1 Thess 5:4-10 teaches eternal security

Doug Melven · Aug 17, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
In my study Bible, the title above Deut 28:1-14 is: "promise of blessings for obedience".
Above v.15-to end of chapter is the title: "promise of curses for disobedience".

This indicates that God promised the JEWS, (not specifically addressed to future NT believers), these promises. When they obeyed, God blessed them. When they rebelled, He disciplined them, including sickness, physical death and loss of nationhood.

This is totally different, and not related at all. Jesus took God's wrath for the entire human race. Deut 28 is about how His chosen people live their lives; either in obedience or in rebellion.

And that principle continues throughout human history.

Isa 1:18-20
18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Again, directed to Israelites, but the principle applies to ALL of God's children.

Because of
Why is DT 28 not for believers, but isaiah 1 is?
What criteria do you use to establish that?

This the relevance of Ephesians 3:6.
Because of Christ's obedience, He should have been blessed, but He was not. He was cursed.
Because we are in Christ through the Gospel, we get the blessing Christ should have got.

FreeGrace2 said:
What I am "hearing" from this is that your view is that God doesn't discipline His children for disobedience (sin).

Yes. He doesn't punish a righteous person for sin.

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you unaware of James 5:16? Sickness is specifically noted, as well as being healed.

I am very aware of James 5:16 and the verses preceding it.
If God put a sickness on you, why would you want to get healed and so get out of God's will?

FreeGrace2 said:
No, God does discipline His children, but not for sin.

This makes no sense. There is no other reason.[/QUOTE]
Did you know that Christ had to go through discipline to grow in grace?
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

FreeGrace2 said:
This ignores the fact that believers STILL sin, STILL grieve the Holy Spirit, STILL quench the Holy Spirit, STILL fail to be holy and blameless.

You seem confused about our permanent justification and forgiveness based on faith in Christ, and our on-going sin problem.

Not at all. The thing I know is my sin has been cast away as far as the East is from the West and God doesn't deal with based on my sin. Psalms 103

FreeGrace2 said:
Why do we need to confess our sins, per 1 John 1:9? Because it affects our fellowship with God and Christ. We need cleansing from our on-going sins.

That verse is for unbelievers.
Before becoming a child of God, you must admit/confess you are a sinner.
If you don't admit you are a sinner, you cannot have fellowship with God, that is be His child.
If you read on through chapter 2 John says
My little children these things I write unto you, that you sin not. Clearly admitting believers sin.
And if any sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. Note that he does not say refer back to 1:9.

FreeGrace2 said:
just" means???? Please don't denigrate the significance of broken fellowship with God.

I will not only denigrate it, I will fight it with every thing I have. It is a horrible doctrine.
It is not taught in Scripture.
The idea that we are in any way separated from God because of a sin is just a horrible doctrine that puts people under condemnation.

Gr8Grace · Aug 17, 2018

Doug Melven said:
I will not only denigrate it, I will fight it with every thing I have. It is a horrible doctrine.
It is not taught in Scripture.
The idea that we are in any way separated from God because of a sin is just a horrible doctrine that puts people under condemnation.

So what say you about the prodigal son? It probably paints the most vivid picture for us for the doctrine of fellowship. 1 John 1:9 is 'coming to our senses' and going back to the Father......who has open arms and welcomes us back.........Because we are His son's that are no longer under condemnation.

Gr8Grace · Aug 17, 2018

I know this thread is about the TRUTH of eternal security.....But I got to add.

Paul says run the race within bounds. That means God has a specific plan for us. We cannot go out of bounds and still be in His plan. If we don't know about fellowship and His plan for us within His bounds, then all is for naught. Saved, but enter the kingdom ready for bible class 101 for a few thousand years.

If we don't know the mechanics of fellowship and that we can be out of fellowship.........sorry, but we probably are out of fellowship.

And In my opinion, In the prodigal son we see both grieving and quenching the Spirit. The older son quenching(with his self righteousness/ Not overt sin, but evil) and the prodigal overt sinning grieving the Spirit.

You can help me out here Freegrace, but God has 4 simple things we need to do or not do as believers.

Do not grieve the Spirit.

Do not quench the Spirit.

Walk in the Spirit.

Be filled with the Spirit.

These are within His bounds. If we have no clue about these perimeters, and don't recognize what we need to do........we are not in His bounds. And that may be very disappointing to someone who lived their whole life trying to clean up the old man, did many wonderful things in life and even got their sinning down to a minimum........But they were never in His bounds.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 17, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Because of
Why is DT 28 not for believers, but isaiah 1 is?

Never said Dt 28 is "not for believers". It is clearly for the nation of Israel. For God to bless His chosen nation, they must obey. Simple as that.

What criteria do you use to establish that?

Obviousness.

This the relevance of Ephesians 3:6.
Because of Christ's obedience, He should have been blessed, but He was not. He was cursed.
Because we are in Christ through the Gospel, we get the blessing Christ should have got.

Are you still of the opinion that God's children won't be disciplined?

Yes. He doesn't punish a righteous person for sin.

Where are the scissors? I need to cut Heb 12 out of my Bible then.

I am very aware of James 5:16 and the verses preceding it.
If God put a sickness on you, why would you want to get healed and so get out of God's will?

The question is WHY God gave you a sickness. To get your attention, that's why.

Did you know that Christ had to go through discipline to grow in grace?

I strongly disagree. He learned through obedience. Discipline is to get one to obey.

Jesus didn't need to be disciplined in order to obey. That verges on blasphemy, imo.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Does this refer to a spanking, like human children are supposed to get?

No, this refers to the cross. He was obedient, even to death on a cross.

Phil 2:8 - And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

In no way is this discipline.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

He did it because He never sinned. So He never needed discipline.

Not at all. The thing I know is my sin has been cast away as far as the East is from the West and God doesn't deal with based on my sin. Psalms 103

This fails to discern the difference between forensic forgiveness, per Acts 10:43 and fellowship forgiveness for the purpose of cleansing.

That verse is for unbelievers.

I'm sorry you think that. 1 John is for believers; all of it. And ch 1 is all about fellowship. No unbeliever can have fellowship with God. Only believers can, but only when they have been cleansed of their on-going sin.

Before becoming a child of God, you must admit/confess you are a sinner.

True, but 1 John 1:9 isn't about that.

If you read on through chapter 2 John says
My little children these things I write unto you, that you sin not. Clearly admitting believers sin.
And if any sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. Note that he does not say refer back to 1:9.

No need to. Ch 2 is in the same context as ch 1.

The idea that we are in any way separated from God because of a sin is just a horrible doctrine that puts people under condemnation.

Did you miss that I said separated in the sense of fellowship??

Consider a marriage. Can the couple be "out of fellowship" with each other, even if only 1 was offensive to the other? Of course. Should be easy to see.

Even though out of fellowship with each other, are they still married? Of course.

Why can't you apply that to our relationship with our Heavenly Father?

I forget; are you a Calvinist?

What you need to do is get acquainted with Hebres 12. Sooner than later.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 17, 2018

Doug,

I have an example for you that just came by me today. There's a guy who used to attend SS and church regularly, but over this past spring and summer hasn't attended much at all. Maybe twice.

Instead, he takes the family to amusement parks, camping, etc over the weekends.

Today he noted on FB how recently his days seem like "an uphill battle".

Do you suppose any of this could involve God working to get his attention?

Doug Melven · Aug 17, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
So what say you about the prodigal son? It probably paints the most vivid picture for us for the doctrine of fellowship. 1 John 1:9 is 'coming to our senses' and going back to the Father......who has open arms and welcomes us back.........Because we are His son's that are no longer under condemnation.

The Prodigal son is one of my favorite stories.
When he came back he had a speech already prepared, but he didn't get a chance to speak it because the father couldn't wait to bless him.
And after he came back he was in a better state than he was in before.
From the son's point of view he was out of fellowship.
But the father, who saw him a long way off, implying he was waiting for him.

The fact is, we have boldness and access with confidence because of Jesus Christ, not our conduct or confession of sin or anything like that.

Remember, I am not talking about unbelievers here, but about His children.

Doug Melven · Aug 17, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
In my study Bible, the title above Deut 28:1-14 is: "promise of blessings for obedience".
Above v.15-to end of chapter is the title: "promise of curses for disobedience".

This indicates that God promised the JEWS, (not specifically addressed to future NT believers), these promises. When they obeyed, God blessed them. When they rebelled, He disciplined them, including sickness, physical death and loss of nationhood.

FreeGrace2 said:
Never said Dt 28 is "not for believers". It is clearly for the nation of Israel. For God to bless His chosen nation, they must obey. Simple as that.

The quote above says what you say you didn't say.

FreeGrace2 said:
Obviousness

2 different passages written to the same people, "Obviousness" says one can be applied to non Jews but the other can't?
That obviously doesn't work.

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you still of the opinion that God's children won't be disciplined?

Of course God disciplines. If He doesn't discipline then they are not sons.
So, if Christ was not disciplined, how then was He not a Son?
I think you are mixing up discipline and punishment.

FreeGrace2 said:
Where are the scissors? I need to cut Heb 12 out of my Bible then.

Why, just change your concept of discipline to training instead of punishment.

FreeGrace2 said:
The question is WHY God gave you a sickness. To get your attention, that's why.

Isaiah 30:20-21 says that you will hear a voice behind you saying this is the way, walk in it.
God can speak to us in our dreams, or whatever. He does not need to give sickness.
What kind of parent puts sickness on there child to get there attention?

FreeGrace2 said:
I strongly disagree. He learned through obedience. Discipline is to get one to obey.

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

That verse says Jesus learned obedience.
This is the first definition for the word discipline.
the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.

Note that it doesn't have to be punishment, but training. Just like paidea

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm sorry you think that. 1 John is for believers; all of it. And ch 1 is all about fellowship. No unbeliever can have fellowship with God. Only believers can, but only when they have been cleansed of their on-going sin.

The problem with that theology it denies Jesus Christ putting away sin.
You are still of the belief that God deals with you based on your sin.
Psalms 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

FreeGrace2 said:
I forget; are you a Calvinist?[/QUOTE
What's with the insult? I have not insulted you.

Doug Melven · Aug 17, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Doug,

I have an example for you that just came by me today. There's a guy who used to attend SS and church regularly, but over this past spring and summer hasn't attended much at all. Maybe twice.

Instead, he takes the family to amusement parks, camping, etc over the weekends.

Today he noted on FB how recently his days seem like "an uphill battle".

Do you suppose any of this could involve God working to get his attention?

God has the best plan for us and the way of the transgressor is hard.
If someone tries to do things there own way, of course things will be difficult.
When a parent tells a child to dress properly because it is cold and raining outside, but they decide to do there own thing and then they get sick. Did the parent put a sickness on them?

When a wise person gives good advice on how to build something, but the fool thinks they know better and they decide to do it there way and nothing seems to work.
Did the wise person make things difficult for them?

The obvious answer to both questions is no.
If we would do things God's way, we would be a lot happier.
But, when we decide to do things our own way, the odds are that we will be in misery. Or an uphill battle like your FB friend.

The child who goes out in the rain improperly dressed won't always get sick.
And sometimes when we do things disregarding good advice that sometimes things still work out for us.

Doug Melven · Aug 17, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Why can't you apply that to our relationship with our Heavenly Father?

Let me tell you why I believe this doctrine of broken fellowship is so heinous.
When I got saved in 81 I was taught this doctrine and believed it and even taught it to others.
The problem came in when I saw the holiness of God and saw just how much I sinned.
I tried to keep all of my sins confessed so my fellowship wouldn't be broken for long.
This was quite tiring, I couldn't do it. So I started to wait to confess, this made things worse. But I couldn't go back to keeping short accounts with God.
So things got worse and worse for me.
Finally, I told God if I fell again I wasn't getting back up. I couldn't do the roller coaster Christian life, and I felt like such a hypocrite.
It was shortly after that that I fell and stayed down.
Fast forward about 25 years till April of 08, now I am sitting in a jail cell looking at 4 1/2 to 20 years in prison. Of which I actually did 58 months.
While sitting in that cell I was reading a New Testament and God told me it was time to get back up. I told Him I couldn't. He told me I could do all things through Christ. So I said OK God and rededicated my life to Christ.
Then talking to someone else about this very topic, he shared with me that the broken fellowship doctrine was false.
And once I saw the truth of what he was saying I was set free.
I have fallen since, but now I know that there is no change in my status with God whatsoever.
Because I am in Christ I am beloved.
And you want me to go back to that doctrine. I will fight that heinous doctrine with every thing I have.

I see only a difference of degree in the doctrine of when you sin you lose salvation or fellowship.
Fill in the blank.
When you sin you lose _______. Insert either fellowship or salvation.
It is just a matter of degrees, either way you lose. Pun intended.
The truth is when you sin your relationship with God is unchanged. Either you are His child and He is delighted with you or you are not His child and still His enemy. There is nothing in between, no gray areas.

Anything that happens because of sin does not come from God but the sin itself.

Gr8Grace · Aug 17, 2018

Doug Melven said:
The Prodigal son is one of my favorite stories.
When he came back he had a speech already prepared, but he didn't get a chance to speak it because the father couldn't wait to bless him.

Agreed. All the son had to do was acknowledge his sin to the Father. The Father cut off the pity party,guilt aspect of the sons prepared speech. Because we ARE guiltless.

Doug Melven said:
And after he came back he was in a better state than he was in before.

Right , because he acknowledged( 1 John 1:9) His sin against his Father.

Doug Melven said:
From the son's point of view he was out of fellowship.

From the Fathers point of view also. Our Father is ALWAYS standing there looking for us to come back to Him. But He does not have personal fellowship with us until we come back(1 John 1:9.)

Doug Melven said:
The fact is, we have boldness and access with confidence because of Jesus Christ, not our conduct or confession of sin or anything like that.

Agreed.....BUT, if we are grieving or quenching the Spirit we WILL forget this promise. If we are outside of His plan for us, deception comes in very quickly. We forget about what we do have. and start to doubt His promises to us. This is why 1 John 1:9 is very critical for us. We will soon forget His promises to us if we live outside of His plan for us.

Doug Melven said:
Remember, I am not talking about unbelievers here, but about His children.

So am I.

Doug Melven · Aug 17, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
Agreed. All the son had to do was acknowledge his sin to the Father. The Father cut off the pity party,guilt aspect of the sons prepared speech. Because we ARE guiltless.

You should check the sequence of events.
Son prepares speech.
Goes back to give speech.
Father sees him a long way off, runs to him, falls on his neck and kisses him.
Son starts speech.
But the father talks to the servants.

Your use of 1 John 1:9 is totally out of context in this scenario.
For it to be as you say, the father should have waited for the confession before running to him.

Our having fellowship is because we acknowledged we were sinners and accepted Christ.
The Greek word for fellowship is koinonia, same as communion. G2842
Having this partnership is not because of anything we have done, but because of what Jesus Christ.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2018

Doug Melven said:
The Prodigal son is one of my favorite stories.

Ditto here.

When he came back he had a speech already prepared, but he didn't get a chance to speak it because the father couldn't wait to bless him.

And the parable wasnt about discipline anyway.

And many times God doesn't have to discipline, since the bad choices themselves cause self-induced misery. Which we see in the parable.

And after he came back he was in a better state than he was in before.

Yes. He "came to his senses". That's always a better state of mind.

From the son's point of view he was out of fellowship.
But the father, who saw him a long way off, implying he was waiting for him.

Check and check.

The fact is, we have boldness and access with confidence because of Jesus Christ, not our conduct or confession of sin or anything like that.

You are still missing the facts of Heb 12.

Remember, I am not talking about unbelievers here, but about His children.

As am I.

On-going confession and repentance for believers is the bulk of spiritual life.

I can't imagine what it is to you.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2018

Doug Melven said:
God has the best plan for us and the way of the transgressor is hard.

And why is that? 2 reasons. One is self induced misery from bad choices. The other is God's hand of discipline.

If we would do things God's way, we would be a lot happier.
But, when we decide to do things our own way, the odds are that we will be in misery. Or an uphill battle like your FB friend.

You are free to reject the fact that God spanks His wayward children.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Let me tell you why I believe this doctrine of broken fellowship is so heinous.

From your post here, what's heinous is the poor way you were taught the doctrine.

When I got saved in 81 I was taught this doctrine and believed it and even taught it to others.
The problem came in when I saw the holiness of God and saw just how much I sinned.
I tried to keep all of my sins confessed so my fellowship wouldn't be broken for long.
This was quite tiring, I couldn't do it. So I started to wait to confess, this made things worse. But I couldn't go back to keeping short accounts with God.
So things got worse and worse for me.
Finally, I told God if I fell again I wasn't getting back up. I couldn't do the roller coaster Christian life, and I felt like such a hypocrite.
It was shortly after that that I fell and stayed down.
Fast forward about 25 years till April of 08, now I am sitting in a jail cell looking at 4 1/2 to 20 years in prison. Of which I actually did 58 months.
While sitting in that cell I was reading a New Testament and God told me it was time to get back up. I told Him I couldn't. He told me I could do all things through Christ. So I said OK God and rededicated my life to Christ.
Then talking to someone else about this very topic, he shared with me that the broken fellowship doctrine was false.
And once I saw the truth of what he was saying I was set free.
I have fallen since, but now I know that there is no change in my status with God whatsoever.
Because I am in Christ I am beloved.

I have to ask; what about your "falls". Still doing that? And what is the consequence?

And why do you blame your poor application of a doctrine on your failures?

And you want me to go back to that doctrine. I will fight that heinous doctrine with every thing I have.

What you're really fighting is a heinous application of truth.

I see only a difference of degree in the doctrine of when you sin you lose salvation or fellowship.
Fill in the blank.
When you sin you lose _______. Insert either fellowship or salvation.
It is just a matter of degrees, either way you lose. Pun intended.

So sad. Again, you've been poorly taught, at least.

The truth is when you sin your relationship with God is unchanged.

What you have missed is that I fully AGREE with this. This is eternal security. The relationship is sealed and forever. Period.

But you've ignored all my examples and avoided addressing any of them.

In a parent-child relationship (which is permanent), do you think there is no possibility of fellowship being broken between parent and child?

Either you are His child and He is delighted with you or you are not His child and still His enemy. There is nothing in between, no gray areas.

This is your own opinion and without any biblical evidence.

Here is evidence for my view from Scripture in 1 Cor 10-
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

These verses establishes that the Exodus generation were all saved. How can anyone argue that v.4 doesn't establish that fact?

Then, the very next verse:
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

There it is; God's children displeased God. The result was sin unto death.

6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.

Now v.6 clinches that this is about believers, saved people.

How can one make any comparison between saved and unsaved people regarding being an "example"? That doesn't make sense.

Anything that happens because of sin does not come from God but the sin itself.

Well, just keep ignoring Hebrews 12 then.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2018

Doug Melven said:
You should check the sequence of events.
Son prepares speech.
Goes back to give speech.
Father sees him a long way off, runs to him, falls on his neck and kisses him.
Son starts speech.
But the father talks to the servants.

You have failed to discern WHEN the father cuts off the speech. He lets the son confess his sin. It was WHEN the son was next going to tell the father about his unworthiness and asking to be demoted to servant. Nonsense. Kinda like, because of my sin, and my unworthiness to be your son, just make me a servant.

Jesus would have no part of that silliness. That's why the father cut him off exactly where he did.

Your use of 1 John 1:9 is totally out of context in this scenario.

You, sir, are totally out of line. Even King David had to confess his sins before God removed his discipline.

Here is what David suffered while out of fellowship with God after his huge sins:
Psa 32:3-5
3 When I kept silent, (lack of confession) my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. [sound like weakness or sickness??
4 For day and night your hand was heavy on me; my strength was sapped as in the heat of summer. [there it is; weakness]
5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you (confession) and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD.” And you forgave the guilt of my sin.

Do you now see how your views are not in line with Scripture?

For it to be as you say, the father should have waited for the confession before running to him.

No, Jesus was pointing out God's grace.

Our having fellowship is because we acknowledged we were sinners and accepted Christ.

Go back to Psa 32.

Doug Melven · Aug 18, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
On-going confession and repentance for believers is the bulk of spiritual life.

I can't imagine what it is to you.

Apparaently you don't grasp what is meant by our sin being put away, not being imputed to us and the fact that by Jesus Christ's sacrifice we have a clear conscience, not a sin conscience. Hebrews 9:26-10:3

FreeGrace2 said:
And why is that? 2 reasons. One is self induced misery from bad choices. The other is God's hand of discipline.

Trust in the LORD with al your heart, lean not on your own understanding, acknowledge Him in all your ways and He will direct your paths. Proverbs 3:5-6
Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. Psalms 16:11
Jesus said I am come that they might have life and have it more abundantly. John 10:10

This the life that God wants for us.
He does not want us going through misery, and He certainly is not going to be the cause of it.
God spanking His children does not include sickness.
Can you imagine how painful it will be when you see the Truth and you have to change what you believe on a subject?

FreeGrace2 said:
You are free to reject the fact that God spanks His wayward children.

Yes, I freely reject false doctrine.

FreeGrace2 said:
From your post here, what's heinous is the poor way you were taught the doctrine.

It does not matter the way it is taught. You still have a barrier between you and God.
Because of Jesus Christ''s sacrifice there is no barrier, no matter how small, between me and God.

FreeGrace2 said:
And why do you blame your poor application of a doctrine on your failures?

I don't blame the poor application, I blame the doctrine itself. It is a doctrine of condemnation.
Any person who thinks they can confess every sin they commit is deceived.
When you get a revelation of how holy God is, you will be like Isaiah when He got a vision of God in His temple.
All he could do was cry out, "Woe is me, I am undone".

FreeGrace2 said:
In a parent-child relationship (which is permanent), do you think there is no possibility of fellowship being broken between parent and child?

Only from the child's point of view, not the parent.
I can't imagine a parent requiring there child to confess there sin to restoring fellowship.
From the parent's side, nothing was ever broken.
If there was a parent like that, they are not an example of God's love.

FreeGrace2 said:
How can one make any comparison between saved and unsaved people regarding being an "example"? That doesn't make sense.

Because God was not pleased with them, what did they not have? Hebrews 3;19, 11:6

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, just keep ignoring Hebrews 12 then.

I ignore nothing. But you have not shown God's discipline is sickness. And God does not punish His children.

FreeGrace2 said:
You, sir, are totally out of line.[/QUOTE
We both were involved in a thread that got locked for this type of talk. There is no need for it.

Doug Melven · Aug 18, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
ou have failed to discern WHEN the father cuts off the speech. He lets the son confess his sin. It was WHEN the son was next going to tell the father about his unworthiness and asking to be demoted to servant. Nonsense. Kinda like, because of my sin, and my unworthiness to be your son, just make me a servant.

No, I didn't.
The son said I have sinned.
But the Father said to the servants.

The father wasn't even listening to the confession. His son had come home.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Apparaently you don't grasp what is meant by our sin being put away, not being imputed to us and the fact that by Jesus Christ's sacrifice we have a clear conscience, not a sin conscience. Hebrews 9:26-10:3

It HAS been put away in the fact that we won't be judged for it. That's what that means.

But you continue to fail to grasp that sin soils us, and we need cleansing, just as feet washing was FUNCTIONAL in Jesus' day, since everyone walked the same paths as the animals, and no one wanted to track animal poo into a house or business. So they washed their feet.

Do you really think you can track dog poo into a friend's house and expect fellowship with your friend? No. And in the same way, sin offends our Heavenly Father even more than your filthy shoe in your friend's house.

So we need to have our "feet washed", a metaphor for confession.

God spanking His children does not include sickness.

Not only do you NOT have any evidence from Scripture to support your claim, but 1 Cor 11:30 and Psa 32 directly refute your claim.

Can you imagine how painful it will be when you see the Truth and you have to change what you believe on a subject?

What kind of pain?

Yes, I freely reject false doctrine.

What you reject is clear Scripture.

It does not matter the way it is taught.

This is absurd. Of course it matters. When a principle or doctrine is taught WRONG, it's just that; wrong.

You still have a barrier between you and God.
Because of Jesus Christ''s sacrifice there is no barrier, no matter how small, between me and God.

You simply fail to discern between the permanent relationship with God and the conditional fellowship with God.

But the prodigal parable is a clear example. As is Heb 12:11 and Psa 32.

I don't blame the poor application, I blame the doctrine itself. It is a doctrine of condemnation.

Nonsense. Being out of fellowship because of sin, which is offensive to God more than your filthy shoe with dog poo all over the sole, isn't even close to "condemnation".

Any person who thinks they can confess every sin they commit is deceived.

And I AGREE with you on this. Of course that's true.

And that is precisely WHY we have been given 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Please notice the words "purify us from all unrighteousness". By confessing our sins, we are forgiven of them, and cleansed (purified) from those sins we know about (all unrighteousness).

When you get a revelation of how holy God is, you will be like Isaiah when He got a vision of God in His temple.
All he could do was cry out, "Woe is me, I am undone".

What is this all mean to you?

What do you do when you sin? Just shrug your shoulders and say "whatever"?

Only from the child's point of view, not the parent.
I can't imagine a parent requiring there child to confess there sin to restoring fellowship.

Are you serious? How do you think fellowship is restored? Or you you even grasp the necessary need for restoration?

I suppose, given this attitude, if you did track dog poo into a friend's house, and the friend told you your shoe was highly offensive and to take the shoe outside, all you'd do is claim something about being friends, and that just isn't necessary. No apology, etc.

From the parent's side, nothing was ever broken.

This is naive beyond beief.

If there was a parent like that, they are not an example of God's love.

Incredible naivety.

I ignore nothing.

Then put on your big boy pants and explain Heb 12:11, Psa 32.

But you have not shown God's discipline is sickness

Here's where you ARE ignoring God's word. 1 Cor 11:30, Psa 32.

btw, I never said that's all God uses for discipline.

And God does not punish His children.

That would be a very slack and poor parent.

But go ahead and ignore Hebrews 12-
God Disciplines His Children
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?
8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.
9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live!
10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.
11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

The Greek word for "discipline" is 'paideia', and translated in the KJV as "chastening".

Here's what https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/chastisement says:

Chastisement is the same as punishment.

Or how about this website:
http://www.yourdictionary.com/chastisement

(plural chastisements)

The act of chastising.
A rebuke.
A punishment.

So there you go.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2018

Doug Melven said:
No, I didn't.
The son said I have sinned.
But the Father said to the servants.

Let's look at the actual text:
18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’

v.18 is his planned confession. v.19 is what else he intended to say, which was nonsense. A son cannot be "demoted" to a servant. Once a son, ALWAYS a son. Period.

Now, the rest of the context:
21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.

v.21 is the actual confession to his father. v.22 stops FURTHER blabber from the son.

The father wasn't even listening to the confession. His son had come home.

Is that what Jesus said? Of course not. You are speculating.

So you still see no need of confession, is that right?

Doug Melven · Aug 18, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
It HAS been put away in the fact that we won't be judged for it. That's what that means.

If we won't be judged for it, why do you say God is the one judging and punishing for sin in 1 Cor 11:30?

FreeGrace2 said:
But you continue to fail to grasp that sin soils us, and we need cleansing, just as feet washing was FUNCTIONAL in Jesus' day, since everyone walked the same paths as the animals, and no one wanted to track animal poo into a house or business. So they washed their feet.

I do not. I know I commit sin. But it does not change anything between me and God.

FreeGrace2 said:
Not only do you NOT have any evidence from Scripture to support your claim, but 1 Cor 11:30 and Psa 32 directly refute your claim.

There is no sickness in Psa 32. His Hand being heavy on me does not amount to sickness.

FreeGrace2 said:
What kind of pain?

When you realize the Truth and you have to apologize to those you have offended with this doctrine you will find out.

FreeGrace2 said:
This is absurd. Of course it matters. When a principle or doctrine is taught WRONG, it's just that; wrong.

There is no right way to teach a false doctrine. Your doctrine puts a barrier between you and God.

FreeGrace2 said:
You simply fail to discern between the permanent relationship with God and the conditional fellowship with God.

My fellowship with Christ is based on what Jesus Christ has done. He is my Advocate when I sin.

FreeGrace2 said:
And I AGREE with you on this. Of course that's true.

And that is precisely WHY we have been given 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

This needs to be read in context with the following chapter.
If we sin we have an Advocate with the Father, and He continually prays for us.

FreeGrace2 said:
What do you do when you sin? Just shrug your shoulders and say "whatever"?

No, I thank God every time that He has forgiven me.

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you serious? How do you think fellowship is restored?

Should not have been broken.
I am going to unwatch this thread as you are getting to testy. I don't think it will be long before you call me a heretic.
Good bye.

1 Thess 5:4-10 teaches eternal security

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