Two Possibilities in Explaining Christ's Divine Behavior & His Limited Human Behavior.

Eloy Craft · Aug 19, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Just because you say so does not make it so. Our argument should be solely Scripture here, my friend.

We disagree on what it means, especially if you insist that Jesus is not naturally human. Scriptures do teach He is and it is a dealt with heresy from the past.

Eloy Craft · Aug 19, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Just because you say so does not make it so. Our argument should be solely Scripture here, my friend.

It makes sense with no hoops to jump through. A human soul that is assumed to God is Glorified. The state of all humans in Glory. The eternal state of Christ's soul you are looking for.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 19, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
No. He is God, and God knows all things. And He did not mimic anything, our Lord Jesus Christ is actually human.

Does this mean He has both a divine soul and a human soul that are distinct from one another and yet in perfect harmony with each other? Or do you think it is some kind of hybrid version of God's divine soul being 50% with the other part being a human soul 50% (perfectly mixed together)? You know, both halves making up a whole?

You said:
No. He did not "merge" with a human person. His Person became human.

My interest or point is not the mechanics of what transpired as a part of the process, but the end result of what was to be. Whether the divine Logos merged or just instantly "snap" (in an instant) became also human is not what I am getting at here. What I am getting at is the end result. Did Jesus have a human soul? Can we truly say that? How can He have both a divine soul and a human soul?

You said:
Scripture is explicitly clear that Christ was tempted in all ways like us, but that He did not sin.

I have no idea. But Scripture is absolutely clear that

1) He was tempted, but did not sin.
2) He was perfectly obedient.

Neither of those two statements seem to mean anything unless the reality of sin was in some way actually real for Him, which He conquered by His own perfect obedience and righteousness.

I believe it is talking about how Jesus was tempted externally in different ways. I do not believe it is talking about internal temptation. Hebrews 2:14 says that he took on flesh and blood and not a human soul. This is the context of Hebrews 2:17-18. Hebrews 4:15 can easily be read with the view that it is talking about external temptation.

Jason0047 said:
Can God sin?

You said:
No. God cannot sin. God cannot be tempted. And yet, Jesus was tempted.

This to me sounds like a contradiction in your belief system. If Jesus is God (And He is), then He could not be tempted to do evil. So Hebrews 2 and Hebrews 4 are talking about external temptation and not internal temptation.

Jason0047 said:
I personally do not think that is possible. The Incarnation would not change the nature of who God is.

You said:
And it didn't. He never ceased to be what He always was.

Then how can He also have a human soul?
It just doesn't make any sense.
I just do not think people really thought about this all the way through and how it does not make sense in light of the rest of Scripture.
You said He becomes fully human.
This means there is some kind of change from being fully divine taking on some form of humanity. I know. I know. You said, He became human. My point is that what is the end result.

Jason0047 said:
His very nature is holy even if He may be limited or restrained in some way. God will always still do what is naturally good because that is the essence of who God is. God is good.

You said:
And that's what happened--though tempted in all ways like us He did not sin.

It seems that your biggest stumbling block here is that the Incarnation is a paradox, and you are trying to force the Incarnation to be reasonable for you. It isn't. Because the Incarnation is a paradox that cannot be fully comprehended by our reason but is confessed by faith.

I believe you believe the way you do not because the Bible says it but because others have taught you this way.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
I just do not see how you believe the Word of God clearly spells out or strongly suggests that Jesus had a human soul and or human nature to actually be tempted internally to sin. This means you believe Jesus had lust but He simply refused to act on that lust and sin. For in order to be tempted you need to have lust or wrong desire. See James 1:14-15.

Do you believe Jesus had lust or wrong desire within Him?

You said:
How can God who cannot die die? I do not know how this can be, and yet that's exactly what happened.

The physical flesh and blood body died, NOT... GOD.
God is spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).
Jesus said His body was a temple (John 2:19).
This means it was just an outer building, or a shell, or like a robe or cloak.
The body was not the core of His soul.
The Eternal Logos was the core of His soul (or His mind, will, and emotions).

You said:
Christians believe that God who cannot suffer or die did suffer and die. That is a paradox.

No. It is not a paradox if you understand what happened. It is not a paradox for me. I understand clearly what happened. It's perfectly crystal clear. Jesus (the Eternal Logos) took on a shell of a flesh and blood body (While He suppressed His Omniscience) and the body suffered and died and the Eternal Logos continued on and went down into the heart of the Earth (Sheol or the realm of the dead) for three days and three nights. Then the outward shell was resurrected and then ascended to the Father (in Heaven) so as to make intercession between God the Father and man (So He can be our Heavenly high priest - entering the Heavenly temple by His blood).

You said:
To reject that paradox means denying something fundamentally essential to Christianity. You can resolve the paradox by saying that Jesus isn't God,

No way am I saying that. Jesus is God 100%. He is eternally always God.

You said:
or you can resolve the paradox by saying Jesus didn't really suffer...

Nor am I saying that, either. I believe Jesus did suffer in a real flesh and blood body. You do not need to have a human soul for that to happen.

You said:
And that's the problem here, the Incarnation is a paradox that you want to fight against.

-CryptoLutheran

Not at all. I understand the Bible just fine. I believe the Incarnation is not what you think it is. Jesus took on a human flesh and blood body. Not a human soul. For if Jesus were to still remain Eternally the Logos without a change, then he could not have magically changed into having a human soul, too.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 19, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I believe the human portion of him was merely the flesh and blood body only. Jesus said his body was a temple. So it is just an outer-shell or covering sort of like a cloak. It was not the essence of who He is.

ViaCrucis said:
It absolutely is the essence of who He is. Because Who He is is our Lord Jesus Christ, the Child of Mary, who suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, buried, dead, and who rose on the third day, ascended into the heavens, is seated at the right hand of the Father, from whence He will come again to judge the living and the dead. It absolutely is the essence of who He is. Because who He is is Jesus Christ. He is both the Eternal and Uncreated God the Word and the human Child of Mary, the Son of David, the Seed of Abraham.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, Jesus is the seed of Abraham in the fact that He had a human flesh and blood body. Jesus is the son of man because he had a human flesh and blood body. The gospel of Mark even appears to focus on how Jesus was a man. So his becoming a man was very important and does suggest a new identity because God had never taken on flesh before (Which was needed for our redemption). But being flesh is not the core of who Jesus is because He always existed as the Eternal Logos before that. Jesus did not stop being Jesus when He died. His Eternal being as the Logos (Which is the core of His mind, will, and emotions) continued on into the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 19, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
It makes sense with no hoops to jump through. A human soul that is assumed to God is Glorified. The state of all humans in Glory. The eternal state of Christ's soul you are looking for.

I disagree. There are many contradictions in Scripture I have already shown repeatedly within this thread. You did not address them. You are just offering your own words and not Scripture. Please bring up Scripture so we can talk about it and or please address (or explain) the contradictions I have presented.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 19, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
We disagree on what it means, especially if you insist that Jesus is not naturally human. Scriptures do teach He is and it is a dealt with heresy from the past.

Some folks have a romanticism with the past. I do not. Just because some council of men decided it was heresy does not really mean that it actually is. Please address the actual contradictions I presented with Scripture.

#1. We are to worship God alone (Luke 4:8); And not a human soul/spirit, too.
#2. Jesus is the everlasting ruler in Micah 5:2 (His origin is from everlasting and not the Incarnation).
#3. God cannot be tempted (James 1:13), and Jesus is God. Yet, people are saying Jesus can be tempted (Which contradicts James 1:13).
#4. No lust is in the Father (1 John 2:16), and Jesus and the Father are one. You need to have lust in order to be tempted according to James 1:14-15. So people are suggesting Jesus had lust (Which is wrong).
#5. Jesus is holy, undefiled, and separate from sinners (Hebrews 7:26). Yet, folks say that He was like sinners in the sense that He could have sinned.
#6. Jesus is the spotless Lamb; Yet, people are saying Jesus is not spotless because he was internally tempted in that fact that he considered in doing evil but simply did not do so.
#7. God was manifest in the flesh, confirmed by John 1:14, 1 John 4:2. This means that no human soul was not added to God in some way as the end result.
#8. Jesus said He came down from Heaven (This is the origin of Jesus and the origin of Jesus is not the Incarnation).

Eloy Craft · Aug 19, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I disagree. There are many contradictions in Scripture I have already shown repeatedly within this thread. You did not address them. You are just offering your own words and not Scripture. Please bring up Scripture so we can talk about it and or please address (or explain) the contradictions I have presented.

I addressed them and posted scriptures to support my point.

Mark 14:34
And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

Acts 2
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jason0047 said:
I believe Jesus came into this world physically. The internal part, the mind, will, and emotions was all the Eternal Logos.

That would be a Jesus that doesn't include a human mind a human will or human emotions. You got Jesus as something entirely different than described in scriptures. A Jesus that wouldn't have redeemed anything resembling a human.

Jason0047 said:
No. A human soul was not needed for our salvation. Peter says that Jesus bore our sins within his body on the tree (the cross). John says that His blood cleanses us from all sin. Nothing is mentioned in the Bible about how the soul of Jesus makes an atonement for us.

Scripture does express that flesh without a soul is dead.

Jason0047 said:
Just because you say so does not make it so. Our argument should be solely Scripture here, my friend.

Pot meet kettle.

Eloy Craft · Aug 19, 2018

Jason0047 said:
oes this mean has both a divine soul and a human soul that are distinct from one another and yet in perfect harmony with each other?
Or do you think it is some kind of hybrid version of God's divine soul being 50% with the other part being a human soul 50% (perfectly mixed together)? You know, both halves making up a whole?

Jesus human soul would be assumed to His divine Spirit. God can assume a soul with a body and become a human, a human can't assume divine Spirit and become God. When a human soul is assumed to God we call that heaven. Beatitude. Glory. Jesus was conceived face to face with His Father. That is the Glory He let be seen at the Transfiguration.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 19, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
I addressed them and posted scriptures to support my point.

Mark 14:34
And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

Acts 2
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

That would be a Jesus that doesn't include a human mind a human will or human emotions. You got Jesus as something entirely different than described in scriptures. A Jesus that wouldn't have redeemed anything resembling a human.

Scripture does express that flesh without a soul is dead.

Pot meet kettle.

And I said Scripture talks about God having a soul. Here are the verses:

Leviticus 26:11
And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
Leviticus 26:30
And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Zechariah 11:8
Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

So just because there is a mention of Jesus having a soul does not mean it is a human soul. I believe it is the divine soul of the Eternal Logos. For in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1:1).

If the Word was WITH God, this suggests that the Word (the Eternal Logos) has a divine soul that is unique or distinct amongst the Godhead or the Trinity. The Lord God who is one is also three.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 19, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
Jesus human soul would be assumed to His divine Spirit. God can assume a soul with a body and become a human, a human can't assume divine Spirit and become God. When a human soul is assumed to God we call that heaven. Beatitude. Glory. Jesus was conceived face to face with His Father. That is the Glory He let be seen at the Transfiguration.

Scripture please.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 19, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
I addressed them and posted scriptures to support my point.

Mark 14:34
And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

Acts 2
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

That would be a Jesus that doesn't include a human mind a human will or human emotions. You got Jesus as something entirely different than described in scriptures. A Jesus that wouldn't have redeemed anything resembling a human.

Scripture does express that flesh without a soul is dead.

Pot meet kettle.

You are also not addressing any of the contradictions I presented, too.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 19, 2018

DamianWarS said:
you're going to have to give some sources to these these terms you use to give them credibility. You can just make up stuff and say they are true, especially when they go against all of Christianity. You yourself say there is no one belief system that agrees with you. Doesn't that tell you something? Are you souly the keeper of truth that no one else knows?

The question is whether Jesus truly experienced temptation like we do if he did not have the same sinful desires that we have. Can he be a faithful and sympathetic high priest when he cannot relate to our experience of temptation in this way?

Some theologians such as Donald Bloesch have sought to resolve this tension by distinguishing between internal and external temptations.

Donald Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, vol.1, God, Authority, and Salvation (New York: Harper & Row Publishers, 1978)

Source:
http://www.nealhardin.com/did-jesus-experience-temptation-like-we-do/

Bible Highlighter · Aug 19, 2018

DamianWarS said:
you're going to have to give some sources to these these terms you use to give them credibility. You can just make up stuff and say they are true, especially when they go against all of Christianity. You yourself say there is no one belief system that agrees with you. Doesn't that tell you something? Are you souly the keeper of truth that no one else knows?

Answers in Genesis says there are three views in regards to whether Christ could have sinned. They mention two major theological positions by name on this point.

https://answersingenesis.org/who-is-god/god-is-good/can-god-be-tempted/

Anto9us · Aug 19, 2018

Strongs

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3986&t=KJV

πειρασμός peirasmós, pi-ras-mos'; from G3985; a putting to proof (by experiment (of good), experience (of evil), solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication, adversity:—temptation, × try.

I. an experiment, attempt, trial, proving

A. trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:14)

B. the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy

i. an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances

ii. an internal temptation to sin

a. of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand

iii. of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness

iv. adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness

C. temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men

i. rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves

Anto9us · Aug 19, 2018

The same word - pirasmos - is used in James and elsewhere, to convey all of the above "types of temptations", including that definition "C" trial of God by men, as in 'Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God', which in the strict view of James 1:13 -- CANNOT HAPPEN ANYWAY because God cannot be tempted.

James begins his whole book saying we (the brethren) should count it all joy when we fall into temptations of various sorts

Anto9us · Aug 19, 2018

Anto9us said:
ii. an internal temptation to sin

a. of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand

Anto9us · Aug 19, 2018

From the nealhardin.com site:

"In the first temptation, Satan says to Jesus, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread” (Matthew 4:3)."

Interesting that it is worded the FIRST temptation, yes, it is the first of the RECORDED temptations by the devil.

But in Luke, as I posted before, there are a full FORTY DAYS of being tempted of which we have no specifics:

Luk 4:1
And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Luk 4:2
Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

FireDragon76 · Aug 19, 2018

The traditional understanding was that Jesus was a divine person with a human nature, or having both a nature of divinity and humanity.

Jesus had a human mind and soul, just as we all do.

Anto9us · Aug 19, 2018

Of the "cast yourself down" temptation, Jesus' response was

Luke 4:12
And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

--------

Presumably, Jesus could have been quoting:

Deu 6:16
Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

--------

The point is, a strict jumping down on James 1:13 over and over as a declaration that God cannot be tempted flys in the face of the command in Deuteronomy of DON'T DO IT - DON'T TEMPT THE LORD THY GOD

Eloy Craft · Aug 19, 2018

Jason0047 said:
So just because there is a mention of Jesus having a soul does not mean it is a human soul. I believe it is the divine soul of the Eternal Logos. For in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1:1).

Jason0047 said:
Scripture please.

That seems to be your favorite logical fallacy. When a theological idea is posed, it should be founded on reason primarily. It should not violate scripture or the faith. When you counter sound reasoning supported by scriptures with "scripture please' that is a misuse of scripture. It is an appeal to authority 'designed' to deflect a rebutle that can't be refuted. Several posters here have soundly refuted your claim with reason supported by Scriptures. You still blurt out" Show me 'the' scripture".You use the scriptures as the argument supported by reason but it's not reason it's sales. The way Scriptures are supposed to be used is by supporting an idea that is usually too subtle to meet your fearful demand of "show me the scripture" New Ideas are not usually explicit in scripture and sometimes many layers under any one surface reading. You would have said that to thefather's about the trinity. They wouldn't have accepted your condition either. But that is your unreasonable demand for inherently subtle spiritual truths. You've had to say that Spiritual nature includes human nature by claiming God's Spirit is naturally extended and located on earth. That the human soul and the Divine Spirit are the same and interchangeable is theologically .... foolishness. The notion that God the Son assumed a human body as if that were natural for spiritual natures is more foolery. There is no other kind of soul than aa human one. Only humans have a soul. Only humans are spirits that naturally extend materially for a local life. In the OT there was no distinction so the terms interchanged. Your God has a soul scriptures are out of context. It baffles me why you want Jesus to not include the principle of human life.

May the Lord' Bless you and Keep you.

Two Possibilities in Explaining Christ's Divine Behavior & His Limited Human Behavior.

Myth only points, Truth happened!

Myth only points, Truth happened!

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Myth only points, Truth happened!

Myth only points, Truth happened!

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Myth only points, Truth happened!

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