Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

mkgal1 · Aug 16, 2018

DavidPT said:
I can't say I'm on the same page with you here, but it seems to me, at least this interpretation acknowledges that the 'it' in Daniel 9:27 is connected and referring to the ceasing sacrifice and oblation.

Right......"connected to the ceasing sacrifice and oblation"....but, as I understand it, the "it" that is desolate (empty and meaningless) is the Temple. Christ dying on the cross did render the Temple empty during the 70th week (until consummation, as the text states).

DavidPT said:
But this interpretation still has parts not involving the 70th week itself, since you indicated some of it might be referring to what happened to the temple eventually.

See above. It does. Christ died in the middle (the midst) of the 70th week.....3 1/2 years still remained, which was a grace period for the Israelites and was included in the 7 year period, and Stephen's sermon was rejected all in that 70th week. The Temple destruction was foretold in Daniel 9....and Christ fulfilled all that was necessary within that time frame prophesied (the way I see it).

mkgal1 · Aug 16, 2018

DavidPT said:
I conclude what I do because that's what the texts involved lead me to conclude, right or wrong.

But how is it 490 years determined for God's people then? What is causing the clock to stop - so to speak.....why would it be broken up, yet still called 70 weeks? Besides that.....Jesus said ALL the prophecies would be fulfilled in Him.

DavidPT · Aug 16, 2018

mkgal1 said:
But how is it 490 years determined for God's people then? What is causing the clock to stop - so to speak.....why would it be broken up, yet still called 70 weeks? Besides that.....Jesus said ALL the prophecies would be fulfilled in Him.

Look at the following prophecy.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Maybe you don't take any of this to involve endtimes and the 2nd coming, but I do. In the event I am correct to do so, how can these things not involve the church? How can these things not involve the saints per Revelation 13? How can those saints in Revelation 13 not be meaning the Church? The point I'm getting at, during Daniel's day, his people would have been understood to be meaning only the Jews like himself. But if Daniel 12:1 involves endtimes, that means the church is hidden in this passage, but has been made light of via the first coming and the NT. So Daniel's people meant here would have to include others besides just the Jews. It would have to include Gentiles grafted into the good olive tree. Some wrongly define this as replacement theology. But no one is being replaced though. Gentiles are being added, not replacing anyone instead.

jgr · Aug 16, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Sorry. I need an explanation.

ETA: Oh! Do you mean in the Orthodox church history timeline? There has been no reformation in the Orthodox Church.

Thanks. I knew that there was no Reformation in the Orthodox Church, but thought I might see it included in recognition of its significance in general Christian Church history. But no problem, there still was a Reformation, and we're all still its spiritual beneficiaries.

jgr · Aug 16, 2018

DavidPT said:
I guess the odd thing in my case, I'm neither Pretrib nor a Dispensationalist, yet I, too, conclude there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week. But I don't conclude that bcause I need to make it fit with theories I might hold to, such as if I were Pretrib and or a Dispensationalist. I conclude what I do because that's what the texts involved lead me to conclude, right or wrong.

The Hebrew root word for "determined" in Daniel 9:24 is "chathak".

In Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

chathak
determine
A primitive root; properly, to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree -- determine.

Which is to say, "Seventy weeks are cut off..."

But if there's a gap, then it's "Sixty-nine weeks are cut off..." followed at some indeterminate time by "One week is cut off..."

Which is not what the prophecy declares or implies.

DavidPT · Aug 17, 2018

jgr said:
The Hebrew root word for "determined" in Daniel 9:24 is "chathak".

In Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

chathak
determine
A primitive root; properly, to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree -- determine.

Which is to say, "Seventy weeks are cut off..."

But if there's a gap, then it's "Sixty-nine weeks are cut off..." followed at some indeterminate time by "One week is cut off..."

Which is not what the prophecy declares or implies.

Can't say I'm exactly grasping your point, so in the meantime what about the following?

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression

and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness---if all these things were fulfilled at 69.5 weeks---

and to anoint the most Holy----and if this was fulfilled prior to 69.5 weeks, why are 70 weeks then determined, when it looks like to me, per this interpretation, it was 69.5 weeks that were determined instead? What in the list of things in verse 24 needed the entire 70 weeks to finish first if everything in that verse was fulfilled by the middle of the 70th week instead?

mkgal1 · Aug 17, 2018

Did you miss post #1048, David?

DavidPT · Aug 17, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Did you miss post #1048, David?

Either I did, or if I didn't instead, apparently what was in that post must have slipped my mind then. So I guess I should go look at that post then, regardless.

DavidPT · Aug 17, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Did you miss post #1048, David?

I looked at that post again, and do recall seeing and reading it earlier. So what exactly in that post would have to do with any of the things listed in verse 24 of Daniel 9?

I haven't checked out that timeline as held by the Orthodox church though, so maybe that answers some of my questions?

DavidPT · Aug 17, 2018

Another point I have brought up numerous times in the past.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Assuming no gaps here, this should place the fulfilling of this 70 weeks at least 40 years prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. That would mean what has been determined upon Jerusalem, the transgression is finished. So why is Jerusalem then destroyed after the transgression concerning it is finished? How is one to make sense out of that?

mkgal1 · Aug 17, 2018

DavidPT said:
Look at the following prophecy.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

I honestly haven't taken the time recently to revisit this prophecy (so I'm not sure my stance on it). If it *does* relate to the "great tribulation" then I do believe I'm of the belief that already occurred and this is NOT about His second coming.

DavidPT said:
The point I'm getting at, during Daniel's day, his people would have been understood to be meaning only the Jews like himself. But if Daniel 12:1 involves endtimes, that means the church is hidden in this passage, but has been made light of via the first coming and the NT. So Daniel's people meant here would have to include others besides just the Jews.

If this is all related to the Destruction of the Temple, then there's no reason to see "Daniel's people" anything other than the Israelites.

mkgal1 · Aug 17, 2018

DavidPT said:
Assuming no gaps here, this should place the fulfilling of this 70 weeks at least 40 years prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. That would mean what has been determined upon Jerusalem, the transgression is finished. So why is Jerusalem then destroyed after the transgression concerning it is finished? How is one to make sense out of that?

That's unknown (as far as I understand). It's been hypothesized that it was God's grace that gave them the extra 40 or so years to repent.

mkgal1 · Aug 17, 2018

DavidPT said:
if all these things were fulfilled at 69.5 weeks---

and to anoint the most Holy----and if this was fulfilled prior to 69.5 weeks, why are 70 weeks then determined, when it looks like to me, per this interpretation, it was 69.5 weeks that were determined instead? What in the list of things in verse 24 needed the entire 70 weeks to finish first if everything in that verse was fulfilled by the middle of the 70th week instead?

Everything *wasn't* fulfilled by the middle of the 70th week, though.....there was still time running on the clock. This was the time God gave the Israelites to turn towards Him - to recognize Him as their prophesied Messiah.

DavidPT · Aug 17, 2018

mkgal1 said:
If this is all related to the Destruction of the Temple, then there's no reason to see "Daniel's people" anything other than the Israelites.

I fully agree if that were the case. But how can Daniel 12:1 possibly involve the destruction of the temple in the first century though?

DavidPT · Aug 17, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Everything *wasn't* fulfilled by the middle of the 70th week, though.....there was still time running on the clock. This was the time God gave the Israelites to turn towards Him - to recognize Him as their prophesied Messiah.

Verse 24 is what is in question here. What in verse 24 of Daniel 9 would not have been fulfilled by the middle of the 70th week? This of course assuming there are no gaps in the 70 weeks?

mkgal1 · Aug 17, 2018

Something else about the timing.....

Quoting Larry Wilson ------>God's calendar establishing a seven year cycle and a Sabbatical year was instituted at the time of the Exodus. He developed this new dating system by giving Moses a new calendar, specifically stating to Moses when the first month and the first day of the new year was to begin. (Exodus 12:1-3)

Previously, the Israelites had observed the Egyptian calendar, in which the year began in July with the first appearing of the star, Sirius. However, the new calendar God gave to Moses began in March with the first full moon after the Spring equinox.

This new calendar was based on a pattern or template of the weekly cycle that God established at Creation. (Genesis 2:1,2; Leviticus 25:1-10) Simply put, God used each day of the week to represent a year. Thus, years were measured in units of seven (heptads) and units of 49 years (Jubilee Cycles) much like we reckon years today in units of ten (decades) and units of 100 years (centuries).

Three months after the Exodus, while the Children of Israel were in the desert, God gave Moses instructions about the land of Canaan. God required a Sabbath year’s rest for the “promised” land every seventh year. Here is the text:

“[Moses,] Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you, the land itself must observe a sabbath to the Lord. For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops. But in the seventh year the land is to have a sabbath of rest, a sabbath to the Lord. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards. Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the grapes of your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest. Whatever the land yields during the sabbath year will be food for you — for yourself, your manservant and maidservant, and the hired worker and temporary resident who live among you, as well as for your livestock and the wild animals in your land. Whatever the land produces may be eaten.” (Leviticus 25:2-7)

Notice that God speaks of a seven year cycle and the seventh year is clearly called a Sabbath of rest, a Sabbath to the Lord (verse 4). Also, notice two more points about the Sabbath rest for the land. First, the Sabbath rest had nothing to do with agricultural improvement since the largest harvest was during the sixth year, at the end of the growing cycle. (Leviticus 25:20-22)

God did not establish a Sabbath rest for the land for the sake of the land. No, God designed a Sabbath rest for the land to test the faith of an agricultural nation every seven years. Would they obey Him or not? (Compare this with Exodus 16:4.) In fact, the Sabbatical year test only revealed whether or not the nation was actually in touch with God. ~ Article

mkgal1 · Aug 17, 2018

DavidPT said:
Verse 24 is what is in question here. What in verse 24 of Daniel 9 would not have been fulfilled by the middle of the 70th week? This of course assuming there are no gaps in the 70 weeks?

I think you're misunderstanding me. This checklist isn't something to be completed early - it's based on the seven-year cycle God had developed for them. The "sealing up the vision and prophecy" doesn't happen until 490 years are up. IOW....the main emphasis is on the timing....not just the events.

The Israelites last chance was when Stephen said all this to them & they rejected the Holy Spirit yet again (which is recorded as happening in 34 A.D. - which marked the end of the 490 years):

Stephen"s sermon:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+7&version=NRSVA

The decree to rebuild the Temple was the starting point (457 A.D.) ---------> 490 years later = 34 A.D.

mkgal1 · Aug 18, 2018

I am still reading about this, and found that this is what the Greek Orthodox Study Bible states:

Quoting Greek Orthodox Study Bible----------->"The Epistle of Barnabas observes that this passage was fulfilled when the temple (the sanctuary, v. 26) was destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70. But Barnabas also points out that a true temple remains, the Body of Christ, a spiritual temple in which God truly dwells. Seventy weeks is interpreted to mean seventy weeks of years, or 490 years (seventy times seven years). This prophecy applies also to Jeremiah's "seventy years" (see Dan. 9:2, Jer. 25:11-12, Jer. 29:10).

According to Hippolytus, Daniel's vision concerned the time when the temple would be rebuilt, as well as the time of the coming of the Messiah. First, the Jews would return and resume sacrifice after seventy years of captivity. "Having mentioned therefore seventy weeks, and having divided them into two parts, in order that what was spoken by him to the prophet might be better understood, he proceeds thus, until Messiah the Prince there shall be seven weeks, which make forty-nine years. It was in the twenty-first year [of Nebuchadnezzar's reign] that Daniel saw these things in Babylon. Hence, the forty-nine years added to the twenty-one, make up the seventy years, of which the blessed Jeremiah spoke" (Jer. 25:11). Second, Jesus the Messiah would be crucified in A.D. 30, about 490 years (seventy weeks) after Artaxerxes commissioned Ezra to rebuild Jerusalem in 458 B.C. (2 Ezra 7:7-8)." End of quote.

Another thing, is to consider Daniel 8:26 that says:

Daniel 8:26 ~ The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true. As for you, seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.’

If the prophecy were to be broken up, wouldn't that have been mentioned? ISTM something would be included like, "some is many days from now....the rest is far off" if there were still a week remaining.

And then I also found this timeline:

mkgal1 · Aug 18, 2018

Switching back to using the AC as the pronoun.....how is "anointing the Holy One" explained? How is the AC holy?

Daniel 9:24 ~ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Biblewriter · Aug 20, 2018

jgr said:
The Hebrew root word for "determined" in Daniel 9:24 is "chathak".

In Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

chathak
determine
A primitive root; properly, to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree -- determine.

Which is to say, "Seventy weeks are cut off..."

But if there's a gap, then it's "Sixty-nine weeks are cut off..." followed at some indeterminate time by "One week is cut off..."

Which is not what the prophecy declares or implies.

You are neglecting the hard fact that nothing in the prophecy says, or even implies, that the seventy weeks are sequential. A statement that they are all determined simply does not even imply that they are sequential. And every Christian writer who commented on this passage at a time close enough to have actual personal knowledge of the historical facts, concluded that the fulfillment of seventieth week had been delayed. Two of them thought it had been delayed until the end times, and one thought it had been delayed until the time of Titus. But All of them saw it as delayed.

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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