1 Thess 5:4-10 teaches eternal security

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Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Now, those who do not believe in eternal security, in spite of Jesus' clear words in John 5:24 and 10:28, respond by claiming that the terms "asleep" and "awake" do not refer to lifestyle, but rather to be understood as being alive or physically dead, because Paul used "asleep" in reference to physical death in 1 Thess 4:13 - Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

However, we get a very clear meaning from Paul in another passage which proves that he was referring to awake as the proper Christian lifestyle of obedience, and asleep as the lifestyle of an unbeliever in a parallel passage in Rom 13-
11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.

13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

Analysis:
v.11 is a command for believers to pay attention, rather than being lazy.
v.12 is a clear comparison to the lifestyle of unbelievers by "deeds of darkness" and to put it aside.
v.13 is a command for proper lifestyle, and uses "daytime", just as he did in 1 Thess 5:5 and 8.
v.14 is a command for being filled with the Spirit and walking by His means, since the command to "not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh" is very nearly the same phrase as found in Gal 5:16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Therefor, 1 Thess 5:10 is a clear statement that regardless of lifestyle, whether awake or asleep, we will live TOGETHER with him.

This is not a defense of antinomian living. In fact, the Bible also addresses God's plan for those children who think they can "get away" with living how they want, doing what they want.

Heb 12:11 says, " No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."

After Paul took the Corinthian congregation to task for abusing the Lord's Table, he wrote 1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Notice the progression? Weakness, then sickness, then physical death.

For those unruly children of God, if they AREN'T "trained by God's discipline", per Heb 12:11, then they WILL experience 1 Cor 11:30.
 

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Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Now, those who do not believe in eternal security, in spite of Jesus' clear words in John 5:24 and 10:28, respond by claiming that the terms "asleep" and "awake" do not refer to lifestyle, but rather to be understood as being alive or physically dead, because Paul used "asleep" in reference to physical death in 1 Thess 4:13 - Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

However, we get a very clear meaning from Paul in another passage which proves that he was referring to awake as the proper Christian lifestyle of obedience, and asleep as the lifestyle of an unbeliever in a parallel passage in Rom 13-
11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.

13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

Analysis:
v.11 is a command for believers to pay attention, rather than being lazy.
v.12 is a clear comparison to the lifestyle of unbelievers by "deeds of darkness" and to put it aside.
v.13 is a command for proper lifestyle, and uses "daytime", just as he did in 1 Thess 5:5 and 8.
v.14 is a command for being filled with the Spirit and walking by His means, since the command to "not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh" is very nearly the same phrase as found in Gal 5:16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Therefor, 1 Thess 5:10 is a clear statement that regardless of lifestyle, whether awake or asleep, we will live TOGETHER with him.

This is not a defense of antinomian living. In fact, the Bible also addresses God's plan for those children who think they can "get away" with living how they want, doing what they want.

Heb 12:11 says, " No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."

After Paul took the Corinthian congregation to task for abusing the Lord's Table, he wrote 1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Notice the progression? Weakness, then sickness, then physical death.

For those unruly children of God, if they AREN'T "trained by God's discipline", per Heb 12:11, then they WILL experience 1 Cor 11:30.
Good point. Some may assume the "sleep" there is referring back to where he used "sleep" to refer to a person who has died, but in fact a different Greek word is used here and along with the context it appears to mean what you're talking about. Here's a commentary I wrote on this section:

Free from Wrath

1Thess 5:9-11 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Christians have no wrath to look forward to. "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" Rom 8:1

There is no punishment for sin, for under the New Covenant not only are sins forgiven but forgotten. "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." Heb 10:16,17

An interesting bit of Exegesis

There's a double meaning in verse 10 of "awake" and "asleep" which Paul may have intended though it may not come out as strongly in the translation. "Awake" is actually the same word translated "alert" in verse 6, and of the 22 times this word is used in the New Testament, only in this case is it translated "awake". The translators assume the Paul was talking about being alive or dead and so translated the word which elsewhere is translated "alert" or "watchful" into the word "awake". But the Thessalonians would have likely read "whether we are alert or asleep".

"Asleep" is the same greek word "sleep" in verse 6 which is a different word than what Paul uses in the previous chapter where he referred to the death of believers. In verse 6 he used the word to refer to "yield to sloth and sin" or "to be indifferent to one's salvation". Though at times it is used to refer to death. (Actually there's a similar double meaning of this word in Eph 5:14)

Thus the context would give the impression to mean that "Eternal life and salvation by Christ does not depend on our watchfulness, so it shall not be hindered by the sleepy, drowsy frame of spirit the children of God sometimes fall into." (John Gill) Though alertness and an enlightened behavior comes naturally to children of God, yet from time to time those born of God sleep, failing to keep alert, and consequently fall into sin. But even so, such will not suffer wrath, because that is the nature of the grace given believers.

The Eternal Security that Paul alludes to here gives us hope. For though the faith that saves is that faith that works, and there are inevitable effects of being born of God, yet Christians are not under the bondage of legalism whereby one must constantly live up to certain standards to obtain or maintain our salvation status, though granted there are other consequences to be concerned about.

And this is an encouraging fact, which is why Paul mentions it. We should all be involved in encouraging and building one another up, following the example of the Thessalonians. If you're not around such Christians, then who will wake you up when you fall asleep? Who will keep you alert? "Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work: If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up!" Ecc 4:9,10 Furthermore "Though one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him. And a threefold cord is not quickly broken." Ecc 4:12
 
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Doug Melven

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This is not a defense of antinomian living. In fact, the Bible also addresses God's plan for those children who think they can "get away" with living how they want, doing what they want.

Heb 12:11 says, " No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."

After Paul took the Corinthian congregation to task for abusing the Lord's Table, he wrote 1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Notice the progression? Weakness, then sickness, then physical death.

For those unruly children of God, if they AREN'T "trained by God's discipline", per Heb 12:11, then they WILL experience 1 Cor 11:30.
I was with you right up to this point.
God does not use weakness, sickness and death to discipline His children.
He uses His Word. 2 Timothy 3:16 says so.
Where the weakness, sickness and death comes in is when Christians stop availing themselves of the life-giving benefits of God's Word and doing there own thing. Proverbs 3:7-8 4:20-22,
 
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St_Worm2

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God does not use weakness, sickness and death to discipline His children.
He uses His Word. 2 Timothy 3:16 says so.
Where the weakness, sickness and death comes in is when Christians stop availing themselves of the life-giving benefits of God's Word and doing there own thing. Proverbs 3:7-8 4:20-22,
Hi Doug, there is this to consider from St. Paul as well.

2 Corinthians 12
7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!
8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.
9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

Knowing how much the old man tends to raise its ugly head in the daily lives of every saint, it seems to me that God will use the fittest means at His disposal to grow us up in Christ, which certainly includes regularly reminding us of our need to keep our eyes off of the abundance of lusts and distractions that this world has to offer us, and to keep them on Him and on our future lives with Him instead.

Yours and His,
David

Instead of a river, God often gives us a brook, which may be running
today and dried up tomorrow. Why? To teach us not to rest
in our blessings, but in the Blesser Himself.
~Arthur W. Pink~

 
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sdowney717

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I was with you right up to this point.
God does not use weakness, sickness and death to discipline His children.
He uses His Word. 2 Timothy 3:16 says so.
Where the weakness, sickness and death comes in is when Christians stop availing themselves of the life-giving benefits of God's Word and doing there own thing. Proverbs 3:7-8 4:20-22,

Well God does, He did that with the sin of these Corinthians, so that they would not be judged along with the world, as v30-32 so says.

18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.


33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.
 
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Doug Melven

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a messenger of Satan to torment me
I am curious how you missed this. This thorn was not from God. It was from Satan.

Well God does, He did that with the sin of these Corinthians,
Did you just ignore the Scriptures I cited?
If we avail ourselves of the life giving benefits of God's Word we won't be weak sickly and prematurely die from sickness. Please study Proverbs 3:7-8, 4:20-22

How can people believe God giving somebody a sickness is a good thing?
If this were a good way to train children, earthly parents would use it to train there children. Wouldn't godly parents want to train there children the way God trains/disciplines His children.
 
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St_Worm2

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I am curious how you missed this. This thorn was not from God. It was from Satan.
Hi again Doug, God used Satan to deliver the "thorn" (whatever it was) to Paul, as it was God, not Satan, who intended that he be humbled by it (to keep him from exalting himself). It was also God who thrice refused to remove it when Paul asked Him to saying, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.”

Yours and His,
David

"I have learned to kiss the waves that throw
me up against the Rock of Ages"

~Charles Spurgeon~

 
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sdowney717

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I am curious how you missed this. This thorn was not from God. It was from Satan.


Did you just ignore the Scriptures I cited?
If we avail ourselves of the life giving benefits of God's Word we won't be weak sickly and prematurely die from sickness. Please study Proverbs 3:7-8, 4:20-22

How can people believe God giving somebody a sickness is a good thing?
If this were a good way to train children, earthly parents would use it to train there children. Wouldn't godly parents want to train there children the way God trains/disciplines His children.

What you posted makes no matter, as what I posted shows that God uses sickness and death of His people as chastisement.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (died)

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (so they were saved)

God judged them!
God used sickness and death in the case to discipline (chastise) His people so that they would NOT be condemned along with the world.

Here is another, sin unto death. That would be not spiritual death. But God taking them out to be judged quicker than if they died a more natural death, the Lord will judge His people.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I was with you right up to this point.
God does not use weakness, sickness and death to discipline His children.
He uses His Word. 2 Timothy 3:16 says so.
Are you disagreeing with what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 11:30 then?

Where the weakness, sickness and death comes in is when Christians stop availing themselves of the life-giving benefits of God's Word and doing there own thing. Proverbs 3:7-8 4:20-22,
The beloved apostle John specifically spoke of the "sin unto death", which Paul noted in 1 Cor 11:30 and back in 5:5 regarding the incestuous man.

God uses a variety of means and way to discipline (get the attention of) His children. The point from Heb 12:11 is that God's discipline is painful. That's the point.
 
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Doug Melven

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Are you disagreeing with what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 11:30 then?
No, I do not disagree with what Paul wrote. I disagree with people interpreting Paul to say that God uses sickness to chasten His children.

God uses a variety of means and way to discipline (get the attention of) His children. The point from Heb 12:11 is that God's discipline is painful. That's the point.
Is sickness a superior disciplining tool over the Word of God?

If God used sickness and death to discipline then we would have a bunch of sick and prematurely dead Christians.

The fact is we live in a world where sickness and death can strike people, believers and unbelievers alike.
When sickness strikes an unbeliever they have no grace to get them through it.
When sickness strikes a believer it is an opportunity to grow to be more like Christ. It is just another trial.
And according to Romans 5:1-4 and James 1:2-3 we can rejoice in these trials because we know they will work in us endurance and character and hope.

Then if we would examine James 1:13-17 we would see that God never brings trials, He does use them though.
 
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No, I do not disagree with what Paul wrote. I disagree with people interpreting Paul to say that God uses sickness to chasten His children.
Following the Exodus generation in their 40 year "death march" reveals sickness and death as part of God's discipline. i.e., the serpents.

Is sickness a superior disciplining tool over the Word of God?
God's Word itself isn't discipline, so there is no answer to your question. God uses a variety of ways to get the attention of His children.

Why would sickness and weakness not be a part of God's ways and means for discipline?

If God used sickness and death to discipline then we would have a bunch of sick and prematurely dead Christians.
As far as "premature", we just don't know God's timetable at all, so that isn't a legitimate point. As for sick people, there's a lot of sick believers. I'm certainly not claiming that all, or even most sickness is the result of discipline.

The fact is we live in a world where sickness and death can strike people, believers and unbelievers alike.
And death strikes everyone. And the Bible speaks of the "sin unto death" which is about believers, since John was addressing believers in 1 John.
 
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Doug Melven

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Following the Exodus generation in their 40 year "death march" reveals sickness and death as part of God's discipline. i.e., the serpents.
Sickness and death were part of the curse. See Deuteronomy 28. Lots of sickness among other things in that chapter.
Praise be to God we have been redeemed from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:10-13

God's Word itself isn't discipline, so there is no answer to your question. God uses a variety of ways to get the attention of His children.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 says the Word of God is profitable for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be suited to every good work.
The Greek word for instruction is paidea, the same word used for chastening in Hebrews 12.

As far as "premature", we just don't know God's timetable at all, so that isn't a legitimate point.
You seriously think God has a timetable for when we are going to die?
In Psalms 90 Moses said a man's days are 70 years, maybe 80 years. He lived to be 120 years old.

As for sick people, there's a lot of sick believers. I'm certainly not claiming that all, or even most sickness is the result of discipline.[/QUOTE
So how are we to know if sickness is discipline from God?
If God disciplines us with sickness we should not seek to get well as that would get us out of God's will for our lives.
 
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Your darn tooten it teaches eternal security. It is always interesting to watch that none will address the actual biblical exegesis of the CLEAR eternal security verses and passages. They skip over that, and then proceed to pit scripture against scripture. To their loss.........not salvation:amen:, but their rewards and blessings.:(
 
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FreeGrace2

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Sickness and death were part of the curse. See Deuteronomy 28. Lots of sickness among other things in that chapter.
The obvious reading of 1 Cor 11:30 and abuse of the Lord's Table is God's discipline.

Praise be to God we have been redeemed from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:10-13
Amen!

2 Timothy 3:16-17 says the Word of God is profitable for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be suited to every good work.
The Greek word for instruction is paidea, the same word used for chastening in Hebrews 12.
And pain can be very instructive!

You seriously think God has a timetable for when we are going to die?
I certainly believe that God removes people from earth because of behavior "before their time".

Consider Eph 6-
2 “Honor your father and mother”—which is the first commandment with a promise—
3 “so that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.”

iow, those who, by their disobedient lifestyle, and don't honor their parents WON'T enjoy "long life". They will be taken "before their time".

In Psalms 90 Moses said a man's days are 70 years, maybe 80 years. He lived to be 120 years old.
And the point?
 
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Doug Melven

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The obvious reading of 1 Cor 11:30 and abuse of the Lord's Table is God's discipline.


Amen!


And pain can be very instructive!


I certainly believe that God removes people from earth because of behavior "before their time".

Consider Eph 6-
2 “Honor your father and mother”—which is the first commandment with a promise—
3 “so that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.”

iow, those who, by their disobedient lifestyle, and don't honor their parents WON'T enjoy "long life". They will be taken "before their time".


And the point?
Jesus Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. If you read Deuteronomy 28 you can see that sickness for disobedience is part of the curse. Yet you say sickness is part of the New Covenant. I don't understand.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Jesus Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law.
Yes, He did. But He didn't redeem His children from discipline when they rebel.

If you read Deuteronomy 28 you can see that sickness for disobedience is part of the curse.
The "curse of the law" refers to sin. And Christ redeemed us from the curse of sin.

Yet you say sickness is part of the New Covenant. I don't understand.
I didn't say that. Nor did I mean that.

I said God uses weakness, sickness, and physical death as means to get the attention of His children who rebel. And 1 Cor 11:30 is an example of that.
 
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Doug Melven

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I said God uses weakness, sickness, and physical death as means to get the attention of His children who rebel. And 1 Cor 11:30 is an example of that.
Please define "curse of the law"?

To me, it is weakness, sickness and death being used as punishment for sin. Deuteronomy 28 is quite clear on that.
Galatians 3:10-13
3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Verse 10 is straight from Dt 28.
And Christ redeemed us from that curse. So God is not going to punish us with sickness for sin, because He took all of His wrath out on Jesus.

One of the problems I have with your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11:30 is that people are saying that God is disciplining us for sin. But, the only reason they were weak, sickly and some dead was that they were not discerning the Body of Christ in Communion.
So these people say that because God is judging them for this sin, they open the door for God to judge all sins in us.
Now you say it is not punishment, but discipline.
I still say God uses His Word to discipline us. Paidea means to train.
As for sin, it has its own punishment which Christ did not redeem us from. For example if I decide to get drunk every day, it is not God that will give me Cirrhosis of the liver, but the alcohol will.
If I decide to look at inappropriate content, I will become a slave to it, and will have trouble having relationships with women.
God isn't the one causing these things, it is the sin itself.

Romans 5 and 6 have one of my favorite passages.
20 But where sin abounds, grace abounds much more.
21 That as sin has reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 What then shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2. God forbid, how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?

Grace abounds where sin abounds, not judgment or sickness.

People who want to continue in sin are fools.
God wants so much more for His children.
He is God Almighty, He is epitome of Wisdom. He does not need to use sickness to get our attention.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Please define "curse of the law"?
Well, this is from your post #15:
"Jesus Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. If you read Deuteronomy 28 you can see that sickness for disobedience is part of the curse. Yet you say sickness is part of the New Covenant. I don't understand."

My bad for not asking what you meant by the phrase before responding to your phrase.

To me, it is weakness, sickness and death being used as punishment for sin. Deuteronomy 28 is quite clear on that.
OK, so what prevents God from using the same ways and means in the NT?

Galatians 3:10-13
3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Verse 10 is straight from Dt 28.
And Christ redeemed us from that curse. So God is not going to punish us with sickness for sin, because He took all of His wrath out on Jesus.
So it seems there are 2 curses in the Bible?

One of the problems I have with your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11:30 is that people are saying that God is disciplining us for sin.
Please read Hebrews 12 and explain to me how a good parent doesn't discipline their children. It's the bad parents that don't discipline their children and let them run wild.

But, the only reason they were weak, sickly and some dead was that they were not discerning the Body of Christ in Communion.
No, the text tells us that they were abusing the Lord's Table.

But, don't take my word for this. I'll let Paul say it:
17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good.
18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.
19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.
20 So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat,
21 for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk.
22 Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!

The red words clearly explain the vices of that church.

So these people say that because God is judging them for this sin, they open the door for God to judge all sins in us.
I don't know what this means.

Now you say it is not punishment, but discipline.
I still say God uses His Word to discipline us. Paidea means to train.
Please review Hebrews 12. It speaks of training within the context of discipline, which is painful.

As for sin, it has its own punishment which Christ did not redeem us from.
I call this self induced misery. And God may use this to get the idiot's attention. But again, He has many ways and means to get our attention.

For example if I decide to get drunk every day, it is not God that will give me Cirrhosis of the liver, but the alcohol will.
Don't forget all the falling down, etc that comes with it.

btw, if you were addicted to booze, would all that comes with drinking satisfy you?

If I decide to look at inappropriate content, I will become a slave to it, and will have trouble having relationships with women.
God isn't the one causing these things, it is the sin itself.
Are you really not aware that God can ADD to all your misery with discipline of His own?

Romans 5 and 6 have one of my favorite passages.
20 But where sin abounds, grace abounds much more.
21 That as sin has reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 What then shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2. God forbid, how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?
Are you actually suggesting that God doesn't discipline His children?

Grace abounds where sin abounds, not judgment or sickness.

People who want to continue in sin are fools.
God wants so much more for His children.
He is God Almighty, He is epitome of Wisdom. He does not need to use sickness to get our attention.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
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Doug Melven

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OK, so what prevents God from using the same ways and means in the NT?
Because He promised. In Deuteronomy 28 part of the blessing of obedience is that these things will not come upon us. In Christ we are obedient.
Jesus took all of the wrath we deserved, and He made us righteous.
Therefore we are partakers of the promises to Christ through the Gospel. Ephesians 3:6
What Christ should have got because He was righteous, we receive.
What we should have got because we sinned, Christ received.

So it seems there are 2 curses in the Bible?
Yes, 2 curses. One in Genesis 3 and the other in Dt 28 which Paul quotes in Galatians 3:10

Doug said:
One of the problems I have with your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11:30 is that people are saying that God is disciplining us for sin.
Please read Hebrews 12 and explain to me how a good parent doesn't discipline their children. It's the bad parents that don't discipline their children and let them run wild.
That is not what I was talking about.
I was saying people you use this Scripture to say God was disciplining the Corinthians for this sin, then they open that up to make it about all sin. When the Scripture was only saying the weakness, sickness and death was about the irreverence in Communion. They were making a party of it, not discerning the LORD's body.

No, the text tells us that they were abusing the Lord's Table.
1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Doug said:
So these people say that because God is judging them for this sin, they open the door for God to judge all sins in us.
I don't know what this means.
This was only about what was done in communion. Not every other sin we commit.

Please review Hebrews 12. It speaks of training within the context of discipline, which is painful.
Discipline is painful. Nowhere does it say it has to be sickness. That is OT thinking, not NT Gospel.

Are you really not aware that God can ADD to all your misery with discipline of His own?
Absolutely unaware of such a hideous theology.

Are you actually suggesting that God doesn't discipline His children?
No, God does discipline His children, but not for sin.
Sin has been put away by Jesus Christ. John 1:29, Hebrews 9:26
God does not hold our sin against us. Romans 4:6-8, 2 Corinthians 5:17-21

People who don't believe in eternal security will always ask those who do, "what about sin?"
They think our sin separates us from God. But it doesn't because of Jesus Christ and what He did.
Then there are people who believe in eternal security who want to answer this question about sin by saying it doesn't cost us salvation, but God still disciplines/punishes us for our sin.
Or they say it just means our fellowship with God is broken.
To me, they are just different degrees of the same wrong theology.
The theology that says because I have sinned, God is disappointed in me.
God loved me before I became His child, and justified me by His blood, how much more will He save me from His wrath?
For when I was His enemy, He reconciled me to Himself by the death of His Son, how much more will He save me by His life?

God is not in any way disappointed in me, even when I sin. I feel guilty about about my sin, but my fellowship with God is unchanged from His point of view. And that is one that matters.

God does not put sickness on us to train us or discipline us or punish us.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
OK, so what prevents God from using the same ways and means in the NT?
Because He promised. In Deuteronomy 28 part of the blessing of obedience is that these things will not come upon us. In Christ we are obedient.
In my study Bible, the title above Deut 28:1-14 is: "promise of blessings for obedience".
Above v.15-to end of chapter is the title: "promise of curses for disobedience".

This indicates that God promised the JEWS, (not specifically addressed to future NT believers), these promises. When they obeyed, God blessed them. When they rebelled, He disciplined them, including sickness, physical death and loss of nationhood.

Jesus took all of the wrath we deserved, and He made us righteous.
This is totally different, and not related at all. Jesus took God's wrath for the entire human race. Deut 28 is about how His chosen people live their lives; either in obedience or in rebellion.

And that principle continues throughout human history.

Isa 1:18-20
18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Again, directed to Israelites, but the principle applies to ALL of God's children.

Therefore we are partakers of the promises to Christ through the Gospel. Ephesians 3:6
What Christ should have got because He was righteous, we receive.
What we should have got because we sinned, Christ received.
All true and all not relevant to the principle of God's discipline towards His own children.

Doug said:
One of the problems I have with your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11:30 is that people are saying that God is disciplining us for sin.
Because Hebrews 12 says the same thing.

I was saying people you use this Scripture to say God was disciplining the Corinthians for this sin, then they open that up to make it about all sin.
What I am "hearing" from this is that your view is that God doesn't discipline His children for disobedience (sin).

When the Scripture was only saying the weakness, sickness and death was about the irreverence in Communion. They were making a party of it, not discerning the LORD's body.
I gave the relevance context to show that what they were doing was sin.

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
Discipline.

Doug said:
So these people say that because God is judging them for this sin, they open the door for God to judge all sins in us.
Uh, God already opened that door.

This was only about what was done in communion. Not every other sin we commit.
I never said "every sin" results in weakness, sickness or death. The POINT is that God disciplines His children for rebellion and unfaithfulness.

Hebrews is very clear about that.

Discipline is painful. Nowhere does it say it has to be sickness. That is OT thinking, not NT Gospel.
I never ever said anything about "has to be..." anything. I note that 1 Cor 11:30 is an example of God's discipline.

Are you unaware of James 5:16? Sickness is specifically noted, as well as being healed.

No, God does discipline His children, but not for sin.[/QUOTE]
This makes no sense. There is no other reason.

Sin has been put away by Jesus Christ. John 1:29, Hebrews 9:26
God does not hold our sin against us. Romans 4:6-8, 2 Corinthians 5:17-21
This ignores the fact that believers STILL sin, STILL grieve the Holy Spirit, STILL quench the Holy Spirit, STILL fail to be holy and blameless.

You seem confused about our permanent justification and forgiveness based on faith in Christ, and our on-going sin problem.

Why do we need to confess our sins, per 1 John 1:9? Because it affects our fellowship with God and Christ. We need cleansing from our on-going sins.

Jesus had to do a side-bar with Peter in John 13 when He was washing the feet of His disciples, and Peter refused Him. Jesus was demonstrating humility and service to others. But because of Peter's silliness, Jesus had to pause and teach him about fellowship.

6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”
7Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”
8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”
9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”

In v.8 Jesus was speaking of fellowship, partnership, not relationship. Peter was "already clean" (saved)

But Peter, failing to understand this, then asked Jesus for a whole bath, not just his feet.

Jesus' answer in the next verse:
10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”

Obviously, the unclean one (unsaved) was Judas, who was still present when Jesus washed their feet.

People who don't believe in eternal security will always ask those who do, "what about sin?"
They think our sin separates us from God. But it doesn't because of Jesus Christ and what He did.
It does separate us from God in the sense of fellowship.

Can God have fellowship with sin? Of course not. Paul said this:
2 Cor 6:14 - Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

Sin is darkness. Period. Fellowship is broken by sin. Therefore, the need for confession, to be cleansed from sin and fellowship restored.

Then there are people who believe in eternal security who want to answer this question about sin by saying it doesn't cost us salvation, but God still disciplines/punishes us for our sin.
This is biblical.

Or they say it just means our fellowship with God is broken.
"just" means???? Please don't denigrate the significance of broken fellowship with God.

Jesus' point in John 15 about abiding is about fellowship. When out of fellowship (not abiding), the believer cannot bear fruit. They are unusable for God's purpose for them, and they will be cast off (not loss of salvation, but set aside).

To me, they are just different degrees of the same wrong theology.
The theology that says because I have sinned, God is disappointed in me.
God has standards. And he is omniscient. So He has always knows everything you will ever do. So He can't be "disappointed". If that were true, He'd be like us, who are not omniscient.

But He promises blessings and "cursing" (discipline) towards His own people (Israel in OT and believers in NT) for obedience and rebellion.

God loved me before I became His child, and justified me by His blood, how much more will He save me from His wrath?
Irrelevant to the discussion of discipline. God loves the whole world, which is why He gave His Son for everyone.

For when I was His enemy, He reconciled me to Himself by the death of His Son, how much more will He save me by His life?
You are saved solely by faith in Christ.

God is not in any way disappointed in me, even when I sin.
Certainly He already knows exactly when and where you sin.

I feel guilty about about my sin, but my fellowship with God is unchanged from His point of view. And that is one that matters.
You don't understand 1 John 1 then.

God does not put sickness on us to train us or discipline us or punish us.
So then, your view of our Heavenly Father is to let His children "go their own way" whatever that may be, and He does nothing about it.

Well, the Bible does teach discipline from our Heavenly Father.

You should study Hebrews 12 very carefully.
 
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