Predestination

sdowney717

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The book of life was written before creation. So everyone who is victorious are basically saved since creation. God foresaw who would be victorious and who would not. This doesn’t mean that He chose who is saved and who will burn. He simply foresaw the choices we would make.

I view it more from the positive side, all would have been burned in hell fire because all have sinned, but God chose to have mercy on some and not be lost. Paul also uses the OT verse about God reserving for Himself the 7000 men to be preserved in Him. Romans 11, is not just about Israel, God does not cast away His people whom He has foreknown. And that includes all Christians today, he has foreknown them and arranged their lives positively for their good. v7, the elect obtain salvation, while the others remain blinded. The elect are what they are by the grace of God alone.

Romans 11 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

And Romans 8 says,
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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No free will=God does everything=God is the author and perpetrator of all sin.
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably,nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, b all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

here is the teaching..take it line by line and show where you do not agree....no bible believing Calvinist believes God sins at all.Not possible...but you will post it 10 more times,:doh::doh::help::scratch:
 
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Loren T.

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Can you demonstrate any of your claims in scripture? You make statements with no support, You do not offer the position as people hold to it...
You mean the claim that God doesn't move in irresistable ways? (your word, not ours, it's right there in TULIP) Sure, I could quote a few dozen verses like:


Isaiah 63:10

But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.

Ephesians 4:30-31
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

Acts 7:51

"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Genesis 6:3

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

Any one of these is sufficient for any person who is willing to listen to understand that God allows room for free will.
In fact, no one can live as if everything is determined. Do you look both ways before you cross the street? Do you lock your doors?
Your theology is self contradicting. You don't even believe it, if you really take it to it's logical conclusion.
 
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Loren T.

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Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably,nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, b all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

here is the teaching..take it line by line and show where you do not agree....no bible believing Calvinist believes God sins at all.Not possible...but you will post it 10 more times,:doh::doh::help::scratch:

Yeah, heard it a hundred times. Second causes-really? What's the difference how many bricks are in the row that I push onto your head to kill you? If I push them, I'm still to blame. The whole statement defies logic. If God decrees all things, which means he is the ultimate cause of all things, then he is to blame for all evil.
 
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Loren T.

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he was a nice guy.... likable but sadly mistaken because of carnal philosophy
Well, according to your own theology, obviously God predestined Flowers to have "canal philosophy" then. Who are you, Oh man, to talk back to God?
 
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sdowney717

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Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably,nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, b all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

here is the teaching..take it line by line and show where you do not agree....no bible believing Calvinist believes God sins at all.Not possible...but you will post it 10 more times,:doh::doh::help::scratch:

God kills and it is not sin, whatever God does is not sin, God cannot sin, sin is disobedience to God. God does whatever He wishes and no one can say to Him what the **** are you doing. God is a free agent. God chooses to do what He wishes with His creation, He can do what he wants with His own things.

Isaiah 46

8 “Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Loren T

[You mean the claim that God doesn't move in irresistable ways? (your word, not ours, it's right there in TULIP) Sure, I could quote a few dozen verses like:]

you are misusing the term...what do you mean exactly....move in irrestable ways?
Every elect person will be saved, not one more, not one less.

People can and do resist God's grace...those who remain in that condidtion are called, unbelievers, tares, reprobates,
What you still do not grasp evidently is......unbelievers are not the object of effectual calling, or irrestable grace. Only the elect have this saving grace extended to them
look here;
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

These men resisted God's grace....unto death....not irresistible grace here.....get it? they resisted.....so it could not be spoken of as irresistible.
:idea::idea::|:idea::idea::scratch::scratch:


46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

These were effectually called...it was irresistible....why??? it was not ultimately resisted:clap::ebil::wave:



[Isaiah 63:10

But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.]
yes...goats

[Ephesians 4:30-31
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.]
Sin and disobedience grieve God....this is off topic.
[Acts 7:51

"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.]

yes....these men were reprobates, like their unsaved fathers, read psalm 78...they do always resist God's grace and will go into second death.
Genesis 6:3

[Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."]
yes...reprobates...none of them got to ride in the Ark....

[Any one of these is sufficient for any person who is willing to listen to understand that God allows room for free will.]

Free will is a myth...none of these verses says anything about "free will"...it shows self will which leads to death everytime.


In fact, no one can live as if everything is determined. Do you look both ways before you cross the street? Do you lock your doors?
[Your theology is self contradicting. You don't even believe it, if you really take it to it's logical conclusion.]
My statements are biblically based...not using logic or carnal reasoning.:wave:
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Yeah, heard it a hundred times. Second causes-really? What's the difference how many bricks are in the row that I push onto your head to kill you? If I push them, I'm still to blame. The whole statement defies logic. If God decrees all things, which means he is the ultimate cause of all things, then he is to blame for all evil.
Not at all....I do not do philosophy, but I think you are trying so...

God never forces a free moral agent to sin...never.They sin because they love to sin.
No rebel sinner wakes up planning to do good...but then God forces him to sin....not once.
God allowed satan to afflict Job....but not his life....God still had satan on a leash...like a dog...

here is what you have no answer for.....there is nothing that exists outside of God's control. nothing...not one molecule... but i use scripture not philosophy, Gen50
20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Well, according to your own theology, obviously God predestined Flowers to have "canal philosophy" then. Who are you, Oh man, to talk back to God?
I would like to think that Leighton will be saved...I cannot see his heart....But once again.....predestination is used of believers....being conformed to the image of the Son...not of the evil acts of wicked or deceived persons... I am hopeful to speak to Leighton face to face after dealing with him online over the years...
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Actually, I have discussed this extensively with Calvinists, but your right, no matter how many times they explain it makes no sense, because it's self contradicting. You are just doing what they all do, saying if you don't believe it, you're just too dumb to understand it. Yawn.
did you listen to the sermon I posted for you to listen to?
 
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BNR32FAN

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No...God is not a mere spectator. He has a plan and purpose and foreknows whom he intends to save out of fallen mankind.
he knows them as persons...he elects them, then He saves them.

There are a several problems with that interpretation. First God’s elect cannot be true without eternal security. God couldn’t elect someone who would fall from grace correct? Can you please explain John 15:1-8?

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-8‬

This is undeniable proof that a believer can fall from grace. How can God’s elect be in danger of being cut off from Jesus, tossed away, and burned? Next problem with God’s elect is 2 Peter 3:9 and 2 Timothy 2:3-4.

“The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬

“This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬

And of course John 3:16-17

““For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16-17‬

Not only does God love the world He also sent Jesus to save the world.

God desires our love and fellowship. That’s why we’re here. To mold us and to separate those who will love God from those who love evil. Love is a gift given freely. You can’t force or preprogram love because the person had no choice. If God was going to program us to love Him there’s no point in us being here. God’s election also makes God responsible for everyone who will burn which contradicts John 3:16-17 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:3-4.

Another problem is the people who God chose often rebelled against God. King David and Jonah are two prime examples of this. It was by their choice that they rebelled. The Bible is full of passages urging us to make the right choice. If we have no choice there is no need for the Bible, Jesus’ ministry, the apostles, or the church. Why spread the word to people who are not chosen and why spread the word to those who are chosen if they have no choice?
 
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BNR32FAN

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I view it more from the positive side, all would have been burned in hell fire because all have sinned, but God chose to have mercy on some and not be lost. Paul also uses the OT verse about God reserving for Himself the 7000 men to be preserved in Him. Romans 11, is not just about Israel, God does not cast away His people whom He has foreknown. And that includes all Christians today, he has foreknown them and arranged their lives positively for their good. v7, the elect obtain salvation, while the others remain blinded. The elect are what they are by the grace of God alone.

Romans 11 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

And Romans 8 says,
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The Greek word for predestined also means preordained which means He selected us before we were victorious because He foresaw who would be victorious. God’s elect means that those who will burn are innocent because they never had a choice or a chance for salvation. Please read post#212
 
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Loren T.

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God kills and it is not sin, whatever God does is not sin, God cannot sin, sin is disobedience to God. God does whatever He wishes and no one can say to Him what the **** are you doing. God is a free agent. God chooses to do what He wishes with His creation, He can do what he wants with His own things.

Isaiah 46

8 “Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

Oh, so God has free will? Because I've been told by Calvinists that he doesn't. Of course, God can do what he wants, but you're still not getting it, not even close. I'm not talking about God's righteous judgement. If your philosophy is correct, then God decrees every sin ever committed, starting in the garden of Eden. Your version of God causes man's every disobedience action. Your system always has God holding one hand behind his back, which conceals the truth that he is the only sinner, while he tells men not to sin. He commands obedience, then compels men to disobedience, and finally, sends men to hell for the disobedience that he caused. He selects certain men for hell, while selecting others for glory, for no discernable reason. John Piper says we should be glad to see that there are people in hell just like us? What? A thousand times no! We should be grieved to the core that people just like us are going to hell. Instead, individual election creates this kind of attitude that say: "God chose me. I'm special. My children will go to heaven because I'm a believer." It's arrogance and utter nonsense.

For probably 30 years I read the Bible, without any real knowledge of what Calvinism or Arminianism were. Never did I find determinism there. Just the opposite. From the very beginning, the story is one of man's rebellion and God's response and God being grieved and angry at man's sin, not decreeing that men disobey him. The idea that God moves all the pieces on the playing board without allowing men to make free choices is grounded in Aristotle's philosophy, not in a thorough reading of the scripture.
"(Ancient Greek: ὃ οὐ κινούμενον κινεῖ, translit. ... 'that which moves without being moved') or prime mover (Latin: primum movens) is a concept advanced by Aristotle as a primary cause or "mover" of all the motion in the universe."
 
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Bobber

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I would have abandoned my “Calvinist” church long ago if it wasn’t for the sincerity and authenticity I see as God working in their lives. This has been my experience with the Calvinists I know in person. (Perhaps they only become arrogant and condescending online.)
As for me I believe God for sure does work in many Calvinists lives and non Calvinists as well. I don't believe this is really a salvation issue if a person is believing in the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ for us at the cross and his being raised for us for our justification, and faith in the precious blood of Jesus to blot our sins, and making us a new creature in Christ.

I do believe however stanch Calvinsits/Reformed types do hinder the gospel when they advocate publicly in too vocal way their other beliefs outside of the essentials. (although if you read from the stanch on here they pretty much leave the impression that what they say IS ESSENTIAL) I'd suggest many of them when talking to the lost don't go into talking about God chooses some to be saved and others not as they know that'd be an absolute turn off. But later the indoctrination begins and even with that many don't focus much on doctrines but a simple love of Jesus and being a part of a community of people where they can receive support or be a support to others and all those are good things. I've got friends that way...go to Calvinists places but could care less about those doctrines.

I do like to believe if one links on to the basic essentials of the faith God links on to you and here's the important part...He's NOT trying to keep people out of heaven but trying to get as many people in thus you do see people who have had experiences with God among them. Why not. He loves them as he does all men.

To me though what one hears in the next world, even if you make heaven your home but to hear from the Lord you know the most important thing I came to the earth to do you really hindered my message, that is God came to save all men as in 100 % of people on the planet. For him to say there was no real justifiable reason for you to believe so you gave people a false impression of my character....not something I'd like on my consciousness throughout eternity, even if I did make heaven my home.
 
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There are a several problems with that interpretation. First God’s elect cannot be true without eternal security. God couldn’t elect someone who would fall from grace correct? Can you please explain John 15:1-8?

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-8‬

This is undeniable proof that a believer can fall from grace. How can God’s elect be in danger of being cut off from Jesus, tossed away, and burned?

"If a man abide not in me,.... Christ does not say, "if ye abide not in me"; he would not suppose this of his true disciples; Judas now being removed, to whom he may have some respect in this verse; though it may be applied to anyone who has made a profession of Christ, and denies the truths of the Gospel, neglects the ordinances of it, or walks unworthy of his profession: of whom the following things may be truly said,

he is cast forth as a branch; that is unfruitful, and is therefore taken away from the vine, and cast forth out of the vineyard. This signifies the ejection of worthless and fruitless professors out of the churches; for such who are either unsound in their principles, or are remiss and negligent in their attendance on the worship of God, with the church, or are loose and vain in their lives and conversations, are to be removed from communion with the people of God.

And is withered. Some versions, as the Arabic, Syriac, and Persic, read this as an epithet of the word "branch", thus; "the branch that is withered"; expressing the condition the branch is in before it is cast forth out of the vineyard, and the reason of its being cast forth: but others read it as a new and distinct predicate of the branch, showing the case it is in, immediately upon its being cast forth: it may be cut off, and cast out with its leaves upon it, though without fruit; but as soon as ever it is ejected, it withers away. So mere external professors of religion, when they are cast out, of the communion of the church, presently the leaf of profession, which once seemed green, decays, loses its verdure, and that seeming fruit which grew upon them shrinks to nothing, and they become "trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit", Jude 1:12: their show of life, zeal, religion, and holiness, disappears, and all their external gifts, light, knowledge, and understanding, even in a speculative way, vanish:

and men gather them; or, as some copies have it, αυτο, "it", which best agrees with the word "branch". This was a common thing, when branches were thrown out of a vineyard, for men to come and gather them up for an use hereafter mentioned. So when unworthy members are put out of a church of Christ, the men of the world gather them into their society: or they are taken into the congregations of false teachers, who being sensual, and without the Spirit, separate themselves; or it may be read impersonally, "they are gathered", or "it is gathered": so wicked men, and Christless professors, will be gathered by the angels at the last day, and severed by them from the righteous, whom they will place at Christ's left hand to receive their awful doom:

and cast them, or "it",

into the fire, and they are burned, or "it is burned"; for nothing else is such a branch good for; see Eze 15:2. This may respect either the gnawings of conscience, that distress of mind, if not despair, that fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation, which attend apostates in this life; or their being cast into the everlasting burnings of hell fire by angels at the last day, as will be the case of every unfruitful tree, of the chaff and tares." - John Gill

"I detain the Reader to remark to him, that the second verse should be read, as the original will truly allow; Every branch that beareth not fruit in me. For there can be no Branch, really, and truly in Christ, but what must bear fruit. But there may be many, that appear as branches in the Lord's garden the Church; and yet have no union with him. So that what fruit soever they bear, it is not in Christ, neither from Christ; and therefore their root is in themselves, and shall be, as rottenness, and their blossom go up as the dust. Isa 5:24; Deu 32:32. Whereas the true branches, in the true Vine, derive all from the Vine. Every portion of life, and fruitfulness, come from Christ. From me (the Lord saith,) is thy fruit found. Hos 14:8. Reader! be very jealous over your own heart, on these grand points. See to it, that not only in the first grafting upon Christ, when taken from the old olive tree, which is wild by nature, thou art grafted contrary to nature, (being wholly an act of free sovereign grace in God, and nothing of man concurring with it,) into this true Olive Tree, Christ Jesus; but in all the after actings of life, see to it that it is all upon Christ, and all from Christ. Grace is no self acting principle. All our fresh springs are in Him. Of his fulness do we all receive, and grace for grace; meaning, that we need daily, yea momently, grace from Jesus, to act upon and keep alive, the grace we have before had from Jesus. Christ is all. Rom 11:24; Psa 87:7; Joh 1:16." - The Poor Man's Commentary

"If any one abide not in me, he is cast forth as the branch perhaps away from the vineyard, as well as from proximity to the vineand is withered. The two aorists, eblhyh and exhranyh , are simply cases of a common daily experience. These are the inevitable consequences of not abiding in the Vine. We may imagine two ways in which this non-abiding in Christ, this severance from him, may be effected:

(1) the pruning-knife may have lopped them off because of their lack of fruitfulness; or,

(2) they may have withered on the stem, and, by their deficiency of strength and life, have suffered from some external assault which they have not had energy to resist. Lucke, Winer, Tholuck, and Hengstenberg regard the aorists as indicative of what will happen should branches in Christ cease to derive limb from him. Calvin is satisfied that the expression cannot refer to the elect, but to the hypocrite, while Alford is as confident of its repudiation of unconditional election. In my opinion it keeps clear of both suggestions. And they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. The vine is one of the noblest of all trees, and produces the most abundant fruit; but it is one of its peculiarities that all its strength is spent on the fruit, and that its branches are utterly valueless for all other purposes. Heaps of burning vine-prunings may have suggested the awful image which the embodied Love of God here adopts. Some have supposed (Meyer and Alford) that the fire is here the last judgment, which our Lord looks upon as come. But the present tense, following the two aorists, suggests the immediate consequence of such severance from Christ the fiery trials, the fierce temptations, the terrible judgments, always overtaking the unfruitful and unfaithful servants, and preluding the awful consummation of Divine judgment, of which our Lord had often spoken, (Mat 13:42, 50 25:41 Luk 16:24) and which the apostle of love described in Rev 20:15 Rev 21:8." The Pulpit Commentary
 
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BNR32FAN

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"If a man abide not in me,.... Christ does not say, "if ye abide not in me"; he would not suppose this of his true disciples; Judas now being removed, to whom he may have some respect in this verse; though it may be applied to anyone who has made a profession of Christ, and denies the truths of the Gospel, neglects the ordinances of it, or walks unworthy of his profession: of whom the following things may be truly said,

he is cast forth as a branch; that is unfruitful, and is therefore taken away from the vine, and cast forth out of the vineyard. This signifies the ejection of worthless and fruitless professors out of the churches; for such who are either unsound in their principles, or are remiss and negligent in their attendance on the worship of God, with the church, or are loose and vain in their lives and conversations, are to be removed from communion with the people of God.

And is withered. Some versions, as the Arabic, Syriac, and Persic, read this as an epithet of the word "branch", thus; "the branch that is withered"; expressing the condition the branch is in before it is cast forth out of the vineyard, and the reason of its being cast forth: but others read it as a new and distinct predicate of the branch, showing the case it is in, immediately upon its being cast forth: it may be cut off, and cast out with its leaves upon it, though without fruit; but as soon as ever it is ejected, it withers away. So mere external professors of religion, when they are cast out, of the communion of the church, presently the leaf of profession, which once seemed green, decays, loses its verdure, and that seeming fruit which grew upon them shrinks to nothing, and they become "trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit", Jude 1:12: their show of life, zeal, religion, and holiness, disappears, and all their external gifts, light, knowledge, and understanding, even in a speculative way, vanish:

and men gather them; or, as some copies have it, αυτο, "it", which best agrees with the word "branch". This was a common thing, when branches were thrown out of a vineyard, for men to come and gather them up for an use hereafter mentioned. So when unworthy members are put out of a church of Christ, the men of the world gather them into their society: or they are taken into the congregations of false teachers, who being sensual, and without the Spirit, separate themselves; or it may be read impersonally, "they are gathered", or "it is gathered": so wicked men, and Christless professors, will be gathered by the angels at the last day, and severed by them from the righteous, whom they will place at Christ's left hand to receive their awful doom:

and cast them, or "it",

into the fire, and they are burned, or "it is burned"; for nothing else is such a branch good for; see Eze 15:2. This may respect either the gnawings of conscience, that distress of mind, if not despair, that fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation, which attend apostates in this life; or their being cast into the everlasting burnings of hell fire by angels at the last day, as will be the case of every unfruitful tree, of the chaff and tares." - John Gill

"I detain the Reader to remark to him, that the second verse should be read, as the original will truly allow; Every branch that beareth not fruit in me. For there can be no Branch, really, and truly in Christ, but what must bear fruit. But there may be many, that appear as branches in the Lord's garden the Church; and yet have no union with him. So that what fruit soever they bear, it is not in Christ, neither from Christ; and therefore their root is in themselves, and shall be, as rottenness, and their blossom go up as the dust. Isa 5:24; Deu 32:32. Whereas the true branches, in the true Vine, derive all from the Vine. Every portion of life, and fruitfulness, come from Christ. From me (the Lord saith,) is thy fruit found. Hos 14:8. Reader! be very jealous over your own heart, on these grand points. See to it, that not only in the first grafting upon Christ, when taken from the old olive tree, which is wild by nature, thou art grafted contrary to nature, (being wholly an act of free sovereign grace in God, and nothing of man concurring with it,) into this true Olive Tree, Christ Jesus; but in all the after actings of life, see to it that it is all upon Christ, and all from Christ. Grace is no self acting principle. All our fresh springs are in Him. Of his fulness do we all receive, and grace for grace; meaning, that we need daily, yea momently, grace from Jesus, to act upon and keep alive, the grace we have before had from Jesus. Christ is all. Rom 11:24; Psa 87:7; Joh 1:16." - The Poor Man's Commentary

"If any one abide not in me, he is cast forth as the branch perhaps away from the vineyard, as well as from proximity to the vineand is withered. The two aorists, eblhyh and exhranyh , are simply cases of a common daily experience. These are the inevitable consequences of not abiding in the Vine. We may imagine two ways in which this non-abiding in Christ, this severance from him, may be effected:

(1) the pruning-knife may have lopped them off because of their lack of fruitfulness; or,

(2) they may have withered on the stem, and, by their deficiency of strength and life, have suffered from some external assault which they have not had energy to resist. Lucke, Winer, Tholuck, and Hengstenberg regard the aorists as indicative of what will happen should branches in Christ cease to derive limb from him. Calvin is satisfied that the expression cannot refer to the elect, but to the hypocrite, while Alford is as confident of its repudiation of unconditional election. In my opinion it keeps clear of both suggestions. And they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. The vine is one of the noblest of all trees, and produces the most abundant fruit; but it is one of its peculiarities that all its strength is spent on the fruit, and that its branches are utterly valueless for all other purposes. Heaps of burning vine-prunings may have suggested the awful image which the embodied Love of God here adopts. Some have supposed (Meyer and Alford) that the fire is here the last judgment, which our Lord looks upon as come. But the present tense, following the two aorists, suggests the immediate consequence of such severance from Christ the fiery trials, the fierce temptations, the terrible judgments, always overtaking the unfruitful and unfaithful servants, and preluding the awful consummation of Divine judgment, of which our Lord had often spoken, (Mat 13:42, 50 25:41 Luk 16:24) and which the apostle of love described in Rev 20:15 Rev 21:8." The Pulpit Commentary

Jesus is speaking directly to His apostles in John 15:1-8. He is warning them. He told them remain in me and I will remain in you.

John 15:4

4 remain in me, and I in you, as the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, if it may not remain in the vine, so neither ye, if ye may not remain in me.

Spoken directly to His apostles. The last 8 words in verse 4 are. So neither you unless not in me abide. G3779 G3761 G4771 G1437 G3361 G1722 G1473 G3306.

I’m sorry my friend but God’s elect and eternal security are false teachings.
 
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Jesus is speaking directly to His apostles in John 15:1-8. He is warning them. He told them remain in me and I will remain in you.

John 15:4

4 remain in me, and I in you, as the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, if it may not remain in the vine, so neither ye, if ye may not remain in me.

Spoken directly to His apostles. The last 8 words in verse 4 are. So neither you unless not in me abide. G3779 G3761 G4771 G1437 G3361 G1722 G1473 G3306.

I’m sorry my friend but God’s elect and eternal security are false teachings.

Verse 16 states: "16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

Verse 5 states: "5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."


Now the verse which your supposition hinges: verse "6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."

First the word "if" suggests uncertainty, "anyone" suggests a broader audience, and "does not abide" based on the surrounding context suggests those who do not abide, are not in Him, and were not in Him, for if they were, they could do something, they would bear fruit, by divine appointment, because He chose them for works prepared before the foundation of the world.

The problem is you assume an autonomous perseverance where the Scriptures state a theonomous perseverance.
 
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Loren T.

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"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.]
See this is a good illustration of the weirdness of your philosophy. Here, we have Stephen explaining to the Jews about how they rebelled against God over and over again and how they were still doing so.

9 “But our ancestors refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

But, to read this through your Calvinist lenses, you have to believe that the only reason they rebelled is because God decreed their rebellion, and in fact, decreed that they were all destined for destruction from birth. So, what is Stephen angry about? He should be glorifying God because the Jews did just what God caused them to do. You should have a celebration when an unsaved relative dies. Because, that person, if you are consistent with your philosophy, was born reprobate and finally went to hell, all for God's glory.
 
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Verse 16 states: "16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

Verse 5 states: "5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."


Now the verse which your supposition hinges: verse "6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."

First the word "if" suggests uncertainty, "anyone" suggests a broader audience, and "does not abide" based on the surrounding context suggests those who do not abide, are not in Him, and were not in Him, for if they were, they could do something, they would bear fruit, by divine appointment, because He chose them for works prepared before the foundation of the world.

The problem is you assume an autonomous perseverance where the Scriptures state a theonomous perseverance.

Yep no doubt Jesus chose the apostles. He chose Judas to but Judas didn’t abide in Him. Or do you believe Judas chose Jesus?
 
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