Removal Theology not Replacement Theology

LoveGodsWord · Aug 17, 2018

Brian Mcnamee said:
psalm 105
O seed of Abraham His servant,
You children of Jacob, His chosen ones!
7 He is the LORD our God;
His judgments are in all the earth.
8 He remembers His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac,
10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
11 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan
As the allotment of your inheritance,”
12 When they were few in number,
Indeed very few, and strangers in it.
13 When they went from one nation to another,
From one kingdom to another people,
14 He permitted no one to do them wrong;
Yes, He rebuked kings for their sakes,
15 Saying, “Do not touch My anointed ones,
And do My prophets no harm.”
God reaffirms the covenant with the land to Abraham's descendants and it lasts for over 1000 generations. that would be a minimum of 40,000 years. if the church is Israel how come the church has not possessed the land of Canaan all these years?

Hi Brian, just had a little bit of time here to share some of Gods Word. It may take some time to digest. This is just providing some more scripture on David's reply for those interested.

In the OLD Covenant we have many types and these are shown in the NEW COVENANT as ant-types what the types were pointing to. These types of the OLD COVENANT are also referred to in the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures as SHADOWS. Many of the OLD COVENANT laws were Shadow fulfilled in Christ and God's plan of salvation under the NEW COVENANT.

SHADOW LAWS OF THE OLD COVENANT Click me.

PSALM 105 is addressed to the "seed of Abraham". God's promise to Abraham
that his decendents should inherit the land of Canaan. Let's look at the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures and link them to the NEW in Hebrews 11.

Now the promise of the Land of Canaan was to Abraham's decendents (Genesis 15:18-21). Isaac received the same promise from God to both himself and his decendents (Genesis 26:2-3) as did Jacob recieve the promise to himself and to his decendents (Genesis 28:13).

None of the above ever received the promised land and died before it was given to the 12 tribes of ISRAEL (Decendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) under Joshua as he took over from Moses.

ISRAEL with each of the 12 tribes received the fulfillment of the physical promise of the land of Canaan (type and Shadow) given them by God under the leadership of Joshua to each tribe (Joshua 1-24).

Now let's move to the NEW COVENANT which shows the Shadows of the OLD...

HEBREWS 11:8-10; 13-16 [8], By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should later receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing where he went. [9], By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: [10], For HE LOOKED FOR A CITY which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

[13], These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
[14], For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
[15], And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from which they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
[16], But now they desire a better country, that is, a HEAVENLY: therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for HE HAS PREPARED A CITY FOR THEM.

REVELATION 21:2 [2], And I John saw the HOLY CITY, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

REVELATION 21:10 [10], And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God

ISAIAH 65:17 [17], For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2 PETER 3:13 [13], Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, in which dwells righteousness.

The land of Canaan was the Shadow of the HEAVENLY that is yet to come. Canaan of the OLD testament is only temporary and not forever. When the NEW HEAVENS and NEW EARTH are made after the 2nd coming this will be the FOREVER fulfillment of God's promise to his people (ISRAEL) and the fulfillment of the Shadows of the promised land.

.............

Just want to point out somthing you quote from Psalms 105:7-11 which is in reference to God's promise to ISRAEL and the promised land as God's REMEMBRANCE of his "EVERLASTING COVENANT" [means without end] this is emphasised in v8 and v10

Now, v8 is in reference to God "REMEMBERING" his Covenant to ISRAEL. This scripture is NOT saying how long ISRAEL will inherit the land of Canaan as you have stated at the end of your post commenting on Psalms 105.

.............

PARALLEL TRANSLATIONS OF PSALMS 105:8

New International Version
He remembers his covenant forever, the promise he made, for a thousand generations,

English Standard Version
He remembers his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Berean Study Bible
He remembers His covenant forever, the word He ordained for a thousand generations—

New American Standard Bible
He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,

King James Bible
He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

Christian Standard Bible
He remembers his covenant forever, the promise he ordained for a thousand generations--

Contemporary English Version
He will never forget his agreement or his promises, not in thousands of years. *

Good News Translation
He will keep his covenant forever, his promises for a thousand generations.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He remembers His covenant forever, the promise He ordained for a thousand generations--

International Standard Version
He remembers his eternal covenant— every promise he made for a thousand generations,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He remembers his covenant for eternity, the word that he commanded to a thousand generations

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He always remembers his promise, the word that he commanded for a thousand generations,

JPS Tanakh 1917
He hath remembered His covenant for ever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations;

New American Standard 1977
He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,

Jubilee Bible 2000
He has remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded for a thousand generations,

King James 2000 Bible
He has remembered his covenant forever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

American King James Version
He has remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

American Standard Version
He hath remembered his covenant for ever, The word which he commanded to a thousand generations,

Douay-Rheims Bible
He hath remembered his covenant for ever: the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

English Revised Version
He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;

Webster's Bible Translation
He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

World English Bible
He has remembered his covenant forever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations,

Young's Literal Translation
He hath remembered to the age His covenant, The word He commanded to a thousand generations,

.............

As you can see here the scripture is talking about God remembering his Covenant to ISRAEL which are those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD'S WORD. It is not a reference to ISRAEL possessing Canaan for 1000 generations. It is about God not forgetting his promise to ISRAEL (his people) which will be fulfilled in the NEW EARTH.

Hope this is helpful.

Done222 · Aug 17, 2018

If the restoration of Israel after the Babylonian captivity is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Zechariah, then Cyrus is the Messiah.

Cyrus was called the anointed, but he is called the anointed not because he is the Messiah, but because he is symbolic of the Messiah.

How is Cyrus symbolic of the Messiah? Cyrus restored Israel. This is how we know that the Messiah, the true Messiah when He comes, He will restore Israel.

Jesus didn’t restore Israel. You can say that Jesus restored Israel by building the Church, but there are details in Zechariah that make no sense if you say that the Church is the restored Israel.

Yet, amazingly a number of these detail have been fulfilled before our eyes with modern Israel.

This is because Jesus is alive. The Messiah restores Israel, so Jesus who is alive right now and acting in the world has orchestrated events to bring about the restoration of the modern nation of Israel. Just as Cyrus as a king from a great distance brought about the restoration of Israel, now Jesus the King of kings from the right hand of God has brought about the restoration of Israel.

Read about the six day war and all the miraculous events that occurred.

When the old testament talks about Israel can it sometimes be talking about the Church? Yes, but not always.

Dave L · Aug 17, 2018

Done222 said:
If the restoration of Israel after the Babylonian captivity is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Zechariah, then Cyrus is the Messiah.

Cyrus was called the anointed, but he is called the anointed not because he is the Messiah, but because he is symbolic of the Messiah.

How is Cyrus symbolic of the Messiah? Cyrus restored Israel. This is how we know that the Messiah, the true Messiah when He comes, He will restore Israel.

Jesus didn’t restore Israel. You can say that Jesus restored Israel by building the Church, but there are details in Zechariah that make no sense if you say that the Church is the restored Israel.

Yet, amazingly a number of these detail have been fulfilled before our eyes with modern Israel.

This is because Jesus is alive. The Messiah restores Israel, so Jesus who is alive right now and acting in the world has orchestrated events to bring about the restoration of the modern nation of Israel. Just as Cyrus as a king from a great distance brought about the restoration of Israel, now Jesus the King of kings from the right hand of God has brought about the restoration of Israel.

Read about the six day war and all the miraculous events that occurred.

When the old testament talks about Israel can it sometimes be talking about the Church? Yes, but not always.

In the New Covenant, Jesus is Israel along with those united to him in faith. The resurrection on the last day is the restoration of Israel into the New Heavens and earth.

Der Alte · Aug 17, 2018

Done222 said:
If the restoration of Israel after the Babylonian captivity is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Zechariah, then Cyrus is the Messiah.
Cyrus was called the anointed, but he is called the anointed not because he is the Messiah, but because he is symbolic of the Messiah....

In Hebrew "the Messiah" is written ﬣﬦשּׁיִח It is never used in reference to Cyrus, which in Hebrew is actually Koresh.

Brian Mcnamee · Aug 17, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi Brian, nice to meet you.

For me I think the real "replacement theology" is the one that rejects or ignores God's WORD or tries to make it say something that it is not. God's ISRAEL according to God's WORD in both the OLD TESTAMENT and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures is all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the NEW COVANANT

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

[NEW COVENANT promise from JEREMIAH 31:31-34]

................

WHO IS GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT?

SCRIPTURE SUPPORT 1 (Click me)
SCRIPTURE SUPPORT 2 (Click me)
SCRIPTURE SUPPORT 3 (Click me)
SCRIPTURE SUPPORT 4 (Click me)

................

Yep there is a lot of scripture provided in the linked posts above. Yet people choose to simply ignore God's WORD because it does not agree with them.

Ignoring God's WORD and replacing it for something it is not saying is the real "replacement theology".

Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

Hi I appreciate the kind tone of your letter and on this debate I have already agreed with this point and maintain that the Israel of the nation derived from the patriarchs is also a distinct entity with a distinct future prophetic scenario that is coming to pass. At the great white throne the Israel of God or governed by God will all be watching those who's names are not written in the book be judged by the things they did in this life. The New heaven and New Jerusalem comes down. This is after the 1000 year reign of Christ. Many have tried to allegory this period and that is one option with high stakes as if this is a literal prophecy about Satan being bound and released again at the end of that time; withe those beheaded raised to live and reign for that time; withe the bast and the false prophet in the lake of fire for all that time, then that might be considered as taking away from the book which we are warned not to do.
I offered Zech 14 as proof text that when Jesus comes with His saints He is then king over all the earth and this kingdom will not end. He saves Israel just as Luke 1 prophesied He would. he will take the throne of David just like promised and Davids throne is not a heavenly throne. This literal interpretation fits with the current geo political situation. The Jews are back as a nation and as Ezekiel 36 speaks of God gathers them back to be sanctified in them. He gathers them for His sake and promises to take away their reproach from all the other nations. He accuses them of profaning His name in all the nations in which they were scattered. God promised to do this when he gathers them back.
In fact hosea 3 is very clear.
1 Then the LORD said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover[fn] and is committing adultery, just like the love of the LORD for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans.”
2 So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver, and one and one-half homers of barley. 3 And I said to her, “You shall stay with me many days; you shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man—so, too, will I be toward you.”
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Think about this inductively. Who is he speaking to? what is he saying and when will it happen? God is talking to apostate Israel (not the church)Israel will go many days without Sacrifice of king. So at the end of many days they will have a king and it is tied to the return of the sacrifice. Israel has not had a king since Babylon or a sacrifice since 70AD. The the return of the sacrifice is tied to the return of the king. The end result is Israel who is apostate will seek the LORD and fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days. The return of the sacrifice is now well prepared for. The temple institute has replicated everything necessary to resume the daily sacrifices. This is not a sacrifice that is acceptable for sin but the stage set for the antichrist to commit the abomination of desolation in. The raising up of David is promised in 3 places in scripture. That chapter in zEch 14 they declare in that day the LORD shall be king over all the earth. Daniel says in the middle of the week the prince who is to come will put an end of the daily sacrifices. This matches Revelation that the beast will have 42 months to reign over every tribe tongue and nation. The response that all prophecies are fulfilled in Jesus I agree with and the literal view has Jesus fulfilling everyone literally. This is a long post but barely touching the surface of all the things that must take place.

ewq1938 · Aug 17, 2018

Dave L said:
The 1000 years are not the kingdom, it is eternal. And when the 1000 years end, Satan attacks the kingdom. This alone says there is no millennium.

You just mentioned 1000 years...that's a Millennium. So there is one obviously.

Dave L · Aug 17, 2018

ewq1938 said:
You just mentioned 1000 years...that's a Millennium. So there is one obviously.

No, the 1000 years is a symbol for Satan's binding. When the 1000 years end, Satan is loosed. Besides, the kingdom is eternal, not just 1000 years.

ewq1938 · Aug 17, 2018

Dave L said:
No, the 1000 years is a symbol for Satan's binding. When the 1000 years end, Satan is loosed. Besides, the kingdom is eternal, not just 1000 years.

No one said the kingdom isn't eternal. The Binding of Satan is the Millennium/1000 years and it is a period of ruling the nations with a rod of iron. That period starts and ends, not the Kingdom.

Dave L · Aug 17, 2018

ewq1938 said:
No one said the kingdom isn't eternal. The Binding of Satan is the Millennium/1000 years and it is a period of ruling the nations with a rod of iron. That period starts and ends, not the Kingdom.

The 1000 years represents the binding of Satan He is loosed when they end. The Kingdom does not end.

Dave L · Aug 17, 2018

ewq1938 said:
You just mentioned 1000 years...that's a Millennium. So there is one obviously.

No, the 1000 years represent the binding of Satan. When they end he is loosed. The kingdom is eternal.

ewq1938 · Aug 17, 2018

Dave L said:
The 1000 years represents the binding of Satan He is loosed when they end. The Kingdom does not end.

Why repeat yourself and ignore my reply?

Eternally Grateful · Aug 17, 2018

Dave L said:
God did not break his promises. But he defines to whom he made them. And it is not the broken off unbelievers. All of the promise are in Christ and those who belong to him.

God have one nation the promise of land, he wrote in lev 26 the guildelines for living in peace in that land, or punishment for disobedience, the strongest to be removed from her land being spread throughout all nations, and having her enemies live in her land

But even then, god will never forget them never let them be destroyed, and if they repent, he will let her live in land again.

If god does not keep that promise, he is untrustworthy period.

Being a believer was not a condition of that covenant, being a physical descendent of abraham, issac and jacob (israel) was the only binding condition.

Eternally Grateful · Aug 17, 2018

Dave L said:
No, the 1000 years represent the binding of Satan. When they end he is loosed. The kingdom is eternal.

And anyone who thinks he is bound today would make me wonder what they are thinking.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 17, 2018

Done222 said:
If the restoration of Israel after the Babylonian captivity is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Zechariah, then Cyrus is the Messiah.

Cyrus was called the anointed, but he is called the anointed not because he is the Messiah, but because he is symbolic of the Messiah.

How is Cyrus symbolic of the Messiah? Cyrus restored Israel. This is how we know that the Messiah, the true Messiah when He comes, He will restore Israel.

Jesus didn’t restore Israel. You can say that Jesus restored Israel by building the Church, but there are details in Zechariah that make no sense if you say that the Church is the restored Israel.

Yet, amazingly a number of these detail have been fulfilled before our eyes with modern Israel.

This is because Jesus is alive. The Messiah restores Israel, so Jesus who is alive right now and acting in the world has orchestrated events to bring about the restoration of the modern nation of Israel. Just as Cyrus as a king from a great distance brought about the restoration of Israel, now Jesus the King of kings from the right hand of God has brought about the restoration of Israel.

Read about the six day war and all the miraculous events that occurred.

When the old testament talks about Israel can it sometimes be talking about the Church? Yes, but not always.

Hi Done222, thanks for your reply, nice to see you again.

Not really Cyrus cannot be the Messiah we will look at God's WORD in a bit more detail shortly. The point you are missing is that Jesus restored ISRAEL because ISRAEL is the Church under the NEW COVENANT and Jesus is the Messiah [Annointed]. This fit's in with the decree to restore Jerusalem and the prophecy of the coming of the Messiah in Daniel 9.

Now let's have a look at some more scriptures in relation to the restoration of ISRAEL and the coming of the Messiah [annointed] you claim is Cyrus or is it Jesus?

As was shown earlier by Der Alter the Hebrew word "the Messiah" is written ﬣﬦשּׁיִח; It is never used in reference to Cyrus, which in Hebrew is actually Koresh.

Let's go back now to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. As shown earlier we see Ezra receiving his decree from Artaxerxes in 457 BC. (In the seventh year of Artaxerxes) The decree gives further help in establishing the temple, but it also gives Israel the right to establish it's own laws (EZRA 7:1-27) making it the correct decree that links all scriptures together from Daniel 9.

Let's take a look at some connecting scriptures

................

TIME DECREE TO REBULD JERUSALEM AND THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH

DANIEL 9:25 [25], Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The book of EZRA in prophecy of Daniel 9 gives 1 DAY = 1 YEAR

EZRA 4:6 [6], And when you have accomplished them, lie again on your right side, and you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed you each day for a year.

Three decrees were given in the book of EZRA to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. The correct decree to restore and build Jerusalem that lines up with scripture providing accurate dates is that given in the 7th year of Artaxerxes [EZRA 7:1-27]. This is the only decree that allowed ISRAEL to become self governing and was given in 457 BC. Now look at Dan 9:25 again...

DANIEL 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks

*Given 1 DAY = 1 YEAR [EZRA 4:6]
*THE DECREE TO REBUILD JERUSALEM DATE IS GIVEN 457 BC [EZRA 7:1-27]
*7 WEEKS [49] + 60 WEEK [420] + 2 WEEKS [14] = 483 DAY = 483 YEARS [Dan 9:25]
* 457 BC + 483 YEARS TO THE MESSIAH [Dan 9:25] = 27 AD.

................

WHAT HAPPENED IN 27AD?

History shows the date of 15th year Tiberius Ceasar LUKE 3:1 [Co-Reign with Augustus] was 27 AD which links the following events with scripture...

* Baptism of Jesus [John 1:32-33]
* We have found the Messias... [Margin - The Anointed; John 1:41]
* Jesus begins preaching "The time is fulfilled",... [Mark 1:15].

................

CONCLUSION: The decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem from Artaxerxes in 457 BC [EZRA 7:1-27] links perfectly with DANIEL 9:25 to the coming of the MESSIAH [Annointed margin same meaning; John 1:41] to 27AD when Jesus was Baptised and began his ministry proclaiming "THE TIME IS FULFILLED REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL [Mark 1:15]" What time is fulfilled? DANIEL 9:25 from the restoration of Jerusalem to the Messiah.

Cyrus was never the Messiah, Jesus is the Messiah and came to restore ISREAL by bringing in the NEW COVENANT to all those who would BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD [ISRAEL].

................

GOD'S ISRAEL AS DEFINED IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT

SCRIPTURE SUPPORT 1 (Click me)
SCRIPTURE SUPPORT 2 (Click me)
SCRIPTURE SUPPORT 3 (Click me)
SCRIPTURE SUPPORT 4 (Click me)

................

Hope this helps. :wave:

LoveGodsWord · Aug 17, 2018

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi I appreciate the kind tone of your letter and on this debate I have already agreed with this point and maintain that the Israel of the nation derived from the patriarchs is also a distinct entity with a distinct future prophetic scenario that is coming to pass.
At the great white throne the Israel of God or governed by God will all be watching those who's names are not written in the book be judged by the things they did in this life. The New heaven and New Jerusalem comes down. This is after the 1000 year reign of Christ. Many have tried to allegory this period and that is one option with high stakes as if this is a literal prophecy about Satan being bound and released again at the end of that time; withe those beheaded raised to live and reign for that time; withe the bast and the false prophet in the lake of fire for all that time, then that might be considered as taking away from the book which we are warned not to do.
I offered Zech 14 as proof text that when Jesus comes with His saints He is then king over all the earth and this kingdom will not end. He saves Israel just as Luke 1 prophesied He would. he will take the throne of David just like promised and Davids throne is not a heavenly throne. This literal interpretation fits with the current geo political situation. The Jews are back as a nation and as Ezekiel 36 speaks of God gathers them back to be sanctified in them. He gathers them for His sake and promises to take away their reproach from all the other nations. He accuses them of profaning His name in all the nations in which they were scattered. God promised to do this when he gathers them back.
In fact hosea 3 is very clear.
1 Then the LORD said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover[fn] and is committing adultery, just like the love of the LORD for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans.”
2 So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver, and one and one-half homers of barley. 3 And I said to her, “You shall stay with me many days; you shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man—so, too, will I be toward you.”
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.
Think about this inductively. Who is he speaking to? what is he saying and when will it happen? God is talking to apostate Israel (not the church)Israel will go many days without Sacrifice of king. So at the end of many days they will have a king and it is tied to the return of the sacrifice. Israel has not had a king since Babylon or a sacrifice since 70AD. The the return of the sacrifice is tied to the return of the king. The end result is Israel who is apostate will seek the LORD and fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days. The return of the sacrifice is now well prepared for. The temple institute has replicated everything necessary to resume the daily sacrifices. This is not a sacrifice that is acceptable for sin but the stage set for the antichrist to commit the abomination of desolation in. The raising up of David is promised in 3 places in scripture. That chapter in zEch 14 they declare in that day the LORD shall be king over all the earth. Daniel says in the middle of the week the prince who is to come will put an end of the daily sacrifices. This matches Revelation that the beast will have 42 months to reign over every tribe tongue and nation. The response that all prophecies are fulfilled in Jesus I agree with and the literal view has Jesus fulfilling everyone literally. This is a long post but barely touching the surface of all the things that must take place.

Hi Brian, thanks for your nice reply.

Ehh I can't talk for long posts

. I know some do not like long posts but if someone takes the time to write then I like to read. If I have studied a subject and can conrtibute then I like to share as much information and detail as possible for anyone that may be interested in God's WORD.

Please forgive me; just wondering which points do you agree on? Which point do you not agree on and why? I am thinking in relation to all the posts I have sent you. There is quite a few you have not responded to so not necessarily only this one you are quoting from. Thanks for your thoughts. I am just hoping to better understand what you are saying before replying further.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word

Eloy Craft · Aug 17, 2018

Eternally Grateful said:
And anyone who thinks he is bound today would make me wonder what they are thinking.

Satan as bound refers to the OT age before Grace. satan has been bound by the Grace of Christ. We have authority over demons. The age of Grace lasts until the end of time. At the end of time Satan will be released one more time to persecute Christians.

Note: The end of time is better thought of as the end of history. A humanity that doesn't die doesn't have a history because everyone in it is still alive.

Eternally Grateful · Aug 17, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
Satan as bound refers to the OT age before Grace. satan has been bound by the Grace of Christ. We have authority over demons. The age of Grace lasts until the end of time. At the end of time Satan will be released one more time to persecute Christians.

Note: The end of time is better thought of as the end of history. A humanity that doesn't die doesn't have a history because everyone in it is still alive.

Lets see

When satan is bound we are told he will not be able to decieve the nations any more

Lets look at the nations

Stalin, hitler, islam, china, north korea, ww1 ww2

Yet, satan is quite at work,

Even god knows it, when he said through paul to be on the lookout, satan comes as a lion seeking who he may devour

Nope, satan is not bound yet, he is quite busy.

ewq1938 · Aug 17, 2018

Eternally Grateful said:
Lets see

When satan is bound we are told he will not be able to decieve the nations any more

Lets look at the nations

Stalin, hitler, islam, china, north korea, ww1 ww2

Yet, satan is quite at work,

Even god knows it, when he said through paul to be on the lookout, satan comes as a lion seeking who he may devour

Nope, satan is not bound yet, he is quite busy.

Yes that is obviously true. He isn't just bound either which many ignore...he will also be imprisoned and a seal placed upon that prison. That's a triple lock down!

Eternally Grateful · Aug 17, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Yes that is obviously true. He isn't just bound either which many ignore...he will also be imprisoned and a seal placed upon that prison. That's a triple lock down!

Yes, and the earth will live in peace, as prophesied.

Dan the deacon · Aug 17, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi Brian, just wondering why you have not replied to my earlier posts (e.g. post # 42)?

If you believe God's Chruch is ISRAEL as described as those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD then what is your argument?

Not sure how to read this. You seem to be agreeing that God's Chruch is ISRAEL as per your earlier statement above then you talk about refuting some scriptures regarding "National ISRAEL"?

So do you agree as your saying above that God's Church is ISRAEL? Adding the Hebrew word NATIONAL or "NATION" does not add any weight to an argument saying that ISRAEL is a nations therefore not a Chruch as the HEBREW word meaning (posted earlier)

The HEBREW word used for "NATION" is dependent of course on the context of the scripture used and chapter. In the OLD TESTAMENT the scripture references can be applied to ISRAEL as a Holy or Great Nation (Genesis 12:2; 17:20; 18:18; 21:18; 46:3; Exodus 19:6; 32:10 etc) or the surrounding gentile people.

The HEBREW WORD for NATIONS is [H1471] גּוי גּי'; gôy gôy simply means; a massing of people;

ISRAEL as a Holy Nation = a Holy mass of people
ISREAL as a Great Nation = a Great [MIGHTY] mass of people

This is inline with God's promise to Abraham...

GENESIS 22:17[17], That in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is on the sea shore; and your seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

A NATION in the HEBREW word meaning is a massing or mass of people this is the same as God's Church is a massing or mass of people.

.............

NATIONS as applied to God's people in the OLD COVENANT...

EXODUS 19:6 [6], And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and an HOLY NATION. THESE ARE THE WORDS YOU SHALL SPEAK TO THE CHILDREN OF ISREAL.

Applied to Christians as God's ISREAL in the NEW COVENANT...

2 PETER 2:9 [9], But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an HOLY NATION, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The OLD TESTAMENT scriptures are the keys to unlock the meaning of the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures together the OLD and NEW Testament make up the Word of God and we are to live by EVERY WORD of it (Matthew 4:4)

God's ISREAL according to the OLD and NEW COVENANTS are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Gentiles are now grafted in (Romans 11:16-27)

So here you are saying you provided proof texts to refute David's position? I thought you agreed with David's poistion? Sorry Brian please forgive my confusion here. So do you believe God's Church is ISRAEL as you have stated above or not? What texts do you believe you have provided that refute David's position that God's Church is not ISRAEL?

Now for my sake, how do you believe your interpretation of these same texts that you believe refute David's postions that the Church is not God's ISRAEL are reconciled with all the scriptures provided from God's WORD in post # 6, posts # 7; post #9 and post # 11 that define who God's ISRAEL are according to God's WORD in the OLD and NEW COVENANT?

I will not presume to answer for David as this is not addressed to me. I will provide some comments however on the books of Ezekiel and Zachariah that may be of interest.

Did you know that both the books you are using in Zachariah and Ezekiel in reference to God's people ISRAEL being scattered among the nations was written at the time when ISRAEL were scattered among the nations?

Both the books of Ezekiel and Zachariah were written during the ISRAELITES captivity and exhile to the empires of the Babylonians and Medes and Persians. (EZEKIEL Wiki; ZACHARIAH wiki).

The scripture references to the bringing back or restoration of ISRAEL from the nations can be seen from the book of Ezra 1-4. In the year 536 B.C., the Jewish exiles, empowered by Cyrus' decree, returned to Jerusalem. Their city lay in ruins, but they began it's restoration including the rebuilding of the temple, laying its foundation and also began working on building the city and city walls.

Here is a brief history:

Cyrus, in 536 B.C., allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem, but Cyrus died in 530 B.C., he was followed by Cambyses, who was followed by False Smerdis. Smerdis reigned only half a year, long enough for his soldiers to destroy a great many temples around the empire. It would seem that the earlier progress made of rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem was also ruined at this time, because, according to Haggai 2:18, in 520 BC the Israelites are again beginning work by laying the foundation of the temple. Very probably it was under Smerdis' rule that the Israelites gave up all hope of ever restoring their temple again. Haggai says, they stopped work believing "The time is not right", and he says that the temple was in "ruins".

Daniel 9: 25 reads "From the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem the street shall be built again and the walls, even in troublous times"

In 522 B.C., Darius I, a fairminded ruler, goes about setting things straight again in the Persian empire. With his support and Haggai's encouragement, temple construction is resumed. From 520-515 B.C. the work went forward, and the temple was built.

Basically from 536-457 B.C. the Israelites were a struggling group of people with no real government, city or well defined country. They built themselves houses, and managed to build a temple. It wasn't until Artaxerxes came to the throne 464 B.C. that we actually see them rebuilding the city. It was during Artaxerxes reign that the adversaries appealed to legislation to stop Israel, for they were "building a rebellious and evil city".

So we see Ezra receiving his decree from Artaxerxes in 457 BC. (In the seventh year of Artaxerxes) The decree gives further help in establishing the temple, but it also gives Israel the right to establish it's own laws. This is why this decree is so important to the re-establishment and rebuilding of Jerusalem!

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CONCLUSION: The books of Ezekiel and Zachariah were written at the time, in reference to the exhile of ISRAEL as they were in captivity among the nations to the BABYLONIAN and the Medes and Persian empires (scattered among the nations). The reference of coming out of the nations and the restoration of ISRAEL here is in reference to ISRAEL being free to rebuild Jerusalem as decreed and shown in the book of Ezra 1-4. The two books you reference do not support your view that ISRAEL is not God's people (Church) or those who BELIEVE and FOLOW God's WORD. It is a reference to the restoration and rebuilding of ISRAEL when they were in captivity among the nations.

Hope this helps.

Modern day Israel is not the Church. But Israel is. Modern Israel is not a nation promoting Christ. His Church Israel is.
Will many come to be a part of the true Israel? That is our hope.

Removal Theology not Replacement Theology

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