Can the law or religion save you?

Soyeong

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Will obeying the law whether it is the Ten Commandments or Sharia save you? Is the law more important than people or Jesus?

Our salvation is from sin and sin defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4). In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so participating in this training is not about trying to add our own efforts to salvation, but rather being trained by grace to live in obedience to God is what being saved from living in disobedience to God looks like. Furthermore, verse 14 says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in Christ, then that should lead us to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law (Acts 21:20). The Law is God's instructions for how to love Him and our neighbor, so it would be a mistake to say that the law is more important that people or Jesus when the Law is primarily about the importance of people and Jesus.
 
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Soyeong

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The Law given by Moses, but grace and TRUTH came through Jesus Christ.
The works of the law saves no one, it was a ministry of condemnation even though glorious and it has passed away. It is the New Covenant in his blood, by faith in his blood, that saves you. The just have always lived by faith even under the Old Covenant law. By the law is the knowledge of sin and no flesh will be justified in His sight by performing deeds of the law.

Romans 3:19-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become [a]guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [c]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [d]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law. In 1 John 1:16-17, it says that grace upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Law. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of that was of works with a law that was of faith, so works of the law are of works, whereas he said in verse 31 that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's Law, but rather our faith upholds it, so God's Law is of faith. Likewise, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith was on of the weightier matters of the Law, so again it is of faith, and obedience to God's instructions is about having faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live (Romans 2:13). In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so we are not saved by our obedience to God's Law, but rather the same grace and faith by which we are justified also requires our obedience.
 
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Soyeong

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The law was given so we could realized we were sinners in need of a Savior. Only Jesus Christ can save us.

There are many verses that describe the Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others, so the Law was primarily given to teach us how to express God's character traits such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. Pointing out our sins has significance only insofar as it lead us to repent and back to obedience by faith. Stopping at pointing out our need for a savior falls far short of what God has in plan for us. God is restoring us to His image and making us to be like Him. Jesus expressed the character traits of the Father through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, and our sanctification is about being made to be like him, to have and to express the same character traits.
 
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Soyeong

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Have you kept it perfectly?

The Law itself came with instructions for what do when the people sinned, so obedience to God has never been about the need for perfect obedience, but about expressing our faith and our love for Him. If we needed perfect obedience, then there would be no point in repentance because it would already be too late for that, yet the consistent message of the prophets up to and including Jesus is to repent from our sins and turn back to obedience to the Law, so the need to continue to practice repentance has always been key. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, being under a blessing or a curse it is about choosing a mountain and climbing it, about following God or chasing after other gods, not about whether or not we have perfect obedience.
 
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Soyeong

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I believe this leaves out every man as no one except Christ has kept the law. So trying does not even count. We all fail at this miserably.
Jesus kept the law for us. We cannot (or will not)keep the law. This is why Jesus died.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that His Law was not too difficult for us to obey, and I believe Him, do you?

Jesus summarized the Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so saying that he kept the Law for us is like saying that he loved God and his neighbor so that we don't have to, but rather he did so in part so that we would have an example to follow, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:3-6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1). In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus died to free us from having to obey the Law, but rather it says that he gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works. God's Law is His instructions for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17, so if you believe in Christ, then that should cause you to want to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law (Acts 21:20).
 
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Soyeong

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When Paul condemned the idea of being justified by the Law, he was referring to the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole.

He was referring to those who were trying to become justified by obeying works of the law, not the Mosaic Law.

He condemned things like circumcision (Which was a part of the Old Law). For Paul said,

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

Romans 3:2a Much in every way!

I'm not sure how you can use Romans 3:1-2 to show that Paul condemned circumcision. However, Paul said that circumcision has no value, what matters of obeying God's commandments (1 Corinthian 7:19), so the issue is that the value of circumcision is entirely derived from whether someone obeys God's Law (Romans 2:25). The way to tell that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:10-11:1).

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His Law, and even Jesus began his ministry with that message, so there isn't much sense in interpreting Galatians 5:2-4 as Paul warning people about the dangers of being cut off from Christ if we seek to repent and follow Christ.

In other words, Paul was trying to refute "Circumcision Salvation" and or "Works Alone Salvationism" (that did not include God's grace) (See Ephesians 2:8-9).

Those verses are an incomplete thought without verse 10, where we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works.

The condemning of trying to be saved by "circumcision" and or "the Law of Moses" is evident even at the Jerusalem Counsel.

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no suchcommandment" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

The problem in Acts 15:1 was that God never commanded all Gentiles to become circumcised and while He did command all Jews to become circumcised, not even Jews were required to do so in order to become saved, so circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that God never commanded, which actually was contrary to the purposes of God. A ruling against Gentiles obeying what God never commanded shouldn't be taken as ruling against Gentiles obeying what God has commanded. However, the Jerusalem Council did not have more authority than God, so they had no authority to countermand Him or to tell anyone not to obey any of His commands, nor did they try to do so, nor should we follow them instead of God even if they had tried to do so.

However, Paul was not against keeping the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) as a part of the salvation process. For Paul said,

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

The Bible does not make any sort of distinction between moral and non-moral laws, but rather disobedience to God was always immoral and sinful. Non-moral laws would mean that there are some instances where it is moral to disobey God's commands, but there are no examples of this in the Bible.

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have a mind set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's Law.
 
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Soyeong

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So there's lots of people here who don't eat bacon?

I wouldn't say a lot of people, but there are a number of us who do obey God's His command to refrain from eating unclean animals in accordance with what Jesus taught by word and by example.
 
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HatGuy

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I wouldn't say a lot of people, but there are a number of us who do obey God's His command to refrain from eating unclean animals in accordance with what Jesus taught by word and by example.
We're not going to come to an agreement here.
 
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betterorworse

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Will obeying the law whether it is the Ten Commandments or Sharia save you? Is the law more important than people or Jesus?

Essentially Jesus is Gods word. Jesus is of the law, Love.


The ten commandments aren't bad. The law is only against bad people.
 
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EmSw

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What does your canon look like? I ask because your quote above seems to reject apostolic teachings.

What more does one need but the Words of Life? Are these not enough for you?

Yes Jesus did say He shed His very own blood for our sins.

Luke 22: NASB

19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.21“But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table. 22“For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!” 23And they began to discuss among themselves which one of them it might be who was going to do this thing.

Matthew 26: NASB

26While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. 29“But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

This is not speaking of being a human sacrifice. His body was represented by the bread, which the disciples ate; His blood by the cup which they drank. At the time the disciples partook of His body and blood, nothing of any kind of sacrifice was performed.
 
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EmSw

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Context is important. The man said he kept all the commandments and yet Jesus said he still lacked something.

So it would help if we had your exegesis of the passage to understand what you are trying to teach here.

As your comments stand you are using the words of Christ like a daily devotional.

We are not told to exegete anything; we are told to believe and do them.

I am using His words as a source of Life.
 
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EmSw

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No, but I do know that when God told Israel to not eat shellfish he was not talking to me. Or do you think He is?

What did Jesus say about shellfish?

Now, God told Israel to love Him with their whole heart, soul, and mind. Is that talking to you?

I agree. I was going to paste it here but perhaps it's better if you, @EmSw go to the passage you are quoting and then let us all know if you've done and are doing everything Jesus said that man must do in that passage.

Everyone wants to be a judge. Did you do this? Have you done that? I want to see if you have kept this and that. The Pharisees questioned Jesus about what He did.

It is your responsibility to look after yourself and whether you do what He says. God will take care of what others are doing. Look not at the hill others are treading, keep your eye on the mountain you are climbing.

Everyone must ask themselves, are Jesus' words the source of Life or not? Should I believe them and keep them, or can I get by another way? Do I have to believe everything Jesus said, or can I pick and choose what to believe?

Choose wisely.
 
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HatGuy

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What did Jesus say about shellfish?

Now, God told Israel to love Him with their whole heart, soul, and mind. Is that talking to you?
I get the distinct impression that you don't know what "the Law" means, and perhaps don't believe in any other scripture except the books Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Everyone wants to be a judge. Did you do this? Have you done that? I want to see if you have kept this and that. The Pharisees questioned Jesus about what He did.

It is your responsibility to look after yourself and whether you do what He says. God will take care of what others are doing. Look not at the hill others are treading, keep your eye on the mountain you are climbing.

Everyone must ask themselves, are Jesus' words the source of Life or not? Should I believe them and keep them, or can I get by another way? Do I have to believe everything Jesus said, or can I pick and choose what to believe?

Choose wisely.

Matthew 19
"16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions."

Given your reasoning about how to read this scripture, I gather you've sold all your stuff and given everything you have to the poor?
 
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EmSw

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I get the distinct impression that you don't know what "the Law" means, and perhaps don't believe in any other scripture except the books Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Am I condemned for believing the Words of Jesus? Who will stone me for believing and doing what Jesus said?

Matthew 19
"16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions."

Given your reasoning about how to read this scripture, I gather you've sold all your stuff and given everything you have to the poor?

If you knew the inner, spiritual meaning of His words, you wouldn't be asking this. No one can be perfect by giving away his worldly things. If having no possessions was an indication of salvation, hardly anyone would enter the kingdom. It is not written in the law for man to give away what he possesses to the poor.

To enter life, Jesus said to keep the commandments, not give everything away to the poor. To be perfect, one must sell what he possesses and give to the poor. I don't have time to give more, but I will later.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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He was referring to those who were trying to become justified by obeying works of the law, not the Mosaic Law.



Romans 3:2a Much in every way!

I'm not sure how you can use Romans 3:1-2 to show that Paul condemned circumcision. However, Paul said that circumcision has no value, what matters of obeying God's commandments (1 Corinthian 7:19), so the issue is that the value of circumcision is entirely derived from whether someone obeys God's Law (Romans 2:25). The way to tell that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:10-11:1).



All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His Law, and even Jesus began his ministry with that message, so there isn't much sense in interpreting Galatians 5:2-4 as Paul warning people about the dangers of being cut off from Christ if we seek to repent and follow Christ.



Those verses are an incomplete thought without verse 10, where we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works.



The problem in Acts 15:1 was that God never commanded all Gentiles to become circumcised and while He did command all Jews to become circumcised, not even Jews were required to do so in order to become saved, so circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that God never commanded, which actually was contrary to the purposes of God. A ruling against Gentiles obeying what God never commanded shouldn't be taken as ruling against Gentiles obeying what God has commanded. However, the Jerusalem Council did not have more authority than God, so they had no authority to countermand Him or to tell anyone not to obey any of His commands, nor did they try to do so, nor should we follow them instead of God even if they had tried to do so.



The Bible does not make any sort of distinction between moral and non-moral laws, but rather disobedience to God was always immoral and sinful. Non-moral laws would mean that there are some instances where it is moral to disobey God's commands, but there are no examples of this in the Bible.



In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have a mind set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's Law.

I am not really interested in debating the Law, my friend.

May God bless you today.
 
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redleghunter

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This is not speaking of being a human sacrifice. His body was represented by the bread, which the disciples ate; His blood by the cup which they drank. At the time the disciples partook of His body and blood, nothing of any kind of sacrifice was performed.
Actually if you follow the “rest of the story” Christ was speaking of his crucifixion and death. Which He said was for the remission of sins. Yes Jesus Christ was the substitute for us and atonement.
 
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redleghunter

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We are not told to exegete anything; we are told to believe and do them.

I am using His words as a source of Life.
Really. Then do what Jesus said to do in that passage. Sell all your possessions and go follow Him.
 
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Am I condemned for believing the Words of Jesus? Who will stone me for believing and doing what Jesus said?
Did the apostles not teach what Jesus taught?

If you knew the inner, spiritual meaning of His words, you wouldn't be asking this. No one can be perfect by giving away his worldly things. If having no possessions was an indication of salvation, hardly anyone would enter the kingdom. It is not written in the law for man to give away what he possesses to the poor.

To enter life, Jesus said to keep the commandments, not give everything away to the poor. To be perfect, one must sell what he possesses and give to the poor. I don't have time to give more, but I will later.

The two sentences in bold above are contradicting each other.
 
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