The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

Imagican said:

It is really quite simple: if we have NO 'free will' or 'free choice' then it would be IMPOSSIBLE to be judged according to our 'choices'.

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When I was much younger, I did view free will the same as you. But now, I would respectfully submit that it's not that simple. I now believe and would testify that the deliberate commission/choice to sin is an indicator of corruption of the soul, and therefore should not be mistaken as any indicator of a free will.

To admit that we as carnal beings, have an inherent disability to sin, is to confess that we are in need of a savior if we are to escape the condemnation that comes from being under the law. For this reason it makes perfect sense why Jesus does not ever imply that we are to be judged according to any allusion of free choice to sin or not sin, but rather according to what measure we use to judge others. Hence the belief in a free choice to sin or not sin becomes an impediment to mercy and understanding and a source for self condemnation.

If we have no 'free will' or 'free choice' then there would be no way for us to do something righteous or commit 'sin'. Take away 'free will' or 'free choice' we are nothing more, nothing less than 'puppets'.

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Respectfully, this cannot be true since Jesus was without sin and he did what was always rghteous, and yet he was not a puppet. I believe that sin must be seen as a disability and not counted as any ability. If we do not see this, then I believe that we are as blind and deceived as the Pharisees who were critical of the Christ in the following scripture. Matthew 9:11-13.

And think about this: if there is no 'free will' or 'free choice', what is the purpose of the Bible? In other words, if one has no 'freedom to choose', what is the purpose of any 'book of learning'?

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I don't see free will as applicable to learning since ignorance is not a choice but a predisposition.

I believe the purpose of the bible is to testify to the Christ. To learn that to know God is to know the value of Love. To learn that only through faith in the perfect Image of God sent by God is the soul filled with Light and a person enabled to be righteous.

Everything in our lives is a matter of us having the 'freedom' to choose. From the moment you awake each day the day begins with 'choices'. For every single act we perform each day is a matter of 'choice'. The fact that our choices are often limited in no way negates the fact that our choices are OUR OWN. How else could we be held responsible for them?

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While it is true that we must be always choosing to be doing something or not doing something at every moment so long as we are alive, this does not mean that the will is free as pertains to morality/immorality. It simply means we're alive, just as all living creatures have individual wills that also must be choosing to do something or to not be doing something at all times.

In regards to being held responsible, I would say that God would not expect a carnal minded person to be capable of anything but following a carnal desire.

Please consider these two statements and consider how the word "responsibly" denotes something different in each one. I would say that the first one is concerned with establishing one's own righteousness, and the second is concerned with establishing God's righteousness. Romans 10:3.
1) We can only act responsibly when we take responsibility for our sins.
2) We can only act responsibly when we truly care about how our actions will affect others.

I thank you for your sincere consideration of my thoughts concerning these matters.

Imagican said:

But even then, we do have Biblical examples of those that at one point allowed God to do the choosing for them and then turned around and ignored God and did their own choosing.

Moses, David, Jonah, Peter, etc........... and these don't even take into account the stories offered by Christ such as the Prodigal son and people hearing the truth and then turning their backs on it.

Look, Adam and Eve are proof enough of 'freedom of choice'. They were commanded by God not to eat yet they ignored this command and did eat. God did not 'stop them from eating'. He left it up to them to either follow His command or disobey it.

We are all gifted with this same 'freedom' to choose our own path or that which God would have us follow.

Blessings,

MEC

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So let say a slave was given a command by a master like let say a master to "moe" to goto egypt" Or Davie to not peep at his neighbor's wife, or jon to go to a city on the coast or pete to come out in a storm, and these slaves all start too and for whatever reason, cold feet, doubts, really hot outside, want to go on a cruise rather than a mission trip ect.. they ultimately did not obey their masters as slaves... now how then would the master react if it was his will or direction they should follow and not their own?

Do you get it? free will is not about being programed that is satan's analogy to put thinking people to sleep. Free will is to have the freedom to choose what you will without consequence. that you will becomes primary and is not first filtered through that of your master (sin or God)

Here the men you mention's will is first filtered through the will of God. yes they choose ther own path, but like slaves were caught "punished" and sent back on the will of their master.

That is how a slaves was defined then one who's will is first subject to the will of another. You can not have free will if you are first bound by sin or bound by God.

I sit and think, "What am I going to do this weekend?" Are you trying to say that I do not possess the free will to make a decision and then, if I am able, DO what I choose to do?

Of course we are ALL confined to limitations. I can't be an astronaut simply by making that choice. But within the limits surrounding me, I certainly have the ability to LISTEN, or ACT or BELIEVE or REJECT what I choose.

Sanity certain makes certain choices unlikely but even that doesn't mean that someone can't make an inane choice.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican said:

I sit and think, "What am I going to do this weekend?" Are you trying to say that I do not possess the free will to make a decision and then, if I am able, DO what I choose to do?

Of course we are ALL confined to limitations. I can't be an astronaut simply by making that choice. But within the limits surrounding me, I certainly have the ability to LISTEN, or ACT or BELIEVE or REJECT what I choose.

Sanity certain makes certain choices unlikely but even that doesn't mean that someone can't make an inane choice.

Blessings,

MEC

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you seem to have missed my orginal thread, from the op:
In essence Jesus died to BUY those who believe from sin and evil. Why do i say buy? because the bible again never says we have free will, rather over and over and over again the bible even Christ describes us as slaves. We are slaves to sin or we elect to be slaves of God. and that is the only true choice we can 'freely' make.

"Oh but drich I choose what color car I have I choose where to eat lunch I choose who I married.. ect.. ect.." That is not free will. Those are examples of choices. true free will described 600 years ago is or was a thought experiment. it is not possible with or without God. for example let start by defining it now.
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1. 1.
   the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction.. Example:

Let's say you did choose what color car you got, but did you choose out of all the cars that ever was or ever will be? is the car you got the One car you always ever wanted? or was it the color you wanted in your price range? Did you even get all the options you wanted? did they make you get the undercoating you didn't want? did you choose THE car or A car that fit your life style/budget?
Did you eat lunch somewhere you could afford locally? or did you hope on a jet and flew to nyc because you wanted 2 slices of real pizza? Did you marry that rock start or movie star that you really really like?or did you marry some guy from the singles group over someone else in the singles group?

Life is a series of choices a or b all of which are determined by your lot/station in life. Like a slave even a chattel slave in colonial america they had choices they were given. some were even given a small salary that they could spend on whatever they wanted.. Some even saved up to buy their own wives.. but even from our collective perspective now we would not say those slaves where free just because they had a few choices they could make. So too are we to God. We are not free. We are all slaves to sin which is why John 3:18 says he need not judge us, as we are prejudged when we do not accept Christ. because atonement buys us from sin. If we don't elect to be bought then we are already on the path to destruction.

Christ himself tells us we are slaves to sin and for those who can not except this are disavowing the words of HIS FATHER, in favor for the words of their own father.. We must accept the words of Christ because the doctrine of 'free will' is poison and will keep us from ever knowing or even understanding God's truth.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...e-will-is-not-a-biblical-thing-right.8075805/

How can a fully omniscient, all-knowing, always fully knowing, God, make beings with a will that is as free as his is...?

Isn't that (those levels of) freedom based on level of knowledge, and maybe, power...? And how much freedom, or what level of freedom, constitutes a conscious (free) being, or spirit(ual) being...? And do some have more or less freedom than others...?

But if they were created with that freedom, and God truly knows all... didn't he make them that way...? and knew at when, what time, where, (you'd be at) when, whatever, all of it, ever single leaf of every single tree, and when, how it grows, falls to the ground, every single leaf that falls to the ground anywhere, at any time he knows, and more, way more... Anyway, and did he make some to have their or those certain paths in life, but some were more or less free than others, but none as free as God, without God that is...

What does that mean...? What does it mean to be "free"...? To me it means being more than a program, truly conscious, and that would seem to necessitate free will (on some level), but God's full omniscience makes one wonder just how free, and how much free will or freedom of choice do we really all have since their is one who knows all, knew all, and will continue to always know all...

That is the problem most people are having, reconciling God full omniscience, and how in order to have or be that, (always fully omniscient being) that we (little humans) can't have choice, not on that level, and wonder how many real choices if any, we really all do have...?

God Bless!

Are we in the Matrix...? What is the Matrix...? Is it the difference between those who have choice and those who do not...? Cause in the second Matrix, with the Architect, we learn that none of them were really making any choices up to that point thus far, that Neo's path thus far, and all those around's hims path, and most definitely the people in the Matrix not woke up yet, All of it is all part of another program, and that he (Neo) was linchpin on or in, the reality made him and his program (Neo"s) "life" a necessity, and that this choice he was going to make was the only real choice thus far (Second film), That only he (Neo) would make...

In other places in the films they are told or guided what to do where to go almost subliminally, by characters like the Oracle, who could see a lot...

But, in other places in the film the characters are saying that they wished they knew what they were supposed to do/go/whatever, this means their path they were seeking guidance and direction... But, a precursor always triggers that, and those, their precursors, and so on and so forth, and, does it go all back to Adam, or what...?

Neogaia777 said:

begin

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<Neo>Are we in the Matrix...? What is the Matrix...? Is it the difference between those who have choice and those who do not...? Cause in the second Matrix, with the Architect, we learn that none of them were really making any choices up to that point thus far, that Neo's path thus far, and all those around's hims path, and most definitely the people in the Matrix not woke up yet, All of it is all part of another program, and that he (Neo) was linchpin on or in, the reality made him and his program (Neo"s) "life" a necessity, and that this choice he was going to make was the only real choice thus far (Second film), That only he (Neo) would make...
In other places in the films they are told or guided what to do where to go almost subliminally, by characters like the Oracle, who could see a lot...
But, in other places in the film the characters are saying that they wished they knew what they were supposed to do/go/whatever, this means their path they were seeking guidance and direction... But, a precursor always triggers that, and those, their precursors, and so on and so forth, and, does it go all back to Adam, or what...?<end>

end

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A fantasy science fiction movie is a poor place to form one's faith and practices. I prefer the Bible.

JoeP222w said:

Because God had given her a new nature. Unless God does a work of grace in the heart, there is no ability to choose that which is God glorifying.

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She was given the choice to stop sinning as she was internally informed about doing what she should be doing. She had already chosen to ignore societies rules. Now Jesus was telling her do to right by her heart.

SkyWriting said:

Now Jesus was telling her do to right by her heart.

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Because God was transforming her heart by His grace. But I don't find anywhere where Jesus told her to follow her heart, but rather to follow Him.

drich0150 said:

Christ himself tells us we are slaves to sin and for those who can not except this are disavowing the words of HIS FATHER, in favor for the words of their own father.. We must accept the words of Christ because the doctrine of 'free will' is poison and will keep us from ever knowing or even understanding God's truth.

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Aren't you talking in an extreme way? Yes the Bible says "we are slaves to sin" but just like real slaves in history such doesn't mean they wanted to stay bound to their masters. When God has his word preached those who hear have free will to choose or reject.

drich0150 said:

you seem to have missed my orginal thread, from the op:
In essence Jesus died to BUY those who believe from sin and evil. Why do i say buy? because the bible again never says we have free will, rather over and over and over again the bible even Christ describes us as slaves. We are slaves to sin or we elect to be slaves of God. and that is the only true choice we can 'freely' make.

"Oh but drich I choose what color car I have I choose where to eat lunch I choose who I married.. ect.. ect.." That is not free will. Those are examples of choices. true free will described 600 years ago is or was a thought experiment. it is not possible with or without God. for example let start by defining it now.
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1. 1.
   the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction.. Example:

Let's say you did choose what color car you got, but did you choose out of all the cars that ever was or ever will be? is the car you got the One car you always ever wanted? or was it the color you wanted in your price range? Did you even get all the options you wanted? did they make you get the undercoating you didn't want? did you choose THE car or A car that fit your life style/budget?
Did you eat lunch somewhere you could afford locally? or did you hope on a jet and flew to nyc because you wanted 2 slices of real pizza? Did you marry that rock start or movie star that you really really like?or did you marry some guy from the singles group over someone else in the singles group?

Life is a series of choices a or b all of which are determined by your lot/station in life. Like a slave even a chattel slave in colonial america they had choices they were given. some were even given a small salary that they could spend on whatever they wanted.. Some even saved up to buy their own wives.. but even from our collective perspective now we would not say those slaves where free just because they had a few choices they could make. So too are we to God. We are not free. We are all slaves to sin which is why John 3:18 says he need not judge us, as we are prejudged when we do not accept Christ. because atonement buys us from sin. If we don't elect to be bought then we are already on the path to destruction.

Christ himself tells us we are slaves to sin and for those who can not except this are disavowing the words of HIS FATHER, in favor for the words of their own father.. We must accept the words of Christ because the doctrine of 'free will' is poison and will keep us from ever knowing or even understanding God's truth.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...e-will-is-not-a-biblical-thing-right.8075805/

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And what of Christ's word pertaining to 'setting us free'?

You speak of being a slave to sin here. But previous to this you stated that those that aren't are slaves to God. Those aren't words we are taught in the Bible.

You won't hear me argue one bit about those that are 'slaves' to sin. Not one word. But even those slaves, like ALL slaves, have freedom of CHOICE. If they are willing to suffer the consequences, there is no choice available to them that they are incapable of MAKING.

Blessings,

MEC

And even those that are 'slaves to sin' ARE capable of 'turning that around' through CHOICE.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican said:

And what of Christ's word pertaining to 'setting us free'?

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there is a sign to let us know when we have been set free... If you do not know of this sign then according to Paul you while being an heir to freedom must remain a slave under God.

You speak of being a slave to sin here. But previous to this you stated that those that aren't are slaves to God. Those aren't words we are taught in the Bible.

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and if i can show you topically where they are? then what? will you accept them or find a reason to hold on to what you already believe? if your just going to argue then there is no point in a week you will be telling the same thing. "the bible doesn't say we are slaves to God." Religious people rewrite scripture all the time. before I spend a month going back and fourth Do you even care/will you yield to what the bible says? not scrap book theology (meaning 1/2 a verse from here 2/3 a verses from there 5 words from this book and 2 verses from that one, then read it like God wrote it that way!) no I am not a scrap book theologian, which is the only way anyone under God can see themselves as anything but slaves...

Again a slave being one who's personal will filter's through his master's first (all of it.) meaning if you have choice it is because whomever you serve allows it. So choice does not =free will Choice offered by a master is the will of the master.

People in the western countries tend to confuse the bible with the bill of rights. It is not the same document.

You won't hear me argue one bit about those that are 'slaves' to sin. Not one word. But even those slaves, like ALL slaves, have freedom of CHOICE.

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according to Paul in romans they have but one choice. and that is to choose redemption. do you want me to go back down this road and show you? start reading romans chapter 6 through 9 everything/most of/other than what Jesus Himself has to say) can be found there.

If they are willing to suffer the consequences, there is no choice available to them that they are incapable of MAKING.

Blessings,

MEC

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which is the opposite of what the bible actually teaches but is a spot on representation of modern 'christianity' based on morality rather than redemption.

Do you want to know the difference?

Bobber said:

Aren't you talking in an extreme way? Yes the Bible says "we are slaves to sin" but just like real slaves in history such doesn't mean they wanted to stay bound to their masters. When God has his word preached those who hear have free will to choose or reject.

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Not me who rejects that all are free. Jesus Himself points out that not all can understand this freedom, Paul even takes it a step further and says to those who are young or can not understand this freedom while free.. must remain as slaves.
4 This is what I am saying: When young children inherit all that their father owned, they are still no different from his slaves. It doesn’t matter that they own everything. 2 While they are children, they must obey those who are chosen to care for them. But when they reach the age the father set, they are free. 3 It is the same for us. We were once like children, slaves to the useless rules of this world. 4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son, who was born from a woman and lived under the law. 5 God did this so that he could buy the freedom of those who were under the law. God’s purpose was to make us his children.

6 Since you are now God’s children, he has sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts. The Spirit cries out, “ Abba, Father.” 7 Now you are not slaves like before. You are God’s children, and you will receive everything he promised his children.

Did you watch the shawshank redemption? remember brookie? the old man librarian with the crow? he was in jail so long morgan freedman's character said he was institutionalized. meaning he had been in jail so long the outside world to brookie became the prison. Some of us in our freedom can only understand the 'institutionalism.'

Honestly... it is those who think they are free to choose where or not they sin. those who typically have free will wrapped up in their minds are typically the guys who are the one's bound to slavery as paul outlines it. There comes a point when those who are not slaves emerge, but the act that so few know of it proves my point for me.

You are trying your best to hang on to something that isn't true. How you came upon your 'personal revelation' is irrelevant. In my opinion, it is false understanding.

From the incident in 'the garden', the Bible makes it perfectly clear that we possess 'freedom' to choose. Free will. Good, bad or ugly, the choices we make are our own. Whether we choose to heed the Holy Spirit, or not, is up to US. Sometimes it may 'seem' as if our choices are not our own, but that simply isn't so.

And let me add this: Often, we are unwilling to accept responsibility for our choices. Choosing instead to believe that 'we have no choice'. But if that were true, then it would be impossible for any fair or righteous judgement to made according to our choices. It really IS 'that simple'.

So, your problem is that you can't show me or anyone else where the Bible teaches what you are trying to sell. Having limited choices does not eliminate the FREEDOM to choose.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican said:

You are trying your best to hang on to something that isn't true. How you came upon your 'personal revelation' is irrelevant. In my opinion, it is false understanding.

From the incident in 'the garden', the Bible makes it perfectly clear that we possess 'freedom' to choose. Free will. Good, bad or ugly, the choices we make are our own. Whether we choose to heed the Holy Spirit, or not, is up to US. Sometimes it may 'seem' as if our choices are not our own, but that simply isn't so.

And let me add this: Often, we are unwilling to accept responsibility for our choices. Choosing instead to believe that 'we have no choice'. But if that were true, then it would be impossible for any fair or righteous judgement to made according to our choices. It really IS 'that simple'.

So, your problem is that you can't show me or anyone else where the Bible teaches what you are trying to sell. Having limited choices does not eliminate the FREEDOM to choose.

Blessings,

MEC

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Freedom to choose is not free will

Slaves were given freedom to chose certain things were they free? Our choices are dependant on whom we serve. If we had free will we could choose whatever we want. but no If we serve satan then sin becomes our immediate master. meaning what we have to choose from will be filtered through sin first. in other words Satan will provide a choice A or b you can not choose 123 the ablity to choose 123 apart from your master is free will.

If we choose to serve God then We can not serve sin, we can not love sin. So the choice God gives us (seeing how he will not put us in a situation of more than we can bear) or He prearranged choice, a or b or c or do or e) no matter what we have the ability to choose under God if we serve God God will prearrange a set of choices. again not free will but our will is filter by limited choice through what God wants for us.

Understand? Free will is to say I want to hang out with God and still sin. know it or not this is what most 'atheists want.' they want God to accept them exactly as they are no repentance no atonement required. this is a choice of free will, will God honor this choice? Can satan make it happen? no Free will means ultimate power to choose something and then make it happen. Only God has free will. You have been given as a slave a choice. Because you are a slave you are not free. your will will bend to that of the Father God or Satan. you have no say in this. which is why I can point out free will is a lie from the pit of hell that ties men's hearts to bondage of the law.

True freedom is to be a slave of God, not be made subservient to the doctrine of free will. This doctrine was made by the medieval church to further persecute those who are otherwise saved but bound to sin. rather then seek the freedom Paul offers in Romans the doctrine of free will means to tell you that even sin choice is made by you because apart of you is still lost/evil. now pair this with the doctrine of indulgences (which was literally paid time out of purgatory) and you can see why the church pushed 'free will' over the doctrine of slavery Jesus Himself taught

If you can't wrap you mind around anything else answer this... If the bible was compiled in 3 ad and the doctrine of free will was not compiled until 13ad, how is this a biblical doctrine? why is it never mentioned or demonstrated even once? why does Jesus thin we are slaves when asked? why do we have to be bought with his blood? why is there a ransom to be paid? why do vast majority of his parables center around "dulos"/slaves also translated servants when speaking of people and God?

Choice is not free will slaves in colonial america were often times given choice, most of which had sundays off and the day to themselves. where these men considered to be free? what about on sunday were they free to do as they will on that day? no they were allowed to choose anything they wanted so long at it retained itself with in the master's preview.

Why is it important to leave the doctrine of free will back in the middle ages? because like so much BS church doctrine that came from that time this doctrine while sounding like it is freeing you binds one to legalism and service not to God but to the religion it self. This is the very same lie sold to most atheists and philosophers, because it is a greek construct not a biblical principle.

childeye 2 said:

When I was much younger, I did view free will the same as you. But now, I would respectfully submit that it's not that simple. I now believe and would testify that the deliberate commission/choice to sin is an indicator of corruption of the soul, and therefore should not be mistaken as any indicator of a free will.

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Well one can develop various degrees of how FREE can be defined. A person's PRIDE can continually harden their own heart but in that sense....they've worked against their own freedom or the degree they have it. I illustrate with the color options on this site. "C" stands for color. And we'll say blue is freedom. Different degrees of it. C C C C It's ALL blue or it's all FREEDOM even though it's at different degrees.

We can take one who has much riches or has much power in this world. They can become more prone to not thinking they need God and when they do that they themselves are reducing their own FREEDOM. They have FREEDOM but circumstances can work to reduce it...BUT...it's still their choice. They're free. Such was the case of Pharaoh in Egypt with Moses. he was powerful and allowed his PRIDE to reduce his FREEDOM.

A person can lock themselves into a prison of the mind of their own making and more or less not have a way out of it. Could it be said freedom for them is gone? I'd say not. I'd say they can still make an about face and go against the grain and chose something different. A person may have social vices like smoking & drinking and friends or loved ones might encourage them to stop.

In PRIDE they laugh it off....then a doctor sometimes later informs them if they don't stop drinking/smoking/overeating now they'll be dead in six month....suddenly they have the freedom to do something different. Their mental state has changed. If they kept on and died would that mean they didn't have free will. No I'd still say they did but they chose not to use it. They allowed their pride to ultimately destroy them.

Ron Gurley said:

The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

"Free will" and SALVATION by GRACE through spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF (John 3+Eph.2)

Man's spiritual "Free Will"
...VERSUS...
the spiritual perfect WILL of the TRI-UNE GOD

In Genesis, Man had the "free will" to OBEY...remain in Eden...spiritually walk and talk with his UNSEEN God.
...VERSUS...
do his own thing...follow his selfish and natural tendancy to turn from God...DISOBEY

In the gospels / NT:

1."free will" BEFORE "salvation"...

The spirit of Man can ACCEPT or REJECT the DRAWING/CALLING of God.
...the offer of the gift of undeserved spiritual Grace/Love/Mercy
through spirit-led Faith/Belief.

2. "free will" AFTER "salvation"...

a. guided into spiritual "good works"
...VERSUS...
following the 1. world (chaos) and 2. the old "ways of the flesh" (sin nature) and 3. the temptations/attacks of spirit beings: devil/demons.

b. Be filled with / controlled by / pray and worship / walk in THE SPIRIT
...VERSUS...
grieve / quench / do not follow THE SPIRIT's guidance and comfort.

God gives Man the opportunities to CHOOSE...allowing the spiritual freedom to choose...free to follow the will of God...or not.

The following concepts are difficult to understand and perhaps logically contradictory....BOTH EXIST!...

A. The Sovreignty of an all-everything perfect God, a SPIRIT!
...VERSUS...
B. the spiritual exercise of the "free will" of Man (and angels!) inside God's will

ACCEPT...RECEIVE...BELIEVE...etc...OR...NOT!

John 1: 12-13 (NASB)...Will of Man VS the Will of God ~= "free will"
But as many as RECEIVED Him,(spiritually born again from above)
to them He gave the right to become children of God,
even to those who BELIEVE in His name,
who were BORN,
not of blood
nor of the will of the flesh
nor of the will of man,
but (spiritually BORN) of (the Will of) God.

John 3: 11-12 ...Accept Jesus' "testimony"..OR...NOT~= "free will"
11 Truly, truly, I say to you,
we speak of what we know
and testify of what we have seen,
and you do not ACCEPT our testimony.
12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe,
how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

John 8 : 31-38 (NASB)...Jesus: FOLLOW...OR...NOT ~= "free will"
...“If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”...( to follow the will of God)

1 Thessalonians 2:13 ...Accept God's "word"...or...NOT ~= "free will"
For this reason we also constantly thank God
that when you received the "word of God" which you heard from us,
you ACCEPTED it not as the word of men, but for what it really is,
the "word of God", which also performs its work in you who BELIEVE.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a "natural man" (unsaved) does not ACCEPT the things of the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him;
and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually appraised.(discerned)

Hebrews 10: 31;35-36(NASB)...Jesus the Christ ...or... Judgment? ~= "free will"
It is a terrifying thing (for unbelievers) to fall into the hands of the living God....
Therefore, do not throw away your confidence (in a believer's salvation),
which has a great reward.For you have need of endurance,
so that when you have done the WILL of GOD,
you may receive what was promised. (joy!)...John 15!

1 John 2: 15-17(NASB)...John: Do Not Love the World...Love God ~= "free will"
Do not love the world nor the things in the world.
If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world,
the lust of the flesh and
the lust of the eyes and
the boastful pride of life,
is not from the Father, but is from the world.
The world is passing away, and also its lusts;
but the one who does the WILL of GOD lives forever.

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Amen Jonah is a perfect example of someone who was chosen by God and yet rebelled against Him. John 15:1-0 Jesus warns the apostles they must remain (abide) in Him. Why would He say this if they had no choice in the matter? There is literally tons of evidence in the scriptures supporting free will.

Bobber said:

Well one can develop various degrees of how FREE can be defined. A person's PRIDE can continually harden their own heart but in that sense....they've worked against their own freedom or the degree they have it.

Their mental state has changed. If they kept on and died would that mean they didn't have free will. No I'd still say they did but they chose not to use it. They allowed their pride to ultimately destroy them.

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That's interesting. I'm not sure, but your definition of free will is not quite the same as other more common definitions I've heard, since you say they have a free will but then chose not to use it. However this leads me to respectfully ask, with what will did he choose not to use his free will? You mention pride as working against one's own self, but this necessarily implies an ignorance at work in the will which would only be changed through being informed. If you're saying that a free will is one that is qualified through degrees of knowledge, I would agree that that would be a coherent definition.

I also agree that the term free is relative, and also that in linguistics all such subjective and relative terms derive their fluid value of meaning in the degrees from that which they are relative to and qualified by. However, when pondered in the moral/immoral or good and evil dichotomies, the term free in free will becomes relative to two pre-existing and opposing powers. Hence the meaning of free changes to become it's opposite in denotation and connotation somewhere in the middle of the dichotomy. If the will is free of morality they are then slaves to immorality, and if they are free from immorality, they are then slaves to morality.

But there is a higher umbrella which defines and distinguishes that which is morality and immorality and to which they are both relative to in value. That dichotomy is the knowledge and ignorance of God. God is the absolute which defines sin as that which is not God, either by adding to Him or taking away from Him. I view God as the Light that illuminates the darkness in all directions around Him. Hence the Image of God one holds to be true, would pre-determine their interpretation of right and wrong and subsequently their choice. Paul who preached the Christ was once Saul who persecuted the Christ. Therefore a corrupt image of god corrupts the light of the soul making dark appear as light and light appear as dark. In this sense the term free implying an autonomy to be moral or immoral becomes incoherent since any perversion of God no matter how small is a deviance and is sin, and is death.

While of course we make our own choices as all creatures do according to God's providence, still I cannot see how there can be a such thing as an autonomous choice to be either ignorant of God or knowledgeable of God, since the created do not decide who God is. It therefore appears to me that the ignorance of God must be informed through revelation. And I even believe that this revelation of knowledge can eventually become taken for granted in a blindness of vanity that would be understandably common to the creation. For Satan was lifted up in himself when seeing that he knew more than others. Hence pride and sin formed out of just such a vanity and not through a choice to be vain or not be vain. For this reason I can ponder how it is that when the created says I am not vain, it is a vain thing to say. But for God to say I am not vain, it is not vanity.

Please understand that I am attempting to discern and articulate those things which are self evident as opposed to opinion. We might be seeing the same thing but saying it differently.

BNR32FAN said:

Amen Jonah is a perfect example of someone who was chosen by God and yet rebelled against Him.

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Why is rebellion against God counted as proof of free will rather than proof of ignorance?

John 15:1-0 Jesus warns the apostles they must remain (abide) in Him. Why would He say this if they had no choice in the matter?

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Because they had no choice "if" they want to live. Respectfully, the bottom line is God is either to be trusted or distrusted. To even ponder that there's an option in the matter, is to ponder that you know better than God.