Can the law or religion save you?

Dan the deacon said:

That (believing in Christ )is a belief, not a law.

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Lets read it.

Commandments are laws.
So yes. The Bible says there is a law that says we should believe on Jesus. So what you say is not true.

When Paul condemned the idea of being justified by the Law, he was referring to the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole. He condemned things like circumcision (Which was a part of the Old Law). For Paul said,


In other words, Paul was trying to refute "Circumcision Salvation" and or "Works Alone Salvationism" (that did not include God's grace) (See Ephesians 2:8-9).

The condemning of trying to be saved by "circumcision" and or "the Law of Moses" is evident even at the Jerusalem Counsel.


However, Paul was not against keeping the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) as a part of the salvation process. For Paul said,


James says,

Jesus says,

The author of Hebrews says,

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

In fact, James makes it clear that we are not saved by faith only. For James says,


So we are not saved by Faith (Belief) Alone (James 2:24) anymore than we are saved by Works Alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). A person is saved both in Justification and in Sanctification. A person is saved both by God's grace and by the good works of the Lord done through their life (after they are saved by God's grace).

Jason0047 said:

Lets read it.

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).​

Commandments are laws.
So yes. The Bible says there is a law that says we should believe on Jesus. So what you say is not true.

When Paul condemned the idea of being justified by the Law, he was referring to the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole. He condemned things like circumcision (Which was a part of the Old Law). For Paul said,

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).​

In other words, Paul was trying to refute "Circumcision Salvation" and or "Works Alone Salvationism" (that did not include God's grace) (See Ephesians 2:8-9).

The condemning of trying to be saved by "circumcision" and or "the Law of Moses" is evident even at the Jerusalem Counsel.

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).​

However, Paul was not against keeping the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) as a part of the salvation process. For Paul said,

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).​

James says,

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).​

Jesus says,

"...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).​

The author of Hebrews says,

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

In fact, James makes it clear that we are not saved by faith only. For James says,

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only." (James 2:24).​

So we are not saved by Faith (Belief) Alone (James 2:24) anymore than we are saved by Works Alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). A person is saved both in Justification and in Sanctification. A person is saved both by God's grace and by the good works of the Lord done through their life (after they are saved by God's grace).

​

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Salvation does not come by works. Works are what we do because of salvation. Just as obedience does not save you it is also done because we have entered salvation

Dan the deacon said:

Salvation does not come by works. Works are what we do because of salvation. Just as obedience does not save you it is also done because we have entered salvation

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The Bible disagrees with you.


After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).



Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

Dan the deacon said:

Such an odd post. You say you do not fail miserably and then you admit to being a sinner. Sorry to inform you but if you sin, you have failed miserably. Christ washef you as white as snow and then you sinned. Do you consider that making a passing grade? Tje only reason any of us miserable sinners will find heaven as home is becaise Christ loves us. Not because we are worthy.

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Why are you changing the subject? I was talking about keeping His commandments, not sinning. You said you failed miserably at keeping them. But then, you said you don't commit adultery nor steal. How is it you can keep these two commandments and not the others? How can one say they are a Christian and fail miserably at loving God? That's a head-scratcher.

If you fail miserably at loving God, I would suggest resigning your deacon position. Hypocrites are frowned upon by Jesus. In fact, anyone who says they are a Christian and do not do what Jesus says, are the worst of hypocrites. Sure, they can fool people here on earth, but, they will never fool Jesus.

Dan the deacon said:

Salvation does not come by works. Works are what we do because of salvation. Just as obedience does not save you it is also done because we have entered salvation

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What kind of theology are you promoting? So you think disobedience will save you? Perhaps you can show us where the Bible says this.

EmSw said:

Why are you changing the subject? I was talking about keeping His commandments, not sinning. You said you failed miserably at keeping them. But then, you said you don't commit adultery nor steal. How is it you can keep these two commandments and not the others? How can one say they are a Christian and fail miserably at loving God? That's a head-scratcher.

If you fail miserably at loving God, I would suggest resigning your deacon position. Hypocrites are frowned upon by Jesus. In fact, anyone who says they are a Christian and do not do what Jesus says, are the worst of hypocrites. Sure, they can fool people here on earth, but, they will never fool Jesus.

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Not keeping His commandments is what sin is. That is how we know we have sinned.

EmSw said:

What kind of theology are you promoting? So you think disobedience will save you? Perhaps you can show us where the Bible says this.

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No. I believe that believing on Christ saves you. Not having kept the law or anything else. Once saved we should endevour to keep.the law bit it is a certainty that we will fail from time to time.
Only Christ has kept the law. Many have tried but none have suceeded.
If we focus on the 600+ laws we will fail. If we focus on Christ we will succeed.

TuxAme said:

It isn't the law that saves- but following the moral law is critical to being saved.

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Which one can only do with a heart purified by faith:

Acts 15: NASB

7After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days, God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us.9He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.

10Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

EmSw said:

Since Jesus is the Word, the Word of the law is Jesus Himself. Just as Jesus hasn't passed away, neither has the Word of the law. Like Jesus, the law is now written in our hearts, not passed away.

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Which made Jesus Christ the perfect sacrifice for our sins. For it is His Righteousness which justifies.

Romans 4: NASB
20Yet he did not waver through disbelief in the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God was able to do what He had promised.22That is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”e

23Now the words “it was credited to him” were written not only for Abraham, 24but also for us, to whom righteousness will be credited—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.25He was delivered over to death for our trespasses and was raised to life for our justification.

EmSw said:

Jesus maintained that to enter life, keep the commandments. Who are you going to believe?

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Yes who was He speaking to when saying this?

redleghunter said:

Yes who was He speaking to when saying this?

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This was exactly going to be my question . I know the answer but I wonder if EmSw does?

Dan the deacon said:

Not keeping His commandments is what sin is. That is how we know we have sinned.

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Why can't you keep His commandments? Why can't you love Him? This sounds much like an unregenerate person.

Dan the deacon said:

No. I believe that believing on Christ saves you. Not having kept the law or anything else. Once saved we should endevour to keep.the law bit it is a certainty that we will fail from time to time.
Only Christ has kept the law. Many have tried but none have suceeded.
If we focus on the 600+ laws we will fail. If we focus on Christ we will succeed.

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What endeavor? You said you failed miserably at keeping His commandments.

Why are you looking at the law which pertains to the external? The ten commandments pertain to the internal. You say focus on Christ, but you don't seem to be concerned with what He said about His commandments. Do you only focus on what you desire?

redleghunter said:

Which made Jesus Christ the perfect sacrifice for our sins. For it is His Righteousness which justifies.

Romans 4: NASB
20Yet he did not waver through disbelief in the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God was able to do what He had promised.22That is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”e

23Now the words “it was credited to him” were written not only for Abraham, 24but also for us, to whom righteousness will be credited—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.25He was delivered over to death for our trespasses and was raised to life for our justification.

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Now show me where Jesus said anything about crediting anything of His righteousness to you. He said YOUR righteousness should exceed the Pharisees. Plus, Jesus never said anything about being a human sacrifice for you.

redleghunter said:

Yes who was He speaking to when saying this?

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Really? Do you not think He was talking to you? Do you think His words were empty and without life for you?

HatGuy said:

This was exactly going to be my question . I know the answer but I wonder if EmSw does?

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Why would it not be to you? Do you pick and choose what He said which is for you?

EmSw said:

Now show me where Jesus said anything about crediting anything of His righteousness to you. He said YOUR righteousness should exceed the Pharisees. Plus, Jesus never said anything about being a human sacrifice for you.

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What does your canon look like? I ask because your quote above seems to reject apostolic teachings.

Yes Jesus did say He shed His very own blood for our sins.

Luke 22: NASB

19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.21“But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table. 22“For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!” 23And they began to discuss among themselves which one of them it might be who was going to do this thing.

Matthew 26: NASB

26While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. 29“But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

EmSw said:

Really? Do you not think He was talking to you? Do you think His words were empty and without life for you?

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Context is important. The man said he kept all the commandments and yet Jesus said he still lacked something.

So it would help if we had your exegesis of the passage to understand what you are trying to teach here.

As your comments stand you are using the words of Christ like a daily devotional.

EmSw said:

Why would it not be to you? Do you pick and choose what He said which is for you?

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No, but I do know that when God told Israel to not eat shellfish he was not talking to me. Or do you think He is?

redleghunter said:

So it would help if we had your exegesis of the passage to understand what you are trying to teach here.

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I agree. I was going to paste it here but perhaps it's better if you, @EmSw go to the passage you are quoting and then let us all know if you've done and are doing everything Jesus said that man must do in that passage.

HatGuy said:

I agree. I was going to paste it here but perhaps it's better if you, @EmSw go to the passage you are quoting and then let us all know if you've done and are doing everything Jesus said that man must do in that passage.

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And then take note when the disciples asked who could be saved. Jesus responding what is impossible for man is possible for God.