp.

The alternative is to accept the pagan notion that God is a sadistic brute much like Nazi concentration camp guards. Does God set traps for man to fall or is that the job of the Other Guy? Does He love to falsely accuse man....like the Other Guy.....as well as certain persons on this thread?

Or is God merciful even to sinners at the Final Judgment and kill rather than torture?

The Bible says only God is immortal and man is mortal.

The implications of this fact are undeniable. Sinners must be told the terrible truth and persuaded to reconsider their actions. Absolute death is their destiny and even God doesn't wish that on anyone. He died to prove it and to make an escape possible for all of us WHO ARE MORTAL.

The glory of the gospel is 'derived immortality' - the gift of eternal life given ONLY to those who accept Jesus Christ as lord of their lives.

....and few there are who accept this gift.....

Go out in the streets, in the real world, and talk to people.
You will discover most of them reject the offer of salvation.
Many laugh at it.
Scoffers multiply like rabbits in heat these days.
If you go out into the world you will learn the truth of the Bible and not twist it to support humanistic fantasies to the contrary.

Not many will enter the Kingdom of God. Most will not.

There are 2.3 billion Christians in the world today out of a total global population of 7.6 billion souls.

Do the math.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Choir Loft · Aug 20, 2018

CORRECTION:

I misquoted a statement of historic importance in an earlier post.

In that post I stated the Greek historian Herodotus introduced the pagan myth of an eternal afterlife consisting of everlasting torture. It had various names depending upon the culture that adopted the idea. The modern myth is called hell.

But Herodotus didn't introduce the idea. He only chronicled it.

It's been pointed out to me (and verified) that Herodotus was only recording the fact that it was the Egyptians who established notions of the afterlife which carried forward in time and became perverted into the modern idea of hell.

Someone has suggested that the church didn't adopt the idea from the Greeks. Why not, the Romans did? In fact, most of modern western civilization stands on Greek foundations. We owe much to the ancient Greeks - mathematics, philosophy of government, the rule of law, the concept of honor and duty, and so on.

It is a sad fact that the church adopted a lot of false ideas from the pagans, not just hell. The first official act of the church was during the council of Nicea 325 AD. Called to attendance by Emperor Constantine, who paid travel expenses and who paid for living accommodations out of the Empires' treasury for all the bishops and representative of the Christian world, the conference was heavily influenced by Constantine's pagan education. According to records of the conference, Constantine attended most of the meetings. Because he paid for the conference Constantine felt he had a right to influence decisions about theological matters.

Chief among these matters of discussion was the composition of Christ. Was He God or was He man or was He a bit of both? Delegates became inflamed with each others' arguments and in one instance a bishop from Lycia by the name of Nicholas punched another delegate in the face with his fist. Yup. He decked the guy. Apparently arguments among Christians are not a new thing even in the age of the internet.

By the way, Nicholas of Lycia is the same fellow that tradition now calls Santa Claus.

Don't get the big boy mad at you. You may get more than coal in your stocking. You may get a black eye.

The church has a long history of adopting pagan myths into its culture - all the way from hell to commercialized Christmas. (Was Jesus really born on December 25th? Maybe. Maybe not. Who cares when it makes for a long holiday season coupled with pagan New Year's Eve celebrations.)

Oh yea. The church has been most definitely influenced by pagan myths and has adopted many as gospel.....diluting the truth of the Word of God. Which kingdom do you suppose benefits from this confusion - heaven or that of the Opposer?

We must all be very careful these days when separating Biblical truth from pagan tradition. Sometimes it is uncomfortable to do so, but in the end the truth will set us free.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Der Alte · Aug 20, 2018

Choir Loft said:
....(*) Abaddon is the Hebrew name of the angel of death. It is also called Apollyon in the Greek text of Revelation. (Revelation 9:11) Apollyon/Abaddon is also the king of locusts - which critter is famous for devouring living matter. Devour also means total consumption....like a fire consumes.....like worms totally consume a dead body....

Here are the two spellings of abbadon in Brown, Driver, Briggs one of, if not, the most highly accredited Hebrew lexicons available. The symbol "†" indicates "all passages cited." There is nothing about "locusts" in either listing. Perhaps you are relying on internet "theology" instead of accredited, documented scholarship.

†אַבְדָ֑ן S12 TWOT2c GK12, & אָבְדַן (cstr.) n.[m.] destruction (Syriac ܐܰܒܕܳܢܳܐ (ʾbdono)) Est 9:5 (מַכַּת־חֶרֶב וְהֶרֶג וְא׳), 8:6; (on form v. BeRy; Ol 215 b.1 Ba 49, 487).
†אֲבַדּוֹן S11 TWOT2d GK10, 11 n.f.? Pr 27:20 abstr. nearly = n.pr. (place of) Destruction, Ruin, ʾAbaddôn
Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. (1977). Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (p. 2). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

Der Alte · Aug 20, 2018

Choir Loft said:
begin

...It is a sad fact that the church adopted a lot of false ideas from the pagans, not just hell. The first official act of the church was during the council of Nicea 325 AD. Called to attendance by Emperor Constantine, who paid travel expenses and who paid for living accommodations out of the Empires' treasury for all the bishops and representative of the Christian world, the conference was heavily influenced by Constantine's pagan education. According to records of the conference, Constantine attended most of the meetings. Because he paid for the conference Constantine felt he had a right to influence decisions about theological matters.....
Chief among these matters of discussion was the composition of Christ. Was He God or was He man or was He a bit of both? Delegates became inflamed with each others' arguments and in one instance a bishop from Lycia by the name of Nicholas punched another delegate in the face with his fist. Yup. He decked the guy. Apparently arguments among Christians are not a new thing even in the age of the internet.[quote].....[/QUOTE]
The sad truth is that this is all internet rubbish. There is no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any of the comments I highlighted in red. Chief among these matters of discussion was the Arian heresy not the composition of Christ. Contrary to the claim above the first official act of the church is recorded in Acts 15, where the leaders of the church assembled in Jerusalem and decided on the requirements for gentile Christians.
.....From the time of the apostles until Constantine became emperor, early 300s, the church was horrendously persecuted, their property taken, they were tortured, thrown into arenas with wild animals and killed because they would not renounce Christ. Why would a majority of bishops at Nicaea, most of whom carried the scars of persecution in their bodies, cave in and let anything pagan infiltrate the church either willfully or by force just because an emperor asked them nicely?
.....Of the more than 300 bishops at Nicaea only five refused to sign, objecting to the term homoousios, “of the same substance.” They were Eusebius bishop of Nicomedia, Theognis of Nice, Maris of Chalcedon, Theonas of Marmarica, and Secundus of Ptolemaïs. “ and were removed from their bishopricks and exiled. I would be glad to review any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to the contrary.
.....I mean something written at or near the times in question, by a participant or direct observer. Quotes from random websites do not constitute such evidence. Two historians alive at the time were Eusebius and Lactantius.

Der Alte · Aug 20, 2018

Choir Loft said:
Post #28 mistakenly asserts I do not read the circular logic in his posts. Yet here is another hula hoop attempt to circumvent my challenge...........

Here is the definition of circular reasoning.

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.

You have made the accusation that I use circular reasoning. Please quote the exact statement you claim is circular reasoning and show how it is circular reasoning by the definition above or keep quiet. I am confident you cannot do so therefore I deserve an apology.

Choir Loft · Aug 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
Here is the definition of circular reasoning.

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.
You have made the accusation that I use circular reasoning. Please quote the exact statement you claim is circular reasoning and show how it is circular reasoning by the definition above or keep quiet. I am confident you cannot do so therefore I deserve an apology.

I'm not going to help you justify hell. I'm not going to play that game.

I should think you'd have figured that out by now.

Oh well......let's take another turn at this shall we?

Circular reasoning is an argument that commits the logical fallacy of assuming what it is attempting to prove.

It attempts to prove itself by referring to itself. You continually do that. Pick any of your own posts on the subject of hell. You refuse the evidence of your own words because you are more interested in obfuscating the subject at hand and in making feeble attempts to misdirect the dialogue. What is the subject at hand? Have we forgotten?

AGAIN.....

My challenge is to disprove the Biblical assertion;
1. man is mortal (Genesis 6:3) and
2. only God is immortal. (1 Timothy 6:16)

All dogmatic arguments attempting to prove hell must be based upon immortality of man which is unBiblical.

The Bible says man is mortal, therefore man's destiny is total complete destruction - oblivion - at time of death;

- unless -

God grants part of His own immortality to man.

This is called derived immortality and it doesn't happen unless one accepts Christ as Lord and savior at which point the Second Birth, spiritual regeneration, is granted. This is the whole point of the gospel message and the blessed hope of man.

If man is already immortal, then the Second Birth would not be necessary and Christ would have died on the cross for nothing. Instead the Bible says He gave His life a ransom for many. (Matthew 20:28) Ransom from what? The Second Death.

I am really not interested in your caliginous avoidance of the subject at hand - WHICH IS - the mortality of man. The dogma of hell has no foundation in logic when the Biblical context of human mortality is applied. Therefore eternal torture is neither possible, sustainable, relevant nor the revealed will of God.

GOD DOES NOT TORTURE. GOD KILLS.

I will not entertain any apologies until and unless the subject at had is addressed in a factual logical Biblically accurate exegesis. Dogmatic fanatical defense of hell only proves my challenge stands as stated and cannot be disproved.

Therefore the doctrine of hell is false.

The Biblical standard of Final Judgment stands as stated. At time of death the wicked are totally utterly finally and completely destroyed - annihilated.

Therefore it is of utmost importance that the message of God's gracious gift of forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ be taken seriously. The alternative is the Second Death.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Choir Loft · Aug 22, 2018

"God can make anyone He wants immortal."
- scoffer's Bible

What God CAN do and what God WILL do are two different things.

THE BIBLE is full of statements and testimony of what God WILL DO.

THE WORD OF GOD does not entertain hypothetical situations about what divine providence might do under imaginary circumstances.

Such cheap logic is usually found in comic books, supermarket tabloids and prepubescent Hollywood adventure films. I suspect that is where many people get the substance of their religious philosophy.

Hypotheticals do not stand under serious Biblical scrutiny.....but scoffers love to quote them anyway.

What God WILL DO is stated clearly and openly in the Word of God. It says what it means and it means what it says.

MAN IS MORTAL.

Man will die - physically, mentally and spiritually. There will be absolutely nothing left except perhaps a small wisp of smoke or a flake of ash.

End of story

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS
God has provided a way of escape from the Second Death in the person of Jesus Christ. Read the gospel of John.

CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY

Conditional Immortality

Agree

Disagree

Plausible

Need more information

Never heard of Annihilationism

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